OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
this?

"smackey" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
> 252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
> there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
> the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
> approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
> to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
> than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
> do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
> flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
> this?

A barbed procedure turn gives you the flexibility to do as you please in
terms of performing the course reversal. You are only required to make the
turn on the side of the approach course as depicted, and remain within the
specified distance from the fix--usually 10nm. That said, you can
compensate for crosswinds by adjusting your procedure turn heading and time.
If you are turning into the wind on the PT, extend the leg. A gps ground
track is handy for helping to make these decisions.

(smackey) wrote:
> OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
> 252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
> there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
> the 252 outbound course.

That's a heck of a cross-wind correction: 37 degrees. Are you really
sure it took that much? If you're doing 90 KTAS, 37 degrees would imply
a 54 kt crosswind component, which seems unlikely.

> I assume I turn to something not quite
> approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
> to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
> than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
> do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
> flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
> this?

In a really strong crosswind, a lot of the geometry of the PT gets blown
out of whack. For example, with the 37 degree WCA above, your outbound
speed is only 72 kts, so your 1-minute outbound leg doesn't get you as
far out as you normally would be. If you added in another 45 degrees,
you'd be heading 82 degrees away from the FAC and only making 12 kts
outbound (assuming a direct crosswind). Clearly this makes no sense.

What I would do in a situation like that is go for positive course
guidance on the outbound leg. Assuming the IAF/FAF is the VOR (like the
POU VOR-A,
http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00286VGA.PDF), instead
of dead-reckoning your way through the PT, reset the OBS and track a
course 30 degrees from the FAC on the protected side. Essentially
you're flying the PT as a teardrop hold entry. I would track outbound
for 3-4 minutes; this is longer than your usual PT, but you want to give
yourself a bit of extra time to get setup on the inbound course. If
you've got any way of measuring your distance from the VOR (DME, or even
a VFR GPS), use it.

On the inbound turn, don't be a slave to making standard-rate turns. If
the CDI is coming in way faster than you expected, speed up the turn.
The alternative is blowing through the FAC and if you do that in a
strong crosswind, you may never manage to claw your way back in time.

A moving map GPS makes this soooo much easier :-)

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:14:50 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:

>On the inbound turn, don't be a slave to making standard-rate turns. If
>the CDI is coming in way faster than you expected, speed up the turn.
>The alternative is blowing through the FAC and if you do that in a
>strong crosswind, you may never manage to claw your way back in time.


Yeah. Steep turns in the clouds is just what an inexperienced IFR
pilot needs.

I'll take going across the course anytime. There's no way a wind is
going to blow an aircraft so far across course that it will be a
serious problem.

In article >,
wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:14:50 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
> >On the inbound turn, don't be a slave to making standard-rate turns. If
> >the CDI is coming in way faster than you expected, speed up the turn.
> >The alternative is blowing through the FAC and if you do that in a
> >strong crosswind, you may never manage to claw your way back in time.
>
>
> Yeah. Steep turns in the clouds is just what an inexperienced IFR
> pilot needs.
>
> I'll take going across the course anytime. There's no way a wind is
> going to blow an aircraft so far across course that it will be a
> serious problem.

I wasn't suggesting 45 degree bank angles, but going to 1.5 standard
rate isn't going to hurt anybody.

Keep in mind that if your outbound heading is 60 degrees off the FAC to
the left and your inbound heading needs to be 30 degrees off in the
other direction, you're making 270 degrees of heading change, which
takes a minute and a half at standard rate.

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:28:11 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:

>I wasn't suggesting 45 degree bank angles, but going to 1.5 standard
>rate isn't going to hurt anybody.
>
>Keep in mind that if your outbound heading is 60 degrees off the FAC to
>the left and your inbound heading needs to be 30 degrees off in the
>other direction, you're making 270 degrees of heading change, which
>takes a minute and a half at standard rate.


Well, you didn't mention limits. But maybe 1.5 standard rate won't do
it either. Then what? Twice standard rate?

In my opinion, going across the course is vastly preferable to
steepening up a turn in the clouds, especially when you don't practice
it a lot, and most pilots don't.

