http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19461000german_secrets.html

Here's a 1946 look at the German wartime secrets- just a "fraction" of
the thousands of tons of technical documents stored at Wright Field.
Have fun being in denial.
And to make matters worse, Keith 'ol boy, poor Britain won the war yet
could not afford to develop the massive amount of advanced technology
provided by defeated Germany... because the British Govt. was indebted
to the US for decades afterwards and whatever excellent programs the
Brits did manage to propose were all shut down by your own MPs.
Britain could have very well challenged the US in both aviation and
space if they had won the war as a rich nation. Instead, lowly Britain
(due to German aggression- smile :) ) lost its superpower status and
most of her colonies postwar!
Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

Rob

robert arndt wrote:

> Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
> unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
> Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

Will you be emigrating to continental Europe soon?

The Germans probably still have a warehouse full of those
spiffy, boffo, kewl WWII style helmets somewhere.

Maybe they'd let you try one on!


SMH

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19461000german_secrets.html
>
> Here's a 1946 look at the German wartime secrets- just a "fraction" of
> the thousands of tons of technical documents stored at Wright Field.
> Have fun being in denial.

Since when has it been denied that German industry did indeed
produce many new products just as did US and British industry.

Those of Britain included Polythene, synthetic rubber and many
of the new plastic materials that made electronics production
much easier. The USA produced nylon. What Germany was BAD
at was organising its war production in an efficient manner.

One thing that caught my eye was their praise of a miniature
thermionic valve and how 'advanced' it was. Yey such devices
were produced by the MILLION in the USA for use in proximity
fuses and could survive the enormous accelration of being
fired from a gun


> And to make matters worse, Keith 'ol boy, poor Britain won the war yet
> could not afford to develop the massive amount of advanced technology
> provided by defeated Germany... because the British Govt. was indebted
> to the US for decades afterwards and whatever excellent programs the
> Brits did manage to propose were all shut down by your own MPs.

Thats not altogether true of course, much of the British chemical
and petrochemicals industry did rather well out of it

> Britain could have very well challenged the US in both aviation and
> space if they had won the war as a rich nation. Instead, lowly Britain
> (due to German aggression- smile :) ) lost its superpower status and
> most of her colonies postwar!

The colnies were going anyway. Canada, Australia and New Zealand
were already fully independent, South Africa was moving rapidly to
that status and the decision to grant India independence had been
made in 1937. The major delaying factor there was the inability
of the Hindu and Moslem groups to agree on the final form
India independence

> Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
> unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.

Scarcely old boy. Britain is one of the 6 leading trading
nations, one of the 5 permanent members of the security
council and has of late rather discomfited France and Germany
by winning the support of many of the other EU nations, especially
the new members from eastern europe who for historical reasons are
rather wary of German hegemony.

Of course given the continuing economic problems of
both France and Germany they are likely to see their
preponderance decline even further.

> Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".
>

The empire was an idea who's time had past, Britains
didnt want to be the slavemasters of the world.

Keith

On 6 Jun 2004 02:40:18 -0700, (robert arndt) wrote:

>http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19461000german_secrets.html
>
>Here's a 1946 look at the German wartime secrets- just a "fraction" of
>the thousands of tons of technical documents stored at Wright Field.
>Have fun being in denial.
>And to make matters worse, Keith 'ol boy, poor Britain won the war yet
>could not afford to develop the massive amount of advanced technology
>provided by defeated Germany... because the British Govt. was indebted
>to the US for decades afterwards and whatever excellent programs the
>Brits did manage to propose were all shut down by your own MPs.
>Britain could have very well challenged the US in both aviation and
>space if they had won the war as a rich nation. Instead, lowly Britain
>(due to German aggression- smile :) ) lost its superpower status and
>most of her colonies postwar!
>Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
>unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
>Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".
>
>Rob

Using a Neo-Nazi holocaust denying web site as a source makes
your argument here even more ridiculous than your regular rants.
Did you think that the denizens of this group were so stupid that we
would not look at that site for what it is?

Al Minyard

Stephen Harding wrote:
> robert arndt wrote:
>
>> Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
>> unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
>> Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".
>
> Will you be emigrating to continental Europe soon?
>
> The Germans probably still have a warehouse full of those
> spiffy, boffo, kewl WWII style helmets somewhere.
>
> Maybe they'd let you try one on!

What was it that Robert said that brought on your comments about emigrating and
helmets? Are you two guys speaking some sort of language I can't recognize?
(^-^)))

George Z.
>
>
> SMH

In article >,
Stephen Harding > wrote:

> robert arndt wrote:
>
> > Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
> > unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
> > Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".
>
> Will you be emigrating to continental Europe soon?

That would be nice, if not for the europeans affected.

> The Germans probably still have a warehouse full of those
> spiffy, boffo, kewl WWII style helmets somewhere.
>
> Maybe they'd let you try one on!
>
>
> SMH

robert arndt wrote:
[... snip rant...]

> Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
> unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
> Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

Politically, it might sometimes appear to act like a "US puppet", but
given that the dollar is at al all-time low against the pound and
getting weaker by the day, Britain must be doing something better than
the States.

Oh, and the reason that the "sun never sets on the British Empire" was
because even God didn't trust and Englishman in the dark :-)

-- Darrell

Stephen Harding > wrote in message >...
> robert arndt wrote:
>
> > Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
> > unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
> > Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".
>
> Will you be emigrating to continental Europe soon?

