I'm really tired of their stubborness about this issue. Airventure is
the one place a folding bike would be invaluable. But instead, they
insist we walk with no assist over the huge area of the fly-in.
As a result of their turning a deaf ear to requests for change, I'm
not renewing my membership or attending their fly-ins.
SNF is just as stubborn. With the cost of fuel, they are going to have
enough trouble getting an adequate turnout of sport planes at their
gathering in OSH, maybe now is time to turn the screws on them and
pressure them to change so of those draconian rules.

Sliker wrote:
> I'm really tired of their stubborness about this issue... maybe now is time to turn the screws on them and
> pressure them to change so of those draconian rules.

I dont expect them to budge on what they and their insurer likely
consider a safety issue. Good luck with your boycott.

Dave

On Jun 20, 7:16 pm, Dave S > wrote:
> Sliker wrote:
> > I'm really tired of their stubborness about this issue... maybe now is time to turn the screws on them and
> > pressure them to change so of those draconian rules.
>
> I dont expect them to budge on what they and their insurer likely
> consider a safety issue. Good luck with your boycott.
>
> Dave

What good would it be to allow them? If your
too tired to walk the grounds how are you
going to peddle a bike and stay up? I don't
think that I want them, but hey, give it a try.
lou

When I was at Oshkosh a couple years back it I recall the even the
relatively few 'official' golf cars were at times a problem where traffic
was thick. When you've got that huge mass of walking traffic, of various
ages and paces, having vehicles mixed in (bicycles included) is problematic
and possibly dangerous.

I walked the whole thing and built some impressive blisters, but I don't
mind getting some good excercise every once in a while. If I recall
correctly, don't they also have motorized carts/trams to move people from
one area to another, should they need an assist? I know they do at SNF.

"Sliker" > wrote in message
...
> I'm really tired of their stubborness about this issue. Airventure is
> the one place a folding bike would be invaluable. But instead, they
> insist we walk with no assist over the huge area of the fly-in.
> As a result of their turning a deaf ear to requests for change, I'm
> not renewing my membership or attending their fly-ins.
> SNF is just as stubborn. With the cost of fuel, they are going to have
> enough trouble getting an adequate turnout of sport planes at their
> gathering in OSH, maybe now is time to turn the screws on them and
> pressure them to change so of those draconian rules.

"Sliker" > wrote in message ...
> I'm really tired of their stubborness about this issue. Airventure is
> the one place a folding bike would be invaluable. But instead, they
> insist we walk with no assist over the huge area of the fly-in.
> As a result of their turning a deaf ear to requests for change, I'm
> not renewing my membership or attending their fly-ins.
> SNF is just as stubborn. With the cost of fuel, they are going to have
> enough trouble getting an adequate turnout of sport planes at their
> gathering in OSH, maybe now is time to turn the screws on them and
> pressure them to change so of those draconian rules.



Maybe the redesigned grounds at OSH will allow for bike paths, otherwise I take the trams whenever possible...

Blueskies wrote:
>
> "Sliker" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I'm really tired of their stubborness about this issue. Airventure is
>> the one place a folding bike would be invaluable. But instead, they
>> insist we walk with no assist over the huge area of the fly-in. As a
>> result of their turning a deaf ear to requests for change, I'm
>> not renewing my membership or attending their fly-ins. SNF is just as
>> stubborn. With the cost of fuel, they are going to have
>> enough trouble getting an adequate turnout of sport planes at their
>> gathering in OSH, maybe now is time to turn the screws on them and
>> pressure them to change so of those draconian rules.
>
>
>
>
> Maybe the redesigned grounds at OSH will allow for bike paths, otherwise
> I take the trams whenever possible...

I agree. Use the trams. There's enough congestion that I think bikes
would just lead to people getting run over. Plus, do you think you
wouldn't be frustrated trying to navigate a bike through the crowd of
pedestrians? It's bad enough WALKING through the crowds. Still, it's
the best gig going and you can certainly protest by not renewing, but
then again, who is being stubborn? ;)

Scott

They do allow bikes in both the plane and rv camping areas and they provide
a large shuttle service inside the main grounds. If your handicapped you
can rent scooters in the main grounds.

get over it.

