Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for sure.

So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
what is the reason for the change in destination??"

From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The traffic
was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that. When
over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
Wondering what might have caused the query.

Bill J > wrote:
> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> to change destination.

Good move. The combination of convective activity, deteriorating
weather, and an unsure fuel situation is not fun. But you knew that :-)

> I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> what is the reason for the change in destination??

It's bizarre that he should even ask this, but don't let it get to you.
The only thing I can think of is he suspects you're in some kind of
trouble and is trying to figure out if he should handle you as an
emergency. Tell him something that'll make him happy, and get on with
flying the airplane. Tell him you're diverting due to weather. Declare
minimum fuel if you think it'll make a difference. If he's not taking
the hint, just tell him straight out what you need, "Request clearance
to Podunk Municipal and vectors to the ILS". If he's still not taking
the hint, request immediate clearance.

> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem.

OK, so you caused him a problem. Bummer. He can go home after his
shift and bitch at his wife about the bad day he had at the office. Not
your problem. Your problem is to get some more fuel, and unless you're
flying something a lot fancier than most of us, that means landing at an
airport.

Bill J wrote:
> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for
> sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> what is the reason for the change in destination??"

And you answer "Because."



>
> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem.

No problem, just unexpected.

Never parse a controller's transmissions in an attempt to analyze his or her
intentions. I don't know how you phrased your transmission regarding the
change in destination, but my guess is that it did not contain enough
information. Controllers have to abide by phraseology in the Air Traffic
Control Handbook...pilots have no similar guidance. Say what you have to say
and say it clearly, and I'll bet this never happens again.

Bob Gardner

"Bill J" > wrote in message
...
> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for
sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> what is the reason for the change in destination??"
>
> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The traffic
> was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that. When
> over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
> Wondering what might have caused the query.
>

Bill J > wrote in
:

> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles
> futher west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have
> to reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home
> for sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I
> wanted to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I
> was needing to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5
> miles out, and way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me
> with "I need to know what is the reason for the change in
> destination??"
>
> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The
> traffic
> was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that.
> When over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
> Wondering what might have caused the query.
>

I suspect you were too close to the airport for vectoring or there might
have been a traffic conflict. On my initial request to the controller, I
would have said "request landing at XYZ due to weather".

I've had this happen to me a couple of times over the last couple of
months - the
controller querying me as to why a change in destination. I'm wondering if
there
is a new requirement placed on the controllers because of "security". Any
controllers
here that would care to comment?


"Bill J" > wrote in message
...
> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for
sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> what is the reason for the change in destination??"
>
> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The traffic
> was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that. When
> over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
> Wondering what might have caused the query.
>

Nothing new in the ATCH.

Bob Gardner

"nobody" > wrote in message
om...
> I've had this happen to me a couple of times over the last couple of
> months - the
> controller querying me as to why a change in destination. I'm wondering
if
> there
> is a new requirement placed on the controllers because of "security". Any
> controllers
> here that would care to comment?
>
>
> "Bill J" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> > area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> > west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> > reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for
> sure.
> >
> > So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> > When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> > to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> > to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> > way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> > what is the reason for the change in destination??"
> >
> > From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The traffic
> > was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that. When
> > over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
> > Wondering what might have caused the query.
> >
>
>

"nobody" > wrote in message
om...
> I've had this happen to me a couple of times over the last couple of
> months - the
> controller querying me as to why a change in destination. I'm wondering
if
> there
> is a new requirement placed on the controllers because of "security". Any
> controllers
> here that would care to comment?

I've had it happen on every IFR flight on which I've changed destination
during flight since 9/11. That's about six times. (headwinds, kids bathroom
break, weather.) One controller told me it is a security requirement.

Michael

A search of the ATCH for "destination" returns 72 hits. None of them has
anything to do with a civil pilot's request for a change of destination
(there is some guidance for military flights). Maybe Steve or Newps knows of
some other source of guidance for controllers that supplements/overrides the
ATCH.

Bob Gardner

"Michael 182" > wrote in message
news:pdvYc.252$_g7.162@attbi_s52...
>
> "nobody" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I've had this happen to me a couple of times over the last couple of
> > months - the
> > controller querying me as to why a change in destination. I'm wondering
> if
> > there
> > is a new requirement placed on the controllers because of "security".
Any
> > controllers
> > here that would care to comment?
>
> I've had it happen on every IFR flight on which I've changed destination
> during flight since 9/11. That's about six times. (headwinds, kids
bathroom
> break, weather.) One controller told me it is a security requirement.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

Bill,
Standard question. I have changed my destination several times on IFR
flight plans and have always been asked. The concern usually seems to be
they want to know if I need assistance. They were concerned an
urgent/emergency situation is developing. A simple reply "weather" would
surfice.

