I just noticed this today:

AIM 5-2-2. Taxi Clearance

Pilots on IFR flight plans should communicate with the control tower on the
appropriate ground control or clearance delivery frequency, prior to
starting engines, to receive engine start time, taxi and/or clearance
information.

---------------------------------

In the Azores, Portugal, when I checked out at a local flying club, it was
mandatory to contact the control tower prior to engine start, even when
flying VFR. (And it was mandatory to receive a clearance to "start
engines" before doing so).

However, in the US, I was not taught, nor have I ever called in "prior to
starting engines" unless that requirement was explicitly stated on the ATIS
(as it has been occasionally at KBOS).

Is this a holdover from former times? Or something else altogether?


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I think this is aimed at the turbine crowd, not the piston pilots, although
the AIM does not make any distinction.

Bob Gardner

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
>I just noticed this today:
>
> AIM 5-2-2. Taxi Clearance
>
> Pilots on IFR flight plans should communicate with the control tower on
> the
> appropriate ground control or clearance delivery frequency, prior to
> starting engines, to receive engine start time, taxi and/or clearance
> information.
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> In the Azores, Portugal, when I checked out at a local flying club, it was
> mandatory to contact the control tower prior to engine start, even when
> flying VFR. (And it was mandatory to receive a clearance to "start
> engines" before doing so).
>
> However, in the US, I was not taught, nor have I ever called in "prior to
> starting engines" unless that requirement was explicitly stated on the
> ATIS
> (as it has been occasionally at KBOS).
>
> Is this a holdover from former times? Or something else altogether?
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

In Europe start up permission is always mandatory at controlled airfields.
Not just for turbines, also for piston...


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> I think this is aimed at the turbine crowd, not the piston pilots,
although
> the AIM does not make any distinction.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I just noticed this today:
> >
> > AIM 5-2-2. Taxi Clearance
> >
> > Pilots on IFR flight plans should communicate with the control tower on
> > the
> > appropriate ground control or clearance delivery frequency, prior to
> > starting engines, to receive engine start time, taxi and/or clearance
> > information.
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> > In the Azores, Portugal, when I checked out at a local flying club, it
was
> > mandatory to contact the control tower prior to engine start, even when
> > flying VFR. (And it was mandatory to receive a clearance to "start
> > engines" before doing so).
> >
> > However, in the US, I was not taught, nor have I ever called in "prior
to
> > starting engines" unless that requirement was explicitly stated on the
> > ATIS
> > (as it has been occasionally at KBOS).
> >
> > Is this a holdover from former times? Or something else altogether?
> >
> >
> > Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
>
>

"TMG" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> In Europe start up permission is always mandatory at controlled airfields.
> Not just for turbines, also for piston...
>

What's the reasoning behind that, if any?

TMG wrote:

> In Europe start up permission is always mandatory at controlled airfields.
> Not just for turbines, also for piston...

Poor souls.

I was learning to fly at the Ramstein Aero Club, at Ramstein AB, West
Germany when this policy was started, sometime between 1984 and 1986. I
don't know for certain why they started making everyone from our F-4E
Phantom pilots on down to student pilots in Piper Tomahawks request
permission to start engines from the tower, but I'd heard it was intended as
a security measure to help prevent terrorists from attempting to steal an
aircraft. That would be Red Army Faction, not Al Queda, way back then. I'd
also thought back then that it was just a local policy at Ramstein, or
perhaps throughout USAFE, but from the orginal posting in this thread I see
that it was impemented all over Europe.
Scott Wilson


On 24-Sep-2005, "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> > In Europe start up permission is always mandatory at controlled
> > airfields.
> > Not just for turbines, also for piston...
> >
>
> What's the reasoning behind that, if any?

I'm based in California, but I've flown from controlled fields in both
Ireland (EIWF) and Sweden (ESSB) and I never had to get an engine start
clearance. So I'm not so sure that this is a pan European thing.

-Brenor

Europe uses a system of airport and airway slots to avoid delays. If
your airway or airport slot has expired, a new one must be
renegotiated. Once you taxi in Europe, you takeoff as soon as you get
to the runway. So to avoid delays at the end of the runway, one must
call pre-start for clearance and to permit ATC coordination.

Lynne

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "TMG" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > In Europe start up permission is always mandatory at controlled airfields.
> > Not just for turbines, also for piston...
> >
>
> What's the reasoning behind that, if any?

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "TMG" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>
>> In Europe start up permission is always mandatory at controlled
>> airfields.
>> Not just for turbines, also for piston...
>>
>
> What's the reasoning behind that, if any?
>

They seem to have a rigid system of airways between city pairs so ground
holds are fairly common.

Mike
MU-2

I always call on the handheld to get my clearance prior to engine start.
That way, if there is a delay, I am not paying to keep the engine
running while I wait.