"Sliker" > wrote in message
...
> I'm really tired of their stubborness about this issue. Airventure is
> the one place a folding bike would be invaluable. But instead, they
> insist we walk with no assist over the huge area of the fly-in.
> As a result of their turning a deaf ear to requests for change, I'm
> not renewing my membership or attending their fly-ins.
> SNF is just as stubborn. With the cost of fuel, they are going to have
> enough trouble getting an adequate turnout of sport planes at their
> gathering in OSH, maybe now is time to turn the screws on them and
> pressure them to change so of those draconian rules.

The trams are not usually available when you want one, and are a waste
of time waiting for them. I grab one when I see one going in the right
direction, but it's not that often. Or they are full. I'd put a motor
on my bike, so I could get around. And the flight line isn't that
packed with pedestrians, there's more than enough room for a folding
bike. Now I can see why the rules never get changed, as soon as it's
tried, everyone defends anything Poberenzy and crowd want to issue as
law. I've been to a lot of local fly-ins that don't have so many rules
and guess what? it's not a problem with a bike. It's actually been
done succesfully! without incident. Can you imagine? Probably hard for
the dot every i, cross every t, follow every rule to the letter crowd.
Like sheep. I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
homebuilt designs built.

"Sliker" > wrote in message
...
> The trams are not usually available when you want one, and are a waste
> of time waiting for them. I grab one when I see one going in the right
> direction, but it's not that often. Or they are full. I'd put a motor
> on my bike, so I could get around. And the flight line isn't that
> packed with pedestrians, there's more than enough room for a folding
> bike. Now I can see why the rules never get changed, as soon as it's
> tried, everyone defends anything Poberenzy and crowd want to issue as
> law. I've been to a lot of local fly-ins that don't have so many rules
> and guess what? it's not a problem with a bike. It's actually been
> done succesfully! without incident. Can you imagine? Probably hard for
> the dot every i, cross every t, follow every rule to the letter crowd.
> Like sheep. I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
> homebuilt designs built.

We get new homebuilt designs when someone steps up to the plate and creates
one. The EAA isn't involved, an individual or group of individuals handle
it. Since you raised the subject, how many aircraft have you designed
and/or built?

Going back to the bike issue, as an airplane owner, I don't want anyone from
an airshow crowd riding a bike near my airplane. First, how do we determine
who is gonna be careful and who is gonna run into my airplane? Alternately,
how do we keep someone on a bike from speeding into a spinning prop? Bikes
near a busy flightline are a bad idea.

On the other hand, if you're a pilot or careful person with a bike on a ramp
with low activity, that isn't a problem, but that doesn't exactly describe
Oshkosh, does it?

KB

On Jun 21, 11:29 am, Sliker > wrote:
> The trams are not usually available when you want one, and are a waste
> of time waiting for them. I grab one when I see one going in the right
> direction, but it's not that often. Or they are full. I'd put a motor
> on my bike, so I could get around. And the flight line isn't that
> packed with pedestrians, there's more than enough room for a folding
> bike. Now I can see why the rules never get changed, as soon as it's
> tried, everyone defends anything Poberenzy and crowd want to issue as
> law. I've been to a lot of local fly-ins that don't have so many rules
> and guess what? it's not a problem with a bike. It's actually been
> done succesfully! without incident. Can you imagine? Probably hard for
> the dot every i, cross every t, follow every rule to the letter crowd.
> Like sheep. I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
> homebuilt designs built.

Your a moron.

Sliker wrote:
I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
> homebuilt designs built.

I wonder if you personally attack everyone who dares to disagree with
your point of view.

I commend you on your maturity and objectivity.

On Jun 21, 6:58 pm, Dave S > wrote:
> Sliker wrote:
>
> I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
>
> > homebuilt designs built.
>
> I wonder if you personally attack everyone who dares to disagree with
> your point of view.
>
> I commend you on your maturity and objectivity.

