"Yes, I do want a park at Meigs Field," Daley said.
But there are questions about whether that's financially feasible.
CBS 2 poured through thousands of pages of city and state documents
obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. They detail the
history of pollution at the site.
We showed them to experts, including a Naperville lawyer experienced in
environmental law.
"Airports are notorious for all kinds of petroleum products being
dumped there. So you've got very, very, very dirty soil. It really is a
toxic waste dump," said environmental lawyer Shawn Collins.

A map prepared by the city's own environmental consultant shows where
soil tests found toxins called polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons or
PNAs at levels that exceed Environmental Protection Agency acceptable
standards.
"These are known and suspected to cause cancer in humans," said Wilma
Subra, a nationally recognized environmental scientist, who has served
on EPA advisory committees.
"They're very, very deep, and it's very toxic," Subra said.
The chemicals are the by-product of aircraft emissions, refueling
operations, and spills that occurred over 50 years, and they were found
up to 9 feet below ground.

A map from another city consultant's report shows where the park
district removed just 9 inches of contaminated soil. It was replaced
with a protective fabric and clean top soil.
Subra says the 9-inch solution was just a cover up.
"They know that everything below the 9 inches is contaminated and they
are not addressing that," she said.
And what's below those 9 inches is important because future plans for
Northerly Island may include wetlands, sand dunes, a wildlife preserve
and even a river dug through the property.
"What are you going to do with the environmental problems you now
unleash?" Collins said.

But that's not all. Behind this fence, there was a fuel spill from an
underground tank leak in 1993.
The state EPA later designated the leak as a "high priority" clean-up
project but didn't get Meigs to clean it up before the airport was shut
down.
"For an environmental leak from an underground storage tank to go
unremediated for 10 years is really a disgrace," Collins said. "The
environment is at stake. Human health may be at stake."
Subra said tests done by a city consultant showed that a toxic chemical
at one location was 300 times the acceptable limit.
After the park district inherited the problem, once again it covered
the former underground tank site with fabric, 9 inches of top soil and
fenced in the area.
"Just putting a fence around it and letting it seep and flow and be
discharged into the soil, the land and water is inappropriate," Subra
said.

The park district declined to go on camera, but its environmental
consultant says that "we are adequately protecting human health and the
environment with the barriers that are in place."
"Redevelopment will dictate how each of these areas of contamination
are managed," he said.
"It may be impossible to do financially," Subra said.
"We don't think it's overwhelming," Daley said.

CBS 2's Pam Zekman showed the mayor what the park district's own
consultants have found and their warning that additional clean up may
be needed.
"Oh yeah, anytime you open any land up you have to remediate. You have
to do testing. You have to do borings. And that will all be public
knowledge when we do it," Daley said.
"Why not do that before the airport was destroyed?" Zekman asked.

"Because the court would enjoin us and would enjoin you immediately,"
Daley said.

A court injunction could have delayed or stopped the project. For now,
the park district's consultant says monthly inspections must be done
to be sure the nine inch barrier is not penetrated."

GA Santa Strikes Again !, JG

> "Yes, I do want a park at Meigs Field," Daley said.

> "These are known and suspected to cause cancer in humans," said Wilma
> Subra, a nationally recognized environmental scientist, who has served
> on EPA advisory committees.
> "They're very, very deep, and it's very toxic," Subra said.
> The chemicals are the by-product of aircraft emissions, refueling
> operations, and spills that occurred over 50 years, and they were found
> up to 9 feet below ground.

Sounds like this Subra woman is a nut job. Even though I'm glad King
Daley is going to be the target of her wrath, I don't want the good
name of General Aviation -- already challenged on so many fronts -- to
be associated with these environmental wackos in any way.

"Aircraft emissions"? Please. What the hell is THAT? Maybe
0.0000000000001% of auto emissions?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > "Yes, I do want a park at Meigs Field," Daley said.
>
> > "These are known and suspected to cause cancer in humans," said Wilma
> > Subra, a nationally recognized environmental scientist, who has served
> > on EPA advisory committees.
> > "They're very, very deep, and it's very toxic," Subra said.
> > The chemicals are the by-product of aircraft emissions, refueling
> > operations, and spills that occurred over 50 years, and they were found
> > up to 9 feet below ground.
>
> Sounds like this Subra woman is a nut job. Even though I'm glad King
> Daley is going to be the target of her wrath, I don't want the good
> name of General Aviation -- already challenged on so many fronts -- to
> be associated with these environmental wackos in any way.
>
> "Aircraft emissions"? Please. What the hell is THAT? Maybe
> 0.0000000000001% of auto emissions?

All the tasty Non-catalytic converted NOx and SOx goodies. Plus plenty
of
Benzo-**** underground. All we want from GA Santa is a super-fund site.

JG

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

wrote:
> The chemicals are the by-product of aircraft emissions, refueling
> operations, and spills that occurred over 50 years, and they were found
> up to 9 feet below ground.

If you dug down into any number of 50 year-old (or greater) backyards
you's probably be shocked at the concotion of contaminats to be found.
I would bet any money that the amounts of contaminats from various
airports are but a blip in the noise level compared to all the contaminats
from homes and businesses across the country.

But why inject logic in to the maelstrom.

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> The chemicals are the by-product of aircraft emissions, refueling
>> operations, and spills that occurred over 50 years, and they were found
>> up to 9 feet below ground.
>
> If you dug down into any number of 50 year-old (or greater) backyards
> you's probably be shocked at the concotion of contaminats to be found.
> I would bet any money that the amounts of contaminats from various
> airports are but a blip in the noise level compared to all the contaminats
> from homes and businesses across the country.
>
> But why inject logic in to the maelstrom.
>

Probably just contamination from Lake Michigan! Daley deserves all the hell
he will get from this deal.

------------------------------------
DW

wrote:
> <snip>

Yeah, because what's underneath CGX is any worse than what's underneath
ORD, LAX, MIA, etc. Get off our case. If Daley hadn't ripped the
airport up, no one would have cared.

Personally, I hope if GA gets a bad name over this, that Daley loses his
dream of a park and gets stuck with the cleanup fees, plus whatever the
FAA decides to stick him with. I lived in Chicago until this year, and
still consider myself fortunate to have landed at CGX multiple times.

> Personally, I hope if GA gets a bad name over this, that Daley loses his
> dream of a park and gets stuck with the cleanup fees, plus whatever the
> FAA decides to stick him with.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case: Aviation gets another black
eye, and the FAA ends up being liable for "contamination" at every airport
in America. Imagine how happy that would make the environmental wackos?
Nothing like adding another 6,000 "superfund clean-up sites" to ensure their
future employment indefinitely...

> I lived in Chicago until this year, and still consider myself fortunate to
> have landed at CGX multiple times.

Me, too. I flew into Meigs on several occasions, and they were all
memorable. What a great airport! What a shame to lose it...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article <Aoskf.600081$_o.157508@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Worst case: Aviation gets another black
> eye, and the FAA ends up being liable for "contamination" at every airport
> in America.

I wouldn't think that a likely scenario since the FAA doesn't run/operate/own
any airports.

--
Bob Noel
New NHL? what a joke

>> Worst case: Aviation gets another black
>> eye, and the FAA ends up being liable for "contamination" at every
>> airport
>> in America.
>
> I wouldn't think that a likely scenario since the FAA doesn't
> run/operate/own
> any airports.

I hope you're right, but.... The FAA is the over-arching, controlling
agency here.

