As we were preparing to depart the Quad Cities Air Show yesterday (an
outstanding show, BTW, with the Blue Angels and perfect spring weather), I
became aware of a Piper Warrior having difficulty a few aircraft down from
us.

All transient aircraft had been parked in the grass off the parallel taxiway
for Rwy 15/33, and it seemed that this fellow was having trouble taxiing
back up onto the hard surface. His nosewheel was tight up against the
concrete lip, and he wasn't going anywhere now that he had lost his "running
start" at the step. I recognized the Warrior's tail number as being a
well-used rental bird from a nearby airport...

Just as we started walking toward him to lend a hand, he shut the engine
down, and the door popped open. I figured he'd push the plane back for
another try at it, or perhaps try pulling the plane up onto the hard surface
with a tow bar.

Instead, out popped this guy's girl friend, who proceeded to walk back to
the stabilator, hunch down, put her shoulder into it, and started to PUSH
THE PLANE BACK ON THE GRASS, straining as hard as she could!

Appalled, I started to shout something, but I was too far away to be heard.
In horror I watched as she pushed the plane backwards through the grass
about ten feet, not by pushing on anything sturdy, but by really leaning
into the thin aluminum, whilst her boyfriend sat all the while quite
comfortably strapped into his seat.

Worse, she wasn't pushing down near the fuselage, where it might take the
load, but was rather giving her all way out at the end, by the fiberglass
tip, obviously unaware of the tremendous twisting force she was exerting on
the Piper's relatively delicate empennage.

Before I could move further, she stood up, wiped her hands on her shorts,
and hopped back in the plane. This time he really gunned the engine and
popped right up onto the hard surface, and taxied merrily away -- completely
oblivious to the hidden damage his girlfriend may have just wrought on that
Warrior.

If there was ever any doubt as to why we were so happy to get out of the
aircraft rental market, this was it. Anyone who has ever seen the
sturdy-yet delicate structure of the Cherokee's stabilator knows that it was
never designed for asymmetric twisting forces like that girl imposed, and
God only knows what hidden damage may have been wrought in those few seconds
of awesome stupidity.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

--
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:
> If there was ever any doubt as to why we were so happy to get out of the
> aircraft rental market, this was it. Anyone who has ever seen the
> sturdy-yet delicate structure of the Cherokee's stabilator knows that it was
> never designed for asymmetric twisting forces like that girl imposed, and
> God only knows what hidden damage may have been wrought in those few seconds
> of awesome stupidity.

Stupidity, and laziness, on his part, likely just lack of knowledge on
hers (not because she's a woman, but because by the time most people are
pilots, they've been schooled on where NOT to push).

Jay Honeck wrote:
> As we were preparing to depart the Quad Cities Air Show yesterday (an
> If there was ever any doubt as to why we were so happy to get out of the
> aircraft rental market, this was it. Anyone who has ever seen the
> sturdy-yet delicate structure of the Cherokee's stabilator knows that it was
> never designed for asymmetric twisting forces like that girl imposed, and
> God only knows what hidden damage may have been wrought in those few seconds
> of awesome stupidity.


Since you recognize the bird, you'd be doing somebody a tremendous favor by
cluing in their maintenance facility to the possibility of damage. If something
ever happens to that airplane where it comes apart in the air and you didn't
warn them, you'll never be able to live with yourself.

Hey, it might be nothing... but it might mean the lives of a family of four.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Jay Honeck schrieb:

> sturdy-yet delicate structure of the Cherokee's stabilator knows that it was
> never designed for asymmetric twisting forces like that girl imposed, and
> God only knows what hidden damage may have been wrought in those few seconds
> of awesome stupidity.

That stabilizer is designed to stand much more twisting force than any
real life girl could ever apply to it. Otherwise it would come off
during the first reasonable bumpy flight. (Nevertheless you shouldn't do
what she had done, of course.)

Stefan

Since you recognized the N-number, perhaps you should tell
the owner about what you saw.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:kf7hg.764747$084.87755@attbi_s22...
| As we were preparing to depart the Quad Cities Air Show
yesterday (an
| outstanding show, BTW, with the Blue Angels and perfect
spring weather), I
| became aware of a Piper Warrior having difficulty a few
aircraft down from
| us.
|
| All transient aircraft had been parked in the grass off
the parallel taxiway
| for Rwy 15/33, and it seemed that this fellow was having
trouble taxiing
| back up onto the hard surface. His nosewheel was tight up
against the
| concrete lip, and he wasn't going anywhere now that he had
lost his "running
| start" at the step. I recognized the Warrior's tail
number as being a
| well-used rental bird from a nearby airport...
|
| Just as we started walking toward him to lend a hand, he
shut the engine
| down, and the door popped open. I figured he'd push the
plane back for
| another try at it, or perhaps try pulling the plane up
onto the hard surface
| with a tow bar.
|
| Instead, out popped this guy's girl friend, who proceeded
to walk back to
| the stabilator, hunch down, put her shoulder into it, and
started to PUSH
| THE PLANE BACK ON THE GRASS, straining as hard as she
could!
|
| Appalled, I started to shout something, but I was too far
away to be heard.
| In horror I watched as she pushed the plane backwards
through the grass
| about ten feet, not by pushing on anything sturdy, but by
really leaning
| into the thin aluminum, whilst her boyfriend sat all the
while quite
| comfortably strapped into his seat.
|
| Worse, she wasn't pushing down near the fuselage, where it
might take the
| load, but was rather giving her all way out at the end, by
the fiberglass
| tip, obviously unaware of the tremendous twisting force
she was exerting on
| the Piper's relatively delicate empennage.
|
| Before I could move further, she stood up, wiped her hands
on her shorts,
| and hopped back in the plane. This time he really gunned
the engine and
| popped right up onto the hard surface, and taxied merrily
away -- completely
| oblivious to the hidden damage his girlfriend may have
just wrought on that
| Warrior.
|
| If there was ever any doubt as to why we were so happy to
get out of the
| aircraft rental market, this was it. Anyone who has ever
seen the
| sturdy-yet delicate structure of the Cherokee's stabilator
knows that it was
| never designed for asymmetric twisting forces like that
girl imposed, and
| God only knows what hidden damage may have been wrought in
those few seconds
| of awesome stupidity.
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|
| --
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|
|

