Looking for pilot beta testers to help us test a new Metar weather txt
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On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 10:27:27 -0700, wrote:

>Looking for pilot beta testers to help us test a new Metar weather txt
>messaging service. Your account is free in exchange for helping us to
>test. Visit us at www.wxnotice.com.

TAF reports are finished and ready for testing if any pilots are
interested.

Someone here was asking about flying time in a Stearman biplane.

I talked with Damian DelGaizo at Andover (NJ) Flight the other week,
and he now has a Stearman on line, in addition to a Super Cub and an
L-4. It is available for dual. I'm not sure about solo.

As noted at the time, the Stearman at Hampton NH has been sold. It's
still on the field but I don't think is available for instruction at
this time. When it was used for training, that one was dual one, per
order of the insurance company.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

Cub Driver wrote:
> Someone here was asking about flying time in a Stearman biplane.
> I talked with Damian DelGaizo at Andover (NJ) Flight the other week,
> and he now has a Stearman on line, in addition to a Super Cub and an
> L-4. It is available for dual. I'm not sure about solo.
> As noted at the time, the Stearman at Hampton NH has been sold. It's
> still on the field but I don't think is available for instruction at
> this time. When it was used for training, that one was dual one, per
> order of the insurance company.

Waynesville OH had a Stearman you could get dual in and solo.
You had to have your own liability and hull, though.
Some people were buying their own hull coverage for the summer months,
then cancelling for the balance of the year.

John,
They still have the Stearman, and yes you can solo in it after you get
checked out in it. Rental Insurance is a must!

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
> Cub Driver wrote:
>> Someone here was asking about flying time in a Stearman biplane. I talked
>> with Damian DelGaizo at Andover (NJ) Flight the other week,
>> and he now has a Stearman on line, in addition to a Super Cub and an
>> L-4. It is available for dual. I'm not sure about solo. As noted at the
>> time, the Stearman at Hampton NH has been sold. It's
>> still on the field but I don't think is available for instruction at
>> this time. When it was used for training, that one was dual one, per
>> order of the insurance company.
>
> Waynesville OH had a Stearman you could get dual in and solo.
> You had to have your own liability and hull, though.
> Some people were buying their own hull coverage for the summer months,
> then cancelling for the balance of the year.

"W P Dixon" > wrote in message ...
> John,
> They still have the Stearman, and yes you can solo in it after you get checked out in it. Rental Insurance is a must!
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech
>

How much per hour for the rental?

Stearman $132.00 , Citabria $75.00 , Decathlon $118.00 , Pitts $300, Arrow
$96.00 , C150 $48.00 , C172 $61.00 , Champ $45.00 , Cub $45.00, and last but
not least Schweizer sailplane $32.00. Red Stewart's Airfield , 4925 North
State Route 42, Waynesville, OH 45068, 513-897-7717 To rent the Cub and
Champ 25,000 hull rental insurance is required. Not sure of the others, give
them a call. Flight instructors are 27 an hour in case you need a check out.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

" Blueskies" > wrote in message
...
>
> "W P Dixon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> John,
>> They still have the Stearman, and yes you can solo in it after you get
>> checked out in it. Rental Insurance is a must!
>>
>> Patrick
>> student SPL
>> aircraft structural mech
>>
>
> How much per hour for the rental?
>

"W P Dixon" > wrote:
> Stearman $132.00 , Citabria $75.00 , Decathlon $118.00 , Pitts $300, Arrow
> $96.00 , C150 $48.00 , C172 $61.00 , Champ $45.00 , Cub $45.00, and last but
> not least Schweizer sailplane $32.00. Red Stewart's Airfield , 4925 North
> State Route 42, Waynesville, OH 45068, 513-897-7717 To rent the Cub and
> Champ 25,000 hull rental insurance is required. Not sure of the others, give
> them a call. Flight instructors are 27 an hour in case you need a check out.

Wow, it's always interesting to see different prices in different parts
of the country. Near Phoenix, AZ, at the school where I worked, a C152
was $63, the least expensive C172 (an "M") was $85, the C172SP was $105
(and I understand it has recently gone up again), and the SuperCub at a
nearby school is $80. Flight instruction is $45/hr.