EPA doesn't own any old, abandoned gas stations (with leaky underground
tanks), but they're responsible for cleaning them up, right?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > "Yes, I do want a park at Meigs Field," Daley said.
>
> > "These are known and suspected to cause cancer in humans," said Wilma
> > Subra, a nationally recognized environmental scientist, who has served
> > on EPA advisory committees.
> > "They're very, very deep, and it's very toxic," Subra said.
> > The chemicals are the by-product of aircraft emissions, refueling
> > operations, and spills that occurred over 50 years, and they were found
> > up to 9 feet below ground.
>
> Sounds like this Subra woman is a nut job. Even though I'm glad King
> Daley is going to be the target of her wrath, I don't want the good
> name of General Aviation -- already challenged on so many fronts -- to
> be associated with these environmental wackos in any way.

Daley's wife is one of those eco-wackos. The Meigs park was her pet
project.

Why bother with cleanup? All of those dope-smoking rock fans going to
concerts there will ingest far more contaminants than is in the ground,
anyhow.

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

In article <%Iskf.600200$_o.417202@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> EPA doesn't own any old, abandoned gas stations (with leaky underground
> tanks), but they're responsible for cleaning them up, right?

even when the owner is known?

--
Bob Noel
New NHL? what a joke

Jay Honeck wrote:

> EPA doesn't own any old, abandoned gas stations (with leaky underground
> tanks), but they're responsible for cleaning them up, right?

I don't think so. Mainly they force the owners to clean them up.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

Meigs Field is a man made island created in the 1930s. Who knows where
all the fill came from so it isn't surprising that contamination can be
found deep in the soil.

Let's be honest. There was a time in the not too distant past where we
were not that careful about spills at airports, railroad yards, truck
depots, service stations, tank farms, etc. etc.

"kontiki" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> The chemicals are the by-product of aircraft emissions, refueling
>> operations, and spills that occurred over 50 years, and they were
>> found
>> up to 9 feet below ground.
>
> If you dug down into any number of 50 year-old (or greater) backyards
> you's probably be shocked at the concotion of contaminats to be found.
> I would bet any money that the amounts of contaminats from various
> airports are but a blip in the noise level compared to all the
> contaminats
> from homes and businesses across the country.
>
> But why inject logic in to the maelstrom.
>

>>>>> "k" == kontiki > writes:

k> If you dug down into any number of 50 year-old (or greater)
k> backyards you's probably be shocked at the concotion of
k> contaminats to be found. I would bet any money that the
k> amounts of contaminats from various airports are but a blip in
k> the noise level compared to all the contaminats from homes and
k> businesses across the country.

k> But why inject logic in to the maelstrom.

"Why inject logic"...we don't know, since you didn't inject logic, but
rather fairly wild, unsubstantiated speculation and conjecture.

"sfb" > wrote

> Let's be honest. There was a time in the not too distant past where we
> were not that careful about spills at airports, railroad yards, truck
> depots, service stations, tank farms, etc. etc.
>
Shoot, I've seen grading equipment leaking hydraulic fluid by the gallons,
and still keep on working. It could be some of that, too.
--
Jim in NC

Bob Fry wrote:
> "Why inject logic"...we don't know, since you didn't inject logic, but
> rather fairly wild, unsubstantiated speculation and conjecture.

Forgive me... I wasn't aware that you fell off of a turnip truck last night.

>> EPA doesn't own any old, abandoned gas stations (with leaky underground
>> tanks), but they're responsible for cleaning them up, right?
>
> even when the owner is known?

Most of the owners were little mom & pop gas stations that couldn't afford
the construction costs, and went bankrupt, leaving we tax-payers to pay for
this boondoggle.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

JGrove: You've got it all wrong. The positive economic impact of the
environmental mediation project could be huge! Think of the jobs.

Ultimate cleanup costs should be incorporated into the economic "benefit"
studies that are thrown around everytime a GA airport comes under
scrutiny.

>>
by "Jay Honeck" <jjhoneck@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 4, 2005 at 02:43 AM


>> Worst case: Aviation gets another black
>> eye, and the FAA ends up being liable for "contamination" at every
>> airport
>> in America.
>
> I wouldn't think that a likely scenario since the FAA doesn't
> run/operate/own
> any airports.

I hope you're right, but.... The FAA is the over-arching, controlling
agency here.

EPA doesn't own any old, abandoned gas stations (with leaky underground
tanks), but they're responsible for cleaning them up, right?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"<<


Actually EPA is NOT responsible. They (like the FAA) only set
regulations. In a superfund cleanup, Potentially Responsible Parties
(PRPs) are identified, and then sued for the cleanup costs. Litigation
usually goes on for years.

In this case, I would expect the owners (city of Chicago) and businesses
responsible for causing the pollution (e.g. FBOs) to be sued.

Its not an anti-GA thing at all. Other highly polluting industries have
been named as PRPs in many Superfund suits.

As usual, I can count on the AOPA to set matters straight!

Here, on the GA Serving America website, is the straight dope. You see,
the planes are responsible for PROTECTING "Mother Earth" against pollution
from ships, for example. We need to put many more small planes in the air
to restore a pristeen environment!



http://www.gaservingamerica.com/also_working_for/environmental.htm

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> As usual, I can count on the AOPA to set matters straight!
>
> Here, on the GA Serving America website, is the straight dope. You see,
> the planes are responsible for PROTECTING "Mother Earth" against pollution
> from ships, for example. We need to put many more small planes in the air
> to restore a pristeen environment!
>
>
>
> http://www.gaservingamerica.com/also_working_for/environmental.htm
>

The funny thing about many of the AOPA examples used as an example of the
"benefit" of GA is that the examples are useless in so far as justifying GA
as a benefit for the average person. Rather, the examples merely point out
that it might be worthwhile for a government entity to have one or two
aircraft for occasional use. Why we continue to shoot ouselves in the foot
is beyond me.

Tom wrote:
by "Tom Conner" > Dec 5, 2005 at 05:34 PM




The funny thing about many of the AOPA examples used as an example of the
"benefit" of GA is that the examples are useless in so far as justifying
GA
as a benefit for the average person. Rather, the examples merely point
out
that it might be worthwhile for a government entity to have one or two
aircraft for occasional use. Why we continue to shoot ouselves in the
foot
is beyond me.<<

I can't understand it either, but I find AOPA "reasoning" to be highly
entertaining! Some of their arguments go beyond the absurd. Any fan of
"Monty Python's Flying Circus" owes Phil Boyer a huge debt of gratitude
for stepping into fill the void left by this famous comedy troupe.

Unfortunately for pilots, he apparently believes his own propaganda (e.g.
"I fly a C-150, fear me!") and seems utterly oblivious to actual reality.
He comes across as a clown to anyone not brainwashed with the nonsense that
comes from the various AOPA organizations, including "GA Serving Amerika."


He will lose his fight against user fees, just like he lost Megis after
"taking on" Daly. He might lose on the ADIZ issue also. I really love it
when he adopts the combative stance, and "takes on" US attorneys, anti
noise groups, governors, etc.

But, what can you expect from a TV executive who made a career out of the
superficial and artificial world of broadcast television.

Bob Noel > wrote in
:

> I wouldn't think that a likely scenario since the FAA doesn't
> run/operate/own any airports.

I believe they operate Washington National (Reagan) and Dulles.