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
> Since you recognize the bird, you'd be doing somebody a tremendous favor by
> cluing in their maintenance facility to the possibility of damage. If something
> ever happens to that airplane where it comes apart in the air and you didn't
> warn them, you'll never be able to live with yourself.
>
> Hey, it might be nothing... but it might mean the lives of a family of four.
>


You took the words right out of my mouth.

> That stabilizer is designed to stand much more twisting force than any
> real life girl could ever apply to it. Otherwise it would come off during
> the first reasonable bumpy flight. (Nevertheless you shouldn't do what she
> had done, of course.)

There are two stabilator attach points that would have been under tremendous
twisting load with her pushing waaaay out at the end of the "arm" of the
stabilator. I can't think of any in-flight condition that would put such an
asymmetric load on the bird.

Also, you must figure that the plane is 30+ years old. God knows how many
other times those attach points have been subjected to overload.

I cringe every time I think of it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

> wrote in message
...
> Stupidity, and laziness, on his part, likely just lack of knowledge
> on hers

Yup, certainly. A passenger has no responsibility to be educated about such
things. It's the pilot's responsibility to be educated and to instruct
passengers accordingly.

--Gary

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Bafhg.19946$1i1.17134@attbi_s72...
> Also, you must figure that the plane is 30+ years old. God knows how many
> other times those attach points have been subjected to overload.
>
> I cringe every time I think of it.

I wish planes (especially rental planes) had "Do not push here!" stenciled
on tempting but inappropriate places to push. That would be as useful as
many of the other placards.

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:Bafhg.19946$1i1.17134@attbi_s72...
>> Also, you must figure that the plane is 30+ years old. God knows how many
>> other times those attach points have been subjected to overload.
>>
>> I cringe every time I think of it.
>
> I wish planes (especially rental planes) had "Do not push here!" stenciled
> on tempting but inappropriate places to push. That would be as useful as
> many of the other placards.


I remember looking at the stickers on the control surfaces of a Yak at
SMO some years back.

They said "NO PUSHSKI"

As for the pair featured in Jay's posting, I gotta wonder:

What kind of guy sends The Girl to push the plane?

What kind of girl puts up with it?

-jav

> There are two stabilator attach points that would have been under tremendous
> twisting load with her pushing waaaay out at the end of the "arm" of the
> stabilator. I can't think of any in-flight condition that would put such an
> asymmetric load on the bird.

The bearings/bushings are a source of stabilator wear that must be
continuously assessed.
Part of my preflight on the Cherokee Six I fly is to grasp the leading
and trailing edge free end and gently move it fore/aft/up/down to
determine the amount of play.
As I wrote back in March, I have not yet found anyone to tell me how
much play in the bearings is acceptable before grounding the aircraft
for excessive play.

Gary Drescher wrote:
>
>
> I wish planes (especially rental planes) had "Do not push here!" stenciled
> on tempting but inappropriate places to push.

Mine does.

The placards are available at all the Aircraft Spruce or Sporty's type
places.

> What kind of guy sends The Girl to push the plane?

I'm embarrased to say (but I was young, at the time), that I used to
have an old VW bug! I had to park it on hills, because 7 times out of
10 it had to be jump started. My wife (girlfriend at the time) used to
have to give me a bit of a push, from time to time, when we got into
situations that warranted it. I tried many times to have her behind
the wheel, but she just couldn't seem to figure out the whole "popping
the clutch" thing.

> What kind of girl puts up with it?

Mine, thank God!!! We've been together for nearly 22 years now, and we
still laugh about how I managed to "land her", after having had her
push start my car to go on dates with me! :-)

To this day, I still open the door for her, pump gas for her and try to
do all the things a guy should do for his gal. I'm just glad she gave
a 17 year old knuck-head the benefit of the doubt! (She does know,
however, not to touch the delicate parts of the plane though!)

Best Regards,
Todd

Javier > wrote:
> What kind of guy sends The Girl to push the plane?

A lazy one who takes the "I'd do it, but since the door is on your side
and you have to get out *anyway* ..."

> What kind of girl puts up with it?

One who thinks she's helping?

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Jay Honeck schrieb:
>
> That stabilizer is designed to stand much more twisting force than any
> real life girl could ever apply to it. > Stefan


No. It isn't.

