I'm looking for some advice whether I was too onservative here:

I recenly flew a VFR flight from Billings, MT to Bozeman, MT. About
40 miles east of Bozeman I decided that I needed to delare IFR and
filed for an Ifr clearance into BZN in order to descend through a 2500
ft cloud layer. I got the clearance into BZN, and landed without
incident.

Later that evening I went to the plane (C172/180) to return to BIL
and found a very thin layer of ice (about 5 or 6 pages of paper thick)
on all the leading edges of my plane. It was dark, about 10pm, and I
elected to stay the night. The night was patchy clouds, but mostly
clear. I had to clear a 9000 foot ridge from a 4500 foot airport,
which the plane was easily capable of doing in normal circumstances.

The ice, and slight frost, on the airplane caused me stay. As I have
never really tried to fly with a slight layer of frost or ice, I
stayed; but I wonder if I was too cautious. It would have been very
convenient for me and my passengers to go. Here's my question: just
how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have
sublimated on climb out?

What is "too cautious"?
You were correct;
Blue skies.

H.

H. Adam Stevens
CPA S&MEL IA
solo 1967


"smackey" > wrote in message
m...
> I'm looking for some advice whether I was too onservative here:
>
> I recenly flew a VFR flight from Billings, MT to Bozeman, MT. About
> 40 miles east of Bozeman I decided that I needed to delare IFR and
> filed for an Ifr clearance into BZN in order to descend through a 2500
> ft cloud layer. I got the clearance into BZN, and landed without
> incident.
>
> Later that evening I went to the plane (C172/180) to return to BIL
> and found a very thin layer of ice (about 5 or 6 pages of paper thick)
> on all the leading edges of my plane. It was dark, about 10pm, and I
> elected to stay the night. The night was patchy clouds, but mostly
> clear. I had to clear a 9000 foot ridge from a 4500 foot airport,
> which the plane was easily capable of doing in normal circumstances.
>
> The ice, and slight frost, on the airplane caused me stay. As I have
> never really tried to fly with a slight layer of frost or ice, I
> stayed; but I wonder if I was too cautious. It would have been very
> convenient for me and my passengers to go. Here's my question: just
> how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have
> sublimated on climb out?

"smackey" > wrote in message
m
>
> I'm looking for some advice whether I was too conservative here:

I agree with Adam Stevens on this one. "Conservative" is a relative term.
Make the safety decisions that make you comfortable. Nobody else can make
those for you.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

> Would the ice/frost probably have
> sublimated on climb out?

you would have looked pretty dumb if it hadn't :)
There is only one choice - and that is the safe one.

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

You did the right thing to stay for better conditions. You could have gone,
and with a lowered probability been just fine. But your risk level would
have increased, and everything one does in aviation should be to reduce the
risk level. Especially when still on the ground where the decision is easy
and convenient to make.

Ice takes quite some time to sublimate and can not be counted on as a risk
reducer. A thin layer can last for hours.

Karl
ATP ETC

On 25 Dec 2003 18:23:01 -0800, (smackey) wrote:

>Here's my question: just how much ice/frost is too much?

Although some talk about polishing it smooth, any amount will change your
air foil and decrease your lift. How much of a test pilot do you want to
be?

>Would the ice/frost probably have sublimated on climb out?

Maybe in the post-crash fire?

----------------

I would have either gotten the frost/ice off the a/c, or stayed the night.

RMOAS of a fellow who has a Bonanza. He had a barely visible line of snow
on the leading edge of the wing. It did NOT blow off during the takeoff
roll, and he barely made it off the ground. He was able to successfully
return to the airport, but it made for one of those "never again" stories.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

> never really tried to fly with a slight layer of frost or ice, I
> stayed; but I wonder if I was too cautious.

Never...you did the right thing

>It would have been very convenient for me and my passengers to go.

It wouldn't have been so convenient to become a landmark in the side of a
mountain....

>Here's my question: just
> how much ice/frost is too much?