Why should I since German-Americans constitute the single largest
ethnic majority within the Caucasian race in the US- roughly 60+
million Americans?
>
> The Germans probably still have a warehouse full of those
> spiffy, boffo, kewl WWII style helmets somewhere.
>
> Maybe they'd let you try one on!

Newsflash... most of the premiere armies in the world/SFs/HRUs now use
a "Fritz-type" helmet. I can buy one at any local Army/Navy surplus
store.
BTW, the German IDZ soldiers in the Balkans are already wearing the
new "titan" helmets... and they look great. I wouldn't mind owning one
at all :)

Rob


>
> SMH

On 6 Jun 2004 12:19:29 -0700, (robert arndt) wrote:

>Stephen Harding > wrote in message >...
>> robert arndt wrote:
>>
>> > Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
>> > unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
>> > Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".
>>
>> Will you be emigrating to continental Europe soon?
>
>Why should I since German-Americans constitute the single largest
>ethnic majority within the Caucasian race in the US- roughly 60+
>million Americans?

Back to Hitler's racism, I see.
>>
>> The Germans probably still have a warehouse full of those
>> spiffy, boffo, kewl WWII style helmets somewhere.
>>
>> Maybe they'd let you try one on!
>
>Newsflash... most of the premiere armies in the world/SFs/HRUs now use
>a "Fritz-type" helmet. I can buy one at any local Army/Navy surplus
>store.
>BTW, the German IDZ soldiers in the Balkans are already wearing the
>new "titan" helmets... and they look great. I wouldn't mind owning one
>at all :)
>
>Rob

The "Fritz type" that you allude to is *not* worn by and modern armed
force. Quite a few of them do wear Kevlar helmets, but the German helmets
are museum pieces

Al Minyard

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:19:28 GMT, Darrell Earnshaw > wrote:

>robert arndt wrote:
>[... snip rant...]
>
>> Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
>> unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and France.
>> Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".
>
>Politically, it might sometimes appear to act like a "US puppet", but
>given that the dollar is at al all-time low against the pound and
>getting weaker by the day, Britain must be doing something better than
>the States.
>
>Oh, and the reason that the "sun never sets on the British Empire" was
>because even God didn't trust and Englishman in the dark :-)
>
>-- Darrell

I suggest that you do a bit of research before making such silly statements.
The Pound Sterling is far, far below its historic level..

Al Minyard

Uzytkownik "robert arndt" > napisal w wiadomosci
om...
> http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19461000german_secrets.html
>
> Here's a 1946 look at the German wartime secrets- just a "fraction" of
> the thousands of tons of technical documents stored at Wright Field.
> Have fun being in denial.
[snip...]

First, I found only a magazine's story. Second, since when Harper's
Magazine is a regarded source of technical information?

There's no doubt that Germany had big contribution in the world's
technological progress. On the other hand Germans DID NOT invent everything
and decades before any other country. They invented plenty of things, but
NOT EVERYTHING as you're trying to suggest.

JasiekS
Warsaw, Poland

>From: (robert arndt)
>
>Newsflash... most of the premiere armies in the world/SFs/HRUs now use
>a "Fritz-type" helmet. I can buy one at any local Army/Navy surplus
>store.
>BTW, the German IDZ soldiers in the Balkans are already wearing the
>new "titan" helmets... and they look great. I wouldn't mind owning one
>at all :)
>
>Rob

Teuton, once again your powers of perception have let you down. Not ONE current
kevlar helmet looks like any variation of the steel pots ever worn by the
Germans. Even if they did what does that prove? I have several German helmets
going back to WW1 in my collection along with a U.S.current issue. There isn't
a comparison.

Once again you are grasping at straws in an attempt to prove your country won
anything in WW2. What you did win was an improved standard of living courtesy
of the U.S. Britain and France.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

>Back to Hitler's racism, I see.

Why?
For example if somebody had stated "Hispanics constitute 20% of US
population" would you call it "Back to Franco's fashism"?

>The empire was an idea who's time had past, Britains
>didnt want to be the slavemasters of the world.

Really?,I think the British empire officially ended during Suez crisis when US
told British rather unexpectedly (at least for the Brits) "stay at home or
else".
US engagement in WWII had two goals:
1)Defeating Nazi Germany
2)Destroying British Empire

Till Suez crisis Brits hoped that US might want to forget second goal,but US
had other plans.

>Scarcely old boy. Britain is one of the 6 leading trading
>nations, one of the 5 permanent members of the security
>council and has of late rather discomfited France and Germany
>by winning the support of many of the other EU nations, especially
>the new members from eastern europe who for historical reasons are

Just a question:
was Britain a part of "original" Roman empire?.
Every country that was part of the "original" will also be part of
resurrected Roman empire.period.

>From: (robert arndt)
>
>
>Here's a 1946 look at the German wartime secrets- just a "fraction" of
>the thousands of tons of technical documents stored at Wright Field.

I can't figure it out.....Did German engineers actually invent all this stuff
or were the designs, like the flying saucer designs, psychically channeled from
the master race of Aryan aliens living in the Aldebaran star system?
Dave

>>>>> "Dav1936531" == Dav1936531 > writes:

>> From: (robert arndt)
>> >
>>
>> Here's a 1946 look at the German wartime secrets- just a
>> "fraction" of the thousands of tons of technical documents
>> stored at Wright Field.