Karl
"Curator"
N185KG

john smith wrote:
> As I wrote back in March, I have not yet found anyone to tell me how
> much play in the bearings is acceptable before grounding the aircraft
> for excessive play.



If it comes loose i n your hands, it's probably a no-go item.

You're welcome... glad to help.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

I had the bushings changed out on my Seneca. I brought it to my
mechanics attention. Holding the end of the stabilizer, it had some for
and aft movement. I can't recall how much. Eigth of an inch? It was just
beyond the detectable point, anyway. Now years later, still zero play.

john smith wrote:
>>There are two stabilator attach points that would have been under tremendous
>>twisting load with her pushing waaaay out at the end of the "arm" of the
>>stabilator. I can't think of any in-flight condition that would put such an
>>asymmetric load on the bird.
>
>
> The bearings/bushings are a source of stabilator wear that must be
> continuously assessed.
> Part of my preflight on the Cherokee Six I fly is to grasp the leading
> and trailing edge free end and gently move it fore/aft/up/down to
> determine the amount of play.
> As I wrote back in March, I have not yet found anyone to tell me how
> much play in the bearings is acceptable before grounding the aircraft
> for excessive play.

> > As I wrote back in March, I have not yet found anyone to tell me how
> > much play in the bearings is acceptable before grounding the aircraft
> > for excessive play.

> If it comes loose i n your hands, it's probably a no-go item.
> You're welcome... glad to help.

I thought there might be something I was overlooking.

> > What kind of guy sends The Girl to push the plane?
>
> I'm embarrased to say (but I was young, at the time), that I used to
> have an old VW bug! I had to park it on hills, because 7 times out of
> 10 it had to be jump started. My wife (girlfriend at the time) used to
> have to give me a bit of a push, from time to time, when we got into
> situations that warranted it.

When Mary and I first started dating, I owned a '72 VW 411. In its
hey-day, it was a fine car, with a Porsche pancake engine, and some
really unique features.

Unfortunately, I owned it long after its hey-day. The gasoline heater
would pump smoky carbon-monoxide directly into the passenger
compartment, which -- in Wisconsin, in the dead of winter -- meant that
we either froze to death or asphyxiated. We usually chose the former,
which meant that poor Mary had to scrape the windshield -- on the
INSIDE -- in order for me to see. (Hey, at least she kept warm that
way!)

And I felt bad about *THAT*. At least she didn't have to push-start
the 411!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> The gasoline heater
> would pump smoky carbon-monoxide directly into the passenger
> compartment,

Gasoline heater? How does that work? (resist the temptation to say "not
very well!") <g>
--
Jim in NC

Same as on most light twins, or the oil heater in your
basement. Fuel is sprayed in a mist, which burns and is
exhausted. The fire is inside a sealed unit and a heat
exchanger transfers the heat to the air which is circulated
into the passenger compartment. Works very well as long as
it hasn't rusted out and the combustion and ventilation air
mix.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jay Honeck" > wrote
|
| > The gasoline heater
| > would pump smoky carbon-monoxide directly into the
passenger
| > compartment,
|
| Gasoline heater? How does that work? (resist the
temptation to say "not
| very well!") <g>
| --
| Jim in NC
|
|

Morgans wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote
>
>> The gasoline heater
>> would pump smoky carbon-monoxide directly into the passenger
>> compartment,
>
> Gasoline heater? How does that work? (resist the temptation to say "not
> very well!") <g>



Do a google search on the Janitrol heater. It's the one which used to leak
carbon monoxide in such quanities that I had the choice of flying with a
blanket or flying with a headache. It drew fuel directly out of the wing tanks
on the PA-23. Many light twins used it... and some not so light: the C-47 had
one too.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote
>
> Do a google search on the Janitrol heater. It's the one which used to
> leak carbon monoxide in such quanities that I had the choice of flying
> with a blanket or flying with a headache. It drew fuel directly out of
> the wing tanks on the PA-23. Many light twins used it... and some not so
> light: the C-47 had one too.

I was not aware that VW's ever used janitrol heaters. I know of their use
in aircraft, and all of the problems they can cause.

I'm simply amazed that a car would have one of those "creatures." What ever
happened to VW simplicity? The good old heat muff? Of course, their
problems are well know too, but at least they don't involve flammable
liquids!
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote
>>
>> Do a google search on the Janitrol heater. It's the one which used to
>> leak carbon monoxide in such quanities that I had the choice of flying
>> with a blanket or flying with a headache. It drew fuel directly out of
>> the wing tanks on the PA-23. Many light twins used it... and some not so
>> light: the C-47 had one too.
>
> I was not aware that VW's ever used janitrol heaters. I know of their use
> in aircraft, and all of the problems they can cause.
>
> I'm simply amazed that a car would have one of those "creatures." What
> ever happened to VW simplicity? The good old heat muff? Of course, their
> problems are well know too, but at least they don't involve flammable
> liquids!
> --
> Jim in NC


Even the Beetle offered one as an option. The standard heater was a joke.
I spent a couple of winters in the late '60s with a brand new Beetle with
the stock heater and after that I will never own a Volkswagen product. We
used to open the windows in below zero temperatures to warm up.