On 22 Nov 2004 22:43:11 -0800, (smackey) wrote:

>It just seems weird to be
>flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course.

Keep in mind that the PT barb only tells you which side of the course
line to make the reversal and =only one= of a number of ways to do it.
It does not =regulate= the way you make your procedure turn.

For example, there are pilots who do 90/270 procedure turns or the
equivalent of a teardrop hold entry all the time, even in calm
conditions.

If you prefer the 45/180/45° method but the winds require major
adjustment, go a head and do what you need to make the reversal on the
protected side of the course line.

Mark Kolber
APA/Denver, Colorado
www.midlifeflight.com
======================
email? Remove ".no.spam"

wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:14:50 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>
>>On the inbound turn, don't be a slave to making standard-rate turns. If
>>the CDI is coming in way faster than you expected, speed up the turn.
>>The alternative is blowing through the FAC and if you do that in a
>>strong crosswind, you may never manage to claw your way back in time.
>
>
>
> Yeah. Steep turns in the clouds is just what an inexperienced IFR
> pilot needs.

At most light plane speeds, a standard rate turn requires a bank of a
fair bit less than 30 degrees. So even increasing bank to 30 degrees
makes a lot of difference and this is hardly a steep turn. Roy's advice
is sound and I often increase or decrease from standard rate as
required. Any pilot who can't fly a 30 degree bank in the clouds, has
no business being in the clouds without an instructor.


Matt

wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:28:11 -0500, Roy Smith > wrote:
>
>
>>I wasn't suggesting 45 degree bank angles, but going to 1.5 standard
>>rate isn't going to hurt anybody.
>>
>>Keep in mind that if your outbound heading is 60 degrees off the FAC to
>>the left and your inbound heading needs to be 30 degrees off in the
>>other direction, you're making 270 degrees of heading change, which
>>takes a minute and a half at standard rate.
>
>
>
> Well, you didn't mention limits. But maybe 1.5 standard rate won't do
> it either. Then what? Twice standard rate?

Whatever you are comfortable with. I have no problem going to 40
degrees in the clouds and routinely practice steep turns under the hood
every few months. I actually fly better steep turns under the hood than
I do visually. Go figure...


> In my opinion, going across the course is vastly preferable to
> steepening up a turn in the clouds, especially when you don't practice
> it a lot, and most pilots don't.

It depends on how steep. To me, it is very sloppy instrument flying to
blow across a course by half a mile because I'm afraid to increase bank
from 15 degrees to 30.


Matt

Keep in mind you can turn around any way you want as long
as you stay inside the 10 mile limit and on the barb side of
the course. Don't get too preocuppied with the exact headings
on the barb. If the wind was that high I think I'd just keep the left
turn going around keeping the nose into the wind until I got
back on the inbound course .. most likely with a heading around
85 to 90 degrees still into the wind.


"smackey" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
> 252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
> there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
> the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
> approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
> to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
> than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
> do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
> flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
> this?

Forget the 45-180 and do a 270-90 into the wind.

Bob Gardner

"smackey" > wrote in message
m...
> OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
> 252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
> there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
> the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
> approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
> to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
> than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
> do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
> flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
> this?

> Forget the 45-180 and do a 270-90 into the wind.

Even better, do a 90-0-270 into the wind, where the 0 (continue straight ahead) lasts for 30 seconds or so (depending on the wind you are countering).
This will make up for the drift during the turns. You'll be turning a total of 360 degrees to make a U turn this way, for a total of two minutes.
With (say) a 30 knot crosswind, you'd drift one mile in that time. At 90 knots, you could recover that in 45 seconds. At 120 it would take half a
minute.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

(smackey) wrote
> OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
> 252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But
> there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
> the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite
> approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
> to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer
> than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
> do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
> flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
> this?

I teach a procedure turn as a timed turn - 15 seconds at standard
rate. Here's why:

Procedure turns are rare. Most of the time, you get vectors to final.
Typically most of the procedures the average IFR pilot will do will
be in training (initial and recurrent), and much of that training
should be partial panel. Why not make it a procedure that is the
same, full or partial panel?