Dav1936531> I can't figure it out.....Did German engineers
Dav1936531> actually invent all this stuff or were the designs,
Dav1936531> like the flying saucer designs, psychically channeled
Dav1936531> from the master race of Aryan aliens living in the
Dav1936531> Aldebaran star system? Dave

They were *good* engineers, so they didn't pass on their secrets
to their Nazi masters to allow them to rule the world. Oh, that
should be the Aldebaran masters...

--
G Hassenpflug * IJN & JMSDF equipment/history fan

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >The empire was an idea who's time had past, Britains
> >didnt want to be the slavemasters of the world.
>
> Really?,I think the British empire officially ended during Suez crisis
when US
> told British rather unexpectedly (at least for the Brits) "stay at home or
> else".

Hardly, Egypt had been grantd full independence before
Suez, the intervention was over Egyptian nationlisation
of the canal. Just as the US has intervened to protect
the Panama canal

> US engagement in WWII had two goals:
> 1)Defeating Nazi Germany
> 2)Destroying British Empire
>

ISTR a little matter of revenging Pearl Harbor

> Till Suez crisis Brits hoped that US might want to forget second goal,but
US
> had other plans.

You are fantasizing again I fear

By the time of Suez, India and Pakistan were independent
and the remaining colonies were already in the
process of getting independence. The time table for
Malayan and Singaporean Independence was
agreed in 1955 for example.

Keith




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"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >Scarcely old boy. Britain is one of the 6 leading trading
> >nations, one of the 5 permanent members of the security
> >council and has of late rather discomfited France and Germany
> >by winning the support of many of the other EU nations, especially
> >the new members from eastern europe who for historical reasons are
>
> Just a question:
> was Britain a part of "original" Roman empire?.
> Every country that was part of the "original" will also be
part of
> resurrected Roman empire.period.
>

Denyav trips farther out into Lala Land.

Keith




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>given that the dollar is at al all-time low against the pound and
>getting weaker by the day, Britain must be doing something better than
>the States.

An all-time low? When I was a student at Manchester, the exchange rate
was $2.40. Not too many years earlier it was $5.00.

Exchange rates have little to do with what one country is doing better
than another. Else why does China peg the yuan to the dollar?

The dollar goes up, the dollar goes down. The pound has actually
strengthened against the euro, while the euro has strengthened less
dramatically against the dollar. It was issued a few years ago at an
exchange rate of $1.18. Now it is $1.20. Big deal, except to European
auto manufacturers who want to sell their cars in the U.S. (Britain of
course has none on offer.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
>
http://www.corax.org/revisionism/documents/19461000german_secrets.html
>
>
SNIP
> And to make matters worse, Keith 'ol boy, poor Britain won the war
yet
> could not afford to develop the massive amount of advanced
technology
> provided by defeated Germany... because the British Govt. was
indebted
> to the US for decades afterwards and whatever excellent programs the
> Brits did manage to propose were all shut down by your own MPs.
> Britain could have very well challenged the US in both aviation and
> space if they had won the war as a rich nation. Instead, lowly
Britain
> (due to German aggression- smile :) ) lost its superpower status
and
> most of her colonies postwar!

> Your nation is now reduced to a US puppet and after the EU fully
> unifies just a servant of the Continental powers- Germany and
France.
> Poetic justice for "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

Worse. The UK now has 450,000 security cameras spying on its own
citizens and will likely soon have GPS based position retransmitters
in every car tracking its people. The birth rate of native British
females is less than 1.6 per woman over a 20 year fertility
period/generation which means they are declining at over 20% per 20
years. (about 1%) while the immigraion rate is so high they will
cease to exist as a seperate ethnic group within 100 years and will be
a minority well within 50. London will be a majority Afro-carabeic
city by 2010. The policel, schools, universities now have effective
affirmitive action which discriminates against White British. An
intellectualy siffling totalitarian politicial correctness exists in
Britains major institutions such as schools, hospitals and police
whoch have been declared "institutionaly racist" and subject to
ethno-marxist stalinisation. Billions of pounds are spent in
pandering to ethnic minorities and literaly thousands of race
relations officers ply their parasitic trade in the nation.

England, though not Wales and Scotland is being devoloved and are not
represented anymore and therefore the English as an ethnie will
therefore soon disappear All sorts of Hindu and Muslims festivals are
supported by government handouts while

The shocking truth is this. Hitler would not have done worse.






>
> Rob

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...
>
<snip drivel>

>
> The shocking truth is this. Hitler would not have done worse.

Another whacko gets plonked...

Brooks

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...
>

<Lots of racist rot snipped>


>
> London will be a majority Afro-carabeic
> city by 2010.

Reality check, the last survey conducted (2002)
showed afro caribbean households to be the
same size as that of whites and further that
they made up less than 2% of the population
of the UK.

ALL ethnic minorities added together make up less
than 8% of the population of the UK.

The population of the UK is NOT declining
at 20% per annum and birthrates in the
Afro caribbean communities are generally
similar to those of the white community.

A handful of inner city London boroughs are
forecast to have ethnic minority populations
approaching 50% by 2010. These are typically
the same areas in the East end that historical
waves of immigrants such as the Hugenots,
Irish and Jews passed through. The next significant
wave of immigration is likely to be from eastern
europe , again.

I dont doubt that they'll further enliven the healthy
mongrel population of Britain. Just as did the Celts,
Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Hugenots
etc etc etc.