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote
>>
>>>Do a google search on the Janitrol heater. It's the one which used to
>>>leak carbon monoxide in such quanities that I had the choice of flying
>>>with a blanket or flying with a headache. It drew fuel directly out of
>>>the wing tanks on the PA-23. Many light twins used it... and some not so
>>>light: the C-47 had one too.
>>
>>I was not aware that VW's ever used janitrol heaters. I know of their use
>>in aircraft, and all of the problems they can cause.
>>
>>I'm simply amazed that a car would have one of those "creatures." What
>>ever happened to VW simplicity? The good old heat muff? Of course, their
>>problems are well know too, but at least they don't involve flammable
>>liquids!
>>--
>>Jim in NC
>
>
>
> Even the Beetle offered one as an option. The standard heater was a joke.
> I spent a couple of winters in the late '60s with a brand new Beetle with
> the stock heater and after that I will never own a Volkswagen product. We
> used to open the windows in below zero temperatures to warm up.

You won't buy a VW product today because of the heater design of a car
they designed in the 1930s? Wow...

I guess you don't fly aluminum airplanes either or those powered by a
Lycoming or Continental... :-)

Matt

("Dave Stadt" wrote)
> Even the Beetle offered one as an option. The standard heater was a joke.
> I spent a couple of winters in the late '60s with a brand new Beetle with
> the stock heater and after that I will never own a Volkswagen product. We
> used to open the windows in below zero temperatures to warm up.


On your 7 year old "winter beater" in 1978:

Saw-off, where the hot air tube in the engine bay splits (to run warm air
under the OUTSIDE floorboards!!!). Connect a hairdryer type metal hose to
that hot air tube stump. Run it through the rear firewall, up the roofline,
and down behind the rearview mirror. There, warmish air on the dash. A
longer hose will keep your feet toasty - in theory. :-)

I drove my VW Bugs with a 3M mask on and the windows open - until I hit the
Freeway, then I'd close the window (almost) all the way. This was a perfect
way to prevent the windshield from frosting up. Another helpful trick was a
metal school bus fan screwed onto the dash. <g>

Mittens and snowmobile boots came off in March. Hat came off in April.

Good car in snow! Always started.


Montblack

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

/snip/ Many light twins used it... and some not so light: the C-47 had
> one too.
>
>

The DC-6 has four: one for the cabin and three for the wings and tail.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

"Dave Stadt" > wrote

> Even the Beetle offered one as an option. The standard heater was a joke.
> I spent a couple of winters in the late '60s with a brand new Beetle with
> the stock heater and after that I will never own a Volkswagen product. We
> used to open the windows in below zero temperatures to warm up.

I owned a 68 Corvair, while I still lived in Northern Ohio, and it had a
heater to die for! The difference is that the Corvair used heat off of the
cooling fins, and it would get so hot, if you left your hand directly in
front of the outlet for more than about 10 seconds, you would scald your
hand!

The problem came with the push-rod O-ring seals. I (with Dad) replaced them
at the start of every winter, then you got no oil on the fins, and thus, no
CO. He made a tool to pull the tubes, and we could get the job done in a
hour or two.

The Beetle I owned was in NC, and the heater was a joke, but at least I
didn't need it very much. The defroster was my big complaint.
--
Jim in NC

Place I worked was a Beech dealer with the FSDO right across
the street. The feds would rent our airplanes all the time
for training, transportation and currency. When ever they
wrote a squawk, the boss had it in the shop immediately, if
not faster.
One day two feds rented a Duchess and came back with a
squawk, encoder inop.

It was in avionics in about 5 minutes, in ten minutes the
avionics head came into the flight department and reported,
"encoder not installed.


Needless to say, an encoder was installed within the hour.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Dave Stadt" > wrote
|
| > Even the Beetle offered one as an option. The standard
heater was a joke.
| > I spent a couple of winters in the late '60s with a
brand new Beetle with
| > the stock heater and after that I will never own a
Volkswagen product. We
| > used to open the windows in below zero temperatures to
warm up.
|
| I owned a 68 Corvair, while I still lived in Northern
Ohio, and it had a
| heater to die for! The difference is that the Corvair
used heat off of the
| cooling fins, and it would get so hot, if you left your
hand directly in
| front of the outlet for more than about 10 seconds, you
would scald your
| hand!
|
| The problem came with the push-rod O-ring seals. I (with
Dad) replaced them
| at the start of every winter, then you got no oil on the
fins, and thus, no
| CO. He made a tool to pull the tubes, and we could get
the job done in a
| hour or two.
|
| The Beetle I owned was in NC, and the heater was a joke,
but at least I
| didn't need it very much. The defroster was my big
complaint.
| --
| Jim in NC
|
|

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Dave Stadt" wrote)
>> Even the Beetle offered one as an option. The standard heater was a
>> joke. I spent a couple of winters in the late '60s with a brand new
>> Beetle with the stock heater and after that I will never own a Volkswagen
>> product. We used to open the windows in below zero temperatures to warm
>> up.
>
>
> On your 7 year old "winter beater" in 1978:
>
> Saw-off, where the hot air tube in the engine bay splits (to run warm air
> under the OUTSIDE floorboards!!!). Connect a hairdryer type metal hose to
> that hot air tube stump. Run it through the rear firewall, up the
> roofline, and down behind the rearview mirror. There, warmish air on the
> dash. A longer hose will keep your feet toasty - in theory. :-)
>
> I drove my VW Bugs with a 3M mask on and the windows open - until I hit
> the Freeway, then I'd close the window (almost) all the way. This was a
> perfect way to prevent the windshield from frosting up. Another helpful
> trick was a metal school bus fan screwed onto the dash. <g>
>
> Mittens and snowmobile boots came off in March. Hat came off in April.
>
> Good car in snow! Always started.
>
>
> Montblack

Good in the snow unless you had to turn a corner.

