Well Newps,

The bids have come out for displaced Flight Service controllers to enter the
terminal ATC environment. Looks like KBIL is one of the places they will be
selecting into. I don't see a single ARTCC on the list, just ATC level 6,7
and 8 terminal facilities.

Good luck...

Chip, ZTL



FAA Bid announcement follows:

Open Date: Apr 04,2005
Close Date: Apr 25,2005
Position: Air Traffic Control Specialist,(CPC,ATC-7 Level),AT-2152-GH
Salary Range: $44,991 to $89,982
Duty Location(s): See NOTE for all Locations, United States
Organization Location: Central Region, This National Bid Announcement covers
ATCS position vacancies at the following ATC-7 Level Facilities (See NOTE
for all Facilities),

PCS: No PCS Expenses will be paid.

Area of Consideration: Surplus/Displaced FV-2152 AFSS and FSDPS employees

Duties: Serves as a controller in a Level 7 terminal facility responsible
for the safe, orderly, and expeditious flow of air traffic.

NOTE: ATC-7 Level Facilities EASTERN TERMINAL SERVICE AREA: Burlinton, VT
(BTV) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Morristown, NJ (MMU) Limited Radar -
Entry Level D3 Huntsville Tower, AL (HSV) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2
Nantucket, MA (ACK) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 Lexington, KY (LEX)
Up/Down - Entry Level D2 Montgomery, AL (MGM) Up/Down - Entry Level D2
CENTRAL TERMINAL SERVICE AREA: Abilene, TX (ABI) Up/Down Facility - Entry
Level D2 Baton Rouge, LA (BTR) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Champaign,
IL (CMI) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Grand Forks, ND (GFK) Limited
Radar - Entry Level D3 Kalamazoo, MI (AZO) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2
Lafayette, LA (LFT) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Longview, TX (GGG)
Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Lubbock, TX (LBB) Up/Down Facility - Entry
Level D2 Muskegon, MI (MKG) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Omaha, NE
(OMA) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 Palwaukee, Wheeling, IL (PWK) - Limited
Radar - Entry Level D3 Peoria, IL (PIA) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2
Roswell, NM (ROW) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Saginaw, MI (MBS)
Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Shreveport, LA (SHV) Up/Down Facility -
Entry Level D2 South Bend, IN (SBN) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2
Youngstown, OH (YNG) Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2 Amarillo, TX (AMA)
Up/Down Facility - Entry Level D2

WESTERN TERMINAL SERVICE AREA: Merrill Field, Anchorage, AK (MRI) Limited
Radar - Entry Level D3 Billings, MT (BIL) Up/Down - Entry Level D2 Brackett,
San Diego, CA (POC) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 Burbank, CA (BUR) Limited
Radar - Entry Level D3 Camarillo, CA (CMA) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3
Chino,CA (CNO) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 Eugene, OR (EUG) Up/Down -
Entry Level D2 Fairbanks, AK (FAI) Up/Down - Entry Level D2 Falcoln Field,
Meza, AZ (FFZ) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 Hilo Int'l, Hawaii (ITO)
Up/Down - Entry Level D2 Kahului, Hawaii (OGG) Limited Radar - Entry Level
D3 Moses Lake, WA (MWH) Up/Down - Entry Level D2 McClellen/Palomar,
Carlsbad, CA (CRQ) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 N. Las Vegas, NV (VGT)
Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 Montgomery, San Diego, CA (MYF) Limited
Radar - Entry Level D3 Palo Alto, CA (PAO) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3
Pasco/Tri-Cities, WA (PSC) Up/Down - Entry Level D2 Prescott, AZ (PRC) VFR -
Entry Level D3 Pueblo, CO (PUB) Up/Down - Entry Level D2 Santa Monica, CA
(SMO) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 San Diego/Gillespie, CA (SEE) Limited
Radar - Entry Level D3 Scottsdale, AZ (SDL) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3
San Jose'/Red Hill View, CA (RHV) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3 Torrance,
CA (TOA) Limited Radar - Entry Level D3

What is a "Flight Service Controller"?
-Robert, CFI

ATM says a lot of them have called. We won't be taking any as we are
overstaffed right now. Bozeman is getting radar. The city fathers want
it so bad they are buying the radar themselves. ZLC doesn't want
anything to do with it. It looks like we will be working it from here.
At that point we might need a couple more controllers. That would
probably make us level 9. There's also a possibility that Great Falls
will lose their TRACON and we would also work that too, as a level 10.
Imagine that, level 10 and able to get the day off whenever I need it.
We will be moving into our new tower Aug 2006 and the TRACON is huge.
Political pressure is already being applied from our end and from
ZLC's end. ZLC airspace guys are already drawing up the new approach
control airspace for BZN. So time will tell.