W P Dixon wrote:
> Stearman $132.00 , Citabria $75.00 , Decathlon $118.00 , Pitts $300, Arrow
> $96.00 , C150 $48.00 , C172 $61.00 , Champ $45.00 , Cub $45.00, and last but
> not least Schweizer sailplane $32.00. Red Stewart's Airfield , 4925 North
> State Route 42, Waynesville, OH 45068, 513-897-7717 To rent the Cub and
> Champ 25,000 hull rental insurance is required. Not sure of the others, give
> them a call. Flight instructors are 27 an hour in case you need a check out.


Those are really reasonable prices. I'm also impressed with the variety. The
only folks around me that I know of with any real variety are a club with some
rather hefty monthly dues.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Yep,
See why I drive 5 hours to go fly with them? ;) Before it's all over I
will fly the Stearman and will do spin training as well. Just simple flying
at it's best, a grass field in real good shape,...and close enough to
"things to do for the family" Pretty much decided to get checked out in the
Cub after I get done with the Champ. I sure can't find anywhere cheaper, and
I sure can not find those planes to rent within a days drive ;)


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
om...
>W P Dixon wrote:
>> Stearman $132.00 , Citabria $75.00 , Decathlon $118.00 , Pitts $300,
>> Arrow
>> $96.00 , C150 $48.00 , C172 $61.00 , Champ $45.00 , Cub $45.00, and last
>> but
>> not least Schweizer sailplane $32.00. Red Stewart's Airfield , 4925 North
>> State Route 42, Waynesville, OH 45068, 513-897-7717 To rent the Cub and
>> Champ 25,000 hull rental insurance is required. Not sure of the others,
>> give
>> them a call. Flight instructors are 27 an hour in case you need a check
>> out.
>
>
> Those are really reasonable prices. I'm also impressed with the variety.
> The only folks around me that I know of with any real variety are a club
> with some rather hefty monthly dues.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>
>
>
>

W P Dixon wrote:
> Yep,
> See why I drive 5 hours to go fly with them? ;) Before it's all over I
> will fly the Stearman and will do spin training as well. Just simple
> flying at it's best, a grass field in real good shape,...and close
> enough to "things to do for the family" Pretty much decided to get
> checked out in the Cub after I get done with the Champ. I sure can't
> find anywhere cheaper, and I sure can not find those planes to rent
> within a days drive ;)

Don't forget to make a skydive and get an hour of glider instruction
while you are there! :-))

I tell you!,
Listening to some of the folks on here talk about flying gliders , I
really can see that as being part of my personal training agenda. Hey I may
only going to be a sport pilot, and they have their standards of 15 duel and
5 solo. But I really do not care about the standards in hours. I will be a
good pilot when I am done. Thus serious tailwheel training,...even will go
to St Louis and do a Luscombe checkout when the time comes. Spin training is
on the agenda with some aero, and I really have to consider the benefits to
be gained from the experience of gliders..really think it would just do alot
to improve anyones skills who has never spent time in one. The same can be
said for a taildragger !
Sky-diving OH I AM GAME FOR THAT!!!!!! I used to love repelling from
choppers in the Corps, and tried and tried to get them to send me to jump
school! I'd love it. Oh geesh another expensive hobby for my broke butt!!!
HAHAHAHAHA It would be alot of fun to try at least once though! I do kinda
worry about the impact on my leg?

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"john smith" > wrote in message
. ..
>W P Dixon wrote:
>> Yep,
>> See why I drive 5 hours to go fly with them? ;) Before it's all over I
>> will fly the Stearman and will do spin training as well. Just simple
>> flying at it's best, a grass field in real good shape,...and close enough
>> to "things to do for the family" Pretty much decided to get checked out
>> in the Cub after I get done with the Champ. I sure can't find anywhere
>> cheaper, and I sure can not find those planes to rent within a days drive
>> ;)
>
> Don't forget to make a skydive and get an hour of glider instruction while
> you are there! :-))

On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 08:41:14 -0700, wrote:

>the SuperCub at a
>nearby school is $80. Flight instruction is $45/hr.