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>> "Morgans" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote
>>>
>>>>Do a google search on the Janitrol heater. It's the one which used to
>>>>leak carbon monoxide in such quanities that I had the choice of flying
>>>>with a blanket or flying with a headache. It drew fuel directly out of
>>>>the wing tanks on the PA-23. Many light twins used it... and some not
>>>>so light: the C-47 had one too.
>>>
>>>I was not aware that VW's ever used janitrol heaters. I know of their
>>>use in aircraft, and all of the problems they can cause.
>>>
>>>I'm simply amazed that a car would have one of those "creatures." What
>>>ever happened to VW simplicity? The good old heat muff? Of course,
>>>their problems are well know too, but at least they don't involve
>>>flammable liquids!
>>>--
>>>Jim in NC
>>
>>
>>
>> Even the Beetle offered one as an option. The standard heater was a
>> joke. I spent a couple of winters in the late '60s with a brand new
>> Beetle with the stock heater and after that I will never own a Volkswagen
>> product. We used to open the windows in below zero temperatures to warm
>> up.
>
> You won't buy a VW product today because of the heater design of a car
> they designed in the 1930s? Wow...

That's right. If they built the things from the 1930s to 1968 and still
couldn't get the heater to work that's fatal in my book.

> I guess you don't fly aluminum airplanes either or those powered by a
> Lycoming or Continental... :-)

Rag wings but the rest is aluminium. Continental is OK but not sure about
Lycoming. Would prefer round as those flat ones are still wet behind the
ears.

> Matt

On 2006-06-07, Dave Stadt > wrote:
> Even the Beetle offered one as an option. The standard heater was a joke.
> I spent a couple of winters in the late '60s with a brand new Beetle with
> the stock heater and after that I will never own a Volkswagen product. We
> used to open the windows in below zero temperatures to warm up.

When I was a student in the 1990s, I had a 1969 BMC Mini. It had the
opposite problem. The engine radiator was inadequate for the warm summer
months, so to get adequate engine cooling I had to turn the heater on
full blast to provide extra cooling for the water, and sweat it out!

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

On 2006-06-06, Stefan > wrote:
> That stabilizer is designed to stand much more twisting force than any
> real life girl could ever apply to it.

Never underestimate the damage that can be caused by a point load at the
tip of a flight surface. I don't know about Cherokee stabilators and
girl point loads - but even a 1 mph tagging of a wingtip on a hangar can
bend spars on the inboard portion of the wing. Seemingly small point
loads on wingtips can cause all sorts of unseen damage. I believe
Highflyer has a story about a Taylorcraft spar and a compression
fracture he discovered in flight after a minor wingtip tagging incident.
Our club's C170 got a kinked aft spar after a minor wingtip tagging
incident.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

> Unfortunately, I owned it long after its hey-day. The gasoline heater
> would pump smoky carbon-monoxide directly into the passenger
> compartment, which -- in Wisconsin, in the dead of winter -- meant that
> we either froze to death or asphyxiated. We usually chose the former,
> which meant that poor Mary had to scrape the windshield -- on the
> INSIDE -- in order for me to see. (Hey, at least she kept warm that
> way!)

ummm... yeah... speaking of windshield... My windshield wipers had a
work/not work ratio similar to the starter. I spent many rainy nights
driving down the road with my right hand on the wheel, and my left arm
getting soaked using my left hand as a windshield wiper!

That car sucked!!! I sure do miss it... ;-)

Cheers,
Todd

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>> As we were preparing to depart the Quad Cities Air Show yesterday<<<

.... <snip witnessed act of complete ignorance> ...

I'll add my comment to the chorus of others suggesting you clue in the
renting FBO as to what you saw the renter do with their airplane.

On 2006-06-07 15:18, three-eight-hotel wrote:
>>Unfortunately, I owned it long after its hey-day. The gasoline heater
>>would pump smoky carbon-monoxide directly into the passenger
>>compartment, which -- in Wisconsin, in the dead of winter -- meant that
>>we either froze to death or asphyxiated. We usually chose the former,
>>which meant that poor Mary had to scrape the windshield -- on the
>>INSIDE -- in order for me to see. (Hey, at least she kept warm that
>>way!)
>
>
> ummm... yeah... speaking of windshield... My windshield wipers had a
> work/not work ratio similar to the starter. I spent many rainy nights
> driving down the road with my right hand on the wheel, and my left arm
> getting soaked using my left hand as a windshield wiper!
>
> That car sucked!!! I sure do miss it... ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Todd
>

A couple of friend were on a long trip when the wiper motor gave up in
their VW Beetle, but they found a remedy in a piece of string;
opening the small ventilation windows on both doors, the string was
threaded through outside and tied to the wipers, then the passenger
acted as motor :)

> As I wrote back in March, I have not yet found anyone to tell me how
> much play in the bearings is acceptable before grounding the aircraft
> for excessive play.