The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority is an independent body
created by the Commonwealth of Virginia and the District of Columbia. It
has been approved by the U.S. Congress to operate and maintain Ronald
Reagan Washington National Airport and Washington Dulles International
Airport. The Authority is a public body, corporate and politic and is
independent of all other bodies. It is not an agency of the Commonwealth
of Virginia or the District of Columbia, nor is it a federal agency.

http://www.mwaa.com/index.htm

"John Godwin" > wrote in message
...
> Bob Noel > wrote in
> :
>
>> I wouldn't think that a likely scenario since the FAA doesn't
>> run/operate/own any airports.
>
> I believe they operate Washington National (Reagan) and Dulles.
>

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
>
> Daley's wife is one of those eco-wackos. The Meigs park was her pet
> project.
>
> Why bother with cleanup? All of those dope-smoking rock fans going to
> concerts there will ingest far more contaminants than is in the ground,
> anyhow.

The arena is on the northern end of xxCGX, in the old "crash zone".
Looking forward to the 2006 season, JG

Morgans wrote:
> "sfb" > wrote
>
> > Let's be honest. There was a time in the not too distant past where we
> > were not that careful about spills at airports, railroad yards, truck
> > depots, service stations, tank farms, etc. etc.
> >
> Shoot, I've seen grading equipment leaking hydraulic fluid by the gallons,
> and still keep on working. It could be some of that, too.

Thats the ticket, it was hydralic fluid from the dozers craving all the
XXX's.

> --
> Jim in NC

Rachel wrote:
> wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> Yeah, because what's underneath CGX is any worse than what's underneath
> ORD, LAX, MIA, etc. Get off our case. If Daley hadn't ripped the
> airport up, no one would have cared.

But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.

>
> Personally, I hope if GA gets a bad name over this, that Daley loses his
> dream of a park and gets stuck with the cleanup fees, plus whatever the
> FAA decides to stick him with. I lived in Chicago until this year, and
> still consider myself fortunate to have landed at CGX multiple times.

wrote:
> Rachel wrote:
>
wrote:
>>
>>><snip>
>>
>>Yeah, because what's underneath CGX is any worse than what's underneath
>>ORD, LAX, MIA, etc. Get off our case. If Daley hadn't ripped the
>>airport up, no one would have cared.
>
>
> But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.

Oh, I wasn't aware that I was landing in water at CGX.

<yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Sounds like this Subra woman is a nut job. Even though I'm glad King
> Daley is going to be the target of her wrath, I don't want the good
> name of General Aviation -- already challenged on so many fronts -- to
> be associated with these environmental wackos in any way.

I don't know anything about Subra and the specifics of what she said,
but an airport apron is essentially the same as a gas station -- lots
of fuel spills, oil spills, etc -- and former gas station sites can be
very expensive to clean up and redevelop. We're also the last ones
still using leaded gas, and lead levels can be a bit high even off away
from the apron as a result.

I think it's fair to acknowledge that redeveloping an airport is going
to be an expensive job.


All the best,


David

wrote:

> But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.

Chicago used to pull its water from the river and dump its sewage in the lake.
This has changed?

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

David Megginson wrote:
> Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> Sounds like this Subra woman is a nut job. Even though I'm glad King
>> Daley is going to be the target of her wrath, I don't want the good
>> name of General Aviation -- already challenged on so many fronts -- to
>> be associated with these environmental wackos in any way.
>
> I don't know anything about Subra and the specifics of what she said,
> but an airport apron is essentially the same as a gas station -- lots
> of fuel spills, oil spills, etc -- and former gas station sites can be
> very expensive to clean up and redevelop. We're also the last ones
> still using leaded gas, and lead levels can be a bit high even off away
> from the apron as a result.

http://www.leanweb.org

She helped us in getting the state permit revoked for a local power
plant and forcing them to the bargaining table which they previously
refused to do... CLECO nearly filed bankruptcy, I believe CALPINE is
about to, they are partners in it...

"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:Gkslf.2251$Kg5.1072@trndny06...
> wrote:
>
> > But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.
>
> Chicago used to pull its water from the river and dump its sewage in the
lake.
> This has changed?
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
to
> your slightly older self.

Chicago gets its water from cribs a couple of miles out in the lake. During
heavy rain they dump raw sewage into the river and open the locks to let it
run into the lake. Many beaches are closed for extensive periods in the
summer due to you know what. They call it some fancy name but the truth is
it is crap in the water.

Rachel wrote:
> wrote:
> > Rachel wrote:
> >
> wrote:
> >>
> >>><snip>
> >>
> >>Yeah, because what's underneath CGX is any worse than what's underneath
> >>ORD, LAX, MIA, etc. Get off our case. If Daley hadn't ripped the
> >>airport up, no one would have cared.
> >
> >
> > But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.
>
> Oh, I wasn't aware that I was landing in water at CGX.

Check a map, water on all sides, and your benzo-xxx will ooze thru the
soil and hit
water eventually, nice job Wright Bros. !

>
> <yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:Gkslf.2251$Kg5.1072@trndny06...
> > wrote:
> >
> > > But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.
> >
> > Chicago used to pull its water from the river and dump its sewage in the
> lake.
> > This has changed?
> >
> > George Patterson
> > Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
> to
> > your slightly older self.
>
> Chicago gets its water from cribs a couple of miles out in the lake. During
> heavy rain they dump raw sewage into the river and open the locks to let it
> run into the lake.

The last opening was 3 years ago. The deep tunnel and reservoir project
was built
to halt this.

Many beaches are closed for extensive periods in the
> summer due to you know what. They call it some fancy name but the truth is
> it is crap in the water.

Mostly storm sewer overflow, little solid matter visible.

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:Gkslf.2251$Kg5.1072@trndny06...
> > wrote:
> >
> > > But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.
> >
> > Chicago used to pull its water from the river and dump its sewage in the
> lake.
> > This has changed?
> >
> > George Patterson
> > Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
> to
> > your slightly older self.
>
> Chicago gets its water from cribs a couple of miles out in the lake. During
> heavy rain they dump raw sewage into the river and open the locks to let it
> run into the lake.

The last opening occured 3 years ago. The deep tunnel and reservoir
system was
built to halt this.

Many beaches are closed for extensive periods in the
> summer due to you know what. They call it some fancy name but the truth is
> it is crap in the water.

No solids visible, just storm sewer discharge.

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:Gkslf.2251$Kg5.1072@trndny06...
> > wrote:
> >
> > > But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.
> >
> > Chicago used to pull its water from the river and dump its sewage in the
> lake.
> > This has changed?
> >
> > George Patterson
> > Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
> to
> > your slightly older self.
>
> Chicago gets its water from cribs a couple of miles out in the lake. During
> heavy rain they dump raw sewage into the river and open the locks to let it
> run into the lake.

The last opening was 3 years ago. The deep tunnel and reservoir project
was built
to halt this.

Many beaches are closed for extensive periods in the
> summer due to you know what. They call it some fancy name but the truth is
> it is crap in the water.

Mostly storm sewer overflow, little solid matter visible.

Rachel wrote:
> wrote:
> > Rachel wrote:
> >
> wrote:
> >>
> >>><snip>
> >>
> >>Yeah, because what's underneath CGX is any worse than what's underneath
> >>ORD, LAX, MIA, etc. Get off our case. If Daley hadn't ripped the
> >>airport up, no one would have cared.
> >
> >
> > But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.
>
> Oh, I wasn't aware that I was landing in water at CGX.

Check a map, water on all sides, and your benzo-xxx will ooze thru the
soil and hit
water eventually, nice job Wright Bros. !