Keith




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George Z. Bush wrote:

> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>>Will you be emigrating to continental Europe soon?
>>
>>The Germans probably still have a warehouse full of those
>>spiffy, boffo, kewl WWII style helmets somewhere.
>>
>>Maybe they'd let you try one on!
>
> What was it that Robert said that brought on your comments about emigrating and
> helmets? Are you two guys speaking some sort of language I can't recognize?
> (^-^)))

Oh we definitely speak a different language George.

A special code we stole from the Nazis back in '45.


SMH



SMH

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "Denyav" > wrote in message
> ...
> > US engagement in WWII had two goals:
> > 1)Defeating Nazi Germany
> > 2)Destroying British Empire
> >
>
> ISTR a little matter of revenging Pearl Harbor
>
> Keith
=---

Pearl Harbor was only allowed to happen to realize above given broader
political goals.

BTW the killing of their own or allowing others to kill Americans to
realize broder political goals is a traditional American PSYOP and
usually it works.

Remember Maine
Remember Pearl Harbor
Remember 9/11

"denyav" > wrote in message
om...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Denyav" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > US engagement in WWII had two goals:
> > > 1)Defeating Nazi Germany
> > > 2)Destroying British Empire
> > >
> >
> > ISTR a little matter of revenging Pearl Harbor
> >
> > Keith
> =---
>
> Pearl Harbor was only allowed to happen to realize above given broader
> political goals.
>

Yeah right, sending the message to Pearl that started
'This message is to be considered a war warning'
is real proof of that huh ?

Sheesh what a maroon, what an ultra-maroon

Keith




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Cub Driver wrote:

> An all-time low? When I was a student at Manchester, the exchange rate
> was $2.40. Not too many years earlier it was $5.00.
>
I stand corrected - sorry.

>Yeah right, sending the message to Pearl that started
>'This message is to be considered a war warning'
>is real proof of that huh ?
>
>Sheesh what a maroon, what an ultra-maroon

The calling or personally contacting Harry Hopkins,Marshall,Admirals
Kramer,Stark Turner as well as Stimson,Knox and Hull and telling them that
Japanese fleet were underway to attack Pearl Harbor could hardly be defined as
a maaroonic act.

But the responses of above given names to this warning could easily be
classified as a maroonic act if not as a TREASON.

>Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 6/7/04 9:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"denyav" > wrote in message
om...
>> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
>> > "Denyav" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > US engagement in WWII had two goals:
>> > > 1)Defeating Nazi Germany
>> > > 2)Destroying British Empire
>> > >
>> >
>> > ISTR a little matter of revenging Pearl Harbor
>> >
>> > Keith
>> =---
>>
>> Pearl Harbor was only allowed to happen to realize above given broader
>> political goals.
>>
>
>Yeah right, sending the message to Pearl that started
>'This message is to be considered a war warning'
>is real proof of that huh ?
>
>Sheesh what a maroon, what an ultra-maroon
>
>Keith
>
>


They are just bitterly jealous that they are not Brits.. Never suffer fools
gladly.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

>From: (denyav)

>
>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
>> "Denyav" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > US engagement in WWII had two goals:
>> > 1)Defeating Nazi Germany
>> > 2)Destroying British Empire
>> >
>>
>> ISTR a little matter of revenging Pearl Harbor
>>
>> Keith
>=---
>
>Pearl Harbor was only allowed to happen to realize above given broader
>political goals.

Prove it.

>BTW the killing of their own or allowing others to kill Americans to
>realize broder political goals is a traditional American PSYOP and
>usually it works.
>
>Remember Maine

The Maine explosion was known at the time to have been a coal bunker explosion
not a mine or act of aggression.

>Remember Pearl Harbor
>Remember 9/11

Your theory only holds water if the U.S. had lead the agressors to believe the
attack would be welcome. I defy you to prove this was the case.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

>Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>From: Darrell Earnshaw
>Date: 6/7/04 9:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Cub Driver wrote:
>
>> An all-time low? When I was a student at Manchester, the exchange rate
>> was $2.40. Not too many years earlier it was $5.00.
>>
>I stand corrected - sorry.
>


It was $5.00 all through WW II.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> <Lots of racist rot snipped>
>
>
> >
> > London will be a majority Afro-carabeic
> > city by 2010.
>
> Reality check, the last survey conducted (2002)
> showed afro caribbean households to be the
> same size as that of whites and further that
> they made up less than 2% of the population
> of the UK.
>
> ALL ethnic minorities added together make up less
> than 8% of the population of the UK.
>
> The population of the UK is NOT declining
> at 20% per annum and birthrates in the
> Afro caribbean communities are generally
> similar to those of the white community.
>
> A handful of inner city London boroughs are
> forecast to have ethnic minority populations
> approaching 50% by 2010. These are typically
> the same areas in the East end that historical
> waves of immigrants such as the Hugenots,
> Irish and Jews passed through. The next significant
> wave of immigration is likely to be from eastern
> europe , again.
>
> I dont doubt that they'll further enliven the healthy
> mongrel population of Britain. Just as did the Celts,
> Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Hugenots
> etc etc etc.

