I have a VFR only 172 and I am considering IFR training.

I am looking for the most practical way to make my plane IFR certified
and useful.

At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
useful information for relatively not much money.

I have 2 questions though....

to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
information displayed on hte 430 unit?

Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
certified?

I realize that I will be needing backup instruments to reliably fly in
IMC, that will come with time...what I need now is training and learned
proficiency.

Thanks,

Jamie A. Landers
PP-ASEL

Check these threads

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.ifr/msg/c83946c98e4a4967?dmode=source

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.ifr/msg/e6d4510a019f439b?dmode=source

On 12/6/2005 15:25, wrote:

> I have a VFR only 172 and I am considering IFR training.
>
> I am looking for the most practical way to make my plane IFR certified
> and useful.
>
> At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
> useful information for relatively not much money.
>
> I have 2 questions though....
>
> to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
> have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
> information displayed on hte 430 unit?
>

The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.

> Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
> certified?

Well, here you have to be careful. There are some who will argue that
you can legally fly IFR with nothing more than a hand-held GPS unit.

You can review FAR 91.205 for required equipment and instruments, and
specifically sub-section (d), which covers IFR.

The Garmin GNS 430 is a TSO C-129 certified unit, so although it can
be used as the sole means of IFR navigation, you must have an alternate
means of navigation on board and functional (there's a lot more to this,
but this is the jist of it).

There is a section in the AIM that talks about the use of a GPS system
in lieu of other navigation equipment, and when it is allowed. You should
check that out as well.

Basically, if you don't have a glide slope receiver, you won't be able
to fly any precision approaches. If you don't have an ADF, you won't
be able to fly any NDB approaches (not that there are that many left).

Let me know if you have any more questions, and watch out: there are
going to be a lot of opinions on this one (just look at the other
GPS threads over the last couple of months or so...).


>
> I realize that I will be needing backup instruments to reliably fly in
> IMC, that will come with time...what I need now is training and learned
> proficiency.

Simulators can help with some types of proficiency. Let me know if you
want to talk about that.

>
> Thanks,
>
> Jamie A. Landers
> PP-ASEL
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message ...
>
> The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
> precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
> for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.
> --
> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
>

Garmin says the GNS 430 has a glide slope.
See the second sentence of the first paragraph at:
http://www.garmin.com/products/gns430/

>The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
>precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
>for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.
>
It has full ILS capability once you provide the CDI unit. I have done
my instrument training with that one unit only.

Ron Lee

On 12/6/2005 5:25 PM, wrote the
following:
>
> At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
> useful information for relatively not much money.
>

It's a great box. IMHO, anyway. I don't care so much for
the SL30 nav/com but the 430 is very well thought out.

> I have 2 questions though....
>
> to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
> have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
> information displayed on hte 430 unit?
>

Contrary to a previous response, the G430 does have a glide
slope function as part of the VLOC function. At least the
one that I fly with does. The 430 does not indicate either
the localizer or the glide slope on its screen however. You
need to buy the separate indicator (CDI).

Garmin has a free simulator and free downloads of the
manuals from their web site. Get the sim and the manuals
and you can learn the box in maybe 5 hours. Enough to get
started flying with it and certainly enough to evaluate it
thoroughly. You should have someone who knows the 430 in
the right seat for the first few flights IMHO.

> Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
> certified?
>

No. Required flight instruments are specified in Part 91.

Mitty wrote:
> Garmin has a free simulator and free downloads of the
> manuals from their web site. Get the sim and the manuals
> and you can learn the box in maybe 5 hours. Enough to get
> started flying with it and certainly enough to evaluate it
> thoroughly. You should have someone who knows the 430 in
> the right seat for the first few flights IMHO.


I cannot emphasize enough how much their simulator helped me get comfortable
with the 430. Not only can you set it up to initialize from your home airport,
you can goose the throttle all the way up to 600 knots so the enroute portion of
your practice flights can be accelerated.