First of all, you didn't disagree with my point of view, I disagreed
with yours. Second, since I did disagree, you try to paint a picture
of
blind following's as if I don't have my own opinion. Third, you want
to talk about maturity, think before you talk. Moron.
Lou

"Lou" > wrote in message ...
> On Jun 21, 6:58 pm, Dave S > wrote:
>> Sliker wrote:
>>
>> I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
>>
>> > homebuilt designs built.
>>
>> I wonder if you personally attack everyone who dares to disagree with
>> your point of view.
>>
>> I commend you on your maturity and objectivity.
>
> First of all, you didn't disagree with my point of view, I disagreed
> with yours. Second, since I did disagree, you try to paint a picture
> of
> blind following's as if I don't have my own opinion. Third, you want
> to talk about maturity, think before you talk. Moron.
> Lou

How do I spell moron? It starts with L, has an O in the middle, and ends with YOU...

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 14:10:33 -0700 (PDT), Lou >
wrote:
>
>Your a moron.

Or anyone else that disagrees with your views

Kyle Boatright wrote:
>
> "Sliker" > wrote in message
> ...
> I'd put a motor
>> on my bike, so I could get around. And the flight line isn't that
>> packed with pedestrians, there's more than enough room for a folding
>> bike. Now I can see why the rules never get changed, as soon as it's
>> tried, everyone defends anything Poberenzy and crowd want to issue as
>> law.

>
> On the other hand, if you're a pilot or careful person with a bike on a
> ramp with low activity, that isn't a problem, but that doesn't exactly
> describe Oshkosh, does it?
>
> KB
I was wondering when the last time he was to Oshkosh (maybe 1956 or
so???) where the flightline wasn't crowded with pedestrians. I've been
there pretty much every year since 1975 and it always seems too crowded
to try and weave a bike through the crowd (assuming you ride the bike on
the pavement and not row to row sneaking between planes, which I agree,
would not thrill me when my plane is parked there). I don't think we're
all sheep following the leader at all...as Kyle says who wants a bike
(especially motorized) running around their airplane???

Scott

On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:58:56 -0500, Dave S >
wrote:

>Sliker wrote:
> I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
>> homebuilt designs built.
>
>I wonder if you personally attack everyone who dares to disagree with
>your point of view.
>
>I commend you on your maturity and objectivity.


Go ahead, walk your arse off on the Airventure fly-in. I've been going
to that thing since '73, And I could see so much more of it if it
weren't for all the walking involved. That thing is spread out far and
wide. Many times, things I want to see are so far, I just don't have
the energy to go see them, especially towards the end of the day.
A person that flys into the show, in a homebuilt, parks and then you
face the fact that you have no ground transportation, the hotels are
full, and try getting a rental car. I'ved used the busses, but they
aren't ideal, especially if they aren't going where your lodging is.
So you are on your feet from the time you land and park, until you
leave. And they won't let us use a folding bike. Stubborn asses
Go ahead and defend that archaic rule. Then one day when Airventure is
no more, we'll all look back and wonder why it died. The list will be
long, and some of these unneccesary rules will be at the top of the
list. Don't think it will happen? That's what they thought back in the
golden age of air racing too, and a little over 10 years after it
started, it was finished. And not just due to the war, it was about
done when that started. People lost interest. And when that's
happening, we don't need any unneccesary rules to give attendees more
reasons not to attend the event.

Well then, what about the volunteers, who ride motorcycles all over
the grounds? I've not heard one instance of them running into an
airplane. Why would a pilot that brings his folding bike with him be
any less able to avoid hitting a plane? There's more than enough room
to maneuver a bike at that event. If not, the volunteers wouldn't have
room to roam at will on their motorcycles. And I'm not talking about
letting the entire general populace ride bikes, just giving the ones
who fly in a show plane. Exceptions can be made. One year at Oshkosh,
I noticed the Taylor flying car, sans wings, driving all over the
grounds anywhere he wanted to go with it. It was really neat to see,
and I admired it everytime it drove by. Not once did I worry about
what he might hit with it. I was glad to see it there, and able to
roam the grounds at will. If you don't want a bike, or motorized one
around your plane, then write the EAA and tell them no more volunteers
on motorcycles on the flight line, or you aren't coming. See what they
in return.