Considering how you Brits turned out after past exposures, I don't imagine it'll
do any harm. A cup o' tea will still solve all problems no matter how complex!
(^-^)))

George Z.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >Yeah right, sending the message to Pearl that started
> >'This message is to be considered a war warning'
> >is real proof of that huh ?
> >
> >Sheesh what a maroon, what an ultra-maroon
>
> The calling or personally contacting Harry Hopkins,Marshall,Admirals
> Kramer,Stark Turner as well as Stimson,Knox and Hull and telling them that
> Japanese fleet were underway to attack Pearl Harbor could hardly be
defined as
> a maaroonic act.
>

Which never happened since nobody knew this.
Please none of the 'they broke the codes' bull****.

The IJN didnt transmit the details of this operation,
it was hand carried and the fleet maintained radio silence

> But the responses of above given names to this warning could easily be
> classified as a maroonic act if not as a TREASON.
>

Fictional is the word you are reaching for.

Kimmel was fired, I really dont see him staying
silent in such a situation.

Keith

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
> >From: Darrell Earnshaw
> >Date: 6/7/04 9:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> >> An all-time low? When I was a student at Manchester, the exchange rate
> >> was $2.40. Not too many years earlier it was $5.00.
> >>
> >I stand corrected - sorry.
> >
>
>
> It was $5.00 all through WW II.
>

Which in turn led to the British slang term
'half-a-dollar' for the 2 shilling piece.

Keith

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...

>
> Considering how you Brits turned out after past exposures, I don't imagine
it'll
> do any harm. A cup o' tea will still solve all problems no matter how
complex!
> (^-^)))
>

Just so and we got the tea (along with the English national
dish of Curry) from India :)

Keith

>Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 6/7/04 12:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> Considering how you Brits turned out after past exposures, I don't imagine
>it'll
>> do any harm. A cup o' tea will still solve all problems no matter how
>complex!
>> (^-^)))
>>
>
>Just so and we got the tea (along with the English national
>dish of Curry) from India :)
>
>Keith
>


Whatever happened to bubble and squeak?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

>Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 6/7/04 12:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>> >From: Darrell Earnshaw
>> >Date: 6/7/04 9:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >Cub Driver wrote:
>> >
>> >> An all-time low? When I was a student at Manchester, the exchange rate
>> >> was $2.40. Not too many years earlier it was $5.00.
>> >>
>> >I stand corrected - sorry.
>> >
>>
>>
>> It was $5.00 all through WW II.
>>
>
>Which in turn led to the British slang term
>'half-a-dollar' for the 2 shilling piece.
>
>Keith


Ah how I miss the threpeny piece. (sigh)



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 07 Jun 2004 20:05:25 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>>Date: 6/7/04 12:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>
>>> Considering how you Brits turned out after past exposures, I don't imagine
>>it'll
>>> do any harm. A cup o' tea will still solve all problems no matter how
>>complex!
>>> (^-^)))
>>>
>>
>>Just so and we got the tea (along with the English national
>>dish of Curry) from India :)
>>
>>Keith
>>
>
>
>Whatever happened to bubble and squeak?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Or "Bangers and Mash"?????

Al Minyard

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> <Lots of racist rot snipped>
>
>
> >
> > London will be a majority Afro-carabeic
> > city by 2010.

Afro Asian City. (Asians in the UK refers to Pakistanis/Bangldeishis
etc)

According to the office for national statistics says the ethnic
minorities
now make up 27% of the population of London, That puts them firmly in
the
mainstrean category not in a minority.

According to comments from Lee Jasper, Ken Livingstone's race adviser
(see below
story from the Evening Standard, 04 September 2000).

'Whites in minority in 10 years'
by Hugh Muir

The Mayor's most senior race relations adviser has claimed that white
people in London could become a minority in the next decade.

Reacting to a controversial and disputed report that Britain might
have a non-white majority by the end of the century, Lee Jasper has
reportedly said that could occur sooner in London.

According to the Observer, Mr Jasper said: "At the moment ethnic
minorities are about 40 per cent in London. The demographics show that
white people in London will become a minority by 2010. "We could have
a majority black Britain by the turn of the century." [more]

>
> Reality check, the last survey conducted (2002)
> showed afro caribbean households to be the
> same size as that of whites and further that
> they made up less than 2% of the population
> of the UK.
>
> ALL ethnic minorities added together make up less
> than 8% of the population of the UK.

And how long did it take to achieve that?

If you surveyed that in 2004 it would be closer to 10%.

There is some data here. In the politically correct speak of Britian
it identifies what is religion as race:
http://www.irr.org.uk/statistics/population.html


>
> The population of the UK is NOT declining
> at 20% per annum and birthrates in the
> Afro caribbean communities are generally
> similar to those of the white community.

I stated that it is declining geometrically at 20% per 20 year
generation. That is approximetly 1% per year.

I doubt you have cross checked your "hunch" re fertility of Ethnic
minorities against any real data. If you know of any please refer or
cite it. Generally muslim fertility in France is 3.5 children/woman
(down from 5 a few decades ago). A difference in fertility rate of
2.0 versus 1.6 is decisive as the former is sustainable and the other
is in rapid decline.

The figure of just over 1.6 would also be quite dated and is slow to
track as of necesity it must be a survery of women over 50.



>
> A handful of inner city London boroughs are
> forecast to have ethnic minority populations
> approaching 50% by 2010.

Fiddlesticks. The Greater London area will be. You should take a
trip to your own capital.

There are plenty of credible projections that show that Whites will be
a minority within the next century. Long before then they will become
"Kuridified" ie lacking the abillity of cultural or political self
determination.