>
> <yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> news:Gkslf.2251$Kg5.1072@trndny06...
> > wrote:
> >
> > > But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.
> >
> > Chicago used to pull its water from the river and dump its sewage in the
> lake.
> > This has changed?
> >
> > George Patterson
> > Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
> to
> > your slightly older self.
>
> Chicago gets its water from cribs a couple of miles out in the lake. During
> heavy rain they dump raw sewage into the river and open the locks to let it
> run into the lake.

The last opening was 3 years ago. The deep tunnel and reservoir project
was built
to halt this.

Many beaches are closed for extensive periods in the
> summer due to you know what. They call it some fancy name but the truth is
> it is crap in the water.

Mostly storm sewer overflow, little solid matter visible.

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Rachel wrote:
> > wrote:

Do you have to repeat yourself? repeat yourself? repeat yourself? repeat
yourself? repeat yourself? repeat yourself? repeat yourself?

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
> > "George Patterson" > wrote in message
> > news:Gkslf.2251$Kg5.1072@trndny06...
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million
people.
> > >
> > > Chicago used to pull its water from the river and dump its sewage in
the
> > lake.
> > > This has changed?
> > >
> > > George Patterson
> > > Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights
belong
> > to
> > > your slightly older self.
> >
> > Chicago gets its water from cribs a couple of miles out in the lake.
During
> > heavy rain they dump raw sewage into the river and open the locks to let
it
> > run into the lake.
>
> The last opening was 3 years ago. The deep tunnel and reservoir project
> was built
> to halt this.

Not much rain the last three years. The deep tunnel has reached saturation
a time or two which resulted in raw sewage going into the lake.

> Many beaches are closed for extensive periods in the
> > summer due to you know what. They call it some fancy name but the truth
is
> > it is crap in the water.
>
> Mostly storm sewer overflow, little solid matter visible.

Storm water overflow does not cause beaches to be closed. Raw sewage does.
You don't need to see solid matter for the sewage to be present.

>>Dave S: Storm water overflow does not cause beaches to be closed. Raw
sewage
does.
You don't need to see solid matter for the sewage to be present.<<

Older cities have combined sewer/stormwater drainage systems. During
periods of heavy rainfall, CSO (Combined sewer overflows) occur in these
older systems, because the sewage treatment plant can't handle the
increased flow. Therefore, heavy rains do in fact result in raw sewage
draining into lakes, or rivers.

This problem violates EPA discharge laws. The offending systems are often
sued by the EPA to get into compliance. They then enter into Consent
Decrees with EPA to construct suitable upgrades.

>>by Rachel <fakename@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 6, 2005 at 07:30 PM

In article
utaviation.com>,
"Skylune" > wrote:

> >>by Rachel <fakename@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 6, 2005 at 07:30 PM
>
> .
> <yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.<<
>
> I find it amazing that people spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly
> small planes in circles, or in search of hamburgers, for the thrill of it.
>
>
> To each her own, I guess, until they intrude on my rights.
>
>

Well, then why don't "Skyloon" and "jgrove" stop intruding on OUR rights?

--
Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

"Skylune" > wrote in
lkaboutaviation.com:

>>>by Rachel <fakename@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 6, 2005 at 07:30 PM
>
> .
> <yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.<<
>
> I find it amazing that people spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly
> small planes in circles, or in search of hamburgers, for the thrill of it.
>
>
> To each her own, I guess, until they intrude on my rights.

By that logic, you are intruding on my right to enjoy this news
group without snivelling little brats bitching about every thing
GA. Should I sue you?

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Like censorship and not getting support help? Switch to Supernews!
They won't even answer questions through your ISP!

Skylune wrote:
>>>by Rachel <fakename@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 6, 2005 at 07:30 PM
>
>
> .
> <yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.<<
>
> I find it amazing that people spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly
> small planes in circles, or in search of hamburgers, for the thrill of it.
>
>
> To each her own, I guess, until they intrude on my rights.

Who is flying tens of thousands of dollars to fly small planes in search
of hamburgers? Maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about my piloting
experience.

By the way, stop driving your car. The emmissions are bad for me.

"Orval Fairbairn" > wrote \

> Well, then why don't "Skyloon" and "jgrove" stop intruding on OUR rights?
#############################################

Even better a question is, why in the hell do they hang out here?

I guess some people thrive on rejection and abuse.

Pity. What losers.
--
Jim in NC

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 01:36:59 -0500, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>
>"sfb" > wrote
>
>> Let's be honest. There was a time in the not too distant past where we
>> were not that careful about spills at airports, railroad yards, truck
>> depots, service stations, tank farms, etc. etc.
>>
>Shoot, I've seen grading equipment leaking hydraulic fluid by the gallons,
>and still keep on working. It could be some of that, too.

Leak?

I was raided in rural Michigan. In the 40's and 50's they used to
*spray* the gravel roads with brine and/or oil. In many places they
even used what was affectionately known as "drip". Ever hear a car
run on that stuff? <:-)) When changing the oil in cars and tractors
people were encouraged to spread it on the gravel roads to keep the
dust down. The brine truck used to make at least two trips a summer
down our road.

Most of the foundation for older roads around here has two or three
heavy coats of brine.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 13:33:01 GMT, kontiki >
wrote:

>Bob Fry wrote:
>> "Why inject logic"...we don't know, since you didn't inject logic, but
>> rather fairly wild, unsubstantiated speculation and conjecture.
>
>Forgive me... I wasn't aware that you fell off of a turnip truck last night.

He's probably pretty close, particularly for those in the country or
older neighborhoods where now banned herbicides and pesticides were
used copiously.

A news report some years back stated that every year Americans throw
more oil out into the woods and/or roads than was lost in the Exxon
Valdez (sp?) incident.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 01:36:59 -0500, "Morgans" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"sfb" > wrote
> >
> >> Let's be honest. There was a time in the not too distant past where we
> >> were not that careful about spills at airports, railroad yards, truck
> >> depots, service stations, tank farms, etc. etc.
> >>
> >Shoot, I've seen grading equipment leaking hydraulic fluid by the
gallons,
> >and still keep on working. It could be some of that, too.
>
> Leak?
>
> I was raided in rural Michigan. In the 40's and 50's they used to
> *spray* the gravel roads with brine and/or oil. In many places they
> even used what was affectionately known as "drip". Ever hear a car
> run on that stuff? <:-)) When changing the oil in cars and tractors
> people were encouraged to spread it on the gravel roads to keep the
> dust down. The brine truck used to make at least two trips a summer
> down our road.
>
> Most of the foundation for older roads around here has two or three
> heavy coats of brine.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

I remember that being done in the '60s and maybe even into the early 70's.
They would lay down coat of heavy oil then top it with fine gravel. A poor
mans asphalt.

"Roger" wrote

> I was raided in rural Michigan.

I hope that being "raided" didn't set your development back too far! <BFG>

> In the 40's and 50's they used to
> *spray* the gravel roads with brine and/or oil.

I too remember the oil spraying.

> In many places they
> even used what was affectionately known as "drip". Ever hear a car
> run on that stuff? <:-))

Now, I'm clueless when you speak of "drip." What is it?

> When changing the oil in cars and tractors people were encouraged to
spread it on
> the gravel roads to keep the dust down. The brine truck used to make at
least two
> trips a summer down our road.

Brine? As in sal****er, or something else?

> Most of the foundation for older roads around here has two or three
> heavy coats of brine.

