I fly a an "aircraft which was not originally certificated
with an engine-driven electrical system" under 91.215. I
have no transponder, but do carry a handheld radio. I was
recently told by an FAA designated pilot examiner that I
cannot fly under the outer ring of the local class C
airspace. I know I can't enter the class C. I can't find
anything in 91.215 (or elsewhere) that says I can't fly
under the outer ring of a class C.

91.215(b)(1) says I can't fly into the class C (or any A or
B)

91.215(b)(2 and (3) ) apply only to 30nm Mode C veil ops
(not applicable here) and say I have to stay below the top
of the class C or B (or 10K' if lower) when inside a veil.

91.215(b)(4) says I have to stay over 10K' if overflying the
class C and there's no mode C veil.

91.215(b)(5) doesn't apply.

Am I missing something or is he wrong? It looks like I can
fly under Class B or C airspace even when there is a mode C
veil.

bcjames wrote:
> I fly a an "aircraft which was not originally certificated
> with an engine-driven electrical system" under 91.215. I
> have no transponder, but do carry a handheld radio. I was
> recently told by an FAA designated pilot examiner that I
> cannot fly under the outer ring of the local class C
> airspace. I know I can't enter the class C. I can't find
> anything in 91.215 (or elsewhere) that says I can't fly
> under the outer ring of a class C.
>
> 91.215(b)(1) says I can't fly into the class C (or any A or
> B)
>
> 91.215(b)(2 and (3) ) apply only to 30nm Mode C veil ops
> (not applicable here) and say I have to stay below the top
> of the class C or B (or 10K' if lower) when inside a veil.
>
> 91.215(b)(4) says I have to stay over 10K' if overflying the
> class C and there's no mode C veil.
>
> 91.215(b)(5) doesn't apply.
>
> Am I missing something or is he wrong? It looks like I can
> fly under Class B or C airspace even when there is a mode C
> veil.

I think your DE is wrong. I fly under CCAS and CBAS all the time. They
would be denying access to too many airports.

Sec. 91.215 - ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

(a) All airspace: U.S.-registered civil aircraft. For operations not
conducted under part 121 or 135 of this chapter, ATC transponder
equipment installed must meet the performance and environmental
requirements of any class of TSO-C74b (Mode A) or any class of TSO-C74c
(Mode A with altitude reporting capability) as appropriate, or the
appropriate class of TSO-C112 (Mode S).

(b) All airspace. Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, no
person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs
(b)(1) through (b)(5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped
with an operable coded radar beacon transponder having either Mode 3/A
4096 code capability, replying to Mode 3/A interrogations with the code
specified by ATC, or a Mode S capability, replying to Mode 3/A
interrogations with the code specified by ATC and intermode and Mode S
interrogations in accordance with the applicable provisions specified in
TSO C-112, and that aircraft is equipped with automatic pressure
altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability that
automatically replies to Mode C interrogations by transmitting pressure
altitude information in 100-foot increments. This requirement applies --

(1) All aircraft. In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas;

(2) All aircraft. In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport
listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to
10,000 feet MSL;

(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which
was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system
or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system
installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace
within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1
of this part provided such operations are conducted --

(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and

(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace
area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower; and

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the
lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for
an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

(5) All aircraft except any aircraft which was not originally
certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not
subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon, or
glider -- --

(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of
Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and
below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a
10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2
of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the
lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for
that airport.

(c) Transponder-on operation. While in the airspace as specified in
paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person
operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder
maintained in accordance with §91.413 of this part shall operate the
transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on
the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC.

(d) ATC authorized deviations. Requests for ATC authorized deviations
must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned
airspace within the time periods specified as follows:

(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but
without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having
a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time.

(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the
airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to
proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the
request may be made at any time.

(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a
transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the
proposed operation.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number
2120-0005)

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34304, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-221,
56 FR 469, Jan. 4, 1991; Amdt. 91-227, 56 FR 65660, Dec. 17, 1991; Amdt.
91-227, 7 FR 328, Jan. 3, 1992; Amdt. 91-229, 57 FR 34618, Aug. 5, 1992;
Amdt. 91-267, 66 FR 21066, Apr. 27, 2001]