The Cub is a good deal. Of course a lot depends on the condition. The
local airport has a lease-back on a "glass cockpit" Cessna, which
rents for more than twice what the weary old 172s do.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

$300 an hour for a Pitts??!! Is that for real? Are Pitts' really
commanding that kind of price? Unless the insurance is the same for a 747,
I can't imagine why it would be that much.

Glad I don't have to rent one.

Shawn

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
om...
>W P Dixon wrote:
>> Stearman $132.00 , Citabria $75.00 , Decathlon $118.00 , Pitts $300,
>> Arrow
>> $96.00 , C150 $48.00 , C172 $61.00 , Champ $45.00 , Cub $45.00, and last
>> but
>> not least Schweizer sailplane $32.00. Red Stewart's Airfield , 4925 North
>> State Route 42, Waynesville, OH 45068, 513-897-7717 To rent the Cub and
>> Champ 25,000 hull rental insurance is required. Not sure of the others,
>> give
>> them a call. Flight instructors are 27 an hour in case you need a check
>> out.
>
>
> Those are really reasonable prices. I'm also impressed with the variety.
> The only folks around me that I know of with any real variety are a club
> with some rather hefty monthly dues.
>
>
>
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>
>
>
>

The Pitts is high due to the engine runout I suspect, TBO is so short.

Bush

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 17:01:29 GMT, "ShawnD2112"
> wrote:

>$300 an hour for a Pitts??!! Is that for real? Are Pitts' really
>commanding that kind of price? Unless the insurance is the same for a 747,
>I can't imagine why it would be that much.
>
>Glad I don't have to rent one.
>
>Shawn
>
>"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
om...
>>W P Dixon wrote:
>>> Stearman $132.00 , Citabria $75.00 , Decathlon $118.00 , Pitts $300,
>>> Arrow
>>> $96.00 , C150 $48.00 , C172 $61.00 , Champ $45.00 , Cub $45.00, and last
>>> but
>>> not least Schweizer sailplane $32.00. Red Stewart's Airfield , 4925 North
>>> State Route 42, Waynesville, OH 45068, 513-897-7717 To rent the Cub and
>>> Champ 25,000 hull rental insurance is required. Not sure of the others,
>>> give
>>> them a call. Flight instructors are 27 an hour in case you need a check
>>> out.
>>
>>
>> Those are really reasonable prices. I'm also impressed with the variety.
>> The only folks around me that I know of with any real variety are a club
>> with some rather hefty monthly dues.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Bushleague > wrote:
> The Pitts is high due to the engine runout I suspect, TBO is so short.

Actual engine TBO for a Pitts used for aerobatics is 600-700 hours.
Factory list TBO is 2000(?)

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Bushleague > wrote:
> > The Pitts is high due to the engine runout I suspect, TBO is so short.
>
> Actual engine TBO for a Pitts used for aerobatics is 600-700 hours.
> Factory list TBO is 2000(?)

I would think that additional insurance prices would also be necessary to
cover the occasional payout for blotched aerobatics, ending in destruction
of the plane, and occasional demise of the pilot. :-( Add to that, the
tricky ground handling causing ground loops, bent gear, and bent wings, ect.

I could be wrong, then....
Nevermind! :-)
--
Jim in NC

Is it? Why would it be shorter than any other engine TBO? Do you have a
reference? If my engine's running out, I'd like to read up on it and find
out what's different.

