I recently got intoduced to the Garmin 530. Nice box, advertises 3D nav, but
I couldn't find any referance to step down altitudes on the approach. Is
this not available? I find it hard to believe that they would store every
fix and route in the Western Hemishpere, and leave out a vital portion of
every approach. Do Garmin users all have Jepp subscriptions, and carry them
for the step down fixes?

Al G

Al wrote:
> I recently got intoduced to the Garmin 530. Nice box, advertises 3D nav, but
> I couldn't find any referance to step down altitudes on the approach. Is
> this not available? I find it hard to believe that they would store every
> fix and route in the Western Hemishpere, and leave out a vital portion of
> every approach. Do Garmin users all have Jepp subscriptions, and carry them
> for the step down fixes?

What do you mean "advertises 3D nav"? AFAIK only the GNS480 among the Garmin
certified navigators provides vertical navigation.

Yes, Garmin users subscribe to other services to get the approach charts. The
Garmin MX20 / GMX200 can display approach charts.

Dave

Al > wrote:

> I recently got intoduced to the Garmin 530. Nice box, advertises 3D nav, but
> I couldn't find any referance to step down altitudes on the approach. Is
> this not available? I find it hard to believe that they would store every
> fix and route in the Western Hemishpere, and leave out a vital portion of
> every approach. Do Garmin users all have Jepp subscriptions, and carry them
> for the step down fixes?

I have the GNS430, the smaller brother to the 530, and no, it does not have
step-down altitudes for non-precision approaches. Yes, I carry my Jepp
Airway Manuals for the published instrument procedures.

I would suspect (but do not know for sure) that the FAA may have purposely
prevented this feature under TSO C129a GPS certification.

--
Peter

Thanks Dave,

> What do you mean "advertises 3D nav"?

I guess I was refering to the status page (showing sattelites), where it
says "3D Nav".

Al G


"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1150142029.472883@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Al wrote:
>> I recently got intoduced to the Garmin 530. Nice box, advertises 3D nav,
>> but I couldn't find any referance to step down altitudes on the approach.
>> Is this not available? I find it hard to believe that they would store
>> every fix and route in the Western Hemishpere, and leave out a vital
>> portion of every approach. Do Garmin users all have Jepp subscriptions,
>> and carry them for the step down fixes?
>
> What do you mean "advertises 3D nav"? AFAIK only the GNS480 among the
> Garmin certified navigators provides vertical navigation.
>
> Yes, Garmin users subscribe to other services to get the approach charts.
> The Garmin MX20 / GMX200 can display approach charts.
>
> Dave

Al wrote:
> Thanks Dave,
>
>
>>What do you mean "advertises 3D nav"?
>
>
> I guess I was refering to the status page (showing sattelites), where it
> says "3D Nav".

Ha, yes, I've seen that, but I forgot about it when responding to your message.
I don't know, my best guess is that they intend to say that sufficient satellite
signals are available to determine the position in 3 dimensions. Indeed it is
possible to display the box's notion of altitude but AFAIK that's not usable for
anything except as an interesting number to know and tell about. You can't use
that number for navigation. Only TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that
have any legal meaning.

They are already storing the length, bearing, and position of every leg of
every approach in the world, what's a couple more digits/leg. Even if it's
just listed on the screen as a backup. Seems like they missed a valuable
feature here costing almost nothing.
Sure has that "Agency" smell doesn't it?

Al G


"Dave Butler" > wrote in message
news:1150144310.406024@sj-nntpcache-5...
> Al wrote:
>> Thanks Dave,
>>
>>
>>>What do you mean "advertises 3D nav"?
>>
>>
>> I guess I was refering to the status page (showing sattelites), where it
>> says "3D Nav".
>
> Ha, yes, I've seen that, but I forgot about it when responding to your
> message. I don't know, my best guess is that they intend to say that
> sufficient satellite signals are available to determine the position in 3
> dimensions. Indeed it is possible to display the box's notion of altitude
> but AFAIK that's not usable for anything except as an interesting number
> to know and tell about. You can't use that number for navigation. Only
> TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that have any legal meaning.