Once I had and "Emergency" in IFR. I lost my alternator in IMC over West
Virginia. I relayed this info to the controller and everyone on the
frequency starting telling me a specific airport to go to. This airport
happened to be close to my route and ahead. I requested a new
destination and was granted. Within 10 minutes the frequency was very
quiet. So quiet I became concerned I had lost my comm radio. I called
the controller and he re-assured me he was still there and that he had
passed off everyone else to another controller and frequency. I landed
safely. Another time I merely had to pee so bad I had a hard time
thinking strait. :-} The controller got a good laugh from that one.
Michelle

Bill J wrote:

> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles
> futher west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have
> to reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home
> for sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I
> wanted to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I
> was needing to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5
> miles out, and way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me
> with "I need to know what is the reason for the change in destination??"
>
> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The
> traffic was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like
> that. When over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and
> landed. Wondering what might have caused the query.
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

In article <pdvYc.252$_g7.162@attbi_s52>,
Michael 182 > wrote:
>
>I've had it happen on every IFR flight on which I've changed destination
>during flight since 9/11.

I've done it with flight following and most recently (yesterday) IFR.
None of the controllers have asked why. Good thing too -- yesterday
the answer would have been "filed to the wrong airport". I sort of lost
control of the briefer I talked to.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

I am struck by how often controllers "tone of voice" communicates
something more than he says. In this case, I would have just told him.
"Due to detereorating weather at my destination". One reason it throws
us pilots for a loop, is we don't expect it. One other thing,
controllers are sometimes required to tell the pilot the "reason" for
the deviation etc, so maybe its turnaround is fair play. Who knows
really. Just communicate what you want to do and work it out and don't
worry if he gets perterbed. He's paid ot be perterbed.

Bill J > wrote in message >...
> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> what is the reason for the change in destination??"
>
> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The traffic
> was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that. When
> over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
> Wondering what might have caused the query.

Bob Gardner wrote:
> Never parse a controller's transmissions in an attempt to analyze his or her
> intentions.

Thank you, Bob. If this newsgroup had a FAQ, this would be on it.

Dave

I'm guessing in some areas there may be a security issue
with changes in destination that prompt some questions
on their part.


"Bill J" > wrote in message
...
> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for
sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> what is the reason for the change in destination??"
>
> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The traffic
> was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that. When
> over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
> Wondering what might have caused the query.
>

Bill J wrote:

> Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for
> sure.
>
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> what is the reason for the change in destination??"
>
> From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The traffic
> was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that. When
> over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
> Wondering what might have caused the query.
>

I don't know what problem your request caused him, but why didn't you
just tell him why and ask why he asked why? :-)


Matt

Bob Gardner wrote:

> Never parse a controller's transmissions in an attempt to analyze his or her
> intentions. I don't know how you phrased your transmission regarding the
> change in destination, but my guess is that it did not contain enough
> information. Controllers have to abide by phraseology in the Air Traffic
> Control Handbook...pilots have no similar guidance. Say what you have to say
> and say it clearly, and I'll bet this never happens again.

Good point. Typically, when I ask for a deviation I include the reason
in the transmission. It takes very little time to say "request vectors
to Podunk Municipal due to weather along route." In the case stated
here, I'd have thought the controller would have guessed the reason, but
maybe he wasn't aware of the weather ahead.

I was flying from ILM to ELM a few years ago. There was a squall line
moving across Virginia and just abeam Richmond it started getting very
dark ahead and the Strikefinder was lighting up like a Christmas tree.
I was about ready to call the controller when he came on and said I had
a line of severe thunderstorms ahead that was causing airline traffic to
divert and inquired as to my intentions. I asked him where the airline
guys were diverting. He said Richmond. I said "I'll take it." He then
gave me a vector to get me headed the right direction. Nothing nicer
than an on the ball controller when things start to turn sour.

It was almost as if he was reading my mind when he called me just as I
was about to key the mic.

Matt

Michelle P wrote:

> Bill,
> Standard question. I have changed my destination several times on IFR
> flight plans and have always been asked. The concern usually seems to be
> they want to know if I need assistance. They were concerned an
> urgent/emergency situation is developing. A simple reply "weather" would
> surfice.
>
> Once I had and "Emergency" in IFR. I lost my alternator in IMC over West
> Virginia. I relayed this info to the controller and everyone on the
> frequency starting telling me a specific airport to go to. This airport
> happened to be close to my route and ahead. I requested a new
> destination and was granted. Within 10 minutes the frequency was very
> quiet. So quiet I became concerned I had lost my comm radio. I called
> the controller and he re-assured me he was still there and that he had
> passed off everyone else to another controller and frequency. I landed
> safely. Another time I merely had to pee so bad I had a hard time
> thinking strait. :-} The controller got a good laugh from that one.
> Michelle

You do know that you aren't required to tell the controller EVERY
detail! :-) So, did you make it? :-)


Matt

Matt Whiting > wrote:
> I asked him where the airline guys were diverting. He said Richmond.
> I said "I'll take it."

I don't mean to second guess your decision, but it occurs to me that
going where the airline guys are going may not always be the best pick.
They're looking for an ILS leading to 6000 feet of concrete, and
possibly other criteria driven by business and/or opspec issues. A spam
can may find a 2500 foot runway that's 30 miles closer and still VFR a
better alternative.

