Anybody heard anything yet? My best guess (and ONLY a guess) is bird
ingestion....

Anything would be appreciated...

Regards,

the last video i saw showed angel #6 in a very low,
high speed turn...doin' a "catch up" w/the group...i would
guess a g factor black out / bird strike / loss of
thrust.......just a "arm chair quarterback guess"
on my part....

On Apr 27, 10:05 am, Charlie Wolf > wrote:
> Anybody heard anything yet? My best guess (and ONLY a guess) is bird
> ingestion....
>
> Anything would be appreciated...
>
> Regards,

i believe the official report should be out in a few weeks, or so....


On Apr 27, 10:05 am, Charlie Wolf > wrote:
> Anybody heard anything yet? My best guess (and ONLY a guess) is bird
> ingestion....
>
> Anything would be appreciated...
>
> Regards,

Looking at the vid, I'd guess a g-induced loss of SA. Remember, no G suits
on the Blues. Any problem at that altitude ( loss of SA, mechanical failure,
whatever) and you're in deep poo real quick.

MTW


"Charlie Wolf" > wrote in message
...
> Anybody heard anything yet? My best guess (and ONLY a guess) is bird
> ingestion....
>
> Anything would be appreciated...
>
> Regards,
>

On Apr 27, 11:12 am, ~^ beancounter ~^ > wrote:
> the last video i saw showed angel #6 in a very low,
> high speed turn...doin' a "catch up" w/the group...i would
> guess a g factor black out / bird strike / loss of
> thrust.......just a "arm chair quarterback guess"
> on my part....
>
> On Apr 27, 10:05 am, Charlie Wolf > wrote:
>
> > Anybody heard anything yet? My best guess (and ONLY a guess) is bird
> > ingestion....
>
> > Anything would be appreciated...
>
> > Regards,

Lots of airspeed, it seemed, even if he ate a bird or lost thrust
somehow, a zoom climb could have resulted, getting away from the
ground..I think the varsity turn to join may have put him to
sleep...just a guess tho.

And the conspiracy theories long before that...

"~^ beancounter ~^" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>i believe the official report should be out in a few weeks, or so....
>
>
> On Apr 27, 10:05 am, Charlie Wolf > wrote:
>> Anybody heard anything yet? My best guess (and ONLY a guess) is bird
>> ingestion....
>>
>> Anything would be appreciated...
>>
>> Regards,
>
>
>

Thanks to all that weighed in. I hadn't heard the G-induced greyout
theory yet. Certainly seems like it would be one they would consider
in this case.
Regards,

On Apr 27, 9:05�am, Charlie Wolf > wrote:
> Anybody heard anything yet? *My best guess (and ONLY a guess) is bird
> ingestion....
>
> Anything would be appreciated...

The following might be of some interest. It come from


Blue Angel # 6 crashed about 4:00 p.m. on April 21, three miles from
Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort in South Carolina.

The F/A18 clipped the top of a tree during a formation rejoin behind
the crowd, in preparation for the team's grand finale flypast for a
pitch and break into the circuit for landing.

Understanding why these spectacular accidents happen increases the
aerodynamic body of knowledge for accident investigators in the
commercial aviation arena.

The aircraft wreckage was scattered along a rural roadway, hitting a
vehicle and several homes. Eight people on the ground were injured and
the pilot died. This was the 26th death in the aerobatic team's
history and the third fatal Blue Angels crash in 10 years.

In 1999, two pilots of the Blue Angels were killed when an F/A-18
crashed into a stand of pine trees in Georgia, as the team
practiced for a show. The rejoin join-up comes after the downward bomb-
burst known as the fleur-de-lis (or Delta Vertical Break) scatters
the six team-members to the four points of the compass.

Conjecture about the cause of these crashes has centered on the fact
that the team doesn't wear lower body G suits because the sudden
inflation of the suit under G onset can affect the delicate stick-grip
required for close formation flying. The inference is, that G-LOC (or
G induced loss of consciousness) may have been to blame.

Others have hypothesized about a birdstrike penetrating the canopy and
disabling the pilot.

However, there is another possible explanation, based on eyewitness
accounts of the aircraft's final maneuvering and a snatch of video
footage.

During the low-level rejoin, the classic threat is that of the
concentration and focused gaze of the rejoining pilot on the low
( inside ) side of the leader's turn towards him being upward. ( i.e.,
he is looking up skywards at the lead aircraft and also taking spacing
on the aircraft that he is supposed to follow in the rejoin ).

For geographic positioning, if the leader banks slightly further
toward the rejoining # 6 this can have a much magnified and
disproportionate effect on the team-member rejoining from well down on
the "low side."

It can cause for the rejoining team-member an unnoticed and
inadvertent significant height loss.

This consequence is caused by the distant rejoining team-member
rolling in concert with the leader's roll to a higher bank angle, to
maintain his correct extended echelon rejoin "line" of relativity
( and to keep visual contact.)