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 13:04:37 +0000, Scott >
wrote:
>> On the other hand, if you're a pilot or careful person with a bike on a
>> ramp with low activity, that isn't a problem, but that doesn't exactly
>> describe Oshkosh, does it?
>>
>> KB
>I was wondering when the last time he was to Oshkosh (maybe 1956 or
>so???) where the flightline wasn't crowded with pedestrians. I've been
>there pretty much every year since 1975 and it always seems too crowded
>to try and weave a bike through the crowd (assuming you ride the bike on
>the pavement and not row to row sneaking between planes, which I agree,
>would not thrill me when my plane is parked there). I don't think we're
>all sheep following the leader at all...as Kyle says who wants a bike
>(especially motorized) running around their airplane???
>
>Scott

"Sliker" > wrote

>volunteers, who ride motorcycles all over
> the grounds? I've not heard one instance of them running into an
> airplane.

Volunteers do not ride motorcycles all over the grounds.
Some of the flightline and aircraft movement volunteers, POP volunteers and
maybe others who need to cover a lot of ground, coordinating parking,
greeting, taxiing etc., ride motor scooters. These volunteers are absolutly
nesessary to the safe and efficient operation of Airventure. If you want to
ride a scooter, volunteer for this duty. Be warned, they work long hours in
the sun and carry a lot of responsibility.

> Why would a pilot that brings his folding bike with him be
> any less able to avoid hitting a plane? There's more than enough room
> to maneuver a bike at that event

The volunteers are covered by insurance if they happen to hit a plane. Would
you be?
There may be room in some areas at some times, but the addition of ten
thousand bikes zooming around at peak times is scary.

> And I'm not talking about
> letting the entire general populace ride bikes, just giving the ones
> who fly in a show plane.

If you fly in in a show plane or other homebuilt, ask the greeter who shows
up when you tie down, to call the Welcome Wagon to your parking place.
They'll give you a ride to any place on the airport or the campgrounds. Just
leave a fat tip and you'll be remembered by the drivers. They give rides to
homebuilders and other friendly folks all through the event, even those that
don't tip.

> I noticed the Taylor flying car, sans wings, driving all over the
> grounds anywhere he wanted to go with it. It was really neat to see,
> and I admired it everytime it drove by. Not once did I worry about
> what he might hit with it. I was glad to see it there, and able to
> roam the grounds at will. If you don't want a bike, or motorized one
> around your plane, then write the EAA and tell them no more volunteers
> on motorcycles on the flight line, or you aren't coming. See what they
> in return.
My guess, they'll say "sorry you're not going to make it to Airventure. Have
a nice day."

Tom

On Jun 22, 8:08 am, Sliker > wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:58:56 -0500, Dave S >
> wrote:
>
> >Sliker wrote:
> > I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
> >> homebuilt designs built.
>
> >I wonder if you personally attack everyone who dares to disagree with
> >your point of view.
>
> >I commend you on your maturity and objectivity.
>
> Go ahead, walk your arse off on the Airventure fly-in. I've been going
> to that thing since '73, And I could see so much more of it if it
> weren't for all the walking involved. That thing is spread out far and
> wide. Many times, things I want to see are so far, I just don't have
> the energy to go see them, especially towards the end of the day.
> A person that flys into the show, in a homebuilt, parks and then you
> face the fact that you have no ground transportation, the hotels are
> full, and try getting a rental car. I'ved used the busses, but they
> aren't ideal, especially if they aren't going where your lodging is.
> So you are on your feet from the time you land and park, until you
> leave. And they won't let us use a folding bike. Stubborn asses
> Go ahead and defend that archaic rule. Then one day when Airventure is
> no more, we'll all look back and wonder why it died. The list will be
> long, and some of these unneccesary rules will be at the top of the
> list. Don't think it will happen? That's what they thought back in the
> golden age of air racing too, and a little over 10 years after it
> started, it was finished. And not just due to the war, it was about
> done when that started. People lost interest. And when that's
> happening, we don't need any unneccesary rules to give attendees more
> reasons not to attend the event.