That's about as effective as a security requirement that makes ticket
agents ask you if you packed a bomb in your suitcase...



"Michael 182" > wrote in
news:pdvYc.252$_g7.162@attbi_s52:

>
> "nobody" > wrote in message
> om...
>> I've had this happen to me a couple of times over the last couple of
>> months - the
>> controller querying me as to why a change in destination. I'm
>> wondering if there is a new requirement placed on the controllers
>> because of "security". Any controllers here that would care to
>> comment?
>
> I've had it happen on every IFR flight on which I've changed
> destination during flight since 9/11. That's about six times.
> (headwinds, kids bathroom break, weather.) One controller told me it is
> a security requirement.
>
> Michael
>
>
>

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> That's about as effective as a security requirement that makes ticket
> agents ask you if you packed a bomb in your suitcase...


No argument here...

Michael

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> It's bizarre that he should even ask this, but don't let it get to you.
> The only thing I can think of is he suspects you're in some kind of
> trouble and is trying to figure out if he should handle you as an
> emergency. Tell him something that'll make him happy, and get on with
> flying the airplane. Tell him you're diverting due to weather. Declare
> minimum fuel if you think it'll make a difference. If he's not taking
> the hint, just tell him straight out what you need, "Request clearance
> to Podunk Municipal and vectors to the ILS". If he's still not taking
> the hint, request immediate clearance.
>

I wouldn't tell him anything that isn't true. A few years ago a light twin
being vectored for sequencing at ORD declared minimum fuel and was given
priority handling, several aircraft were vectored out of his way. He was on
the ground briefly and departed again. Some supervisor type thought it a
little too briefly and phoned the FBO to see if he bought fuel. He hadn't.
As I recall, he said he declared minimum fuel because if he didn't land at
ORD soon he wouldn't be able to reach his next destination without buying
fuel. I don't know how it all shook out but he definitely abused the
system.

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
>
> Never parse a controller's transmissions in an attempt to analyze his or
> her
> intentions. I don't know how you phrased your transmission regarding the
> change in destination, but my guess is that it did not contain enough
> information.
>

He wanted to change his destination. He conveys that to the controller by
saying, "I'd like to change my destination to (insert airport here)", and,
if necessary, "via (insert route here)." That's all the information needed.

"nobody" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I've had this happen to me a couple of times over the last couple
> of months - the controller querying me as to why a change in
> destination. I'm wondering if there is a new requirement placed
> on the controllers because of "security". Any controllers here
> that would care to comment?
>

There's no new requirement.

"Michelle P" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> Standard question. I have changed my destination several times on IFR
> flight plans and have always been asked.
>

Regardless how many times you've been asked, it's not a standard question.

In article et>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Roy Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > It's bizarre that he should even ask this, but don't let it get to you.
> > The only thing I can think of is he suspects you're in some kind of
> > trouble and is trying to figure out if he should handle you as an
> > emergency. Tell him something that'll make him happy, and get on with
> > flying the airplane. Tell him you're diverting due to weather. Declare
> > minimum fuel if you think it'll make a difference. If he's not taking
> > the hint, just tell him straight out what you need, "Request clearance
> > to Podunk Municipal and vectors to the ILS". If he's still not taking
> > the hint, request immediate clearance.
> >
>
> I wouldn't tell him anything that isn't true.

Neither would I, but the OP said "I realized I might have to reverse
course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for sure."

It may not quite fit the AIM definition of "Minimum Fuel", but anytime
you can say "escape" and "not have enough fuel" in the same sentence,
that sounds close enough to me.

Roy Smith wrote:

> Matt Whiting > wrote:
>
>>I asked him where the airline guys were diverting. He said Richmond.
>>I said "I'll take it."
>
>
> I don't mean to second guess your decision, but it occurs to me that
> going where the airline guys are going may not always be the best pick.
> They're looking for an ILS leading to 6000 feet of concrete, and
> possibly other criteria driven by business and/or opspec issues. A spam
> can may find a 2500 foot runway that's 30 miles closer and still VFR a
> better alternative.

Well, I knew roughly where I was and Richmond wasn't far away (I think
less than 30 miles, but I'd have to run a flight plan to know for sure)
and it was almost directly opposite the incoming storms. Also, I wanted
a restaurant for me and my colleagues to eat in while waiting out the
storm as it was approaching supper time. There might have been a
slightly closer airport, but I was in in solid IMC at the time, it was
getting dark fast and the Strikefinder was talking to me. A decent
sized airport with large runways and an ILS was rather appealing all
things considered!

We had the airplane tied down and just got inside when the rain began.
We got to the restaurant before the hail started. I was afraid of
damage to the airplane, but fortunately it came through fine. After two
hours in the reasonably nice restaurant at Richmond, we completed an
uneventful night flight back to ELM.