This is a well-known cause of accidents in military rejoins,
particularly at night or over water, where [ the low man's ]
inadequate peripheral vision of the proximity of terrain/water can
fail the " low-man " formation rejoiner, simply because of where he
is looking.

The dynamics of the Blue Angels crash are difficult to visualize in
four dimensions.

However, # 6, joining in turn as the last rejoiner, had to resolve
his early rejoin geometry and go from high 8:30 ( relative to Lead )
with a large heading differential to low on the inside of the leader's
left turn ( as the formation re-formed up behind the crowd at 500 feet
AGL.)

In the video of the mishap, the aircraft is seen in a steep left bank
with a high descent rate.

He gets through about 90 degrees of turn, rolling left and descending,
still looking towards Lead for his echelon rejoin line and to be co-
planar with Lead's bank-angle.

He is about 1,500 feet behind when he vanishes into the treetops.

To visualize an "echelon rejoin line", think of a line between the
leader's eyes and his own port wingtip, and extend it.

That projected line changes both as Lead turns ( laterally) and
whenever he rolls ( vertically.)

Lead can therefore unintentionally influence a large height change on
a distant rejoiner looking to straddle that line, simply by changing
his bank angle.

Why does the rejoiner need that line?

Rejoin geometry says that for a brisk but controlled rejoin, he must
rejoin along that echelon line ( or just below it ) or risk latterly
losing sight of the leader ( or the whole formation ) below his RH
canopy sill, and that would constitute a severe collision hazard.

The dilemma is that his concentration and focus must necessarily be on
the formation ( to his right and above) and the required geometry
of his rejoin. And so he can fatally forget momentarily about the
ground on his lower left-hand side.

A moment is all that it takes.

Overcooked rejoins have always been one of the greater formation
flying threats, particularly at low-level and with the added pressure
of time when performing in front of a crowd.

Joe Farrell, who had a plane on display at Saturday's air show,
comments that # 6 largely appeared in control.

" It looked like it was in absolute control all the way into the
ground," Farrell says. " We watched the guys try to reform. He made
the turn and slid right into the ground."

Saturday's airshow was the seventh display from the commencement of
the team's flight season, which began last month.

The F/A18's flight recorder was found in a pond next to the crash
site. Military investigators say it is in good shape, and it has been
sent away for analysis.

The Navy's Blue Angels are stationed in Pensacola and scheduled to fly
in another 66 air shows this year.

Mike Weeks wrote:
> The F/A18 clipped the top of a tree during a formation rejoin behind
> the crowd, in preparation for the team's grand finale flypast for a
> pitch and break into the circuit for landing.

Huh. Sure doesn't fit with the video I saw. But these guys
assuredly know a hell of alot more about it than I do.

What I saw looked a hell of a lot like G-LOC--hardcore
pull, then the nose just sort of fell away, AOB came out,
and he dribbled into the trees. He was well out of the trees
at thsi point (on two separate vid clips I've seen), and it just
makes no sense that he'd try to continue the joinup after
clipping branches.


But what the hell do I know?



Jeff

"Jeff Crowell" > wrote in message
...
> Mike Weeks wrote:
>> The F/A18 clipped the top of a tree during a formation rejoin behind
>> the crowd, in preparation for the team's grand finale flypast for a
>> pitch and break into the circuit for landing.
>
> Huh. Sure doesn't fit with the video I saw. But these guys
> assuredly know a hell of alot more about it than I do.
>
> What I saw looked a hell of a lot like G-LOC--hardcore
> pull, then the nose just sort of fell away, AOB came out,
> and he dribbled into the trees. He was well out of the trees
> at thsi point (on two separate vid clips I've seen), and it just
> makes no sense that he'd try to continue the joinup after
> clipping branches.
>
>
> But what the hell do I know?

I saw the video as well as several others in the demonstration community
including several jet team alumni. Initial opinions are strictly conjecture
as we all know very well.
That being said, we all seem to share the same opinion at this point.
Although the MIR might very well turn it all around on us, to us it looked
like classic Gloc.
Dudley Henriques

Thanks Mike - very interesting.
Regards,

On 2 May 2007 12:11:15 -0700, Mike Weeks > wrote:

>On Apr 27, 9:05?am, Charlie Wolf > wrote:
>> Anybody heard anything yet?
>y best guess (and ONLY a guess) is bird
>> ingestion....
>>
>> Anything would be appreciated...
>
>The following might be of some interest. It come from