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/
In 2002 net foreign immigration was nearly 250,000 while 91,000
British citizens left the UK. If immigration continues at these levels
our population will grow by 7.6 million by 2031 - equivalent to seven
times the population of Birmingham, of which nearly 90% will be due to
immigration.

Most of the governments pronouciations are erroneus. NET migraion
into the UK is 150,000 year. Almost non of it from the enlarged EU.
http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/default.asp?menu=publications&page=publications.asp

> These are typically
> the same areas in the East end that historical
> waves of immigrants such as the Hugenots,
> Irish and Jews passed through. The next significant
> wave of immigration is likely to be from eastern
> europe , again.

You give your wilde speculations an air of empirical authority they
don't have.

>
> I dont doubt that they'll further enliven the healthy
> mongrel population of Britain. Just as did the Celts,
> Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Hugenots
> etc etc etc.

All of the above are of the same European race. They evolved in and
isolated ice age europe between 40,000-30,000 years ago without even
significant tranfer from near eastern neolithic populations. Angles,
Saxons, Jutes, Danes are all Germanics as are Normans, so are the
Huegenots (who are Northern French prostestants) and I hardly
differentiate CeltsC as any different from Germanics and infact there
were always many Celtic-Germanic tribes in Germany as described by
Roman Ethnographers. Celt-Germanic is predominantly a cultural rather
than racial distinction. Red hair was for instance a Germanic trait
as much as a celtic. All Europeans speak a similar language.

There has always been some migration to and from Britain. While people
from many countries have lived in Britain for centuries, numbers have
generally been small. The historical episodes that are well known -
the Huguenots of the 16th and17th century, the Ashkenazi Jews of the
late 19th century and others - have been demographically relatively
insignificant. Until the1950s there was no really substantial
immigration into Britain, except from Ireland, for nearly 1000 years.

- A small number of Flemings came over to work in the textile industry
in the middle ages.
- About 100,000 Huguenots arrived from France in the 17th century
- A similar number of Jews arrived in the late 19th century, joining a
population that had then reached about 30 million.
- In the 1930s about 70,000 refugees from Nazi Germany were admitted
to the UK.
- After the second world war a considerable number of East Europeans
settled in Britain rather than face Russian occupation. about
80,000displaced persons
-were recruited for temporary work.

I believe the number of Normans (Norsemen-Germanics) that settled in
Britian was probaby less than 2000 while Roman forces were completely
withdrawn when the empire fell into ethnic conflict. (Roman Soldiers
were not Permited to Marry local women)


>
>
> Keith
>
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
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>100,000 Newsgroups
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Encryption =---

Alan Minyard > wrote in
:

> Or "Bangers and Mash"?????
>

Bangers & Mash is alive and very well, thanks very much! Just add some
thick onion gravy for a meal made in heaven.

--
Regards
Drewe
"Better the pride that resides
In a citizen of the world
Than the pride that divides
When a colourful rag is unfurled"

Den wrote:

>Pearl Harbor was only allowed to happen to realize above given broader
>political goals.

Allow a major part of our fleet to be damaged or sunk, lose countless bases and
thousands of POWs and civilians in the Pacific to the Japanese, in order to do
*what* to Hitler? He declared war on us, not the other way around. Does your
statement make sense to you?

>BTW the killing of their own or allowing others to kill Americans to
>realize broder political goals is a traditional American PSYOP and
>usually it works.
>
>Remember Maine

A century old accident in a powder magazine is still providing grist for
rumor-mongers? Goebbels would be so proud.

>Remember Pearl Harbor

We do. Its been dissected and examined under thousands of literary microscopes
- and you know what? It was the Japanese that attacked us. Who knew?

>Remember 9/11

I remember it well. Not your version of it, but what really happened. People
who hated us used our open society to their advantage and made us pay greatly
for our previous freedoms. No where during that event was there any occurance
that match your criteria of Americans killing Americans for political gain.

Gordon

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

>
>
> Whatever happened to bubble and squeak?
>

Its a bit passe these days but the older generation
still cook it, my mother is an expert, and as an
ex WW2 seems to remember the Yanks all too well :)

Keith

>Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>Date: 6/7/04 4:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>>
>> Whatever happened to bubble and squeak?
>>
>
>Its a bit passe these days but the older generation
>still cook it, my mother is an expert, and as an
>ex WW2 seems to remember the Yanks all too well :)
>
>Keith


With some degree of fondness I hope.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

>Which never happened since nobody knew this.
>Please none of the 'they broke the codes' bull****.
>
>The IJN didnt transmit the details of this operation,
>it was hand carried and the fleet maintained radio silence

No,Sir almost everbody in Washington DC,but surely the names mentioned above as
all them were informed about attack by Col.Bratton and Thurman personaly.
On Nov.28 They officially informed Hull,Stimson and Knox about japanese fleets
target.They did not respond.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attack the same team intercepted and decipher the famous
message to Nomura.
Thurman took the message immediately to Adm.Kramer.He took the message but did
not do anything.
Thurman tried to contact Stark,Turner and Marshall,no avail, apparently nobody
in Washington DC wants to do something to prevent Pearl Harbor.
As last resort Thurman went directly to White House with a car driven by his
wife and wanted to speak with FDR directly.
But instead of FDR he was ablr to speak to Harry Hopkins.

So,Mr.Willshaw after Nov.28 Pearl Harbor attack was not surprise attack to
anybody in Washington DC,it was a very welcomed opportunity.
In other words,Washington was decided to make it happen for domestic politics.