Al wrote:
> I recently got intoduced to the Garmin 530. Nice box, advertises 3D nav, but
> I couldn't find any referance to step down altitudes on the approach. Is
> this not available? I find it hard to believe that they would store every
> fix and route in the Western Hemishpere, and leave out a vital portion of
> every approach. Do Garmin users all have Jepp subscriptions, and carry them
> for the step down fixes?
>
> Al G
>
>
>
"3D" means you have sufficient satellites in view for the box to
determine GPS altitude. GPS altitude is not an IFR operational alitude.

The VNAV feature for the 530 is advisory only, primarily to be used as
an en rotue descent aid. The handbook covers it fairly well.

The VNAV line of minima on some RNAV (GPS) approach charts requires
IFR-certified Baro VNAV equipment, which I doubt you have.

LPV line of minima require a TSOC146 box; i.e., the Garmin 480.

You have to use LNAV minima and that requires you adhere to any stepdown
fixes on the approach chart. The Garmin database provides you with the
stepdown fix, but not its minimum altitude.

High-end FMS/LNAV/VNAV navigators do show altitudes at stepdown fixes in
their databases, but they are certified to do that.

Dave Butler wrote:
r
> Only TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that have any
> legal meaning.

And, only for final approach segments that have LPV minimums, not unlike
ILS.

Of ourse they did miss this.

You don't think Jepp, who is selling you approach plates
would approve do you?

I use it along with Pocket Plates, which is an easy way
of getting legal plates $150 yr renewal -- and even I
can lug a whole country's worth.

Bill Hale BPPP instructor

Al wrote:
> They are already storing the length, bearing, and position of every leg of
> every approach in the world, what's a couple more digits/leg. Even if it's
> just listed on the screen as a backup. Seems like they missed a valuable
> feature here costing almost nothing.
> Sure has that "Agency" smell doesn't it?
>
> Al G
>
>
> "Dave Butler" > wrote in message
> news:1150144310.406024@sj-nntpcache-5...
> > Al wrote:
> >> Thanks Dave,
> >>
> >>
> >>>What do you mean "advertises 3D nav"?
> >>
> >>
> >> I guess I was refering to the status page (showing sattelites), where it
> >> says "3D Nav".
> >
> > Ha, yes, I've seen that, but I forgot about it when responding to your
> > message. I don't know, my best guess is that they intend to say that
> > sufficient satellite signals are available to determine the position in 3
> > dimensions. Indeed it is possible to display the box's notion of altitude
> > but AFAIK that's not usable for anything except as an interesting number
> > to know and tell about. You can't use that number for navigation. Only
> > TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that have any legal meaning.

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:xSljg.178884$bm6.144152@fed1read04...
> Dave Butler wrote:
> r
>> Only TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that have any
>> legal meaning.
>
> And, only for final approach segments that have LPV minimums, not unlike
> ILS.

Not so, that part about "only...LPV minimums".
You probably meant LNAV/VNAV minimums, didn't you?

John R. Copeland wrote:
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:xSljg.178884$bm6.144152@fed1read04...
>
>>Dave Butler wrote:
>>r
>>
>>>Only TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that have any
>>>legal meaning.
>>
>>And, only for final approach segments that have LPV minimums, not unlike
>>ILS.
>
>
> Not so, that part about "only...LPV minimums".
> You probably meant LNAV/VNAV minimums, didn't you?
>

No, Mr. Butler stated that TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that
have any legal meaning, and I added that is true, but only for the final
approach segment of an IAP that has LPV minimums.

LNAV/VNAV minimums are valid only for birds with IFR-certified Baro VNAV
equipment. Let me add, for clarification, that Baro VNAV is valid as
the primary means of vertical navigation only for the final approach
segment of an RNAV (GPS) IAP that has an LNAV/VNAV line of minimums.