We talked earlier about delegating tasks to ATC in certain situations.
For me this was an obvious one. ATC had a bigger picture view than I
did of where the nasty weather was and where it wasn't. It was obvious
that this line of storms was forming up much faster and more intensely
than the forecast I'd received a couple hours earlier before departing
Wilmington. I was in IMC and it was getting dark fast ahead. This is a
case where it seemed to me prudent to delegate a little bit to ATC.
Also, I took advantage of CRM! The CRM of the airliners who had two
pilots to figure out where best to divert! :-)

The diversion to Richmond got me headed away from the storm, got me into
a well equipped airport, and let me watch the excitement from the safety
of a decent restaurant over a steak dinner courtesy of my expense
account! The storm was magnificent to watch. It doesn't get any better
than that!


Matt

Matt,
I made it but barely. I would have never made it to my final
destination. I was trying to figure out how I could relieve myself
without stopping but I do not have the right plumbing and I did not have
the hardware.

Michelle

Matt Whiting wrote:

> Michelle P wrote:
>
>> Bill,
>> Standard question. I have changed my destination several times on IFR
>> flight plans and have always been asked. The concern usually seems to
>> be they want to know if I need assistance. They were concerned an
>> urgent/emergency situation is developing. A simple reply "weather"
>> would surfice.
>>
>> Once I had and "Emergency" in IFR. I lost my alternator in IMC over
>> West Virginia. I relayed this info to the controller and everyone on
>> the frequency starting telling me a specific airport to go to. This
>> airport happened to be close to my route and ahead. I requested a new
>> destination and was granted. Within 10 minutes the frequency was very
>> quiet. So quiet I became concerned I had lost my comm radio. I called
>> the controller and he re-assured me he was still there and that he
>> had passed off everyone else to another controller and frequency. I
>> landed safely. Another time I merely had to pee so bad I had a hard
>> time thinking strait. :-} The controller got a good laugh from that one.
>> Michelle
>
>
> You do know that you aren't required to tell the controller EVERY
> detail! :-) So, did you make it? :-)
>
>
> Matt
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

I agree with everything except "ask why he asked why." Frequency time and
controller attention time is too valuable to be taken up with dialogue.

Bob Gardner

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Bill J wrote:
>
> > Yesterday I was on an IFR flight about 50 miles from destination. The
> > area was getting covered with TS, including my alternate 20 miles futher
> > west. Home base was 150 mi to the east. I realized I might have to
> > reverse course to escape, but did not have enough fuel to get home for
> > sure.
> >
> > So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> > When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> > to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> > to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> > way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> > what is the reason for the change in destination??"
> >
> > From the tone of voice I could tell I caused him a problem. The traffic
> > was not heavy. I have never had anyone question a change like that. When
> > over the airport VMC opened up briefly, I cancelled and landed.
> > Wondering what might have caused the query.
> >
>
> I don't know what problem your request caused him, but why didn't you
> just tell him why and ask why he asked why? :-)
>
>
> Matt
>

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> I agree with everything except "ask why he asked why." Frequency time and
> controller attention time is too valuable to be taken up with dialogue.
>
> Bob Gardner

Well, depending on the situation. I fly around the West a lot, and sometimes
there are long enough gaps between calls that I can listen to a whole side
of Stevie Ray. And, at least where I fly, the controllers initiate a lot of
the dialogue, often pointing out interesting planes and places to me such as
in-flight refuelings or the Winslow crater. You can usually tell if a
controller is open to "off-topic" questions.

Michael

Bob Gardner wrote:

> I agree with everything except "ask why he asked why." Frequency time and
> controller attention time is too valuable to be taken up with dialogue.

That all depends. I've flown on many a trip, even here in the
northeast, where it got quiet for so long that I called the controller
to be sure that my radio was still working. Sure, I wouldn't ask if
communications were hot and heavy, but that isn't the case all the time
unless you are talking to an approach or tower controller at a busy
filed. Centers are often pretty quiet, especially on a Sunday when it
is IMC across 6 states.


Matt

Steven,
It is a standard question where I fly. Many pilots do not want to admit
or do not have the time to admit they are having a problem. They ask so
they can be of assistance if necessary.
Michelle

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>"Michelle P" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
>
>>Standard question. I have changed my destination several times on IFR
>>flight plans and have always been asked.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Regardless how many times you've been asked, it's not a standard question.
>
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

Steven,
It is a standard question where I fly. Many pilots do not want to admit
or do not have the time to admit they are having a problem. They ask so
they can be of assistance if necessary.
Michelle

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>"Michelle P" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
>
>>Standard question. I have changed my destination several times on IFR
>>flight plans and have always been asked.
>>
>>
>>
>
>Regardless how many times you've been asked, it's not a standard question.
>
>
>
>

--

Michelle P ATP-ASEL, CP-AMEL, and AMT-A&P

"Elisabeth" a Maule M-7-235B (no two are alike)

Volunteer Pilot, Angel Flight Mid-Atlantic

Volunteer Builder, Habitat for Humanity

"Michelle P" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> It is a standard question where I fly. Many pilots do not want to admit
> or do not have the time to admit they are having a problem. They ask so
> they can be of assistance if necessary.
>

That which is standard is found in FAA Order 7110.65.