>Kimmel was fired, I really dont see him staying
>silent in such a situation.

Firing is not a very heavy punishment form

>Allow a major part of our fleet to be damaged or sunk, lose countless bases
>and
>thousands of POWs and civilians in the Pacific to the Japanese, in order to
>do
>*what* to Hitler? He declared war on us, not the other way around. Does your

A small price to pay to turn a giant isolationist country into a British ally.
You can not make an omelette without breaking eggs.

>A century old accident in a powder magazine is still providing grist for
>rumor-mongers? Goebbels would be so proud.
>
Actually I forgat Ft.Sumter another US (Union) PSYOP.
Please go to your local library and check out Newspapers and Journal dated
prior to Spanish-American War.
What they all report?
Do they say"OK ,Spanians have nothing to do with Maine disaster" or,
"Remember Maine,Teach a lesson to Spain" which one?

"Remember Maine" was US battle cry before and during Spanish-US war.

It does not matter if you say hundred years later
"It was a coal explosion Spanians were not responsible for it"
This explosion has been used by US establishment to justify an empire building
war and mobilize population.
BTW its still not clear why Maine exploded only thing that we know clearly now
is that the Spanians had no role to playin her fate.

We do. Its been dissected and examined under thousands of literary
>microscopes
>- and you know what? It was the Japanese that attacked us. Who knew?

After Nov.28 almost everbody in US establishment,but they waited and made it
happen.> remember it well. Not your version of it, but what really happened.
People
>who hated us used our open society to their advantage and made us pay greatly
>for our previous freedoms. No where during that event was there any
>occurance
>that match your criteria of Americans killing Americans for political gain.
>
>Gordon

Surely you also believe that Reichstag were burned down by communist fanatics
and Polen attacked Third Reich.

>Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>From: Glenfiddich
>Date: 6/7/04 9:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 07 Jun 2004 20:05:25 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>...
>>Whatever happened to bubble and squeak?
>
>Well, my family's recipe transplanted well and is thriving
>nicely here in my Queens kitchen.
>We also put up some quite passable pickled onions.
>


All washed down with a wee dram of Glenfiddich of course. (:-> ))

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >Which never happened since nobody knew this.
> >Please none of the 'they broke the codes' bull****.
> >
> >The IJN didnt transmit the details of this operation,
> >it was hand carried and the fleet maintained radio silence
>
> No,Sir almost everbody in Washington DC,but surely the names mentioned
above as
> all them were informed about attack by Col.Bratton and Thurman personaly.
> On Nov.28 They officially informed Hull,Stimson and Knox about japanese
fleets
> target.They did not respond.


A tough trick since Japanese approval for the attack
didnt come until Dec 3rd. What happened on Nov 28th was
the decryption of the winds code message sent on Nov 19th
This spoke of breaking off diplomatic warnings.

As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
began "This is to be considered a war warning"

> On eve of Pearl Harbor attack the same team intercepted and decipher the
famous
> message to Nomura.

Which said nothing about an attack of any sort

> Thurman took the message immediately to Adm.Kramer.He took the message but
did
> not do anything.
> Thurman tried to contact Stark,Turner and Marshall,no avail, apparently
nobody
> in Washington DC wants to do something to prevent Pearl Harbor.

So which is it ?

Did he try to contact people or do nothing ?

> As last resort Thurman went directly to White House with a car driven by
his
> wife and wanted to speak with FDR directly.
> But instead of FDR he was ablr to speak to Harry Hopkins.
>

Indeed , carrying the following message

http://ibiblio.org/pha/myths/14_part.html

> So,Mr.Willshaw after Nov.28 Pearl Harbor attack was not surprise attack to
> anybody in Washington DC,it was a very welcomed opportunity.
> In other words,Washington was decided to make it happen for domestic
politics.
>

Read the actual message old boy, the most warlike statement
in the thing is

"The Japanese Government regrets to have to notify hereby the
American Government that in view of the attitude of the American
Government it cannot but consider that it is impossible to reach
an agreement through further negotiations."

Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.


> >Kimmel was fired, I really dont see him staying
> >silent in such a situation.
>
> Firing is not a very heavy punishment form

For you I'm sure thats true.

Keith




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(Krztalizer) wrote in message >...

> >Remember Maine
>
> A century old accident in a powder magazine is still providing grist for
> rumor-mongers?

Sure evil Spaniards did that.

http://www.socialstudieshelp.com/Lesson_60_Notes.htm

> Goebbels would be so proud.

He learned a lot from Hearst.

"You furnish the pictures...I'll furnish the war!"

Regards

VV

>As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
>began "This is to be considered a war warning"

They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.

>So which is it ?
>Did he try to contact people or do nothing

Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting for
Japanase to attack?

>Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.

You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT told to
their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly that
since Nov,28.
So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men.
Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of
them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up to
White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of the
target "Pearl Harbor".

>For you I'm sure thats true.
>

Put the blame on Guetenberg and also countless creators of the "
Information Age".

In message >, Keith Willshaw
> writes
>I dont doubt that they'll further enliven the healthy
>mongrel population of Britain. Just as did the Celts,
>Romans, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Hugenots
>etc etc etc.

Hybrid vigour :)

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On 08 Jun 2004 21:58:19 GMT, (Denyav) wrote:

>>As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
>>began "This is to be considered a war warning"
>
>They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.

Which is of course rubbish - everyone thought the Phillipines would be
hit - and oh look - they were, along with many other places.