Quite true -- and this ambiguousness isn't limited to just stabilator
bushings. It's throughout the aircraft repair industry.

Example: On my old Warrior, the "corporate" shop (who fleeced be for a $5K
"annual", back in '98) mentioned that the "spindle" that the trim cable
wraps around (back in the tail section) had too much free-play in it.

Of course, they wanted a zillion dollars to fix it.

By then, I was pretty much broke, so I agreed to do it ASAP after the
annual, and they signed it off.

Instead, I ran as hard and fast as I could from that shop, and landed in my
current A&P's shop. He looked at it and said the free-play was perfectly
normal, and it needed no maintenance or attention at all.

The subsequent owner never touched it -- and, to my knowledge, it's been
signed off at annuals ever since, without maintenance.

Morale: Find out the financial situation of your mechanic's shop BEFORE you
take your plane to them. It's funny how that condition will directly
impact their perceived condition of your plane.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article <NDChg.21352$No1.2367@attbi_s71>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>
> Morale: Find out the financial situation of your mechanic's shop BEFORE you
> take your plane to them. It's funny how that condition will directly
> impact their perceived condition of your plane.
> --

Or as Click and Clack repeatedly say, never take your car in for service
just before the shop owner's boat payment is coming due.

I had a '64 VW bus and it had a gasoline heater.
Morgans wrote:
> "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote
> >
> > Do a google search on the Janitrol heater. It's the one which used to
> > leak carbon monoxide in such quanities that I had the choice of flying
> > with a blanket or flying with a headache. It drew fuel directly out of
> > the wing tanks on the PA-23. Many light twins used it... and some not so
> > light: the C-47 had one too.
>
> I was not aware that VW's ever used janitrol heaters. I know of their use
> in aircraft, and all of the problems they can cause.
>
> I'm simply amazed that a car would have one of those "creatures." What ever
> happened to VW simplicity? The good old heat muff? Of course, their
> problems are well know too, but at least they don't involve flammable
> liquids!
> --
> Jim in NC

>"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
> Worse, she wasn't pushing down near the fuselage, where it might take the
> load, but was rather giving her all way out at the end, by the fiberglass
> tip, obviously unaware of the tremendous twisting force she was exerting
on
> the Piper's relatively delicate empennage.

Not good, but sometimes structures are stronger than we might think. I've
seen where a firetruck caught the tip of an Arrow's stab. The stab was
turned 45 degrees but didn't bend. The fuselage failed in front of the stab.

D.

On 2006-06-06, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> All transient aircraft had been parked in the grass off the parallel taxiway
> for Rwy 15/33, and it seemed that this fellow was having trouble taxiing
> back up onto the hard surface. His nosewheel was tight up against the
> concrete lip, and he wasn't going anywhere

And let me guess -- the elevator was at rest, fully nose-down? We
nosedragger pilots are a menace on grass. ;-)

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

In article >,
"Dave Stadt" > wrote:

> That's right. If they built the things from the 1930s to 1968 and still
> couldn't get the heater to work that's fatal in my book.

But they didn't go to a 12Vdc system until the early 60's.

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote:
>
>> That's right. If they built the things from the 1930s to 1968 and still
>> couldn't get the heater to work that's fatal in my book.
>
> But they didn't go to a 12Vdc system until the early 60's.

Another strike against VW.

>>>>> "JH" == Jay Honeck > writes:
JH> whilst her boyfriend sat all the while quite comfortably
JH> strapped into his seat.

JH> her shorts

Damn, sounds like a fine girlfriend.

> Damn, sounds like a fine girlfriend.

Agreed!

I admire her spirit, if not her knowledge. She just jumped right out and
started working, driving that aircraft backwards without a moment's
hesitation -- almost like she'd done it before.

Oh, well. I once watched a new owner push his airplane into the hangar by
pushing as hard as he could on the spinner. Stuff happens.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

by "Jay Honeck" > Jun 6, 2006 at 01:12 PM


> That stabilizer is designed to stand much more twisting force than any
> real life girl could ever apply to it. Otherwise it would come off
during
> the first reasonable bumpy flight. (Nevertheless you shouldn't do what
she
> had done, of course.)

There are two stabilator attach points that would have been under
tremendous
twisting load with her pushing waaaay out at the end of the "arm" of the
stabilator. I can't think of any in-flight condition that would put such
an
asymmetric load on the bird.

Also, you must figure that the plane is 30+ years old. God knows how
many

other times those attach points have been subjected to overload.

I cringe every time I think of it.
<<

Sounds like the FAA is correct in studying older planes, a study which the
AOPA is (naturally) "opposing."

> Sounds like the FAA is correct in studying older planes, a study which the
> AOPA is (naturally) "opposing."

What's the FAA got to do with it? The aircraft *operators* are FAR more
interested in "studying" their older planes than any government bureaucracy.

The point you continually miss is that we don't NEED a government entity
involved in GA -- or most anything else in our society. Aircraft operators
have the highest possible motivation to keep their aircraft airworthy (I.E.:
Presumably they don't want to die -- I know *I* don't.).