Bill J > wrote in message >...
> So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> what is the reason for the change in destination??"

First I'd just like to comment that you don't have to leave it
to 5 miles out. If wx is closing in and you want a vector to
the approach, ask for it all. Say "I need to divert to xxx due
to deteriorating weather, request immediate descent to yyy altitude
and vectors to final approach course for zz approach"

Of course, the ATC facility in question may not be able to give
you vectors.

Second just as another data point, we were flying from the St Louis
area to HOT last weekend, and overheard someone asking KC Center to
amend their destination to KC Downtown. The controller came back
with "we're required to put down a reason for any change", the pilot
responded "Downtown has better weather" and apparently that sufficed.

So now I'm wondering if there's some new security procedure where
ATC is required to play TSA Cop and regard pilot requests to change
destination as potential security breaches which must have a good
reason? (as if someone intent on harm can't equip himself with a
plausible-sounding good reason)

Any ATCS know?

Cheers,
Sydney

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> Bill J > wrote in message
>...
> > So, the last chance to land before the TS got heavy was coming close.
> > When about 15 miles from this new "alternate" I told controller I wanted
> > to change destination. I expect a vector to the final, and I was needing
> > to start descent. Nothing happened. Finally when maybe 5 miles out, and
> > way to close to get a vector, controller quizzed me with "I need to know
> > what is the reason for the change in destination??"
>
> First I'd just like to comment that you don't have to leave it
> to 5 miles out. If wx is closing in and you want a vector to
> the approach, ask for it all. Say "I need to divert to xxx due
> to deteriorating weather, request immediate descent to yyy altitude
> and vectors to final approach course for zz approach"
>
> Of course, the ATC facility in question may not be able to give
> you vectors.
>
> Second just as another data point, we were flying from the St Louis
> area to HOT last weekend, and overheard someone asking KC Center to
> amend their destination to KC Downtown. The controller came back
> with "we're required to put down a reason for any change", the pilot
> responded "Downtown has better weather" and apparently that sufficed.
>
> So now I'm wondering if there's some new security procedure where
> ATC is required to play TSA Cop and regard pilot requests to change
> destination as potential security breaches which must have a good
> reason? (as if someone intent on harm can't equip himself with a
> plausible-sounding good reason)
>
> Any ATCS know?

There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes of
destination.

Chip, ZTL

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes of
> destination.
>

Interesting. We have heard that now from two or three controllers. But we
have also heard from one pilot that he was explicitly told that the
controllers were required to ask for the reason for any change of
destination, and , well I haven't gone back through the thread to verify,
but my recollection is that several pilots have reported being queried about
the reason for a change recently, and that it represented a departure from
their prior experience.

I wonder if this is perhaps a local policy at certain ATC facilities? And
it it is, I wonder in response to what?

Stan

"Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>> There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes of
>> destination.
>>
>
> Interesting. We have heard that now from two or three controllers. But
> we
> have also heard from one pilot that he was explicitly told that the
> controllers were required to ask for the reason for any change of
> destination, and , well I haven't gone back through the thread to verify,
> but my recollection is that several pilots have reported being queried
> about
> the reason for a change recently, and that it represented a departure from
> their prior experience.
>
> I wonder if this is perhaps a local policy at certain ATC facilities? And
> it it is, I wonder in response to what?

Might it not be as simple as controllers looking help pilots. It is the most
obvious reason. It is their job after all.

cb

"CB" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Interesting. We have heard that now from two or three controllers. But
>> we
>> have also heard from one pilot that he was explicitly told that the
>> controllers were required to ask for the reason for any change of
>> destination, and , well I haven't gone back through the thread to verify,
>> but my recollection is that several pilots have reported being queried
>> about
>> the reason for a change recently, and that it represented a departure
>> from
>> their prior experience.
>>
>> I wonder if this is perhaps a local policy at certain ATC facilities?
>> And
>> it it is, I wonder in response to what?
>>
>
> Might it not be as simple as controllers looking help pilots. It is the
> most obvious reason. It is their job after all.
>

Say again?

"CB" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Might it not be as simple as controllers looking help pilots. It is the
most
> obvious reason.

That would be a good reason for an individual controller asking a question
in a helpful vein. But that would not be institutionalized into controllers
being required to ask, as has been reported.

Stan

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message et>...
> "Snowbird" > wrote in message
> om...

> > Second just as another data point, we were flying from the St Louis
> > area to HOT last weekend, and overheard someone asking KC Center to
> > amend their destination to KC Downtown. The controller came back
> > with "we're required to put down a reason for any change", the pilot
> > responded "Downtown has better weather" and apparently that sufficed.

> There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes of
> destination.

Hmmm, I guess that begs the question then: has there always been a
requirement to note a reason for a change in destination?

If not, any ideas at all what the ZKC guy was talking about? Could
it be some facility-specific procedure?