bcjames wrote:
> I fly a an "aircraft which was not originally certificated
> with an engine-driven electrical system" under 91.215. I
> have no transponder, but do carry a handheld radio. I was
> recently told by an FAA designated pilot examiner that I
> cannot fly under the outer ring of the local class C
> airspace. I know I can't enter the class C. I can't find
> anything in 91.215 (or elsewhere) that says I can't fly
> under the outer ring of a class C.
>
> 91.215(b)(1) says I can't fly into the class C (or any A or
> B)
>
> 91.215(b)(2 and (3) ) apply only to 30nm Mode C veil ops
> (not applicable here) and say I have to stay below the top
> of the class C or B (or 10K' if lower) when inside a veil.
>
> 91.215(b)(4) says I have to stay over 10K' if overflying the
> class C and there's no mode C veil.
>
> 91.215(b)(5) doesn't apply.
>
> Am I missing something or is he wrong? It looks like I can
> fly under Class B or C airspace even when there is a mode C
> veil.
http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/operating/articles/No%20Radio%20No%20Transponder%20Operations%20in%20 Class%20D%20Airspace%20in%20a%20Mode%20C%20Veil.ht ml

john smith > wrote:

>I think your DE is wrong. I fly under CCAS and CBAS all the time. They
>would be denying access to too many airports.

I've read 91.215 until my eyes are bleary, and I think he's
wrong too. You say you fly under CCAS and CBAS, all the
time, but is that without a transponder?

john smith > wrote:
>http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/operating/articles/No%20Radio%20No%20Transponder%20Operations%20in%20 Class%20D%20Airspace%20in%20a%20Mode%20C%20Veil.ht ml

That link's mostly about flying in the veil, not in the veil
under the outer ring or under an outer ring where there is
no veil. I'd feel a bit more comfortable if I got some more
opinions from the "FAR experts" here before I go challenging
a designated examiner.

bcjames wrote:
> john smith > wrote:
>
>
>>I think your DE is wrong. I fly under CCAS and CBAS all the time. They
>>would be denying access to too many airports.
>
>
> I've read 91.215 until my eyes are bleary, and I think he's
> wrong too. You say you fly under CCAS and CBAS, all the
> time, but is that without a transponder?

1945 Aeronca 7AC

bcjames wrote:
> john smith > wrote:
>
>>http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/operating/articles/No%20Radio%20No%20Transponder%20Operations%20in%20 Class%20D%20Airspace%20in%20a%20Mode%20C%20Veil.ht ml
>
>
> That link's mostly about flying in the veil, not in the veil
> under the outer ring or under an outer ring where there is
> no veil. I'd feel a bit more comfortable if I got some more
> opinions from the "FAR experts" here before I go challenging
> a designated examiner.

I thought this was pretty clear, especially (i)...

"(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft
which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical
system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system
installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace
within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1
of this part provided such operations are conducted -
(i) Outside any Class A, Class B, or Class C airspace area; and
(ii) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace
area designated for an airport or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower;"

"bcjames" > wrote in message
...
>
>I fly a an "aircraft which was not originally certificated
> with an engine-driven electrical system" under 91.215. I
> have no transponder, but do carry a handheld radio. I was
> recently told by an FAA designated pilot examiner that I
> cannot fly under the outer ring of the local class C
> airspace. I know I can't enter the class C. I can't find
> anything in 91.215 (or elsewhere) that says I can't fly
> under the outer ring of a class C.
>
> 91.215(b)(1) says I can't fly into the class C (or any A or
> B)
>
> 91.215(b)(2 and (3) ) apply only to 30nm Mode C veil ops
> (not applicable here) and say I have to stay below the top
> of the class C or B (or 10K' if lower) when inside a veil.
>
> 91.215(b)(4) says I have to stay over 10K' if overflying the
> class C and there's no mode C veil.
>
> 91.215(b)(5) doesn't apply.
>
> Am I missing something or is he wrong? It looks like I can
> fly under Class B or C airspace even when there is a mode C
> veil.
>

You're missing nothing, he's wrong.

I live on a private airstrip within the Mode C veil of DFW. We have 3 Piper
Cubs based here and they have been flying without an electrical system or
transponder, within the 30nm veil but underneath the Class B airspace, for
many, many years. Stay out of class B and you'll be OK.

Mike

"bcjames" > wrote in message
...
> john smith > wrote:
>
>http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/operating/articles/No%20Radio%20No
%20Transponder%20Operations%20in%20Class%20D%20Air space%20in%20a%20Mode%20C%
20Veil.html
>
> That link's mostly about flying in the veil, not in the veil
> under the outer ring or under an outer ring where there is
> no veil. I'd feel a bit more comfortable if I got some more
> opinions from the "FAR experts" here before I go challenging
> a designated examiner.