I teach my students to call before engine start to get their clearance
(controlled fields). You are allowed to call up to two hours before your
proposed departure, so why waste your gas waiting for the clearance to be
issued?

However, I have yet to ever receive a 'start time' from any clearance
delivery. They just say 'contact ground when ready to taxi'.

Also, if you have a handheld, you can get your clearance using it instead of
using your aircraft battery, so on that cold day, you will have every ounce
of juice the battery can deliver for the start.

Russ MacDonald

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
>I think this is aimed at the turbine crowd, not the piston pilots, although
>the AIM does not make any distinction.
>
> Bob Gardner
>
> "Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I just noticed this today:
>>
>> AIM 5-2-2. Taxi Clearance
>>
>> Pilots on IFR flight plans should communicate with the control tower on
>> the
>> appropriate ground control or clearance delivery frequency, prior to
>> starting engines, to receive engine start time, taxi and/or clearance
>> information.
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>>
>> In the Azores, Portugal, when I checked out at a local flying club, it
>> was
>> mandatory to contact the control tower prior to engine start, even when
>> flying VFR. (And it was mandatory to receive a clearance to "start
>> engines" before doing so).
>>
>> However, in the US, I was not taught, nor have I ever called in "prior to
>> starting engines" unless that requirement was explicitly stated on the
>> ATIS
>> (as it has been occasionally at KBOS).
>>
>> Is this a holdover from former times? Or something else altogether?
>>
>>
>> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)
>
>

On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:32:36 GMT, john smith > wrote:

>I always call on the handheld to get my clearance prior to engine start.
>That way, if there is a delay, I am not paying to keep the engine
>running while I wait.

The way I've been taught, that is certainly your option. My posting was
that many, including myself, do not do so routinely and that appears to be
in conflict with the AIM.

In the US, have you ever received a clearance that includes a clearance to
start you engine? (which was the thrust of my original question). The
only time that has occurred to me was at BOS and only at a time when the
requirement to call CD prior to engine start was clearly stated on the
ATIS.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Santa Monica (KSMO) requires you to call ground prior to engine start.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:32:36 GMT, john smith > wrote:
>
> >I always call on the handheld to get my clearance prior to engine start.
> >That way, if there is a delay, I am not paying to keep the engine
> >running while I wait.
>
> The way I've been taught, that is certainly your option. My posting was
> that many, including myself, do not do so routinely and that appears to be
> in conflict with the AIM.
>
> In the US, have you ever received a clearance that includes a clearance to
> start you engine? (which was the thrust of my original question). The
> only time that has occurred to me was at BOS and only at a time when the
> requirement to call CD prior to engine start was clearly stated on the
> ATIS.
>
>
> Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Lynne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Santa Monica (KSMO) requires you to call ground prior to engine start.
>

So just how do they require that?

"Russ MacDonald" > wrote in message
news:_WmZe.2255$WT3.2244@trnddc03...
>
> I teach my students to call before engine start to get their clearance
> (controlled fields). You are allowed to call up to two hours before your
> proposed departure, so why waste your gas waiting for the clearance to be
> issued?
>

Allowed by whom? The strip doesn't print until 30 minutes prior to the
proposed departure time.

It is broadcasted on the ATIS. If you do not call for engine start, and
simply call ground to taxi, you WILL be told to hold your position. The
airport is very tight, so they don't want aircraft that do not have
their IFR release blocking access to the runway.

In other words, when you call for start clearance, your IFR release is
coordinated.

Lynne

"Lynne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> It is broadcasted on the ATIS.
>

What is broadcast on the ATIS?


>
> If you do not call for engine start, and
> simply call ground to taxi, you WILL be told to hold your position. The
> airport is very tight, so they don't want aircraft that do not have
> their IFR release blocking access to the runway.
>
> In other words, when you call for start clearance, your IFR release is
> coordinated.
>

So they don't taxi IFR aircraft until they've been released. That's not a
requirement to call ground prior to engine start.

On 24 Sep 2005 19:16:45 -0700, "Lynne" > wrote:

>Santa Monica (KSMO) requires you to call ground prior to engine start.

But the requirement to do so is, according to another post of yours, so
stated on the ATIS at SMO.

My point is that it seems to be an AIM requirement that is not generally
followed in the US, in the absence of a specific instruction (e.g. on the
ATIS).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I think what you are forgetting is that the AIM is not regulatory. From
the looks of it, it is as if you're expecting to get a violation if you
start your engine prior to calling ground. That just won't happen.

This thread has gotten out of hand. The bottom line is that if you
start your engine, then get your clearance, then call ground, it may
end up wasting your time with the engine running if there are delays.
But, no matter what, you will never get in "trouble" for starting your
engine prior to getting the clearance, or talking to ground.