Any ice/frost is too much unless you want to be considered a test-pilot.
The challenge here is at what point do you call "uncle"... A little frost
probably would not be of great concern...but how about some frost and a
little ice....the ice is smooth, clear and only on the leading edges....etc
etc etc

In my opinion this could have been a recipe for disaster. You were in a
hurry to get home...at night...in the mountains...with airframe ice. Most
accidents are a series of events and/or poor decisions. Deep down you knew
the right answer, and heeded the caution your gut was telling you.... Your
passengers owe you a debt of gratitude.

smackey wrote:
> I'm looking for some advice whether I was too onservative here:
>
> I recenly flew a VFR flight from Billings, MT to Bozeman, MT. About
> 40 miles east of Bozeman I decided that I needed to delare IFR and
> filed for an Ifr clearance into BZN in order to descend through a 2500
> ft cloud layer. I got the clearance into BZN, and landed without
> incident.
>
> Later that evening I went to the plane (C172/180) to return to BIL

Would that have been the old "Lynch 145"? If so that was one of my
favorite 172's. Lots of power.

Even small amounts of frost can dramatically increase drag while reducing
lift. The comments about test pilot aside, there is no way that frost is
going to improve the performance of your airplane. At the very least you
will need more runway, have a reduced payload, climb more slowly, and have
your weight and balance thrown out of kilter. Your margin for error is
greatly reduced.

Now, add to that the factors of night, that ridge, possibly being tired at
the end of the day. I would hope that under the same circumstances I would
have the presence of mind to make the same decision you did.

Night with frost......no way. Safer to stay. You could wash it off with
prestone to clean the wing, but adding night into the equation is adding more
risk. If you did launch, be sure to think return options through the climb
out, that is if things weren't performing well, it would be time to return to
departure airport.
VL

I, fly / have flown, the Great Lakes ice machine my entire life... Ice and
frost are a way of life here and you learn to make good decisions or you
become an item in the newspaper...

Given your circumstances - night - innocent passengers - high altitude -
rising terrain - VISIBLE ice/frost on the wings <check the far/aim on
this> - you made exactly the right decision... And if you keep making the
same decision in the same circumstances you will be around to lecture the
next generation of pilots on the topic...

Forget the guys saying you coulda/shoulda have tried it cuz you coulda
returned to the airport if things weren't working out - that attitude is
likely to buy them a smoking hole in the ground...

General aviation averages 5 crashes a day, and a death almost every day...
(1820 crashes / 360 deaths - yr. 2002) and 98% of those crashes are
directly traceable to bad decisions - flying into bad wx - flying with a
known engine problem - running out of fuel - attempting takeoff with frost
on wings - etc...

Denny

"smackey" > wrote in message

I think you did the right thing. I sure wouldn't attempt to guess "how much
is too much".


> Here's my question: just
> how much ice/frost is too much?

In article >, smackey wrote:
> convenient for me and my passengers to go. Here's my question: just
> how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have

Any frost is too much. Frost is especially bad - it spoils lift and
increases drag, so it counts against you twice.

The FARs specifically prohibit taking off with frost on any of the
lifting surfaces. The laws of physics often do, too.

smackey ) wrote:

> Here's my question: just
> how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have
> sublimated on climb out?

I am certainly no expert, but in the last year or so of my instrument
rating I have encountered two situations where I have landed at night in
very cold, but apparently moist air and watched the aircraft completely
frost over as I performed a preflight to depart.

In both cases, I concluded I only had two options: Stay the night or pay a
line crew to deice the aircraft for me. Fortunately, both times a line
crew was available with the proper deice equipment. Had they not been, I
would have used my credit card... to get a room. :)

Joking aside, I have learned that a credit card does work as a makeshift
deicer, assuming there is not much ice to remove. In another example, I
was taxiing at night this winter when I hit a pothole in a runway. The
wheel broke through the ice that covered a puddle and I heard the sound of
splashing water.

I parked the aircraft to pick up a passenger. During the preflight, I
discovered that the water had splashed up and covered my left horizontal
stabilizer and elevator (in a C172). Due to the cold air, the water
turned to ice. The airport's only FBO was closed.

There was no way I was going to take off at night with that ice, so I
yanked out an American Express card and began scraping. It took
approximately 15 minutes, but I was successful in completely removing the
ice.


--
Peter












----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

You made a good decision. Anything beyond the thickness of a piece of
tissue paper can disrupt airflow. The fact that frost formed rather
quickly says that the sublimation rate was much larger than the
formation rate at that time of night.
Paul

It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation takes a long
time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with RV-type
antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.