Shawn

"Bushleague" > wrote in message
...
> The Pitts is high due to the engine runout I suspect, TBO is so short.
>
> Bush
>
> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 17:01:29 GMT, "ShawnD2112"
> > wrote:
>
>>$300 an hour for a Pitts??!! Is that for real? Are Pitts' really
>>commanding that kind of price? Unless the insurance is the same for a
>>747,
>>I can't imagine why it would be that much.
>>
>>Glad I don't have to rent one.
>>
>>Shawn
>>
>>"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in
>>message
om...
>>>W P Dixon wrote:
>>>> Stearman $132.00 , Citabria $75.00 , Decathlon $118.00 , Pitts $300,
>>>> Arrow
>>>> $96.00 , C150 $48.00 , C172 $61.00 , Champ $45.00 , Cub $45.00, and
>>>> last
>>>> but
>>>> not least Schweizer sailplane $32.00. Red Stewart's Airfield , 4925
>>>> North
>>>> State Route 42, Waynesville, OH 45068, 513-897-7717 To rent the Cub and
>>>> Champ 25,000 hull rental insurance is required. Not sure of the others,
>>>> give
>>>> them a call. Flight instructors are 27 an hour in case you need a check
>>>> out.
>>>
>>>
>>> Those are really reasonable prices. I'm also impressed with the
>>> variety.
>>> The only folks around me that I know of with any real variety are a club
>>> with some rather hefty monthly dues.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Morgans wrote:

> I would think that additional insurance prices would also be necessary to
> cover the occasional payout for blotched aerobatics, ending in destruction
> of the plane, and occasional demise of the pilot. :-( Add to that, the
> tricky ground handling causing ground loops, bent gear, and bent wings, ect.

Aerobatics is every bit as safe as flying straight and level, even if
one figure or two go wrong (which inevitably happens when you explore
new maneuvres). Statistically, aerobatics is even safer than "normal"
flight.

Ground handling a Pitts is another thing, though.

Stfan

Actually ,
The airfield owns it's planes and provides it's own insurance.It's a
reason the planes other than the Pitts are so reasonably priced for rental.
Your rental insurance covers the plane, so you are flipping that bill. I
would imagine the Pitts price is due to operating costs. Engine overhauls
and such...and how much does it cost to have chutes repacked ..what is it
like every 90 days or so?

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
>
>> I would think that additional insurance prices would also be necessary to
>> cover the occasional payout for blotched aerobatics, ending in
>> destruction
>> of the plane, and occasional demise of the pilot. :-( Add to that, the
>> tricky ground handling causing ground loops, bent gear, and bent wings,
>> ect.
>
> Aerobatics is every bit as safe as flying straight and level, even if one
> figure or two go wrong (which inevitably happens when you explore new
> maneuvres). Statistically, aerobatics is even safer than "normal" flight.
>
> Ground handling a Pitts is another thing, though.
>
> Stfan

W P Dixon wrote:

> Actually ,
> The airfield owns it's planes and provides it's own insurance.It's a
> reason the planes other than the Pitts are so reasonably priced for
> rental. Your rental insurance covers the plane, so you are flipping that
> bill. I would imagine the Pitts price is due to operating costs. Engine
> overhauls and such...and how much does it cost to have chutes repacked
> ..what is it like every 90 days or so?
>
> Patrick
> student SPL
> aircraft structural mech
>


120 I thought but my experience there was long ago.

--
Saville

Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html

Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm

Steambending FAQ with photos:

http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm

I think you are right about the 120 days,...anybody know how much it costs
to have one repacked? Do we have any parachute riggers on the group?

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"gregg" > wrote in message
...
>W P Dixon wrote:
>
>> Actually ,
>> The airfield owns it's planes and provides it's own insurance.It's a
>> reason the planes other than the Pitts are so reasonably priced for
>> rental. Your rental insurance covers the plane, so you are flipping that
>> bill. I would imagine the Pitts price is due to operating costs. Engine
>> overhauls and such...and how much does it cost to have chutes repacked
>> ..what is it like every 90 days or so?
>>
>> Patrick
>> student SPL
>> aircraft structural mech
>>
>
>
> 120 I thought but my experience there was long ago.
>
> --
> Saville
>
> Replicas of 15th-19th century nautical navigational instruments:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/backstaffhome.html
>
> Restoration of my 82 year old Herreshoff S-Boat sailboat:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/SBOATrestore.htm
>
> Steambending FAQ with photos:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~saville/Steambend.htm
>
>

> Is it? Why would it be shorter than any other engine TBO? Do you have a
> reference? If my engine's running out, I'd like to read up on it and find
> out what's different.

