Hi All

I bought a Microsoft Force Feedback 2 stick about 5 months ago.
On the whole I was very disappointed with it especially with FS2004.
I had e:mail contact with the MS FS2004 team which lead nowhere.

Then I heard from a fellow who was writing a program to control force
feedback sticks. Not just MS sticks all feedback sticks.

I became a beta tester and I'll say right now....his 1st beta was a
real eye opener! My FF2 stick came to life. The beta testing
progressed very rapidly because Russ had done much of the testing
himself before we got a hold of it. Very few bugs were found.

Here is what I love about FS Force. Force Feedback like you have
never felt before! Profiles for different aircraft. Make new profiles
or adjust/edit the built in profiles. Adjustable ground handling
feedback. Feel the grooves on the runways!!! Adjustable the trim
rates. Adjustable static stick forces. Adjustable braking. Adjustable
landing impact. Adjustable "gear thump" when raising the wheels.

Plus a built in Virtual aircraft to test your setting changes BEFORE
you save them.

I was VERY disappointed with my MS FF2 stick until I used FS Force the
1st time. Now I wouldn't sell it for 5 times what I paid for it.

http://www.dirks-software.ca/fs-force/

I am not being paid for this! I am posting this because I have been
reading all the posts about how poorly force feedback sticks perform.
I can't imagine going back to my normal FF2 forces. I have never met
Russ....I don't work for him....I just want to help those of you who
are disappointed with their force feedback sticks.

There is a Demo trial period so give it a go. There is also a FS
Force forum at

http://www.dirks-software.ca/fs-force/forum/index.php

I have downloaded this and tried it, and I admit I am intrigued. However, I
have not found any marked improvements. If anything, the feedback is a
little gentler. Also, I find that with my Cessna Realair 172 the flight
characteristics have been lost. It no longer spins which was one of its best
attributes. Did you find any of this in your tests?
What were the main advantages again?


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On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:38:10 +0000 (UTC), "Quilljar" >
wrote:

>I have downloaded this and tried it, and I admit I am intrigued. However, I
>have not found any marked improvements. If anything, the feedback is a
>little gentler. Also, I find that with my Cessna Realair 172 the flight
>characteristics have been lost. It no longer spins which was one of its best
>attributes. Did you find any of this in your tests?

Sorry, I usually don't fly the small stuff but when I cranked the
feedback up on one profile I damn near broke my wrist with
FS Force! :-)

>What were the main advantages again?

On my MS Force Feedback2 running Win2000Pro I get back all the subtle
stuff missing under FS9. I like to tweak my own aircraft profiles. I
like the gear thumps. I like the adjustable landing feedback forces.
I like the adjustable braking force. Rather than MS's Hard-Medium-Soft
settings I have damn near infinite control and not just the force
itself but what speeds they come in at or fade out at.
Adjustable trim forces. MS told me via e:mail they had removed the
self center function in FS9. Well I have it back now and it's
completely adjustable!

I've flown FS2000, FS2002 and now FS2004.....I have never had
a joystick work like my FF2 is working now!

Well. I have tried it in one flight. In a Fokker F50 in one of my Virtual
Airline flights. It seemed to just jolt the stick and make the framrate
shudder for me. I'll try another flight tomorrow in a default aircraft and
see what happens.

--
jafar

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:38:10 +0000 (UTC), Quilljar > wrote:

> I have downloaded this and tried it, and I admit I am
> intrigued. However, I have not found any marked improvements. If
> anything, the feedback is a little gentler.

I agree. I downloaded and tested it yesterday. I only had a short
time to try it, but the Cessna Skyhawk and Boeing 737 both flew with
significantly _less_ feedback using my Logitech Wingman. What
post-installation configuration is needed to experience the hyperbolic
improvement described by the original poster?


--
Paul.

mailto:paulh_logicsquad_net (make the obvious substitutions)

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:46:45 +0000, jafar > wrote:

>Well. I have tried it in one flight. In a Fokker F50 in one of my Virtual
>Airline flights. It seemed to just jolt the stick and make the framrate
>shudder for me. I'll try another flight tomorrow in a default aircraft and
>see what happens.

Do you have the Trim Indicator running or turned off. There was a
frame rate hit using the Trim Indicator. After I turned the thing off
I never had the problem again. I think it defaults to OFF with
the Release version.