Cheers,
Sydney

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
et>...
[snipped]
>
> > There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes of
> > destination.
>
> Hmmm, I guess that begs the question then: has there always been a
> requirement to note a reason for a change in destination?

Nope.

>
> If not, any ideas at all what the ZKC guy was talking about? Could
> it be some facility-specific procedure?
>

Could be, but why such a procedure would exist is beyond me. My guess is
either individual controller misunderstanding of national security
procedures, or else some over-reaching, non-standard local facility or
regional management CYA policy.

Chip, ZTL

Stan Prevost wrote:
> "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes of
>>destination.
>>
>
>
> Interesting. We have heard that now from two or three controllers. But we
> have also heard from one pilot that he was explicitly told that the
> controllers were required to ask for the reason for any change of
> destination,

Sounds like a supervisor inventing new rules.

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Stan Prevost wrote:
> > "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> >
> >>There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes of
> >>destination.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Interesting. We have heard that now from two or three controllers. But
we
> > have also heard from one pilot that he was explicitly told that the
> > controllers were required to ask for the reason for any change of
> > destination,
>
> Sounds like a supervisor inventing new rules.
>

Or some self-importanat Regional Manager....

Chip, ZTL

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Stan Prevost wrote:
> > > "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
> > > ink.net...
> > >
> > >>There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes of
> > >>destination.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > Interesting. We have heard that now from two or three controllers.
But
> we
> > > have also heard from one pilot that he was explicitly told that the
> > > controllers were required to ask for the reason for any change of
> > > destination,
> >
> > Sounds like a supervisor inventing new rules.
> >
>
> Or some self-importanat Regional Manager....
>

Sounds like you may have someone in mind. :-)

"Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Newps" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > Stan Prevost wrote:
> > > > "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
> > > > ink.net...
> > > >
> > > >>There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes
of
> > > >>destination.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Interesting. We have heard that now from two or three controllers.
> But
> > we
> > > > have also heard from one pilot that he was explicitly told that the
> > > > controllers were required to ask for the reason for any change of
> > > > destination,
> > >
> > > Sounds like a supervisor inventing new rules.
> > >
> >
> > Or some self-importanat Regional Manager....
> >
>
> Sounds like you may have someone in mind. :-)
>
>

I have them *all* in mind. :-) From Miss Management herself all the way
down the chain to local facility leadership, our Agency is suffering from
****-poor leadership. In all echelons above the first level supervisor, our
captains don't have the first idea what FAA air traffic control actually
does, nor why. Think of the most incompetent controller you have ever
encountered on the radio, and realize that it is only a matter of time
before they get promoted into management.

Chip, ZTL

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
>> ink.net...
>> >
>> > "Newps" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Stan Prevost wrote:
>> > > > "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
>> > > > ink.net...
>> > > >
>> > > >>There are no new security procedures with regards to GA IFR changes
> of
>> > > >>destination.
>> > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Interesting. We have heard that now from two or three controllers.
>> But
>> > we
>> > > > have also heard from one pilot that he was explicitly told that the
>> > > > controllers were required to ask for the reason for any change of
>> > > > destination,
>> > >
>> > > Sounds like a supervisor inventing new rules.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Or some self-importanat Regional Manager....
>> >
>>
>> Sounds like you may have someone in mind. :-)
>>
>>
>
> I have them *all* in mind. :-) From Miss Management herself all the way
> down the chain to local facility leadership, our Agency is suffering from
> ****-poor leadership. In all echelons above the first level supervisor,
> our
> captains don't have the first idea what FAA air traffic control actually
> does, nor why. Think of the most incompetent controller you have ever
> encountered on the radio, and realize that it is only a matter of time
> before they get promoted into management.
>

Seems Ok to me. We want the best controllers to stay on the radio. Let the
crap ones go into management then we pilots don't have to worry about then.
All they need to do is to introduce a system where controllers don't have to
go into management to progress in salary etc.

Have good managers manage and good controller control. If we cannot have
that then the next best thing is to have good controllers controlling.

whatever the worst controllers have got to go. I will settle for them going
to management if it means that they don't try and be controllers.

Since this topic came up I've had a couple a/c ask for a change in
destination. Based on the comments here, I asked my supervisor
what is the "official" position on this, of course I got no clear
answer except "ask him the reason". If I sense any stress in the
pilots voice I may ask if he needs any help or if everything is
okay. But this one last night, I asked my supe what words
exactly did he want me to use to ask this guy about the change.
The answer was "state reason for change in destination", which
I found pretty harsh.

Echoing others comments about controllers vs. management, I look
at it like an outhouse - and management are the "floaters" at the top
of the "soup", or put another way, the solid stuff at the top of the
pile. Get it? Not a resounding voice of confidence.

We DO want the best controllers to be on the radio, but these others
who make policy usually were horrid controllers who now make
more $ than us grunts, in a job description which is still an ATCS,
but not doing the ATCS job. Fraud, waste, and abuse at its finest.
These are not trained managers, they are failed controllers in nearly
every case I've seen. They are not doing the job they were hired
on to do, and should be paid, or not paid, accordingly. It's the
one part of this job, probably the only part, I do not like.