Lynne

On 25 Sep 2005 11:02:02 -0700, "Lynne" > wrote:

>I think what you are forgetting is that the AIM is not regulatory. From
>the looks of it, it is as if you're expecting to get a violation if you
>start your engine prior to calling ground. That just won't happen.
>
>This thread has gotten out of hand. The bottom line is that if you
>start your engine, then get your clearance, then call ground, it may
>end up wasting your time with the engine running if there are delays.
>But, no matter what, you will never get in "trouble" for starting your
>engine prior to getting the clearance, or talking to ground.
>
>Lynne

It's not clear to whom you are responding, but if you are claiming that I
am "expecting to get a violation" then your inference is completely wrong.

My question, to which no one has yet responded, was why this mostly ignored
AIM paragraph is present.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Brenor Brophy" > wrote in message
...
> I'm based in California, but I've flown from controlled fields in both
> Ireland (EIWF) and Sweden (ESSB) and I never had to get an engine start
> clearance. So I'm not so sure that this is a pan European thing.
>
> -Brenor

It depends on each airfield and how they want to organise things, therefore
it is important to either read the latest airfield information or check out
the ATIS before start.

> They seem to have a rigid system of airways between city pairs so ground
> holds are fairly common.

more important: the slots at the airports! Sometimes, it's so crowded they
don't let you take off because they know traffic at your destination is too
heavy for you to fit in :-/

Pat

"Lynne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I think what you are forgetting is that the AIM is not regulatory. From
> the looks of it, it is as if you're expecting to get a violation if you
> start your engine prior to calling ground. That just won't happen.
>
> This thread has gotten out of hand. The bottom line is that if you
> start your engine, then get your clearance, then call ground, it may
> end up wasting your time with the engine running if there are delays.
> But, no matter what, you will never get in "trouble" for starting your
> engine prior to getting the clearance, or talking to ground.
>

Or, in other words, there's no requirement to call ground prior to engine
start.

john smith wrote:
> I always call on the handheld to get my clearance prior to engine start.
> That way, if there is a delay, I am not paying to keep the engine
> running while I wait.

That's a difference between an owner and renter mindset. I always start first to
give the oil a little more time to get limbered and warm.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Lynne" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Santa Monica (KSMO) requires you to call ground prior to engine start.
>>
>
>
> So just how do they require that?


- CURFEW: NO ENGINE STARTS OR DEPS EXPECT PPR LIFEGUARD FLTS 2300-0700 MON-FRI
AND 2300-0800 WKENDS.

"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1127763096.162487@sj-nntpcache-5...
>
> - CURFEW: NO ENGINE STARTS OR DEPS EXPECT PPR LIFEGUARD FLTS 2300-0700
> MON-FRI AND 2300-0800 WKENDS.
>

The tower is closed during those hours.

So.. if the ATIS says "contact ground/clearance" prior to engine start,
does that constitute instruction from "air traffic control" which must
be complied with except in an emergency?

and is not obtaining (and complying with any instructions on) the ATIS
failure to obtain all relevant information regarding the proposed flight?

Can you reconcile these concepts (loosely paraphrased from the part 91
rules regarding ops) with what you are saying that there is "no
requirement to call ground prior to engine start" when in some
circumstances there appears to be?

Dave

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Lynne" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>I think what you are forgetting is that the AIM is not regulatory. From
>>the looks of it, it is as if you're expecting to get a violation if you
>>start your engine prior to calling ground. That just won't happen.
>>
>>This thread has gotten out of hand. The bottom line is that if you
>>start your engine, then get your clearance, then call ground, it may
>>end up wasting your time with the engine running if there are delays.
>>But, no matter what, you will never get in "trouble" for starting your
>>engine prior to getting the clearance, or talking to ground.
>>
>
>
> Or, in other words, there's no requirement to call ground prior to engine
> start.
>
>

"Dave S" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> So.. if the ATIS says "contact ground/clearance" prior to engine start,
> does that constitute instruction from "air traffic control" which must be
> complied with except in an emergency?
>

No. FAR 91.123(b) states, "Except in an emergency, no person may operate an
aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic
control is exercised." Ramps are not areas in which air traffic control is
exercised. Note that a taxi clearance is only required to operate on a
runway or taxiway. If I can taxi on a ramp without contacting ground
control I can certainly start an engine without calling them.


>
> and is not obtaining (and complying with any instructions on) the ATIS
> failure to obtain all relevant information regarding the proposed flight?
>

Not obtaining it might be, not complying with it is not.


>
> Can you reconcile these concepts (loosely paraphrased from the part 91
> rules regarding ops) with what you are saying that there is "no
> requirement to call ground prior to engine start" when in some
> circumstances there appears to be?
>

If there is a requirement to call ground prior to engine start it will be
found in the FARs. You will find no such requirement there.

The local flying field here has a statement on the ATIS telling departures
to five specific airports to advise ground control five minutes prior to
engine start. It's for flow control purposes, the five airports are those
for which a flow release is required. The only penalty for not calling
ground prior to engine start is the potential fuel wasted on the ground
waiting for the release time.