Mike
MU-2


"smackey" > wrote in message
m...
> I'm looking for some advice whether I was too onservative here:
>
> I recenly flew a VFR flight from Billings, MT to Bozeman, MT. About
> 40 miles east of Bozeman I decided that I needed to delare IFR and
> filed for an Ifr clearance into BZN in order to descend through a 2500
> ft cloud layer. I got the clearance into BZN, and landed without
> incident.
>
> Later that evening I went to the plane (C172/180) to return to BIL
> and found a very thin layer of ice (about 5 or 6 pages of paper thick)
> on all the leading edges of my plane. It was dark, about 10pm, and I
> elected to stay the night. The night was patchy clouds, but mostly
> clear. I had to clear a 9000 foot ridge from a 4500 foot airport,
> which the plane was easily capable of doing in normal circumstances.
>
> The ice, and slight frost, on the airplane caused me stay. As I have
> never really tried to fly with a slight layer of frost or ice, I
> stayed; but I wonder if I was too cautious. It would have been very
> convenient for me and my passengers to go. Here's my question: just
> how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have
> sublimated on climb out?

Right decision indeed.

I no longer have to fight the stuff for 6 months of the year so I'm a bit
spoiled here in NC. But having flown in the Bozeman valley, I can't
imagine flying a light SEL at night with anything contraindicating flight.
Heck, I can't take my eyes off those mountains during the day!

Good stuff.

smackey wrote:
>
> Here's my question: just how much ice/frost is too much?

Any at all.

> Would the ice/frost probably have sublimated on climb out?

What makes you think you would have left the ground?

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Newps > wrote in message news:<YBOGb.202440$_M.905032@attbi_s54>...

> Would that have been the old "Lynch 145"? If so that was one of my
> favorite 172's. Lots of power.

Nope. Bought mine in AZ in 1999.

Steve M
N739AJ

I agree wholeheartedly with the advice you have been given by others, but I
want to add something: Part 135 pilots are prohibited from taking off an
aircraft "...that has frost, ice, or snow adhering to any rotor blade,
propeller, windshield, wing, stabilizing or control surface...." although
provision is made for polishing frost to make it smooth. If paying
passengers deserve this level of care, surely your non-paying friends also
deserve it.

Bob Gardner

"smackey" > wrote in message
m...
> I'm looking for some advice whether I was too onservative here:
>
> I recenly flew a VFR flight from Billings, MT to Bozeman, MT. About
> 40 miles east of Bozeman I decided that I needed to delare IFR and
> filed for an Ifr clearance into BZN in order to descend through a 2500
> ft cloud layer. I got the clearance into BZN, and landed without
> incident.
>
> Later that evening I went to the plane (C172/180) to return to BIL
> and found a very thin layer of ice (about 5 or 6 pages of paper thick)
> on all the leading edges of my plane. It was dark, about 10pm, and I
> elected to stay the night. The night was patchy clouds, but mostly
> clear. I had to clear a 9000 foot ridge from a 4500 foot airport,
> which the plane was easily capable of doing in normal circumstances.
>
> The ice, and slight frost, on the airplane caused me stay. As I have
> never really tried to fly with a slight layer of frost or ice, I
> stayed; but I wonder if I was too cautious. It would have been very
> convenient for me and my passengers to go. Here's my question: just
> how much ice/frost is too much? Would the ice/frost probably have
> sublimated on climb out?

(smackey) wrote in message >...
> I'm looking for some advice whether I was too onservative here:

> Later that evening I went to the plane (C172/180) to return to BIL
> and found a very thin layer of ice (about 5 or 6 pages of paper thick)
> on all the leading edges of my plane. It was dark, about 10pm, and I
> elected to stay the night.

Well, I wouldn't have taken off with ice on the leading edges
nor trusted to them sublimating. But in similar circumstances
I've been able to depart, ice-free, in about 20 minutes either
by asking that the plane be put in a heated hangar or by buying
a gallon of de-icing solution and spraying down the leading
edges (w/ C172 obviously borrowing a ladder would be necessary).
Obviously whether or not this was feasible depends on what was
available to you. "None of the above" remain overnight seems
the soundest option.

I've heard of pilots carrying a long strip of sewn-together terry
towels and tossing them over the wing/using them to polish a layer
of frost smooth. But frankly it would make me nervous with pax
or at night, unless I'd tried it a few times and had a pretty sound
notion exactly how it changed my airplane's performance.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message .net>...
> It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation takes a long
> time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with RV-type
> antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
Thanks to all for the feedback. Question on the garden sprayer:
I usually have one filled with 90% solution of isopropyl alcohol
(didn't that nigt) from the drug store. Any reason this isn't a
feasible deicing solution to use if I were departing, say, in daytime?