Yes, hundreds of owners who fly competition aerobatics.
In competition aerobatics you are constantly and repeatedly going from
full throttle to idle. There is no in between setting.
The only time you fly at a given power setting for any length of time is
when you are flying from one contest to another.

Sure, I understand that part, but where is there a Lycoming or FAA reference
that says an engine installed in an aerobatic engine has a shorter TBO? The
reason I ask is that, to my knowledge, all the Pitts drivers here in the UK
are operating on 1500 or so hours (mine's so short of that mark as to not
have to even worry about it for a while yet). No one has ever mentioned a
shorter TBO requirement and, even with binary throttle application like
you're talking about, I don't hear of too many of my colleagues having to do
any more maintenance than anyone else.

The answer to the $300/hour Pitts must lie someplace else...

Shawn

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> Is it? Why would it be shorter than any other engine TBO? Do you have a
>> reference? If my engine's running out, I'd like to read up on it and
>> find
>> out what's different.
>
> Yes, hundreds of owners who fly competition aerobatics.
> In competition aerobatics you are constantly and repeatedly going from
> full throttle to idle. There is no in between setting.
> The only time you fly at a given power setting for any length of time is
> when you are flying from one contest to another.

Heck!
That's pretty reasonable , may have to find me a chute! ;)

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "W P Dixon" > wrote:
>
>>I think you are right about the 120 days,...anybody know how much it costs
>>to have one repacked? Do we have any parachute riggers on the group?
>
> Typical repack costs for emergency chute are $25 - $35 in
> the NY area.
>
> Do not spin this aircraft. If the aircraft does enter a spin it will
> return to earth without further attention on the part of the aeronaut.
>
> (first handbook issued with the Curtis-Wright flyer)

"Stefan" > wrote

> Statistically, aerobatics is even safer than "normal" flight.


All I can say, is figures lie, and liers figure. I'm not calling you a
liar, since I know you are just quoting. <g>

Seriously, I can't see how that could be true. The same things that a
regular flight can still happen, and added to that, sometimes the wing is
over stressed and folds, or there is spacial disoreintation, and flight
finds ground, or......

If this is true, why is it required to wear a parachute? I could go on.


> Ground handling a Pitts is another thing, though.

--
Jim in NC

Perhaps I should have said that the engines need to be rebuilt after
600-700 hours.

Morgans wrote:

>>Statistically, aerobatics is even safer than "normal" flight.

> Seriously, I can't see how that could be true. The same things that a
> regular flight can still happen, and added to that, sometimes the wing is
> over stressed and folds, or there is spacial disoreintation, and flight
> finds ground, or......

Obviously you don't fly aerobatics yourself.

Stefan

Same question applies as that is what TBO is.

Shawn

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Perhaps I should have said that the engines need to be rebuilt after
> 600-700 hours.

ShawnD2112 wrote:
> Same question applies as that is what TBO is.

Actually, TBO is the manufacturer's recommended time between overhauls. The
engine may last a lot longer than that if it's babied. If you abuse the engine
(and competion aerobatics abuses engines), it will have to be rebuilt long
before TBO. I don't know if John's figure of 600-700 hours is correct, but it
wouldn't surprise me.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Dude, you're NOT getting it!!!
The engines are worn out!
The engines will not make manufacturer's TBO due to the way they are
used.
They are constantly cycled between full throttle to idle every minute of
an aerobatic sequence for as long as the pilot practices or competes.

> Same question applies as that is what TBO is.

> > Perhaps I should have said that the engines need to be rebuilt after
> > 600-700 hours.

Morgans wrote:

> True, but what does that have to do with why pilots flying aerobatics are
> required to wear parachutes? Are you saying this is not needed, because it
> is just as safe as other GA?

In the country where I fly it's not required. I've never understood why
it is in the USA. (Don't get me wrong: I don't say that it's a bad idea
to wear one.)

Stefan

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans wrote:
>
> >>Statistically, aerobatics is even safer than "normal" flight.
>
> > Seriously, I can't see how that could be true. The same things that a
> > regular flight can still happen, and added to that, sometimes the wing
is
> > over stressed and folds, or there is spacial disoreintation, and flight
> > finds ground, or......
>
> Obviously you don't fly aerobatics yourself.