Chris
--
Steve Bosell for President 2004
"Vote for me or I'll sue you"
www.philhendrieshow.com

"CB" > wrote in message
...
>
> whatever the worst controllers have got to go.

Where will they go?


>
> I will settle for them going to management if it means that they don't try
> and be controllers.

Well, poor controllers make poor managers and managers make policy.

Stan Prevost wrote:

>>>Sounds like a supervisor inventing new rules.
>>>
>>
>>Or some self-importanat Regional Manager....
>>
>
>
> Sounds like you may have someone in mind. :-)

We all know someone who would qualify.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "CB" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>whatever the worst controllers have got to go.
>
>
> Where will they go?
>
>
>
>>I will settle for them going to management if it means that they don't try
>>and be controllers.
>
>
> Well, poor controllers make poor managers and managers make policy.
>
>

Do good controllers make good managers? I know that good engineers
often don't make good engineering managers.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> Do good controllers make good managers? I know that good engineers often
> don't make good engineering managers.
>

But do poor engineers make good engineering managers?

In my experience, every good manager had been a good controller and I've
never known a poor controller to make a good manager. But that's a small
sample.

In article . net>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Do good controllers make good managers? I know that good engineers often
> > don't make good engineering managers.
> >
>
> But do poor engineers make good engineering managers?
>
> In my experience, every good manager had been a good controller and I've
> never known a poor controller to make a good manager. But that's a small
> sample.

One thing I've noticed about technical management is that the evaluation
of whether somebody is a good manager is very subjective. If you ask
the people being managed, "is your boss a good manager", you might get a
very different answer than if you ask the people several layers up in
the food chain.

I recently read the book "Good To Great" (ostensibly a book about how to
invest in the stock market) and came upon an interesting statement in
there. The author claims that any organization can overcome the
occasional bad manager, but is doomed to failure when it gets two
adjacent layers of bad managers.

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> One thing I've noticed about technical management is that the evaluation
> of whether somebody is a good manager is very subjective. If you ask
> the people being managed, "is your boss a good manager", you might get a
> very different answer than if you ask the people several layers up in
> the food chain.
>

No doubt. The manager would have been selected for his position by the
people above. Saying he's a poor manager would be saying they made a poor
choice.

Matt Whiting wrote:

> Do good controllers make good managers? I know that good engineers
> often don't make good engineering managers.

Bad controllers can make good managers. Some people are just not cut
out to control. Had a guy who transferred in here as a supervisor. He
got thru ground control but was pencil whipped thru tower and radar.
Was the temporary manager for about 6 months and was pretty good at it.
Eventually transferred out and went to Boise as a controller. Made it
thru ground control training but never had a chance as a tower
controller, his brain isn't wired to work that way. Stayed at Boise
awhile as a QATS and then became manager at Helena, MT tower, where they
loved him. Is now at TIW as the manager. What you don't want is the
gung ho type bad controller. Those make terrrible management.

Matt Whiting > wrote
> Do good controllers make good managers? I know that good engineers
> often don't make good engineering managers.

True, but bad engineers invariably make bad engineering managers.

It's sort of like the pilot/instructor thing. A good pilot can be a
poor flight instructor, but a bad pilot is always a flight instructor.

You can't manage it (or teach it) if you can't do it.

Michael

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
> > Do good controllers make good managers? I know that good engineers
> > often don't make good engineering managers.
>
> Bad controllers can make good managers. Some people are just not cut
> out to control. Had a guy who transferred in here as a supervisor. He
> got thru ground control but was pencil whipped thru tower and radar.
> Was the temporary manager for about 6 months and was pretty good at it.
> Eventually transferred out and went to Boise as a controller. Made it
> thru ground control training but never had a chance as a tower
> controller, his brain isn't wired to work that way. Stayed at Boise
> awhile as a QATS and then became manager at Helena, MT tower, where they
> loved him. Is now at TIW as the manager. What you don't want is the
> gung ho type bad controller. Those make terrrible management.

In a big radar facility like an ARTCC, the last thing you want is for an
incompetent controller to become a QATS person. Sadly, at my facility our
QA (quality assurance) people haven't worked traffic since they ran from the
control room floor 12 years ago. They can't even keep up with procedural
changes, and they are *permanent* AT staff. No wonder my ARTCC is leading
the nation this year in Deals.

I represented a controller who had misapplied enroute visual separation
between a plane at 17,000 and another at FL180 during a vertical control
maneuver. I had to freaking *argue* with the QA specialist that enroute
visual separation was legal above 10,000 and my guy had simply had a brain
fart during the Error. She was so out of touch I thought I was talking air
traffic control procedures to a janitor...

Chip, ZTL

I don't think that this is true in all pursuits. I was arguing
the other day with a friend of mine who was complaining that
his choir director was a lousy singer -- and therefore could not
be a good vocal conductor.

I pointed out that the maestro of the orchestra doesn't need to
be able to play all of the instruments to be a good conductor.