Isopropyl alcohol can be a bit expensive, and evaporates quickly. Deicing
fluid like TKS is usually some combination of ethylene glycol and
isopropanol, which is a lot more viscous and sticks to the airframe better.
It also makes a tremendous mess on the hangar floor that never evaporates on
its own, and is very slippery.

A mix of warm water and cheap glycol based antifreeze in a garden sprayer
works pretty well as a substitute as mentioned. The pink or yellow-green dye
won't matter. Don't forget to do the wheels and landing gear, as well as
flap tracks, etc. In lieu of a plane with deice equipment it may give a few
minutes of ice protection, particularly if you taxi out in snow or slush.


"smackey" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
.net>...
> > It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation takes a
long
> > time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with
RV-type
> > antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> Thanks to all for the feedback. Question on the garden sprayer:
> I usually have one filled with 90% solution of isopropyl alcohol
> (didn't that nigt) from the drug store. Any reason this isn't a
> feasible deicing solution to use if I were departing, say, in daytime?

On 26 Dec 2003 13:46:48 -0800, (Snowbird)
wrote:

>buying a gallon of de-icing solution and spraying down the leading
>edges (w/ C172 obviously borrowing a ladder would be necessary).

Only for short people :)

He made a good decision. Cases of very little ice apparently causing
accidents are documented.

It's better to be on the ground wishing you were up there,
than to be up there wishing you were on the ground.

- John Ousterhout.-

Alcohol will work fine but propylene glycol will stay on longer and melt any
snow that falls between the time you spray it on and the time you takeoff.
Don't use ethylene glycol. It is toxic and you could get into trouble
deliberately leaving puddles of it on the ramp.

Mike
MU-2


"smackey" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
.net>...
> > It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation takes a
long
> > time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with
RV-type
> > antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> Thanks to all for the feedback. Question on the garden sprayer:
> I usually have one filled with 90% solution of isopropyl alcohol
> (didn't that nigt) from the drug store. Any reason this isn't a
> feasible deicing solution to use if I were departing, say, in daytime?

Now how did an MU-2 Pilot get so interested in ICE?? :):)

Kevin
Past MU-2-60 pilot

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Alcohol will work fine but propylene glycol will stay on longer and melt
any
> snow that falls between the time you spray it on and the time you takeoff.
> Don't use ethylene glycol. It is toxic and you could get into trouble
> deliberately leaving puddles of it on the ramp.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> "smackey" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> .net>...
> > > It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation takes
a
> long
> > > time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with
> RV-type
> > > antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> > >
> > Thanks to all for the feedback. Question on the garden sprayer:
> > I usually have one filled with 90% solution of isopropyl alcohol
> > (didn't that nigt) from the drug store. Any reason this isn't a
> > feasible deicing solution to use if I were departing, say, in daytime?
>
>

Free wrote:
>
> Now how did an MU-2 Pilot get so interested in ICE?? :):)

How do you think he got to *be* an MU-2 pilot?

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

We have two houses, one on the east side of the Sierra in Nevada and one in
north Idaho. Both are uncontrolled fields and both get heavy snow. I have
had an inch of snow fall between the time I got in the airplane after
cleaning it and when I had my clearance and was ready to takeoff. When it
is right around 32F I always wonder if the snow will blow off the top of the
wing or if it will freeze solid. Once flying, icing is no problem.

Mike
MU-2


"Free" > wrote in message
...
> Now how did an MU-2 Pilot get so interested in ICE?? :):)
>
> Kevin
> Past MU-2-60 pilot
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > Alcohol will work fine but propylene glycol will stay on longer and melt
> any
> > snow that falls between the time you spray it on and the time you
takeoff.
> > Don't use ethylene glycol. It is toxic and you could get into trouble
> > deliberately leaving puddles of it on the ramp.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> >
> > "smackey" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > .net>...
> > > > It probably would not have sublimated on climb out, sublimation
takes
> a
> > long
> > > > time. You might want to consider filling your garden sprayer with
> > RV-type
> > > > antifreeze as a deicing solution in the winter.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > MU-2
> > > >
> > > Thanks to all for the feedback. Question on the garden sprayer:
> > > I usually have one filled with 90% solution of isopropyl alcohol
> > > (didn't that nigt) from the drug store. Any reason this isn't a
> > > feasible deicing solution to use if I were departing, say, in daytime?
> >
> >
>
>