That sounds like the tar oil type of stuff, like they still use between
coats of bitumenous (sp?) concrete. (asphalt)

I'm surprised you know about all of this road stuff. Did they really have
cars, back when you grew up? <g,dr>
--
Jim in NC
--
Jim in NC

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
> Leak?
>
> I was raised in rural Michigan. In the 40's and 50's they used to
> *spray* the gravel roads with brine and/or oil. In many places they
> even used what was affectionately known as "drip". Ever hear a car
> run on that stuff? <:-)) When changing the oil in cars and tractors
> people were encouraged to spread it on the gravel roads to keep the
> dust down. The brine truck used to make at least two trips a summer
> down our road.
>
> Most of the foundation for older roads around here has two or three
> heavy coats of brine.
>
> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
> www.rogerhalstead.com

Roger

If it weren't for brine, there'd be no Dow and if there were no Dow there'd
probably be no Midland.

http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/dow.html

I can still hear my boss's voice on the Corporate History piece we did:

"It was in 1897 that Herbert Dow discovered Brine buried in pockets deep
beneath the Earth..."

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ
(Production Intern - Dow Chemical Co. PR Dept. Midland, MI - '84/'85)

Roger > wrote in
:

<Snipola>
> A news report some years back stated that every year Americans throw
> more oil out into the woods and/or roads than was lost in the Exxon
> Valdez (sp?) incident.

I'm not surprised. It's so damned hard to "properly" dispose
of used oil if you do your own changing. I'm speaking of the
common person that liks to change the oil in their car instead
of paying some drop out 50 bucks to not put the drain plug back
in properly.

I live in an LA suburb and I've always had trouble finding a
place to dispose of my used oil. Places either charge, or you
have to use a special certified container to bring it in. Oh,
and of course they just happen to sell these special certified
containers for a "nominal" fee, of course.

I bet 99% of people who change their own oil end up putting the
used stuff in the same bottles they just poured the new stuff
out of. Why can't you turn it in like that? I'm not kidding!
I've been turned away before. "Not approved."

So, I end up with gallons of used oil sitting in my garage until
the city has one of those free "bring anything" trash collection
sites set up for a couple days every few years.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Like censorship and not getting support help? Switch to Supernews!
They won't even answer questions through your ISP!

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Beckman" > wrote
>
>> If it weren't for brine, there'd be no Dow and if there were no Dow
> there'd
>> probably be no Midland.
>
> Harumph. I had no idea that there was brine in Michigan, and that started
> Dow. Learn something new every day. Some days. I wouldn't want to be
> "too" smart. <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

Little known and lesser cared about trivia ...

Probably the only thing I took with me from my short stint in Midland. My
internship supervisor was "old school" having worked his way up through the
ranks as a "one man band" street reporter shooting stories on 16mm film and
was sure I'd never amount to much.

20 years (11 at the network level), 7 Emmy Awards (self
agrandizement...sorry), and my PP-ASEL later ... well it just goes to show
you never know... LOL!

;O)

Jay B

"Jay Beckman" > wrote

> If it weren't for brine, there'd be no Dow and if there were no Dow
there'd
> probably be no Midland.

Harumph. I had no idea that there was brine in Michigan, and that started
Dow. Learn something new every day. Some days. I wouldn't want to be
"too" smart. <g>
--
Jim in NC

"Skywise" > wrote

> I live in an LA suburb and I've always had trouble finding a
> place to dispose of my used oil. Places either charge, or you
> have to use a special certified container to bring it in.

You kalifornians need to get real with all of your green laws that are
counter productive.

Here, you can bring oil in to about any auto parts store, in anything you
want to bring it in. How can that be bad?
--
Jim in NC

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 23:11:33 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> Leak?
>>
>> I was raised in rural Michigan. In the 40's and 50's they used to
>> *spray* the gravel roads with brine and/or oil. In many places they
>> even used what was affectionately known as "drip". Ever hear a car
>> run on that stuff? <:-)) When changing the oil in cars and tractors
>> people were encouraged to spread it on the gravel roads to keep the
>> dust down. The brine truck used to make at least two trips a summer
>> down our road.
>>
>> Most of the foundation for older roads around here has two or three
>> heavy coats of brine.
>>
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Roger
>
>If it weren't for brine, there'd be no Dow and if there were no Dow there'd
>probably be no Midland.
>
>http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/dow.html
>
>I can still hear my boss's voice on the Corporate History piece we did:
>
>"It was in 1897 that Herbert Dow discovered Brine buried in pockets deep
>beneath the Earth..."

Deep? The stuff is so close to the surface around here probably 10 to
20% of the home water wells are brine producers. Anything over 150
feet is quite likely to hit brine instead of clean water. Dow used
the brine to produce Bromine. The original well has been rebuilt and
stands between main street and the river about a mile to the NW of the
business district and next to the corner of North wood University.

BTW, the original oil fields in this area were only 500 to 1500 feet
deep. There is also a very large coal deposit that under lays most of
the Saginaw valley. The vein is at its thickest and deepest in this
area at roughly 400 feet plus change.It's very close to the surface of
the shale and there is almost 400 feet of sand, gravel, and clay (full
of water) on top of that. Of course the coal, like the oil has very
high sulfur content and the coal vein is only about 3' thick at the
thickest. It's also very soft coal. OTOH there are many hundreds of
square miles of the stuff. It comes to the surface at the north side
of the valley and can be seen in rock outcroppings where it's only a
few inches thick.

When I say valley, don't think in terms of Colorado or Kentucky. At
its widest the valley must be close to 100 miles across and is only a
couple hundred feet deep. Unless you are watching you can drive out
of it and never be aware you left. I used to live 65 miles from work.
The last 5 miles on the way home were where US-10 climbed out of the
valley just west of Farwell MI.

We lived just about 300 to 400 yards west of the top of Michigan's
"continental divide". There was a 200' plus radio tower on the top of
the hill and I climbed that thing many a time. One day I was up there
and heard a jet coming. I kept looking, but no jet. Then I looked to
the west and down. He was less than a mile west and about 100 feet
below me and really hauling. There is an MOA there, but the base is
7000 feet.

One night I woke around midnight to the sound of a very loud prop
plane. I rolled over and looked out the bedroom window which faced
east and the tower just in time to see what appeared to be a Beech 18
headed south just above the tops of the trees between us and the
tower. He had to have been with in 100 feet of the guy lines. He was
close enough I could see the sparks and fire coming out of the exhaust
stacks.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Jay Beckman
>PP-ASEL
>Chandler, AZ
>(Production Intern - Dow Chemical Co. PR Dept. Midland, MI - '84/'85)
>

On Fri, 9 Dec 2005 01:07:38 -0500, "Morgans" >
wrote:

>
>"Roger" wrote
>
>> I was raided in rural Michigan.
>
>I hope that being "raided" didn't set your development back too far! <BFG>

That happens at 4:00 AM.

>
>> In the 40's and 50's they used to
>> *spray* the gravel roads with brine and/or oil.
>
>I too remember the oil spraying.
>
>> In many places they
>> even used what was affectionately known as "drip". Ever hear a car
>> run on that stuff? <:-))
>
>Now, I'm clueless when you speak of "drip." What is it?