Since I only fly rental aircraft these days, the radios seem to vary widely in
each one available to me. One thing that has become almost universal among the
rental fleet where I live is the Garmin 430. I had been out of flying for
almost 15 years and learned on steam gauges. The Garmin was very intimidating
initially... but the simulator fixed that. And it's free!

http://www.garmin.com/software/simulators/TRAIN430.EXE




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Mark Hansen wrote:

> Basically, if you don't have a glide slope receiver, you won't be able
> to fly any precision approaches. If you don't have an ADF, you won't
> be able to fly any NDB approaches (not that there are that many left).

They're disappearing, but they're not quite dead yet. I count 29 in
New York and New Jersey alone -- I don't know how often they're
actually used, but at least they're still publishing the plates in the
current cycle:

- KBGM NDB 34
- KBUF NDB 5
- KBUF NDB 23
- KCDW NDB or GPS 22
- KCDW NDB or GPS-A
- KFRG NDB 1
- 1B1 NDB-A
- KISP NDB or GPS 6
- NY0 NDB 10
- NY0 NDB 28
- KNEL NDB 24
- N07 NDB or GPS 1
- 06N NDB 26
- KMIV NDB or GPS 14
- KMGJ NDB 3
- KMSV NDB or GPS 15
- KMMU NDB or GPS 5
- KMMU NDB or GPS 23
- KIAG NDB 28R
- KPEO NDB 28
- KPTD NDB 24
- KSCH NDB 22
- KSCH NDB 28
- KTTN NDB or GPS 6
- KUCA NDB or GPS 15
- KELZ NDB 28
- KGTB NDB or GPS 15 (military)
- KGTB NDB or GPS 33 (military)
- KHPN NDB 16


All the best,


David

Forget the 430, get a 480.
The 480 is WAAS certified out of the box.
Garmin has been promising WAAS for the 430 since they started selling
them.

The 430 does indeed have a glideslope receiver. You will have to use a
Garmin indicator to make it work. It is a great box, and second only to the
530 in functionality. I have one of each in two different planes.

Mark,

> The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
> precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
> for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.

Are you kidding? Of course the 430 has a glideslope receiver. It doesn't
have an INDICATOR, but that's a different thing. You need a separate CDI
indicator anyway to be certified for IFR approaches - the built-in page
won't do. That CDI/glide slope indicator may contain the required
annunciators, too.
>
> > Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
> > certified?
>
> Well, here you have to be careful. There are some who will argue that
> you can legally fly IFR with nothing more than a hand-held GPS unit.

I don't think so.

>
> You can review FAR 91.205 for required equipment and instruments, and
> specifically sub-section (d), which covers IFR.
>


Yep.
--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

My 430 has glideslope as do all the others I have seen. Where are you
getting the idea that it does not?

Mike
MU-2


"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message
...
> On 12/6/2005 15:25, wrote:
>
>> I have a VFR only 172 and I am considering IFR training.
>>
>> I am looking for the most practical way to make my plane IFR certified
>> and useful.
>>
>> At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
>> useful information for relatively not much money.
>>
>> I have 2 questions though....
>>
>> to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
>> have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
>> information displayed on hte 430 unit?
>>
>
> The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
> precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
> for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.
>
>> Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
>> certified?
>
> Well, here you have to be careful. There are some who will argue that
> you can legally fly IFR with nothing more than a hand-held GPS unit.
>
> You can review FAR 91.205 for required equipment and instruments, and
> specifically sub-section (d), which covers IFR.
>
> The Garmin GNS 430 is a TSO C-129 certified unit, so although it can
> be used as the sole means of IFR navigation, you must have an alternate
> means of navigation on board and functional (there's a lot more to this,
> but this is the jist of it).
>
> There is a section in the AIM that talks about the use of a GPS system
> in lieu of other navigation equipment, and when it is allowed. You should
> check that out as well.
>
> Basically, if you don't have a glide slope receiver, you won't be able
> to fly any precision approaches. If you don't have an ADF, you won't
> be able to fly any NDB approaches (not that there are that many left).
>
> Let me know if you have any more questions, and watch out: there are
> going to be a lot of opinions on this one (just look at the other
> GPS threads over the last couple of months or so...).
>
>
>>
>> I realize that I will be needing backup instruments to reliably fly in
>> IMC, that will come with time...what I need now is training and learned
>> proficiency.
>
> Simulators can help with some types of proficiency. Let me know if you
> want to talk about that.
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jamie A. Landers
>> PP-ASEL
>>
>
>
> --
> Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
> Sacramento, CA