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:7xojg.178892$bm6.131959@fed1read04...
> John R. Copeland wrote:
>> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:xSljg.178884$bm6.144152@fed1read04...
>>
>>>Dave Butler wrote:
>>>r
>>>
>>>>Only TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that have any
>>>>legal meaning.
>>>
>>>And, only for final approach segments that have LPV minimums, not unlike
>>>ILS.
>>
>>
>> Not so, that part about "only...LPV minimums".
>> You probably meant LNAV/VNAV minimums, didn't you?
>>
>
> No, Mr. Butler stated that TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that
> have any legal meaning, and I added that is true, but only for the final
> approach segment of an IAP that has LPV minimums.
>
> LNAV/VNAV minimums are valid only for birds with IFR-certified Baro VNAV
> equipment. Let me add, for clarification, that Baro VNAV is valid as
> the primary means of vertical navigation only for the final approach
> segment of an RNAV (GPS) IAP that has an LNAV/VNAV line of minimums.

TSO-C146 vertical guidance in either LPV or LNAV/VNAV approaches
does not depend upon barometric settings.
The minimums, though, are based upon barometric altitudes, of course.
Is the latter what you meant to emphasize?

John R. Copeland wrote:
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:7xojg.178892$bm6.131959@fed1read04...
>
>>John R. Copeland wrote:
>>
>>>"Sam Spade" > wrote in message news:xSljg.178884$bm6.144152@fed1read04...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dave Butler wrote:
>>>>r
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Only TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that have any
>>>>>legal meaning.
>>>>
>>>>And, only for final approach segments that have LPV minimums, not unlike
>>>>ILS.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not so, that part about "only...LPV minimums".
>>>You probably meant LNAV/VNAV minimums, didn't you?
>>>
>>
>>No, Mr. Butler stated that TSO146 navigators have altitude outputs that
>>have any legal meaning, and I added that is true, but only for the final
>>approach segment of an IAP that has LPV minimums.
>>
>>LNAV/VNAV minimums are valid only for birds with IFR-certified Baro VNAV
>>equipment. Let me add, for clarification, that Baro VNAV is valid as
>>the primary means of vertical navigation only for the final approach
>>segment of an RNAV (GPS) IAP that has an LNAV/VNAV line of minimums.
>
>
> TSO-C146 vertical guidance in either LPV or LNAV/VNAV approaches
> does not depend upon barometric settings.
> The minimums, though, are based upon barometric altitudes, of course.
> Is the latter what you meant to emphasize?
>
What I meant to emphasize is that neither LPV nor Baro VNAV are primary
for vertical nav in any phase of IFR flight, except from the precision
FAF to the DA point in an IAP that supports either LPV or Baro VNAV as
primary for the final segment.

That's why I find very annoying about Garmin, you still need to carry a
full set of charts. The 530 only gives you references to fixes, not
altitudes. Also, if you get assigned an airway inroute, be ready to
grab that old enroute chart, Garmin doesn't believe in airways.
This is still true in the G1000.

-Robert


Al wrote:
> I recently got intoduced to the Garmin 530. Nice box, advertises 3D nav, but
> I couldn't find any referance to step down altitudes on the approach. Is
> this not available? I find it hard to believe that they would store every
> fix and route in the Western Hemishpere, and leave out a vital portion of
> every approach. Do Garmin users all have Jepp subscriptions, and carry them
> for the step down fixes?
>
> Al G

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> ... Garmin doesn't believe in airways.
> This is still true in the G1000.

<you knew this was coming> The GNS480 has airways.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> That's why I find very annoying about Garmin, you still need to carry a
> full set of charts. The 530 only gives you references to fixes, not
> altitudes. Also, if you get assigned an airway inroute, be ready to
> grab that old enroute chart, Garmin doesn't believe in airways.
> This is still true in the G1000.
>
There is no navigator out there today that eliminates the need for charts.