The "low boilers" driectly off the oil wells. Lots of Naptha and
other good *stuff*. Spark knock like crazy, foul the plugs, backfie
through the carb and bark out the exhaust. When times were tough
people used to slip up to the tanks and drain off a bit. You could
tell by the noise (and smell) who was burning the stuff.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>> When changing the oil in cars and tractors people were encouraged to
>spread it on
>> the gravel roads to keep the dust down. The brine truck used to make at
>least two
>> trips a summer down our road.
>
>Brine? As in sal****er, or something else?
>
>> Most of the foundation for older roads around here has two or three
>> heavy coats of brine.
>
>That sounds like the tar oil type of stuff, like they still use between
>coats of bitumenous (sp?) concrete. (asphalt)
>
>I'm surprised you know about all of this road stuff. Did they really have
>cars, back when you grew up? <g,dr>
>--
>Jim in NC

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 23:11:33 -0700, "Jay Beckman" >
wrote:

>"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>> Leak?
>>
>> I was raised in rural Michigan. In the 40's and 50's they used to
>> *spray* the gravel roads with brine and/or oil. In many places they
>> even used what was affectionately known as "drip". Ever hear a car
>> run on that stuff? <:-)) When changing the oil in cars and tractors
>> people were encouraged to spread it on the gravel roads to keep the
>> dust down. The brine truck used to make at least two trips a summer
>> down our road.
>>
>> Most of the foundation for older roads around here has two or three
>> heavy coats of brine.
>>
>> Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
>> (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
>> www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Roger
>
>If it weren't for brine, there'd be no Dow and if there were no Dow there'd
>probably be no Midland.
>

If you've been back recently you would see Dow is only a shadow of
it's former self. Back in the 50's and 60's they had an hourly work
force of over 7,000. I think it was 75090 or 7600. I'd guess that
all of the current Midland work force including supervision is less
than a quarter of that.

People complain about the traffic on M-20 now, but they should have
see it in the mornings and afternoons around shift change time. It's
a 5 lane high way now. Back then it was only two lanes and no stop
lights.

>http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/dow.html
>
>I can still hear my boss's voice on the Corporate History piece we did:
>
>"It was in 1897 that Herbert Dow discovered Brine buried in pockets deep
>beneath the Earth..."
>
>Jay Beckman
>PP-ASEL
>Chandler, AZ
>(Production Intern - Dow Chemical Co. PR Dept. Midland, MI - '84/'85)

84 - 85 I was an Instrument man out at Hemi-Semi. Quit and went back
to college full time in 87. They are now the world's largest producer
of poly crystalline Silicon and they just announced an expansion that
will double the size of the plant. I'm not sure of the output any
more, but it's in the thousands of metric tons per year. That is a
*lot* of transistors.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


>

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 02:43:07 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>>> Worst case: Aviation gets another black
>>> eye, and the FAA ends up being liable for "contamination" at every
>>> airport
>>> in America.
>>
>> I wouldn't think that a likely scenario since the FAA doesn't
>> run/operate/own
>> any airports.
>
>I hope you're right, but.... The FAA is the over-arching, controlling
>agency here.
>
>EPA doesn't own any old, abandoned gas stations (with leaky underground
>tanks), but they're responsible for cleaning them up, right?

EPA is responsible for finding "someone" to blame, fine, and force to
do the clean up, or pay for it on top of the fine. In the case of a
city owned airport it's going to be the city and that means the tax
payers.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 03:06:14 GMT, George Patterson
> wrote:

wrote:
>
>> But those airports don't sit in the water supply for 7 million people.
>
>Chicago used to pull its water from the river and dump its sewage in the lake.
>This has changed?

I think they changed the order.
In from the lake and out into the river?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>
>George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
> your slightly older self.

>Storm water overflow does not cause beaches to be closed. Raw sewage does.
>You don't need to see solid matter for the sewage to be present.
>
Awh, what's a little e-coli between friends?

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

> Here, you can bring oil in to about any auto parts store, in anything you
> want to bring it in. How can that be bad?

Heck, my A&P mechanic has a big barrel that he collects everyone's used oil
in. It's handy, and easy.

And someone *buys* it from him.

IMO, THAT is true "ecology" -- not the government-mandated nonsense that
only encourages everyone to dump their used oil in the storm sewer.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

>>by Skywise > Dec 8, 2005 at 10:17 PM


"Skylune" > wrote in
lkaboutaviation.com:

>>>by Rachel <fakename@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 6, 2005 at 07:30 PM
>
> .
> <yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.<<
>
> I find it amazing that people spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly
> small planes in circles, or in search of hamburgers, for the thrill of
it.
>
>
> To each her own, I guess, until they intrude on my rights.

By that logic, you are intruding on my right to enjoy this news
group without snivelling little brats bitching about every thing
GA. Should I sue you?<<

That would be up to you. It would be interesting to hear what legal
statute you think I am violating.

People in this country have a right to express opinions and disagree.
(Not sure if this is well understood in Kah-lee-fornya, though.) People
even have a right to create weird web sites that ramble on about esoteric
stuff like lasers. Sue if you'd like.

>>by Rachel > Dec 8, 2005 at 04:50 PM


Skylune wrote:
>>>by Rachel <fakename@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 6, 2005 at 07:30 PM
>
>
> .
> <yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.<<
>
> I find it amazing that people spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly
> small planes in circles, or in search of hamburgers, for the thrill of
it.
>
>
> To each her own, I guess, until they intrude on my rights.

Who is flying tens of thousands of dollars to fly small planes in search
of hamburgers? Maybe you shouldn't make assumptions about my piloting
experience.

By the way, stop driving your car. The emmissions are bad for me.<<

Ralph from the Honeymooners: "Rachel, you've come back!"

Listen, I have nothing against GA per se. I just think regs concerning
noise abatement need to be established. If I drive a 1000 feet from your
residence and I make a racket, your state or locality probably has local
noise statutues that would cause me to be ticketed. Doesn't matter if I'm
in a Fed Ex truck delivering supplies or a motorcycle or a car.
Ambulances, police cars and the like are generally exempted, for obvious
reasons.

GA planes are completely exempted from any noise restrictions. Some
people think that state or local noise statutes should not have an
exclusive exemption for GA.

And in this case the AOPA hides behind FAA "protections," while the FAA
itself is not really interested in noise abatement from GA. After trying
to negotiate a solution with some of the flight schools and pleasure
craft, and getting nothing but push back and FAR mumbo jumbo, some people
have become fed up.

I bet you wouldn't like it if I could legally ride a Harley with straight
pipes 1000' from your residence at any hour of the day or night. It's as
simple as that.

Like you intrude on everyone else's rights, you whack-job?

1) Your jet-ski outside my boathouse day in and out?
2) Your snow mobile racing through the forest day in and out?
3) Your leaf blower every Sunday morning at 7:30?
4) Your dirt bike racing thoughout the neighborhood day in and out?

Your **** bothers us, SkyDip****, and so we get to bother you with our
flying about in circles.

Jesus, you are a horses ass.


On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 11:20:55 -0500, "Skylune"
> wrote:

>>>by Rachel <fakename@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 6, 2005 at 07:30 PM
>
> .
><yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.<<
>
>I find it amazing that people spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly
>small planes in circles, or in search of hamburgers, for the thrill of it.
>
>
>To each her own, I guess, until they intrude on my rights.
>
>
>

>>by Terry > Dec 9, 2005 at 12:42 PM


Like you intrude on everyone else's rights, you whack-job?

1) Your jet-ski outside my boathouse day in and out?
2) Your snow mobile racing through the forest day in and out?
3) Your leaf blower every Sunday morning at 7:30?
4) Your dirt bike racing thoughout the neighborhood day in and out?

Your **** bothers us, SkyDip****, and so we get to bother you with our
flying about in circles.

Jesus, you are a horses ass.<<

I try!

1. I don't own a jet ski, but these are heavily regulated in terms of
noise. Many ponds/lakes prohibit them.

2. I don't own a snowmobile, but these are heavily regulated, and are
subject to community noise ordinances.

3. My leaf blower is never on at 7:30, because (a) it would annoy people
and (b) community noise ordinances prohibit it.

4. I don't own a dirt bike, but if I did it would be subject to community
noise ordinances, and if it were not street legal, would be seized by the
police if the rider were riding on public roads.