Your situation is another example - turning to the published heading
won't work, but turning 15 seconds at standard rate (approximately 45
degrees) will work fine.

Legally, you can do whatever course reversal you want as long as you
do it on the barb side. What you are describing will work fine.

Michael

(smackey) wrote in
m:

> OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
> 252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT.

No, that's on the plate only for information, to tell you what heading a 45
degree turn would require. You can fly any heading you like, and any time
you like, as long as you are on the PT side of the course and remain within
10 miles. You certainly want to compensate for crosswinds, and the easiest
way is to turn 45 degrees from the heading you were holding outbound. That's
not required, it's just a quick guess. Using the GPS to maintain a ground
track of 207 also works, if you have one. The only real requirements are to
make the turn on the barbed side, stay within 10 miles, and intercept the
final approach course without overshooting too badly.

--
Regards,

Stan

Y'Al.l,
Very much in agreement with Bob Gardner about 90/270 and not the FAA's
80/260. After a pilot has his rating I recommend forgetting all the
formalities of holding patterns and procedure turns and using only the
90/270 to the procedure side.

Regarding strong winds. The LDA into CCR CA is an interesting approach in
that it is right angles to the only ground level wind entry of the entire
California coastline through the Golden Gate.

The initial part of the approach has winds that require 30 to 40 degree wind
corrections but at the FAF the hills block most of the winds at a lower
altitude and often no wind correction is required.

The other day I flew with a retread pilot into Sacramento Executive where we
were tracking the VOR with a 30+ wind correction angle and made our base
entry to 30 with much the same angle. We literally slid sideways down to
the runway.

Gene Whitt

> Very much in agreement with Bob Gardner about 90/270 and not the FAA's
> 80/260.

What does the extra ten degrees provide you? (or is there something else in the article, which I haven't seen, that I'm missing?

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Thanks for all the feedback. It has been helpful. Yes, we do get
some good xwinds here; todays winds aloft here are projected at 49k at
9000, 35k at 6000.

Jose,
The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and remembering
where to turn.

The system is called the 'sum of the digits'

Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit.

Example #1 030 = 3
Example #2 290 = 11 = 2

The sum of the digits every 90-degrees all the way around the dial will
equal 3 or 2 in both cases. It works for every number on both
the 90-degree numbers and 45-degree numbers.
Example #1
030 = 3; 120 = 3; 210= 3; 300 = 3
Example #2
290 = 11 = 2; 020= 2; 110 = 2; 200= 2

Works all the time everytime.
Gene

"Gene Whitt" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Jose,
> The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and remembering
> where to turn.
>
> The system is called the 'sum of the digits'
>
> Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
> its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit.
>
> Example #1 030 = 3
> Example #2 290 = 11 = 2
>
> The sum of the digits every 90-degrees all the way around the dial will
> equal 3 or 2 in both cases. It works for every number on both
> the 90-degree numbers and 45-degree numbers.
> Example #1
> 030 = 3; 120 = 3; 210= 3; 300 = 3
> Example #2
> 290 = 11 = 2; 020= 2; 110 = 2; 200= 2

I'm not following you, Gene. I know that the sum of the digits trick is a
quick way to determine if something is divisible by three, but how does that
tell you the 90 and 270 degree headings?

>
> Works all the time everytime.
> Gene
>
>

> The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and remembering
> where to turn.
>
> The system is called the 'sum of the digits'
>
> Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
> its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit... (math snipped)


Cool piece of math (even more interesting =why= it works, and how it translates into other bases). However, to find my entry, I just look at the DG
and pick the number that's off to the side. I turn there, then turn opposite onto the course. No math needed. The ten degrees one way or another
doesn't make any difference.