>
>Blue Angel # 6 crashed about 4:00 p.m. on April 21, three miles from
>Marine Corps Air Station Beaufort in South Carolina.
>
>The F/A18 clipped the top of a tree during a formation rejoin behind
>the crowd, in preparation for the team's grand finale flypast for a
>pitch and break into the circuit for landing.
>
>Understanding why these spectacular accidents happen increases the
>aerodynamic body of knowledge for accident investigators in the
>commercial aviation arena.
>
>The aircraft wreckage was scattered along a rural roadway, hitting a
>vehicle and several homes. Eight people on the ground were injured and
>the pilot died. This was the 26th death in the aerobatic team's
>history and the third fatal Blue Angels crash in 10 years.
>
>In 1999, two pilots of the Blue Angels were killed when an F/A-18
>crashed into a stand of pine trees in Georgia, as the team
>practiced for a show. The rejoin join-up comes after the downward bomb-
>burst known as the fleur-de-lis (or Delta Vertical Break) scatters
>the six team-members to the four points of the compass.
>
>Conjecture about the cause of these crashes has centered on the fact
>that the team doesn't wear lower body G suits because the sudden
>inflation of the suit under G onset can affect the delicate stick-grip
>required for close formation flying. The inference is, that G-LOC (or
>G induced loss of consciousness) may have been to blame.
>
>Others have hypothesized about a birdstrike penetrating the canopy and
>disabling the pilot.
>
>However, there is another possible explanation, based on eyewitness
>accounts of the aircraft's final maneuvering and a snatch of video
>footage.
>
>During the low-level rejoin, the classic threat is that of the
>concentration and focused gaze of the rejoining pilot on the low
>( inside ) side of the leader's turn towards him being upward. ( i.e.,
>he is looking up skywards at the lead aircraft and also taking spacing
>on the aircraft that he is supposed to follow in the rejoin ).
>
>For geographic positioning, if the leader banks slightly further
>toward the rejoining # 6 this can have a much magnified and
>disproportionate effect on the team-member rejoining from well down on
>the "low side."
>
>It can cause for the rejoining team-member an unnoticed and
>inadvertent significant height loss.
>
>This consequence is caused by the distant rejoining team-member
>rolling in concert with the leader's roll to a higher bank angle, to
>maintain his correct extended echelon rejoin "line" of relativity
>( and to keep visual contact.)
>
>This is a well-known cause of accidents in military rejoins,
>particularly at night or over water, where [ the low man's ]
>inadequate peripheral vision of the proximity of terrain/water can
>fail the " low-man " formation rejoiner, simply because of where he
>is looking.
>
>The dynamics of the Blue Angels crash are difficult to visualize in
>four dimensions.
>
>However, # 6, joining in turn as the last rejoiner, had to resolve
>his early rejoin geometry and go from high 8:30 ( relative to Lead )
>with a large heading differential to low on the inside of the leader's
>left turn ( as the formation re-formed up behind the crowd at 500 feet
>AGL.)
>
>In the video of the mishap, the aircraft is seen in a steep left bank
>with a high descent rate.
>
>He gets through about 90 degrees of turn, rolling left and descending,
>still looking towards Lead for his echelon rejoin line and to be co-
>planar with Lead's bank-angle.
>
>He is about 1,500 feet behind when he vanishes into the treetops.
>
>To visualize an "echelon rejoin line", think of a line between the
>leader's eyes and his own port wingtip, and extend it.
>
>That projected line changes both as Lead turns ( laterally) and
>whenever he rolls ( vertically.)
>
>Lead can therefore unintentionally influence a large height change on
>a distant rejoiner looking to straddle that line, simply by changing
>his bank angle.
>
>Why does the rejoiner need that line?
>
>Rejoin geometry says that for a brisk but controlled rejoin, he must
>rejoin along that echelon line ( or just below it ) or risk latterly
>losing sight of the leader ( or the whole formation ) below his RH
>canopy sill, and that would constitute a severe collision hazard.
>
>The dilemma is that his concentration and focus must necessarily be on
>the formation ( to his right and above) and the required geometry
>of his rejoin. And so he can fatally forget momentarily about the
>ground on his lower left-hand side.
>
>A moment is all that it takes.
>
>Overcooked rejoins have always been one of the greater formation
>flying threats, particularly at low-level and with the added pressure
>of time when performing in front of a crowd.
>
>Joe Farrell, who had a plane on display at Saturday's air show,
>comments that # 6 largely appeared in control.
>
>" It looked like it was in absolute control all the way into the
>ground," Farrell says. " We watched the guys try to reform. He made
>the turn and slid right into the ground."
>
>Saturday's airshow was the seventh display from the commencement of
>the team's flight season, which began last month.
>
>The F/A18's flight recorder was found in a pond next to the crash
>site. Military investigators say it is in good shape, and it has been
>sent away for analysis.
>
>The Navy's Blue Angels are stationed in Pensacola and scheduled to fly
>in another 66 air shows this year.

I was given credit for writing an article about the recent crash of a
Blue Angels pilot.

What was NOT included was my disclaimer that this was originally
written as an article that appeared in the 30 April issue of Air
Safety Week.

As an employee, I am not authorized to speak on behalf of The Boeing
Company, which does not comment on accidents until the investigation
is completed.

Thank You
Mike Brickman