wrote:
> Mark Hansen wrote:
>
>
>>Basically, if you don't have a glide slope receiver, you won't be able
>>to fly any precision approaches. If you don't have an ADF, you won't
>>be able to fly any NDB approaches (not that there are that many left).
>
>
> They're disappearing, but they're not quite dead yet. I count 29 in
> New York and New Jersey alone -- I don't know how often they're
> actually used, but at least they're still publishing the plates in the
> current cycle:

....and there are plenty of airports in Canada where the only approach requires
an ADF, also in the rest of the world outside the US.

On 12/6/2005 16:22, Ron Lee wrote:

>>The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
>>precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
>>for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.
>>
> It has full ILS capability once you provide the CDI unit. I have done
> my instrument training with that one unit only.

I Guess I was thinking of the unit in GPS mode. Yes, you can still tune
in ILS stations and fly ILS approaches with the unit in VLOC mode (assuming
you have the right indicators).

Sorry for the confusion.

>
> Ron Lee


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

On 12/6/2005 15:50, Mark Hansen wrote:

> On 12/6/2005 15:25, wrote:
>
>> I have a VFR only 172 and I am considering IFR training.
>>
>> I am looking for the most practical way to make my plane IFR certified
>> and useful.
>>
>> At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
>> useful information for relatively not much money.
>>
>> I have 2 questions though....
>>
>> to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
>> have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
>> information displayed on hte 430 unit?
>>
>
> The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
> precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
> for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.
>

Oops, I meant the unit in GPS mode. The unit can be placed in VLOC mode
and used with an ILS station, assuming you have the right indicators
(CDI w/glide slope).

I thought the poster was asking about the use of the 430 as a stand-alone
unit with no other instrumentation.

>> Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
>> certified?
>
> Well, here you have to be careful. There are some who will argue that
> you can legally fly IFR with nothing more than a hand-held GPS unit.
>
> You can review FAR 91.205 for required equipment and instruments, and
> specifically sub-section (d), which covers IFR.
>
> The Garmin GNS 430 is a TSO C-129 certified unit, so although it can
> be used as the sole means of IFR navigation, you must have an alternate
> means of navigation on board and functional (there's a lot more to this,
> but this is the jist of it).
>
> There is a section in the AIM that talks about the use of a GPS system
> in lieu of other navigation equipment, and when it is allowed. You should
> check that out as well.
>
> Basically, if you don't have a glide slope receiver, you won't be able
> to fly any precision approaches. If you don't have an ADF, you won't
> be able to fly any NDB approaches (not that there are that many left).
>
> Let me know if you have any more questions, and watch out: there are
> going to be a lot of opinions on this one (just look at the other
> GPS threads over the last couple of months or so...).
>
>
>>
>> I realize that I will be needing backup instruments to reliably fly in
>> IMC, that will come with time...what I need now is training and learned
>> proficiency.
>
> Simulators can help with some types of proficiency. Let me know if you
> want to talk about that.
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jamie A. Landers
>> PP-ASEL
>>
>
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Mark,

> I thought the poster was asking about the use of the 430 as a stand-alone
> unit with no other instrumentation.
>

That would not be an instrument-certified installation.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

John R. Copeland wrote On 12/06/05 16:03,:
> "Mark Hansen" > wrote in message ...
>
>>The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
>>precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
>>for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.
>>--
>>Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
>>
>
>
> Garmin says the GNS 430 has a glide slope.
> See the second sentence of the first paragraph at:
> http://www.garmin.com/products/gns430/
>

I think they are talking about the wire that goes out. There is ZERO
GS indication on the unit itself.

wrote On 12/06/05 15:25,:
> I have a VFR only 172 and I am considering IFR training.
>
> I am looking for the most practical way to make my plane IFR certified
> and useful.
>
> At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
> useful information for relatively not much money.
>
> I have 2 questions though....
>
> to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
> have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
> information displayed on hte 430 unit?
>
> Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
> certified?
>
> I realize that I will be needing backup instruments to reliably fly in
> IMC, that will come with time...what I need now is training and learned
> proficiency.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jamie A. Landers
> PP-ASEL
>

My experience was probally typical. I had the 430 installed in a 172N
which only had the original crappy Cessna equipment, not even a GS
indicator. The 430 replaced one of the Cessna radios, and I decided to
go with an NSD-360 as the primary display for the GS and VOR. The aircraft
was certified for the first time as IFR equipped, which involved several
issues, not just the 430 installation.