What are the legal penalties for making noise at 7:30 am (or earlier) with
a small plane? (Oh, none.)

You attack the messenger with the best of them. Of course you are
completely clueless, and can only call me names.

Perhaps the new AOPA guide on how to talk to the media will provide you
with better information to rebut my argument. But I doubt it.

Skylune wrote:
>>>by Rachel > Dec 8, 2005 at 04:50 PM
>
<snip>

> GA planes are completely exempted from any noise restrictions. Some
> people think that state or local noise statutes should not have an
> exclusive exemption for GA.

Really. We are? I checked the ordinances for the cities that I fly out
of and they do not exempt aircraft of any type. Again, check your facts.

> I bet you wouldn't like it if I could legally ride a Harley with straight
> pipes 1000' from your residence at any hour of the day or night. It's as
> simple as that.

You're right, it is very simple. I'd call the cops, same as I do on my
neighbor with the stereo. Why can't you do the same? No matter what
you claim, aircraft are not exempt from noise restrictions. If your
city claims they can't do anything about aircraft noise, that's a
problem to take up with them.

Oh, well, no use arguing with a troll. It's really too bad my filters
aren't working.

"Skylune" > wrote in
lkaboutaviation.com:

>>>by Skywise > Dec 8, 2005 at 10:17 PM
>
>
> "Skylune" > wrote in
> lkaboutaviation.com:
>
>>>>by Rachel <fakename@[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dec 6, 2005 at 07:30 PM
>>
>> .
>> <yawn> I can't believe some people find GA-bashing to be exciting.<<
>>
>> I find it amazing that people spend tens of thousands of dollars to fly
>> small planes in circles, or in search of hamburgers, for the thrill of
> it.
>>
>>
>> To each her own, I guess, until they intrude on my rights.
>
> By that logic, you are intruding on my right to enjoy this news
> group without snivelling little brats bitching about every thing
> GA. Should I sue you?<<
>
> That would be up to you. It would be interesting to hear what legal
> statute you think I am violating.
>
> People in this country have a right to express opinions and disagree.
> (Not sure if this is well understood in Kah-lee-fornya, though.) People
> even have a right to create weird web sites that ramble on about esoteric
> stuff like lasers. Sue if you'd like.

You are a loon.... You've just contradicted yourself.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Like censorship and not getting support help? Switch to Supernews!
They won't even answer questions through your ISP!

"Morgans" > wrote in :

>
> "Skywise" > wrote
>
>> I live in an LA suburb and I've always had trouble finding a
>> place to dispose of my used oil. Places either charge, or you
>> have to use a special certified container to bring it in.
>
> You kalifornians need to get real with all of your green laws that are
> counter productive.
>
> Here, you can bring oil in to about any auto parts store, in anything you
> want to bring it in. How can that be bad?

Admitedly it's been a few years since I've tried bringing my
oil into the autoparts store in my old quart bottles. Things
may have changed since.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
Like censorship and not getting support help? Switch to Supernews!
They won't even answer questions through your ISP!

"Rachel" > wrote in message
...
> Skylune wrote:
> >>>by Rachel > Dec 8, 2005 at 04:50 PM
> >
> <snip>
>
> > GA planes are completely exempted from any noise restrictions. Some
> > people think that state or local noise statutes should not have an
> > exclusive exemption for GA.
>
> Really. We are? I checked the ordinances for the cities that I fly out
> of and they do not exempt aircraft of any type. Again, check your facts.
>
> > I bet you wouldn't like it if I could legally ride a Harley with
straight
> > pipes 1000' from your residence at any hour of the day or night. It's
as
> > simple as that.
>
> You're right, it is very simple. I'd call the cops, same as I do on my
> neighbor with the stereo. Why can't you do the same? No matter what
> you claim, aircraft are not exempt from noise restrictions. If your
> city claims they can't do anything about aircraft noise, that's a
> problem to take up with them.
>
> Oh, well, no use arguing with a troll. It's really too bad my filters
> aren't working.

Apparently, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
The FAA has sole jurisdiction over any and all aircraft operation. Cities
can pass all the aircraft noise ordinances they want but their enforcement
ability is zero.

Tom Conner wrote:
> "Rachel" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Skylune wrote:
>>
>>>>>by Rachel > Dec 8, 2005 at 04:50 PM
>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>GA planes are completely exempted from any noise restrictions. Some
>>>people think that state or local noise statutes should not have an
>>>exclusive exemption for GA.
>>
>>Really. We are? I checked the ordinances for the cities that I fly out
>>of and they do not exempt aircraft of any type. Again, check your facts.
>>
>>
>>>I bet you wouldn't like it if I could legally ride a Harley with
>
> straight
>
>>>pipes 1000' from your residence at any hour of the day or night. It's
>
> as
>
>>>simple as that.
>>
>>You're right, it is very simple. I'd call the cops, same as I do on my
>>neighbor with the stereo. Why can't you do the same? No matter what
>>you claim, aircraft are not exempt from noise restrictions. If your
>>city claims they can't do anything about aircraft noise, that's a
>>problem to take up with them.
>>
>>Oh, well, no use arguing with a troll. It's really too bad my filters
>>aren't working.
>
>
> Apparently, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> The FAA has sole jurisdiction over any and all aircraft operation. Cities
> can pass all the aircraft noise ordinances they want but their enforcement
> ability is zero.

Apparently, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking
about. I've seen tickets given. Maybe the city didn't have the
authority to do it, but they do. End of story.

Tom Conner wrote:


>
>
> Apparently, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> The FAA has sole jurisdiction over any and all aircraft operation. Cities
> can pass all the aircraft noise ordinances they want but their enforcement
> ability is zero.

Pull your head out of your ass. The owner of the airport can do pretty
much anything they want. Look at John Wayne in the LA area for a prime
example.

"Newps" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Tom Conner wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Apparently, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking
> > about. The FAA has sole jurisdiction over any and all aircraft
operation.
> > Cities can pass all the aircraft noise ordinances they want but their
> > enforcement ability is zero.
>
> Pull your head out of your ass. The owner of the airport can do pretty
> much anything they want. Look at John Wayne in the LA area for a prime
> example.

A private airport can do pretty much what it wants. Any airport that has
accepted FAA AIP grants has to do what the FAA says, and the FAA says no
noise regulations. Again, Newps demonstrates he is the one with his head up
his ass.

Tom Conner wrote:

> operation.
>
>>>Cities can pass all the aircraft noise ordinances they want but their
>>>enforcement ability is zero.
>>
>>Pull your head out of your ass. The owner of the airport can do pretty
>>much anything they want. Look at John Wayne in the LA area for a prime
>>example.
>
>
> A private airport can do pretty much what it wants. Any airport that has
> accepted FAA AIP grants has to do what the FAA says,

No wrong. Noise policies are always at the discretion of the owner of
the airport. The FAA has no jurisdiction over noise policies and never
gives money and then says..."Well you can have this grant, but only if
you don't have any noise abatement procedures."


and the FAA says no
> noise regulations.

The FAA has never said any such thing. If they did we wouldn't have
some of the goofed up rules we do. Are you saying John Wayne doesn't
take AIP money?

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:14:47 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> Here, you can bring oil in to about any auto parts store, in anything you
>> want to bring it in. How can that be bad?
>
>Heck, my A&P mechanic has a big barrel that he collects everyone's used oil
>in. It's handy, and easy.