Chip Jones wrote:
> Well Newps,
>
> The bids have come out for displaced Flight Service controllers to enter the
> terminal ATC environment. Looks like KBIL is one of the places they will be
> selecting into. I don't see a single ARTCC on the list, just ATC level 6,7
> and 8 terminal facilities.
>
> Good luck...
>
> Chip, ZTL

"Chip Jones" wrote:
> Up/Down Facility -

What's that? Sounds like an elevator.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Chip Jones" wrote:
>
>>Up/Down Facility -
>
>
> What's that? Sounds like an elevator.

We don't have an elevator here at BIL. That'll be one of the upgrades
when we move into the new tower. An up/down is a tower whose
controllers work both in the tower and in the radar room.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What is a "Flight Service Controller"?
> -Robert, CFI
>

The FAA specialists who worked in Flight Service Stations were air traffic
controllers by government job title (GS-2152). Thus, they called themselves
air traffic controllers, although they didn't control air traffic. The
Flight Service Station "controller" jobs (2500 of them) have been
privatized, given to Lockheed Martin in a huge money grab. LockMart pays
the salaries, and your tax dollars pay for everything else in the deal. FSS
will now be a "for profit" business and Lockheed will reap a profit at the
expense of their employees, who stand to lose their pensions, benefits etc
after years and years of government service. The FSS "controllers" who are
eligible to remain in the FAA (about 250) have been offered tower jobs at
the smaller FAA terminal facilities.

Chip, ZTL

Chip Jones wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>What is a "Flight Service Controller"?
>>-Robert, CFI
>>
>
>
> The FAA specialists who worked in Flight Service Stations were air traffic
> controllers by government job title (GS-2152). Thus, they called themselves
> air traffic controllers, although they didn't control air traffic. The
> Flight Service Station "controller" jobs (2500 of them) have been
> privatized, given to Lockheed Martin in a huge money grab. LockMart pays
> the salaries, and your tax dollars pay for everything else in the deal. FSS
> will now be a "for profit" business and Lockheed will reap a profit at the
> expense of their employees, who stand to lose their pensions, benefits etc
> after years and years of government service. The FSS "controllers" who are
> eligible to remain in the FAA (about 250) have been offered tower jobs at
> the smaller FAA terminal facilities.

But every one of these guys knew this was coming. Twenty years ago
everybody going into FSS was told that it was forseeable that technology
would eliminate their jobs. Personally I think the new FSS will be many
orders of magnitude better than what we have now.

Newps wrote:

> Chip Jones wrote:
> > "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> >
> >>What is a "Flight Service Controller"?
> >>-Robert, CFI
> >>
> >
> >
>
> But every one of these guys knew this was coming. Twenty years ago
> everybody going into FSS was told that it was forseeable that technology
> would eliminate their jobs. Personally I think the new FSS will be many
> orders of magnitude better than what we have now.

It certainly has the potential of being better.

The old rumor around the flight line was that many FSS specialists were controller
initial-hire trainees who couldn't complete the course at OKC or perhaps at their
first ATC facility.

Newps wrote:

> Dan Luke wrote:
> > "Chip Jones" wrote:
> >
> >>Up/Down Facility -
> >
> >
> > What's that? Sounds like an elevator.
>
> We don't have an elevator here at BIL. That'll be one of the upgrades
> when we move into the new tower. An up/down is a tower whose
> controllers work both in the tower and in the radar room.

Help me with this Bozeman deal. You say the city fathers are buying the
terminal radar. I presume this will be an ASR-9? I gather there will not
be a tower TRACON. Did you say it has been finalized that ZLC will
provide the approach control services via the new ASR-X as opposed to
center radar, which I presume to be spotty in that area, at least for
terminal services.

Why wouldn't they pipe this new Bozeman ASR to a nearby TRACON, like MSO
goes to Spokane and KMFR goes to Eugene?