Regards,
-Nick

Michael wrote:
>
> Matt Whiting > wrote
> > Do good controllers make good managers? I know that good engineers
> > often don't make good engineering managers.
>
> True, but bad engineers invariably make bad engineering managers.
>
> It's sort of like the pilot/instructor thing. A good pilot can be a
> poor flight instructor, but a bad pilot is always a flight instructor.
>
> You can't manage it (or teach it) if you can't do it.
>
> Michael

"Nicholas Kliewer" > wrote in message
...
> I don't think that this is true in all pursuits. I was arguing
> the other day with a friend of mine who was complaining that
> his choir director was a lousy singer -- and therefore could not
> be a good vocal conductor.
>
> I pointed out that the maestro of the orchestra doesn't need to
> be able to play all of the instruments to be a good conductor.
>

But it helps if he can read the music... :-)

Chip, ZTL

"Chip Jones" > wrote
> > I pointed out that the maestro of the orchestra doesn't need to
> > be able to play all of the instruments to be a good conductor.
>
> But it helps if he can read the music... :-)

And he really needs to have played at least one instrument reasonably
well. The stereo doesn't count.

Michael

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...
>
> And he really needs to have played at least one instrument reasonably
> well. The stereo doesn't count.
>

Why not? It's got every instrument in it.

"Chip Jones" > wrote in message et>...

> Could be, but why such a procedure would exist is beyond me. My guess is
> either individual controller misunderstanding of national security
> procedures, or else some over-reaching, non-standard local facility or
> regional management CYA policy.

Well, I think we can rule out "individual controller misunderstanding".

Sat. am we were flying VFR with FF and heard a ZKC controller say
very distinctly to another plane "we're required to send the reason
for any change in destination under IFR to the front desk, say
your reason?"

Cheers,
Sydney

Snowbird wrote:

>
>
> Well, I think we can rule out "individual controller misunderstanding".
>
> Sat. am we were flying VFR with FF and heard a ZKC controller say
> very distinctly to another plane "we're required to send the reason
> for any change in destination under IFR to the front desk, say
> your reason?"

The "front desk"? They running a motel there in Kansas City?

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
> "Chip Jones" > wrote in message
et>...
>
> > Could be, but why such a procedure would exist is beyond me. My guess
is
> > either individual controller misunderstanding of national security
> > procedures, or else some over-reaching, non-standard local facility or
> > regional management CYA policy.
>
> Well, I think we can rule out "individual controller misunderstanding".
>
> Sat. am we were flying VFR with FF and heard a ZKC controller say
> very distinctly to another plane "we're required to send the reason
> for any change in destination under IFR to the front desk, say
> your reason?"

That's a hoot! Yet another example IMO of things run amok...

Chip, ZTL

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Do good controllers make good managers? I know that good engineers often
>>don't make good engineering managers.
>>
>
>
> But do poor engineers make good engineering managers?
>
> In my experience, every good manager had been a good controller and I've
> never known a poor controller to make a good manager. But that's a small
> sample.
>
>

I wouldn't say that a bad enginer necessarily makes a good manager, but
most good engineering managers weren't top 10% engineers. I'd say that
are in the above average category, however. Often the top 10% engineers
just can't step back from the details and let others do the work as they
always feel, may rightfully, that they can do it better. Being a good
manager means letting others do the work even if you can do it better.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message =
...
>=20
> I wouldn't say that a bad enginer necessarily makes a good manager, =
but=20
> most good engineering managers weren't top 10% engineers. I'd say =
that=20
> are in the above average category, however. Often the top 10% =
engineers=20
> just can't step back from the details and let others do the work as =
they=20
> always feel, may rightfully, that they can do it better. Being a good =

> manager means letting others do the work even if you can do it better.
>=20
> Matt
>

Matt, you understand an important point.
I used to promise my engineers I wouldn't ask them to do anything
that I couldn't do.
But I also told them I expected them to be more efficient than I could =
be
at doing those tasks, because my skills were rusty.
Our teams were very successful.
---JRC---

John R. Copeland wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message ...
>
>>I wouldn't say that a bad enginer necessarily makes a good manager, but
>>most good engineering managers weren't top 10% engineers. I'd say that
>>are in the above average category, however. Often the top 10% engineers
>>just can't step back from the details and let others do the work as they
>>always feel, may rightfully, that they can do it better. Being a good
>>manager means letting others do the work even if you can do it better.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>
>
> Matt, you understand an important point.
> I used to promise my engineers I wouldn't ask them to do anything
> that I couldn't do.
> But I also told them I expected them to be more efficient than I could be
> at doing those tasks, because my skills were rusty.
> Our teams were very successful.
> ---JRC---
>

Well, I use "wouldn't" where you use "couldn't" above. :-)

Seriously, I was a pretty good engineer when I was working on the front
lines, but I now consider my job as a manager to be hiring people who
are better than me. If I could do anything that any of the 32 people
who work for me can do, then I don't have a very capable group...


Matt