I can't stand lazy people.
Lou

Sliker wrote:
> The trams are not usually available when you want one, and are a waste
> of time waiting for them. I grab one when I see one going in the right
> direction, but it's not that often. Or they are full. I'd put a motor
> on my bike, so I could get around. And the flight line isn't that
> packed with pedestrians, there's more than enough room for a folding
> bike. Now I can see why the rules never get changed, as soon as it's
> tried, everyone defends anything Poberenzy and crowd want to issue as
> law. I've been to a lot of local fly-ins that don't have so many rules
> and guess what? it's not a problem with a bike. It's actually been
> done succesfully! without incident. Can you imagine? Probably hard for
> the dot every i, cross every t, follow every rule to the letter crowd.
> Like sheep. I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
> homebuilt designs built.

So now you want not only your bike you want a motorized bike? What next,
are you going to ask to let you drive your car around the grounds?

I'm sure EAA will miss you as a member. Which is worse a sheep or a whiner?

On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 16:20:35 -0700 (PDT), Lou >
wrote:

>On Jun 22, 8:08 am, Sliker > wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:58:56 -0500, Dave S >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Sliker wrote:
>> > I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
>> >> homebuilt designs built.
>>
>> >I wonder if you personally attack everyone who dares to disagree with
>> >your point of view.
>>
>> >I commend you on your maturity and objectivity.
>>
>> Go ahead, walk your arse off on the Airventure fly-in. I've been going
>> to that thing since '73, And I could see so much more of it if it
>> weren't for all the walking involved. That thing is spread out far and
>> wide. Many times, things I want to see are so far, I just don't have
>> the energy to go see them, especially towards the end of the day.
>> A person that flys into the show, in a homebuilt, parks and then you
>> face the fact that you have no ground transportation, the hotels are
>> full, and try getting a rental car. I'ved used the busses, but they
>> aren't ideal, especially if they aren't going where your lodging is.
>> So you are on your feet from the time you land and park, until you
>> leave. And they won't let us use a folding bike. Stubborn asses
>> Go ahead and defend that archaic rule. Then one day when Airventure is
>> no more, we'll all look back and wonder why it died. The list will be
>> long, and some of these unneccesary rules will be at the top of the
>> list. Don't think it will happen? That's what they thought back in the
>> golden age of air racing too, and a little over 10 years after it
>> started, it was finished. And not just due to the war, it was about
>> done when that started. People lost interest. And when that's
>> happening, we don't need any unneccesary rules to give attendees more
>> reasons not to attend the event.
>
>
>I can't stand lazy people.
> Lou

I must say that the last time I attended Sun Fun I was impressed with
their system. They have a readily accessable Tram terminal with routes
posted above the entries. There is also a trailer ride available at a
modest price (I think a chapter puts it on ) that goes everywhere on
the flight lines so you can get an overview of what's there. In
addition they have a dedicated road strictly for volunteer carts that
doesn't interfere with pedestrian traffiic.
While Oskosh covers more area I think a little planning coulld do
something similar.

Ed

On Jun 23, 10:07*am, Gig 601Xl Builder >
wrote:
> Sliker wrote:
> > The trams are not usually available when you want one, and are a waste
> > of time waiting for them. I grab one when I see one going in the right
> > direction, but it's not that often. Or they are full. I'd put a motor
> > on my bike, so I could get around. And the flight line isn't that
> > packed with pedestrians, there's more than enough room for a folding
> > bike. Now I can see why the rules never get changed, as soon as it's
> > tried, everyone defends anything Poberenzy and crowd want to issue as
> > law. I've been to a lot of local fly-ins that don't have so many rules
> > and guess what? it's not a problem with a bike. It's actually been
> > done succesfully! without incident. Can you imagine? Probably hard for
> > the dot every i, cross every t, follow every rule to the letter crowd.
> > Like sheep. I wonder how with attitudes like that, we ever get new
> > homebuilt designs built.
>
> So now you want not only your bike you want a motorized bike? What next,
> are you going to ask to let you drive your car around the grounds?
>
> I'm sure EAA will miss you as a member. Which is worse a sheep or a whiner?