The alternative would have been to install an advanced CDI/GS indicator,
either replacing the existing one, or adding to the non-GS unit. I choose
the NSD-360 because it added significantly to the situational awareness
of the aircraft, and I still think so.

Years later, during an electronics upgrade, the shop owner opined that
he didn't think the 430 was a valid installation because it didn't have
a separate "message" indicator (even though the 430 displays that on its
screen). I had him add that, its just a light front and center on the
panel.

Scott Moore wrote:
> John R. Copeland wrote On 12/06/05 16:03,:
>
>>"Mark Hansen" > wrote in message ...
>>
>>
>>>The 430 does not have a glide slope. It is not certified for use in
>>>precision approaches. It does have a page that will show you the CDI
>>>for tracking VOR and Localizers, etc.
>>>--
>>>Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
>>>
>>
>>
>>Garmin says the GNS 430 has a glide slope.
>>See the second sentence of the first paragraph at:
>>http://www.garmin.com/products/gns430/
>>
>
>
> I think they are talking about the wire that goes out. There is ZERO
> GS indication on the unit itself.
>
In order to be approved as an IFR installation the 430 has to drive an
external CDI or HSI where the G/S will be displayed.

Mitty wrote:

>
>
> On 12/6/2005 5:25 PM, wrote the following:
>
>>
>> At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
>> useful information for relatively not much money.
>>
>
> It's a great box. IMHO, anyway. I don't care so much for the SL30
> nav/com but the 430 is very well thought out.
>
>> I have 2 questions though....
>>
>> to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
>> have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
>> information displayed on hte 430 unit?
>>
>
> Contrary to a previous response, the G430 does have a glide slope
> function as part of the VLOC function. At least the one that I fly with
> does. The 430 does not indicate either the localizer or the glide slope
> on its screen however. You need to buy the separate indicator (CDI).
>
> Garmin has a free simulator and free downloads of the manuals from their
> web site. Get the sim and the manuals and you can learn the box in
> maybe 5 hours. Enough to get started flying with it and certainly
> enough to evaluate it thoroughly. You should have someone who knows the
> 430 in the right seat for the first few flights IMHO.
>
>> Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
>> certified?
>>
>
> No. Required flight instruments are specified in Part 91.

In terms of required navigation devices and a reasonable platform for
instrument training the 430 would be sufficient along with a
transponder. Hmmm, maybe a marker beacon receiver, too, to placate a
picky examiner?

john smith wrote:

> Forget the 430, get a 480.
> The 480 is WAAS certified out of the box.
> Garmin has been promising WAAS for the 430 since they started selling
> them.

Garmin will, in time, provide the WAAS upgrade for the 400/500 series.
The upgrade will also provide additional computational horsepower for
stuff like radius-to-fix (RF) legs.

> In order to be approved as an IFR installation the 430 has to drive an external CDI or HSI where the G/S will be displayed.

What is the reasoning behind this requirement? (especially in light of
glass panels cockpits)

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On 12/7/2005 13:36, wrote:

> Mitty wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 12/6/2005 5:25 PM, wrote the following:
>>
>>>
>>> At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
>>> useful information for relatively not much money.
>>>
>>
>> It's a great box. IMHO, anyway. I don't care so much for the SL30
>> nav/com but the 430 is very well thought out.
>>
>>> I have 2 questions though....
>>>
>>> to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
>>> have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
>>> information displayed on hte 430 unit?
>>>
>>
>> Contrary to a previous response, the G430 does have a glide slope
>> function as part of the VLOC function. At least the one that I fly with
>> does. The 430 does not indicate either the localizer or the glide slope
>> on its screen however. You need to buy the separate indicator (CDI).
>>
>> Garmin has a free simulator and free downloads of the manuals from their
>> web site. Get the sim and the manuals and you can learn the box in
>> maybe 5 hours. Enough to get started flying with it and certainly
>> enough to evaluate it thoroughly. You should have someone who knows the
>> 430 in the right seat for the first few flights IMHO.
>>
>>> Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
>>> certified?
>>>
>>
>> No. Required flight instruments are specified in Part 91.
>
> In terms of required navigation devices and a reasonable platform for
> instrument training the 430 would be sufficient along with a
> transponder. Hmmm, maybe a marker beacon receiver, too, to placate a
> picky examiner?