True, but what does that have to do with why pilots flying aerobatics are
required to wear parachutes? Are you saying this is not needed, because it
is just as safe as other GA?

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:44:02 GMT, "ShawnD2112"
> wrote:

>Sure, I understand that part, but where is there a Lycoming or FAA reference
>that says an engine installed in an aerobatic engine has a shorter TBO? The
>reason I ask is that, to my knowledge, all the Pitts drivers here in the UK
>are operating on 1500 or so hours (mine's so short of that mark as to not
>have to even worry about it for a while yet). No one has ever mentioned a
>shorter TBO requirement and, even with binary throttle application like
>you're talking about, I don't hear of too many of my colleagues having to do
>any more maintenance than anyone else.

http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/maintenancePublications/serviceInstructions/SI1009AR.pdf

Look at any "A" engine and read note 6

Appears that 1400 hours is the maximum recommended TBO

TC

> http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/maintenancePublications/s
> erviceInstructions/SI1009AR.pdf
>
> Look at any "A" engine and read note 6

6. The reliability and service life of engines can be detrimentally
affected if they are repeatedly operated at alternating high and low
power applications which cause extreme changes in cylinder temperatures.
Flight maneuvers which cause engine overspeed also contribute to
abnormal wear characteristics that tend to shorten engine life. These
factors must be considered to establish TBO of aerobatic engines;
therefore it is the responsibility of the operator to determine the
percentage of time the engine is used for aerobatics and establish his
own TBO. The maximum recommended is the time specified in this
instruction.

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Morgans wrote:
> >
> > >>Statistically, aerobatics is even safer than "normal" flight.
> >
> > > Seriously, I can't see how that could be true. The same things that a
> > > regular flight can still happen, and added to that, sometimes the wing
> is
> > > over stressed and folds, or there is spacial disoreintation, and
flight
> > > finds ground, or......
> >
> > Obviously you don't fly aerobatics yourself.
>
> True, but what does that have to do with why pilots flying aerobatics are
> required to wear parachutes? Are you saying this is not needed, because
it
> is just as safe as other GA?

It is an FAA regulation and like many FAA regulations it makes no sense.

On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:18:46 GMT, john smith > wrote:

>> Is it? Why would it be shorter than any other engine TBO? Do you have a
>> reference? If my engine's running out, I'd like to read up on it and find
>> out what's different.
>
>Yes, hundreds of owners who fly competition aerobatics.
>In competition aerobatics you are constantly and repeatedly going from
>full throttle to idle. There is no in between setting.
>The only time you fly at a given power setting for any length of time is
>when you are flying from one contest to another.

Also maneuvers such as snap rolls produce some pretty stong forces on
the front seal and bearings when done at full power. That prop is
like a big gyroscope.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dude, the thing I'm not getting is your assertion about the engine life and
condition because the experience I'm having with my own engine and those of
my Pitts colleagues here in the UK is not the same. Engines are making it
to 1500 hours and are not worn out at 500 or even 750 hours. If you've got
some genuine information regarding the life of the engine, I'm interested to
know it. If you don't, you're just speculating on hearsay.

Shawn

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> Dude, you're NOT getting it!!!
> The engines are worn out!
> The engines will not make manufacturer's TBO due to the way they are
> used.
> They are constantly cycled between full throttle to idle every minute of
> an aerobatic sequence for as long as the pilot practices or competes.
>
>> Same question applies as that is what TBO is.
>
>> > Perhaps I should have said that the engines need to be rebuilt after
>> > 600-700 hours.

That's absolutely true, especially with metal props. Guys with metal props
have to really watch their gyros and keep a close eye on the seals.