In my lifetime of experience, beyond the basics (road construction,
sidewalks, etc.) government doesn't solve ANYTHING. (Or, at best, after 47
years, I'm still awaiting evidence of any success.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

by "Jay Honeck" > Jun 8, 2006 at 01:30 PM


> Sounds like the FAA is correct in studying older planes, a study which
the
> AOPA is (naturally) "opposing."

What's the FAA got to do with it? The aircraft *operators* are FAR more

interested in "studying" their older planes than any government
bureaucracy.

The point you continually miss is that we don't NEED a government entity
involved in GA -- or most anything else in our society. Aircraft
operators
have the highest possible motivation to keep their aircraft airworthy
(I.E.:
Presumably they don't want to die -- I know *I* don't.).

In my lifetime of experience, beyond the basics (road construction,
sidewalks, etc.) government doesn't solve ANYTHING. (Or, at best, after
47
years, I'm still awaiting evidence of any success.)

<<

I don't like regulation much, but some is necessary to protect the public
(speed limits, auto inspections, etc.). The FAA's purported role is
ensuring safety, and as you said, you cannot be sure if a rental has been
damaged from pushing on the wing-tips.

As the planes are coming down onto homes now (another one outside Reno --
fortunately no one on the ground killed this time), the FAA must get
involved. Of course they also want to PROMOTE aviation, so they are
hopelessly conflicted.

You're right Luney, the FAA must get involved. They must stop
developers from building houses, office buildings, malls etc. in the
departure & arrival paths of airports. I suspect there are no more
occurrences of aircraft crashing now than 40 years ago (although with
the pilot population in decline the figure may be less), but with so
much development on top of airports any crash is more likely to hit a
building now.

Skylune wrote:
>
> As the planes are coming down onto homes now (another one outside Reno --
> fortunately no one on the ground killed this time), the FAA must get
> involved. Of course they also want to PROMOTE aviation, so they are
> hopelessly conflicted.

("De Loon, De Loon wrote")


Loon, I have an idea just for you.

DO NOT including any quoted material from the previous post. That might work
best - for all. It'll be easier to read your posts that way.

Don't worry about us, we'll keep up with the flow of the thread on our end.
Thanks.


Montblack

by "Kingfish" > Jun 8, 2006 at 10:16 AM


You're right Luney, the FAA must get involved. They must stop
developers from building houses, office buildings, malls etc. in the
departure & arrival paths of airports. I suspect there are no more
occurrences of aircraft crashing now than 40 years ago (although with
the pilot population in decline the figure may be less), but with so
much development on top of airports any crash is more likely to hit a
building now.


<<

Of course you are correct, as always. All development, populuation
growth, etc. must be absolutely subservient to the needs of GA.

OK, Mont. Fly safe.

("Skylune" wrote)
> OK, Mont. Fly safe.


Thanks, and thanks ...I'll pass it on to the pilot. :-)


Montblack

My post was meant as tongue-in-cheek (somewhat). Nobody need be
subservient to GA, but just as you take every opportunity to trash
Boyer and AOPA on this forum (ad nauseum) I can use your same absurd
brand of logic to argue that the FAA should, in the interest of
promoting aviation safety, make more of an effort to restrict
developers from encroaching on airports (large & small) thus
endangering building occupants.

>>Skylune wrote:
>
> Of course you are correct, as always. All development, populuation
> growth, etc. must be absolutely subservient to the needs of GA.

Below is a map of your "no build zone." It looks like maybe there is an
area in Nevada that the population should be re-located to. Oh, wait,
that's military space. Oh well...

http://www.gaservingamerica.com/Serving_Your_Community/airport_near_you.htm

Piper may have changed their ways. As I recall the leading edge of the
J-3 stabalizer was a solid steal tube, perfect for pushing on (which is
not unusual when pulling taildraggers since you can't steer if you push
from the front of the aircraft). It also had a handle right under it to
help you.

-Robert


Jay Honeck wrote:
> As we were preparing to depart the Quad Cities Air Show yesterday (an
> outstanding show, BTW, with the Blue Angels and perfect spring weather), I
> became aware of a Piper Warrior having difficulty a few aircraft down from
> us.

In article . com>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Piper may have changed their ways. As I recall the leading edge of the
> J-3 stabalizer was a solid steal tube, perfect for pushing on (which is
> not unusual when pulling taildraggers since you can't steer if you push
> from the front of the aircraft). It also had a handle right under it to
> help you.

The propper method is to pick the tail up by the handle and push/pull
the aircraft. No one should push on the vertical or horizontal
stabilizer to manuever the aircraft on the ground.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Piper may have changed their ways. As I recall the leading edge of the
> J-3 stabalizer was a solid steal tube, perfect for pushing on (which is

That is the absolute worst place to push. Most owners would excuse you from
the vicinity of their J3 forever if you tried such a dumb stunt.


> not unusual when pulling taildraggers since you can't steer if you push
> from the front of the aircraft). It also had a handle right under it to
> help you.

I have no problem steering my taildragger when pushing from the front.

> -Robert

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > Piper may have changed their ways. As I recall the leading edge of the
> > J-3 stabalizer was a solid steal tube, perfect for pushing on (which is
>
> That is the absolute worst place to push. Most owners would excuse you from
> the vicinity of their J3 forever if you tried such a dumb stunt.