Ours has one of those as well
>
>And someone *buys* it from him.
>

Sell it? He mixes it with fuel oil and it goes into his furnace.
There's a lot of BTUs in that oil!

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>IMO, THAT is true "ecology" -- not the government-mandated nonsense that
>only encourages everyone to dump their used oil in the storm sewer.

There are also a lot of heavy metals and other nasty stuff
in used engine oil, it isn't good for your home heating or
cooking.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm



"Roger" > wrote in message
...
| On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:14:47 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
| > wrote:
|
| >> Here, you can bring oil in to about any auto parts
store, in anything you
| >> want to bring it in. How can that be bad?
| >
| >Heck, my A&P mechanic has a big barrel that he collects
everyone's used oil
| >in. It's handy, and easy.
|
| Ours has one of those as well
| >
| >And someone *buys* it from him.
| >
|
| Sell it? He mixes it with fuel oil and it goes into his
furnace.
| There's a lot of BTUs in that oil!
|
| Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
| (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
| www.rogerhalstead.com
|
| >IMO, THAT is true "ecology" -- not the
government-mandated nonsense that
| >only encourages everyone to dump their used oil in the
storm sewer.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:42:59 -0600, Rachel > wrote:

>Tom Conner wrote:
>> "Rachel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Skylune wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>by Rachel > Dec 8, 2005 at 04:50 PM
>>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>GA planes are completely exempted from any noise restrictions. Some
>>>>people think that state or local noise statutes should not have an
>>>>exclusive exemption for GA.
>>>
>>>Really. We are? I checked the ordinances for the cities that I fly out
>>>of and they do not exempt aircraft of any type. Again, check your facts.
>>>
>>>
>>>>I bet you wouldn't like it if I could legally ride a Harley with
>>
>> straight
>>
>>>>pipes 1000' from your residence at any hour of the day or night. It's

They can here.

>>
>> as
>>
>>>>simple as that.
>>>
>>>You're right, it is very simple. I'd call the cops, same as I do on my
>>>neighbor with the stereo. Why can't you do the same? No matter what
>>>you claim, aircraft are not exempt from noise restrictions. If your
>>>city claims they can't do anything about aircraft noise, that's a
>>>problem to take up with them.
>>>
>>>Oh, well, no use arguing with a troll. It's really too bad my filters
>>>aren't working.
>>
>>
>> Apparently, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
>> The FAA has sole jurisdiction over any and all aircraft operation. Cities
>> can pass all the aircraft noise ordinances they want but their enforcement
>> ability is zero.
>
>Apparently, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking
>about. I've seen tickets given. Maybe the city didn't have the
>authority to do it, but they do. End of story.

Cities, townships, and counties...even states pass laws and
regulations for which only the feds have the jurisdiction, but they do
it and get away with it until some one knowledgeable and with enough
money to be able to afford to take them to court and win comes along.

So they pass the laws and enforce them by default until some one slaps
their hands and gets in their pocketbooks. Then another city down the
road turns around and passes a carbon copy and it starts all over
again.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Jim Macklin wrote:
> There are also a lot of heavy metals and other nasty stuff
> in used engine oil, it isn't good for your home heating or
> cooking.
>
>
Most specifically for aircraft engines, the stuff is full of
lead. Most of the oil recyclers hear won't touch used oil
that comes from people burning leaded fuels.

Roger wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 18:42:59 -0600, Rachel > wrote:
<snip>
>
> Cities, townships, and counties...even states pass laws and
> regulations for which only the feds have the jurisdiction, but they do
> it and get away with it until some one knowledgeable and with enough
> money to be able to afford to take them to court and win comes along.
>
> So they pass the laws and enforce them by default until some one slaps
> their hands and gets in their pocketbooks. Then another city down the
> road turns around and passes a carbon copy and it starts all over
> again.

I think that was kind of my point. Sure, the FAA has jurisdiction over
air commerce, but that hasn't prevented states and cities from
regulating it. Illinois has (had?) a couple of rules on the books that
were directly out of the FARS...minimum safe altitudes is the one I can
think of specifically right now.

Regardless, I've seen a city bust a pilot on a noise ordinance
violation. I'm assuming he paid the fine and didn't care that they
didn't have the legal authority to do it. Anyone who says no one
control GA noise is just wrong.

Newps wrote:
> Tom Conner wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> > Apparently, you do not have the slightest idea what you are talking about.
> > The FAA has sole jurisdiction over any and all aircraft operation. Cities
> > can pass all the aircraft noise ordinances they want but their enforcement
> > ability is zero.
>
> Pull your head out of your ass. The owner of the airport can do pretty
> much anything they want. Look at John Wayne in the LA area for a prime
> example.

Shouldn't SNA be "Marion Morrison AP", John Wayne was a stage name :)

JG

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> In article . com>,
> wrote:
>
> > Rachel wrote:
> > > wrote:
>
> Do you have to repeat yourself? repeat yourself? repeat yourself? repeat
> yourself? repeat yourself? repeat yourself? repeat yourself?

Thank the Google Billionaires for that :)

>
> --
> Remve "_" from email to reply to me personally.

Dave Stadt wrote:

> belong
> > > to
> > > > your slightly older self.
> > >
> > > Chicago gets its water from cribs a couple of miles out in the lake.
> During
> > > heavy rain they dump raw sewage into the river and open the locks to let
> it
> > > run into the lake.
> >
> > The last opening was 3 years ago. The deep tunnel and reservoir project
> > was built
> > to halt this.
>
> Not much rain the last three years. The deep tunnel has reached saturation
> a time or two which resulted in raw sewage going into the lake.

The "reservoir" part of TARP is still under construction, old gravel
quarries converted
to holding ponds. Milwaukee and Indiana discharges will still be an
issue.

JG

Jim Macklin wrote:

> There are also a lot of heavy metals and other nasty stuff
> in used engine oil, it isn't good for your home heating or
> cooking.

Used oil works great to heat your garage or workshop. If your heater is
properly maintained there's no smoke or residue.

Rachel wrote:

Illinois has (had?) a couple of rules on the books that
> were directly out of the FARS...minimum safe altitudes is the one I can
> think of specifically right now.

So Illionois wants you to follow the FAR's? What's the problem?


>
> Regardless, I've seen a city bust a pilot on a noise ordinance
> violation. I'm assuming he paid the fine and didn't care that they
> didn't have the legal authority to do it.

They most certainly do have the authority and it is done regularly all
over the country.

> So Illionois wants you to follow the FAR's? What's the problem?

Depends. Did they say "follow the FARs" or did they look up the
(present) regulations and copy them? If the latter, when the feds
change the rules, the state (by default) would not.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Newps wrote:
>
>
> Rachel wrote:
>
> Illinois has (had?) a couple of rules on the books that
>
>> were directly out of the FARS...minimum safe altitudes is the one I
>> can think of specifically right now.
>
>
> So Illionois wants you to follow the FAR's? What's the problem?

There is a name for what it's called when a state or local lawmaking
agency makes the exact same law as the federal government. Sorry, my
aviation law class was way too long ago to remember what it is.

My personal problem is that I'm against needless regulation.

But the real reason I pointed this out here was to let someone know that
someone is, in fact, regulating aircraft noise. He said that no one can
regulate GA noise, I was pointing out that he was wrong.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 03:49:35 -0600, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>There are also a lot of heavy metals and other nasty stuff
>in used engine oil, it isn't good for your home heating or
>cooking.

He heats the big hangar and blows the fumes outside.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>--
>James H. Macklin
>ATP,CFI,A&P