On 31 Dec 2003 10:09:49 +1050, "Paul A. Hoadley"
<paulh@logicsquad_net> wrote:

>I agree. I downloaded and tested it yesterday. I only had a short
>time to try it, but the Cessna Skyhawk and Boeing 737 both flew with
>significantly _less_ feedback using my Logitech Wingman. What
>post-installation configuration is needed to experience the hyperbolic
>improvement described by the original poster?

I was the original poster....I'm using a M$ Force Feedback2.
Not sure where on the site it talks about it but Russ says of all the
sticks he tested the FF2 had by far the most feedback. Maybe that's
the difference??

Assign an aircraft to the Generic profile then Edit it. Or choose to
make a new profile and play with it. Raise the levels....test it with
the virtual aircraft before you try the real thing. Once you have it
feeling stronger assign it to an aircraft and give it a shot. I can't
comment on the Logitech setup as I don't use one but the FF2 gives me
3 whole choices but with FS Force I have damn near infinite settings.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:00:07 -0800, FaxCap <howl@moons> wrote:

> Assign an aircraft to the Generic profile then Edit it. Or choose
> to make a new profile and play with it. Raise the levels....test it
> with the virtual aircraft before you try the real thing. Once you
> have it feeling stronger assign it to an aircraft and give it a
> shot. I can't comment on the Logitech setup as I don't use one but
> the FF2 gives me 3 whole choices but with FS Force I have damn near
> infinite settings.

I'll take a better look at it when I get some time. I like the
idea---I think the standard force feedback output (from FS2K4 on a
Logitech, at least) is pretty mild.


--
Paul.

mailto:paulh_logicsquad_net (make the obvious substitutions)

I cannot find any editing facilities on the free download. Do you have to
buy the prog before you can change the properties? I have the MS FFB 2 and
have installed it correctly but still have no real improvement. Also my
Cessna RealAir 172 has lost it excellent flight characteristics and reverted
to the bland character iof the default Cessna. So far this little utility
seems to have ironed out any of the feedback or character I had before!


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On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:46:45 +0000, jafar wrote:

> Well. I have tried it in one flight. In a Fokker F50 in one of my Virtual
> Airline flights. It seemed to just jolt the stick and make the framrate
> shudder for me. I'll try another flight tomorrow in a default aircraft and
> see what happens.

Ok. Reporting back I can say that this thing seems broken on my machine.
All aircraft just have a regular jolt avery 1.5 seconds or so accompanied
by graphical jitter. Better luck next version guys. I might just email
them with a few suggestions and maybe they can have a 2nd chance to
impress me as the idea is pretty cool.

--
jafar

OK I have now found the edit facility and it seems pretty good. I am
beginning to realise that there is more to this utility than I previously
thought. It probably has quite a learning curve. I understand now how you
can affect the forces on the joystick, and it is getting quite interesting.

I still cannot quite make out why my RealAir Cessna has lost its flight
characteristics though.


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On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:58:58 +0000, Quilljar wrote:

> I still cannot quite make out why my RealAir Cessna has lost its flight
> characteristics though.

Speaking of flight characteristics. I just flew an online flight with an
Embraer 120ER and a couple of times in the flight, the autopilot sent me
into a very steep climb which I had to recover from manually and then
re-engage the autopilot. This didn't happen before in this aircraft. The
next time I fly it will be with fsforce un-installed to see if it makes a
difference.

--
jafar

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:35:34 -0800, Garraty >
wrote:

>>I am not being paid for this! I am posting this because I have been
>>reading all the posts about how poorly force feedback sticks perform.
>
>No, but I bet posting this was part of the requirement of being a beta
>tester and getting a free copy, huh? $45.00 CAD for that? Take a hike.

You couldn't be farther from the truth.

I spent all that money for my M$ FF2 and was very disappointed in it.
After using FS Force for 1 day I knew this was the way FF was supposed
to work. Besides, you're the one saying beta testers got it for free
not me. The beta testing was very very quick and easy. Russ had FSF
working great right from day #1. There were a few small items to clear
up nothing even close to be major. Russ's 1st beta is what M$ calls a
gold release candidate! :-)

On Thu, 01 Jan 2004 11:02:29 -0800, Pinky > wrote:

>still stand by my comment of "take a hike". He is asking way too much
>for such a small item. I can buy games that took 40 man years to
>complete for less than that. I can't stand shysters.

Well I guess you exercised your democratic right to not buy it.