Jose
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose > wrote in
. com:

>> The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and
>> remembering where to turn.
>>
>> The system is called the 'sum of the digits'
>>
>> Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
>> its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit... (math
>> snipped)
>
>
> Cool piece of math (even more interesting =why= it works, and how it
> translates into other bases). However, to find my entry, I just look
> at the DG and pick the number that's off to the side. I turn there,
> then turn opposite onto the course. No math needed. The ten degrees
> one way or another doesn't make any difference.
>
> Jose

Because you're adding 90 to the numbers each time, and our math system is
10-based. If you add 9 to any number in a 10 based system, you are adding
1 to the 10's digit, and subtracting 1 from the 1's digit. The result is
if yo uadd the new digits, they will equal out.

It's easier to see if you take a single digit number, add 9, and add the
digits... It will illustrate the same point.


1 + 9 = 10 1+0 = 1
2 + 9 = 11 1+1 = 2
3 + 9 = 12 1+2 = 3

In article >,
Judah > wrote:

> Jose > wrote in
> . com:
>
> >> The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and
> >> remembering where to turn.
> >>
> >> The system is called the 'sum of the digits'
> >>
> >> Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
> >> its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit... (math
> >> snipped)
> >
> >
> > Cool piece of math (even more interesting =why= it works, and how it
> > translates into other bases). However, to find my entry, I just look
> > at the DG and pick the number that's off to the side. I turn there,
> > then turn opposite onto the course. No math needed. The ten degrees
> > one way or another doesn't make any difference.
> >
> > Jose
>
> Because you're adding 90 to the numbers each time, and our math system is
> 10-based. If you add 9 to any number in a 10 based system, you are adding
> 1 to the 10's digit, and subtracting 1 from the 1's digit. The result is
> if yo uadd the new digits, they will equal out.
>
> It's easier to see if you take a single digit number, add 9, and add the
> digits... It will illustrate the same point.
>
>
> 1 + 9 = 10 1+0 = 1
> 2 + 9 = 11 1+1 = 2
> 3 + 9 = 12 1+2 = 3

I used to know enough math to be able to solve differential equations
(well, the easy ones anyway), but when I'm flying an airplane in the
clouds, I don't want to waste any of my limited and precious remaining
neurons on subtraction.

The way I make a 90 degree turn is:

1) Move the heading bug until it's pointing sideways.

2) Turn the plane until the heading bug is pointing upright again.

I absolutely agree... I was just answering the question of why the math
"trick" works.

In flight I can't think about Math - I have to concentrate on things like
remembering whether I am coming from the East or the West!

;)


Roy Smith > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Judah > wrote:
>
>> Jose > wrote in
>> . com:
>>
>> >> The 90/270 has a tremendous advantage when making turns and
>> >> remembering where to turn.
>> >>
>> >> The system is called the 'sum of the digits'
>> >>
>> >> Take any number of the heading indicator and add all three of
>> >> its digits and keep adding until you get a single digit... (math
>> >> snipped)
>> >
>> >
>> > Cool piece of math (even more interesting =why= it works, and how it
>> > translates into other bases). However, to find my entry, I just
>> > look at the DG and pick the number that's off to the side. I turn
>> > there, then turn opposite onto the course. No math needed. The ten
>> > degrees one way or another doesn't make any difference.
>> >
>> > Jose
>>
>> Because you're adding 90 to the numbers each time, and our math system
>> is 10-based. If you add 9 to any number in a 10 based system, you are
>> adding 1 to the 10's digit, and subtracting 1 from the 1's digit. The
>> result is if yo uadd the new digits, they will equal out.
>>
>> It's easier to see if you take a single digit number, add 9, and add
>> the digits... It will illustrate the same point.
>>
>>
>> 1 + 9 = 10 1+0 = 1
>> 2 + 9 = 11 1+1 = 2 3 + 9 = 12 1+2 = 3
>
> I used to know enough math to be able to solve differential equations
> (well, the easy ones anyway), but when I'm flying an airplane in the
> clouds, I don't want to waste any of my limited and precious remaining
> neurons on subtraction.
>
> The way I make a 90 degree turn is:
>
> 1) Move the heading bug until it's pointing sideways.
>
> 2) Turn the plane until the heading bug is pointing upright again.