Shawn

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:18:46 GMT, john smith > wrote:
>
>>> Is it? Why would it be shorter than any other engine TBO? Do you have
>>> a
>>> reference? If my engine's running out, I'd like to read up on it and
>>> find
>>> out what's different.
>>
>>Yes, hundreds of owners who fly competition aerobatics.
>>In competition aerobatics you are constantly and repeatedly going from
>>full throttle to idle. There is no in between setting.
>>The only time you fly at a given power setting for any length of time is
>>when you are flying from one contest to another.
>
> Also maneuvers such as snap rolls produce some pretty stong forces on
> the front seal and bearings when done at full power. That prop is
> like a big gyroscope.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

Which is what I thought it was, John. Thanks. Our learned colleague
mentioned something around 600 hour TBO and I was looking for some reference
to that number in case I'd missed something that had been published
recently.

Cheers,
Shawn

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>> http://www.lycoming.textron.com/support/publications/maintenancePublications/s
>> erviceInstructions/SI1009AR.pdf
>>
>> Look at any "A" engine and read note 6
>
> 6. The reliability and service life of engines can be detrimentally
> affected if they are repeatedly operated at alternating high and low
> power applications which cause extreme changes in cylinder temperatures.
> Flight maneuvers which cause engine overspeed also contribute to
> abnormal wear characteristics that tend to shorten engine life. These
> factors must be considered to establish TBO of aerobatic engines;
> therefore it is the responsibility of the operator to determine the
> percentage of time the engine is used for aerobatics and establish his
> own TBO. The maximum recommended is the time specified in this
> instruction.

In article >,
"ShawnD2112" > wrote:

> Dude, the thing I'm not getting is your assertion about the engine life and
> condition because the experience I'm having with my own engine and those of
> my Pitts colleagues here in the UK is not the same. Engines are making it
> to 1500 hours and are not worn out at 500 or even 750 hours. If you've got
> some genuine information regarding the life of the engine, I'm interested to
> know it. If you don't, you're just speculating on hearsay.

Well Shawn, I don't know how you folks fly, but here in the States, they
don't last that long for Advanced and Unlimited.

Well, there's two things here. The first one is that there was a post
refering to TBO of 600 hours. To me, TBO is an official limit, and I hadn't
heard of one announced by Lycoming, so wanted to make sure I hadn't missed
anything. And, with respect to whether engines make it to 1500 hours or
not, you may be on to something in that most of my mates are at Intermediate
at best, and try to keep the gyro stuff to a minimum if they're flying with
metal props. I'm not hanging out with the Advanced and Unlimited guys but I
could see how they'd be shagging their engines a bit more. There's a Pitts
over here that's offered for sale by a certain airshow performer who the
public loves but the aviation community maintain a distance from. He
doesn't seem to be getting much interest because people have seen him fly
and reckon the airplane and engine're pretty much toast.

Shawn

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "ShawnD2112" > wrote:
>
>> Dude, the thing I'm not getting is your assertion about the engine life
>> and
>> condition because the experience I'm having with my own engine and those
>> of
>> my Pitts colleagues here in the UK is not the same. Engines are making
>> it
>> to 1500 hours and are not worn out at 500 or even 750 hours. If you've
>> got
>> some genuine information regarding the life of the engine, I'm interested
>> to
>> know it. If you don't, you're just speculating on hearsay.
>
> Well Shawn, I don't know how you folks fly, but here in the States, they
> don't last that long for Advanced and Unlimited.

In article >,
"ShawnD2112" > wrote:

> Well, there's two things here. The first one is that there was a post
> refering to TBO of 600 hours. To me, TBO is an official limit, and I hadn't
> heard of one announced by Lycoming, so wanted to make sure I hadn't missed
> anything. And, with respect to whether engines make it to 1500 hours or
> not, you may be on to something in that most of my mates are at Intermediate
> at best, and try to keep the gyro stuff to a minimum if they're flying with
> metal props. I'm not hanging out with the Advanced and Unlimited guys but I
> could see how they'd be shagging their engines a bit more. There's a Pitts
> over here that's offered for sale by a certain airshow performer who the
> public loves but the aviation community maintain a distance from. He
> doesn't seem to be getting much interest because people have seen him fly
> and reckon the airplane and engine're pretty much toast.

And that is why airshow performers seek sponsors!
You fly, they pay the bills.
Not only do they pay for your overhauls, they pay for spare engine(s).
You cannot display their brand if you are not flying while you wait for
the engine shop to finish the job.