Yes, but the OP asked about required equipment in general. The 430
certainly does not cover it all. You still need a Generator/alternator,
sensitive altimeter, inclinometer, etc. ... from 91.205

It is possible his VFR-certified airplane has all these things
already, but he didn't say that it did.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Jose,

> What is the reasoning behind this requirement? (especially in light of
> glass panels cockpits)
>

Well, PFDs have that indication. I guess the primary reason is a
requirement to have the indication in the direct field of view of the
pilot.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jose wrote:
>> In order to be approved as an IFR installation the 430 has to drive an
>> external CDI or HSI where the G/S will be displayed.
>
>
> What is the reasoning behind this requirement? (especially in light of
> glass panels cockpits)
>
> Jose

A glass panel cockpit is different than a non-glass cockpit with a GPS
box that is typically mounted off to the side. The external CDI or HSI
is in the pilots primary field of view. Plus, some approved GPS devices
have marginal displays at best. The Garmin 500/530 has a very good
display but there is no requiement that you select that map page. Also,
if that map page became your primary display you would then be unable to
select a different page during the approach, such as the flight plan page.

A full-press glass cockpit, however, separates functions where
appropriate and integrates them when appropriate. Thus, the primary GPS
box in this case is like an FMS screen in a transport aircraft and the
display array in front of the pilot is the "super HSI, moving map, ADI"
that more than satisfies the separation requirement from the primary
database box and the tactical display.

Mark Hansen wrote:

> On 12/7/2005 13:36, wrote:
>
>> Mitty wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/6/2005 5:25 PM, wrote the following:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> At first glance, it appears to me that the Garmin 430 provides a LOT of
>>>> useful information for relatively not much money.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's a great box. IMHO, anyway. I don't care so much for the SL30
>>> nav/com but the 430 is very well thought out.
>>>
>>>> I have 2 questions though....
>>>>
>>>> to use the glideslope / VOR / LOC functions of the 430, do I have to
>>>> have a glide slope indicator and VOR indicator or are these bits of
>>>> information displayed on hte 430 unit?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Contrary to a previous response, the G430 does have a glide slope
>>> function as part of the VLOC function. At least the one that I fly
>>> with does. The 430 does not indicate either the localizer or the
>>> glide slope on its screen however. You need to buy the separate
>>> indicator (CDI).
>>>
>>> Garmin has a free simulator and free downloads of the manuals from
>>> their web site. Get the sim and the manuals and you can learn the
>>> box in maybe 5 hours. Enough to get started flying with it and
>>> certainly enough to evaluate it thoroughly. You should have someone
>>> who knows the 430 in the right seat for the first few flights IMHO.
>>>
>>>> Is this one piece of equipment enough to enable my 172 to be instrument
>>>> certified?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No. Required flight instruments are specified in Part 91.
>>
>>
>> In terms of required navigation devices and a reasonable platform for
>> instrument training the 430 would be sufficient along with a
>> transponder. Hmmm, maybe a marker beacon receiver, too, to placate a
>> picky examiner?
>
>
> Yes, but the OP asked about required equipment in general. The 430
> certainly does not cover it all. You still need a Generator/alternator,
> sensitive altimeter, inclinometer, etc. ... from 91.205
>
> It is possible his VFR-certified airplane has all these things
> already, but he didn't say that it did.
>
>
>
I presumed that he was speaking only in terms of avionics. No doubt he
has to have a sensitive altimeter, attitude indicator, DG (or better)
and so forth. He heeds wings and a engine, too. ;-)