And, Great Falls TRACON is going to shut down? Is that because it is a
USAF facility? I know that USAF TRACONS have been known to shut down but
I have never heard in recent years of an FAA TRACON shutting down.

Do you know of any other instance where a center provides approach control
services using an ASR local to the airport, as opposed to using center
radar?

Thanks for the info.

> wrote in message ...
>
> The old rumor around the flight line was that many FSS specialists were
> controller
> initial-hire trainees who couldn't complete the course at OKC or perhaps
> at their
> first ATC facility.
>

That's not a rumor, many FSS specialists are ATC washouts. Back when there
were ATC washouts, that is. The pattern was if you washed out on manual
control you went to a FSS, if you washed out on radar you went to a VFR
tower.

wrote:

>
>
> Help me with this Bozeman deal. You say the city fathers are buying the
> terminal radar. I presume this will be an ASR-9?

No, it's a beacon only system. I forget the number.


I gather there will not
> be a tower TRACON.

BZN is a contract tower. The city bought and paid for that too. The
city was told by the FAA that if they build a tower the FAA would
include it in the contract tower program. Same as at Kalispell, FCA.


Did you say it has been finalized that ZLC will
> provide the approach control services via the new ASR-X as opposed to
> center radar, which I presume to be spotty in that area, at least for
> terminal services.

Right now ZLC gets a plane in the vicinity and all approaches are done
non radar. The only thing finalized is that the radar is going in and
the data will be routed to ZLC. Problem is because of center rules and
inefficiencies the new radar doesn't gain them anything.

>
> Why wouldn't they pipe this new Bozeman ASR to a nearby TRACON, like MSO
> goes to Spokane and KMFR goes to Eugene?

That's the plan. We are working thru Congress right now to get that
accomplished. One of the Montana Senators is the Chairman of the
aviation commitee and our only Represenative is on the aviation
subcommittee in the House. It's only about money at this point.
Everybody agrees that the radar should be worked from a TRACON and not
the center. It takes money to send the data from ZLC to BIL. The
problem we have here is that in order to work two separate systems, ours
and BZN, we would need either two separate ARTS systems or STARS. STARS
has been so problematical they took us off the list for installation at
our new tower that opens in Aug/06.


>
> And, Great Falls TRACON is going to shut down? Is that because it is a
> USAF facility? I know that USAF TRACONS have been known to shut down but
> I have never heard in recent years of an FAA TRACON shutting down.

GTF was never a USAF facility. They decommissioned the runway at the
Air Force base(GFA) several years ago and now only helicopters land
there. It is only a missile base now. There are some F16's at GTF but
that is a guard unit. GTF tower has personnel problems and have had
ever since I came to Montana. The union rep was fired not too long ago
because on 9/11 he launched airplanes after we were all told to ground
everything. Then he stole the tape of that day. How he stayed out of
jail I don't know. If the FAA wants to keep consolidating BIL is the
perfect spot to run all these radars and then contract out the resulting
VFR towers.

>
> Do you know of any other instance where a center provides approach control
> services using an ASR local to the airport, as opposed to using center
> radar?

No, I don't know if it's being done anywhere. It probably is because
our ASR-11 right now goes to the center and it fills in gaps in their
coverage. They are going to do whatever software updates they need to
to make our radar a 120 mile system vs the 60 it is right now. This
will only be used by the center, our scopes will remain the same.

wrote:


>
> The old rumor around the flight line was that many FSS specialists were controller
> initial-hire trainees who couldn't complete the course at OKC or perhaps at their
> first ATC facility.

FSS had two pipelines. They did hire new people on their own that went
to the Academy to become FSS. They then also got some Center washouts
who didn't qualify for a tower. The last I heard was that if you had
two radar sectors and then washed from a center you went to a level 3
tower like here at BIL or Des Moines. If you washed after only one
radar sector you went to a level 1 or 2 VFR tower. If you washed with
no radar then you could go to FSS. Once those guys got there very few
ever tried to move back up. Some of these places are in the middle of
nowhere and GS-12 is a pretty good living out there doing nothing. As
soon as the internet came along their fate was sealed.

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> GTF tower has personnel problems and have had
> ever since I came to Montana. The union rep was fired not too long ago
> because on 9/11 he launched airplanes after we were all told to ground
> everything. Then he stole the tape of that day. How he stayed out of
> jail I don't know.

His name wasn't Sandy Berger, was it?