I'm not sure what the basis of your statement is. I just know that when
I had the J-3 the mechanic showed me this as the proper way to get it
over the grass hump and into the shade hanger. Pulling on the handle
was very hard to get leverage to pull the plane through the grass. I'm
basing my understanding on what the mechanic told me to do (I don't
consider that basis to be "dumb" in your words). On what do you base
your understanding?

-Robert

In article >,
Dave Stadt > wrote:
>
>
>That's right. If they built the things from the 1930s to 1968 and still
>couldn't get the heater to work that's fatal in my book.
>

They fixed it in the late 50s. From the 1200cc engine on it had a set of
thermostatically controled flaps that restricted and guided hot air
to improve heating and not overcool the engine.

Problem is, most idiot mechanics remove them and you have an engine that
never gets warm and thus no heat.


--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | "World domination, now"
http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds

"Eduardo K." > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Dave Stadt > wrote:
>>
>>
>>That's right. If they built the things from the 1930s to 1968 and still
>>couldn't get the heater to work that's fatal in my book.
>>
>
> They fixed it in the late 50s. From the 1200cc engine on it had a set of
> thermostatically controled flaps that restricted and guided hot air
> to improve heating and not overcool the engine.
>
> Problem is, most idiot mechanics remove them and you have an engine that
> never gets warm and thus no heat.

Not true, a brand new '68 had for all practical purposes no heat.

>
>
> --
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | "World domination, now"
> http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > Piper may have changed their ways. As I recall the leading edge of the
>> > J-3 stabalizer was a solid steal tube, perfect for pushing on (which is
>>
>> That is the absolute worst place to push. Most owners would excuse you
>> from
>> the vicinity of their J3 forever if you tried such a dumb stunt.
>
> I'm not sure what the basis of your statement is. I just know that when
> I had the J-3 the mechanic showed me this as the proper way to get it
> over the grass hump and into the shade hanger. Pulling on the handle
> was very hard to get leverage to pull the plane through the grass. I'm
> basing my understanding on what the mechanic told me to do (I don't
> consider that basis to be "dumb" in your words). On what do you base
> your understanding?
>
> -Robert

Look at the way that NOT solid 'steal' tube is attached to the airframe and
common sense says hands off. If I believed everything mechanics told me I
would have been killed at least 10 times.

So if you do not trust the A&P to tell you what part of the aircraft is
structurally sound enough what do you base your assertion on? Do you
completely disassemble every aircraft you fly and evaluate the
engineering design and structure of the entire aircraft yourself? Did
you require yourself to earn your structural engineernig degree before
working on your private? I'm still challenging your assertion that
trusting an A&P makes a pilot "dumb" and that only those of you
enlightened enough to have <something you have yet to share with us>
are not "dumb".

-Robert

Dave Stadt wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> Look at the way that NOT solid 'steal' tube is attached to the airframe and
> common sense says hands off. If I believed everything mechanics told me I
> would have been killed at least 10 times.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> So if you do not trust the A&P to tell you what part of the aircraft is
> structurally sound enough what do you base your assertion on?

Haven't flown a lot of airplanes but the J3 is one in which I do have time.
I do learn the structure and method of assembly of each plane I fly.

>Do you
> completely disassemble every aircraft you fly and evaluate the
> engineering design and structure of the entire aircraft yourself? Did
> you require yourself to earn your structural engineernig degree before
> working on your private? I'm still challenging your assertion that
> trusting an A&P makes a pilot "dumb" and that only those of you
> enlightened enough to have <something you have yet to share with us>
> are not "dumb".

I tend to trust no single source including A&Ps. Never know if the one you
are talking to graduated first or last in the class. Some are outstanding
and some are simply wrench twisters and not very good at that.

> -Robert
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> Look at the way that NOT solid 'steal' tube is attached to the airframe
>> and
>> common sense says hands off. If I believed everything mechanics told me
>> I
>> would have been killed at least 10 times.
>

Javier wrote:
> Gary Drescher wrote:
>
>> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>> news:Bafhg.19946$1i1.17134@attbi_s72...
>>
>>> Also, you must figure that the plane is 30+ years old. God knows how
>>> many other times those attach points have been subjected to overload.
>>>
>>> I cringe every time I think of it.
>>
>>
>> I wish planes (especially rental planes) had "Do not push here!"
>> stenciled on tempting but inappropriate places to push. That would be
>> as useful as many of the other placards.
>
>
>
> I remember looking at the stickers on the control surfaces of a Yak at
> SMO some years back.
>
> They said "NO PUSHSKI"
>
> As for the pair featured in Jay's posting, I gotta wonder:
>
> What kind of guy sends The Girl to push the plane?
>
> What kind of girl puts up with it?
>
> -jav
I'd push the plane if I thought the other person had to use the rudder.
I'm lucky, I'm a pilot too, so if it requires pushing and rudder I
usually get the rudder duty, but I would push.

Margy

[QUOTE=Jay Honeck]
Just as we started walking toward him to lend a hand, he shut the engine
down, and the door popped open.

out popped this guy's girl friend, who proceeded to walk back to
the stabilator, hunch down, put her shoulder into it, and started to PUSH
THE PLANE BACK ON THE GRASS, straining as hard as she could![/QUOTE=Jay Honeck]

Now that is a good women! Where can I find a girl like that?

David