In article >,
Judah > wrote:

> I absolutely agree... I was just answering the question of why the math
> "trick" works.
>
> In flight I can't think about Math - I have to concentrate on things like
> remembering whether I am coming from the East or the West!

Oh, that's easy. Fly at 4500 and call up ATC for flight following. If
he yells at you about your altitude, you know you're coming from the
West.

Roy Smith > wrote in
:

> In article >,
> Judah > wrote:
>
>> I absolutely agree... I was just answering the question of why the
>> math "trick" works.
>>
>> In flight I can't think about Math - I have to concentrate on things
>> like remembering whether I am coming from the East or the West!
>
> Oh, that's easy. Fly at 4500 and call up ATC for flight following. If
> he yells at you about your altitude, you know you're coming from the
> West.
>

Whenever I call up ATC and mistakenly tell him, "I am 10 miles West of HPN
at 4500", he always seems to get tense and tells me to ident..

Y'All,
Speaking of Math tricks. I often made my math tests for the 6-7-8 grades so
that the answers could easily be checked just by doing
the sum of the digits. Works for addition, subtraction, multiplication and
division. Find it in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Not perfect if numbers
in the answers are transposed but otherwise a quick check
when you have many papers to correct. More if you wish.
Gene Whitt

On 22 Nov 2004 22:43:11 -0800, (smackey) wrote:

>OK, I'm flying my local VOR-A which calls for an outbound heading of
>252, then I'm suppoosed to turn 45 deg to 207 to begin the PT. But

If it calls for a heading of 252 then I fly a heading of 252, but if
it's a course I'll add the necessary wind correction.

>there is a STRONG x-wind and I am already crabbed to about 215 to hold
>the 252 outbound course. I assume I turn to something not quite

I use "Kentucky windage". I'm flying here, I want to go there, the
wind is from about there and maybe something like what ATC said (give
or take 20), so I'll point about here and see what I get.

When I flew the PTS we had something on the order of a 30 to 40 knot
90 degree cross wind. I didn't use any math. The DE asked me what
I'd use for a correction angle. I told him as we had a hefty wind from
our right I'd put in about a 30 degree angle and see how it tracked
and make corrections based on that. He asked me why thirty degrees
and I replied, "It seems about right for our speed, or do you want me
to take the time to calculate it." He told me to go ahead and try it
my way and we'd see how it went. It went fine.

No, it didn't go perfect but I was able to tell him where we were and
why we were there and what I was doing to correct it.

>approaching 170 (45 deg from 215), just something inbetween in order
>to sort of track 45 deg off the outbound course and fly a bit longer

You are turning more into the cross wind so it'll be less of a cross
wind and more of a head wind. As a guess I'd only use about half the
wind correction in the PT as on the outbound course. It depends on
your outbound speed, but I'd add about 20 seconds in my plane. The
wind is going to be sending your back toward the inbound by the time
you are half way through your 180 and you need to allow for that early
start back.

>than 1 min so I don't get blown back through the inbound course when I
>do the turn back toward the inbound course. It just seems weird to be
>flying at almost 90 deg from the outbound course. Any opinions on
>this?

That is your heading not your course. If your wind correction is
correct you will still be coming back in at 45 degrees to the outbound
regardless of where the nose is pointed. Besides, your correction was
to the left outbound so it's going to be to the right, inbound. IE,
if you held 20 degrees left (course minus 20) then inbound it going to
be course plus 20 or 027 + 20 for 47 degrees heading to intercept a 72
degree inbound course. Also the inbound wind correction is to the
right, or 72 plus 37 for a heading of 109 degrees.

Remember your wind correction angle in the procedure turn is going to
be less than it is on the outbound and inbound approach course as it
will be either more of a head wind, or tail wind. Don't forget you
are going to be coming back to the inbound course a *lot* faster than
you went out so lead the turn inbound more than for no wind (start the
turn sooner)

I've had ATC be *way* off on the winds and blew through the ILS
intercept at 180 MPH ground speed. (at least half my fault as my
situational awareness was about 5 miles behind) I didn't make that
mistake when I took the flight test.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com