Whiner by a wide margin.

Can't you just see 50,000 people trying to navigate around the crowds
on motorized scooters and bikes? Can't you just imagine the line of
lawyers handing out cards for liability lawsuits? If you are
physically unable to walk, then an exception is in order otherwise,
get off you lazy ass and walk.

Hey Gig, hows the plane coming?
Lou

Very splendid, I like very muchJapanese sex (http://www.love-sex-videos.com/japanese-sex/)Free sex videos (http://www.love-sex-videos.com/free-sex-videos/)Office sex (http://www.love-sex-videos.com/office-sex/)sex videos (http://www.love-sex-videos.com)

Lou wrote:
> Hey Gig, hows the plane coming?
> Lou

Slow as dirt. But I've gotten my engine and things are speeding up.

On Jun 24, 8:56 am, Gig 601Xl Builder >
wrote:
> Lou wrote:
> > Hey Gig, hows the plane coming?
> > Lou
>
> Slow as dirt. But I've gotten my engine and things are speeding up.

I know the feeling.
Lou

On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:01:19 -0700 (PDT), BobR
> wrote:


>
>Whiner by a wide margin.
>
>Can't you just see 50,000 people trying to navigate around the crowds
>on motorized scooters and bikes? Can't you just imagine the line of
>lawyers handing out cards for liability lawsuits? If you are
>physically unable to walk, then an exception is in order otherwise,
>get off you lazy ass and walk.

I didn't say let eveyone use them, but those flying in, in planes.
They don't have cars with them.

I can walk, but not as good as in the past. I have ALS. but the early
stages of it, so I can still get around.

"Sliker" > wrote

> I can walk, but not as good as in the past. I have ALS. but the early
> stages of it, so I can still get around.

If you have ALS, you should qualify being allowed to bring a scooter, or
rent one, and go anywhere on the grounds.

There have been many here complain about the relatively small numbers of
scooters, which seem to grow in numbers every year. Some try to see how
many people they can bully out of the way, rather than blending with the
foot traffic, so imagine how it would be if everyone that flew in, rode
bikes on the grounds.

If you get a scooter, promise you will be polite with it's use?
--
Jim in NC

Yeah, that'll teach 'em. So, you don't vote either, do you? After all, there are very few candidates with whom I agree 100%. One thing irks you and you quit? Or is this the excuse you have been looking for to quit supporting the ONLY organization out there that lobbies for the amateur builder. EAA and AOPA  are about the only orgs large enough to lobby to keep ANY fuel available for nuisance "hobby" aviation (As Babs Boxer calls it). I would never have thought the word "draconian" could be applied to a "walkers only" rule.

Sliker wrote: I'm really tired of their stubborness about this issue. Airventure is
the one place a folding bike would be invaluable. But instead, they
insist we walk with no assist over the huge area of the fly-in.
As a result of their turning a deaf ear to requests for change, I'm
not renewing my membership or attending their fly-ins.
SNF is just as stubborn. With the cost of fuel, they are going to have
enough trouble getting an adequate turnout of sport planes at their
gathering in OSH, maybe now is time to turn the screws on them and
pressure them to change so of those draconian rules.

Bruce A. Frank wrote:
> Yeah, that'll teach 'em. So, you don't vote either, do you? After all,
> there are very few candidates with whom I agree 100%. One thing irks you
> and you quit? Or is this the excuse you have been looking for to quit
> supporting the ONLY organization out there that lobbies for the amateur
> builder. EAA and AOPA are about the only orgs large enough to lobby to
> keep ANY fuel available for nuisance "hobby" aviation (As Babs Boxer
> calls it). I would never have thought the word "draconian" could be
> applied to a "walkers only" rule.

Does all of the EAA leadership adhere to this rule also?

Matt