So how could PH be the only possible target.period?

Peter Kemp

>Which is of course rubbish - everyone thought the Phillipines would be
>hit - and oh look - they were, along with many other places.
>
>So how could PH be the only possible target.period?
>

If you are decided to allow that to happen you can always find a way to ignore
or discredit your own military intelligence personels' professional judgement.

What else should be done to convict Washington that Pearl Harbor attack was
imminent?

Maybe Hirohito should have testified before US Congress and swear god that they
were about to attack Pearl Harbor?

I am sure even if Hirohito had appeared before Congress and officialy warned
US,FDR would still find a way to ignore the warning.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
> >began "This is to be considered a war warning"
>
> They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.
>

1) They didnt

2) It clearly wasnt since bothWake and the Phillipines
were attacked as expected

> >So which is it ?
> >Did he try to contact people or do nothing
>
> Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting
for
> Japanase to attack?
>

Alerted yes
Ready no

Thats why Kimmel and Short were fired.
Halsey on the other hand had a full CAP up,
all his scouts out and had told Kimmel that
if he saw as much as a Sampan he'd sink it.

> >Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.
>
> You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT
told to
> their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly
that
> since Nov,28.

They send a message to Pearl Harbor on Nov 28th which began
"This is to be considered a war warning"

This message instructed the commanders at Pearl
to prepare for war, they failed to do so and were
fired.

> So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men.

Cite please, the Japanese navy didnt get final
approval until Nov 3

> Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of
> them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up
to
> White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of
the
> target "Pearl Harbor".
>

No he didnt, he went to the White House with the 14th
part of the Japanese message which contained no
atatck plans at all, not even a declaration of war in fact.

> >For you I'm sure thats true.
> >
>
> Put the blame on Guetenberg and also countless creators of the "
> Information Age".

No just liars.

Keith




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>1) They didnt
>

This is the whole point .according to the Government they did not,according to
the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting they
discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
But of course White House denies even this meeting!.

>Thats why Kimmel and Short were fired.
>Halsey on the other hand had a full CAP up,
>all his scouts out and had told Kimmel that
>if he saw as much as a Sampan he'd sink it.

>This message instructed the commanders at Pearl
>to prepare for war, they failed to do so and were
>fired.
>
They needed scapegoats to cover their acts otherwise you might be forced to
think the unthinkable,namely the bringing FDR and Marshall to the Justice for
treason.
As far as I know even US Congress found Kimmel at no fault and accepted
revisionistic version of events,but its ,like saying now "Spain had nothing to
with Maine",namely too late .
The luring Japanase to attack Pearl Harbor,in other words "Pearl Harbor trap"
worked well.
I couple of Military intelligence officers could have ruined eveything but they
were not allowed to do so.

>No he didnt, he went to the White House with the 14th
>part of the Japanese message which contained no
>atatck plans at all, not even a declaration of war in fact.

Yeah right!.

>No just liars.

Iraqi WMDs for example?

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >1) They didnt
> >
>
> This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
not,according to
> the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
> On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
they
> discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
> But of course White House denies even this meeting!.
>

A sekrit meeting with no evidence of course

LOL

> >Thats why Kimmel and Short were fired.
> >Halsey on the other hand had a full CAP up,
> >all his scouts out and had told Kimmel that
> >if he saw as much as a Sampan he'd sink it.
>
> >This message instructed the commanders at Pearl
> >to prepare for war, they failed to do so and were
> >fired.
> >
> They needed scapegoats to cover their acts otherwise you might be forced
to
> think the unthinkable,namely the bringing FDR and Marshall to the Justice
for
> treason.
> As far as I know even US Congress found Kimmel at no fault and accepted
> revisionistic version of events,but its ,like saying now "Spain had
nothing to
> with Maine",namely too late .

Incorrect, the findings of the 3 congressional investigations
are a matter of record.


> The luring Japanase to attack Pearl Harbor,in other words "Pearl Harbor
trap"
> worked well.
> I couple of Military intelligence officers could have ruined eveything but
they
> were not allowed to do so.
>
> >No he didnt, he went to the White House with the 14th
> >part of the Japanese message which contained no
> >atatck plans at all, not even a declaration of war in fact.
>
> Yeah right!.
>
> >No just liars.
>
> Iraqi WMDs for example?
>
>

Nice attempt to change the subject but you've
just proved how difficult cover up's really are.

Keith




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"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
> >From: "Keith Willshaw"
> >Date: 6/7/04 4:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Whatever happened to bubble and squeak?
> >>
> >
> >Its a bit passe these days but the older generation
> >still cook it, my mother is an expert, and as an
> >ex WW2 seems to remember the Yanks all too well :)
> >
> >Keith
>
>
> With some degree of fondness I hope.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

They still remember them fondly in New Zealand. This is from
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/Gallery/brief/yankee-girl.html

"New Zealand women were used to men who did not pay too much attention to
female needs. In pre-war New Zealand, society had been highly segregated by
gender. Many men felt easier in the company of the boys from the scrum or
their mates in the bar. The visitors, however, had a charm which flattered.
They doffed their hats, were openly appreciative of good looks, were
concerned about a woman's comfort. Their talk had an optimism and easy
confidence that were attractive. How pleasant was that phrase which flowed
from their lips, 'Thank you, Ma'am'. It was not surprising that many Kiwi
girls found themselves falling in love."

Joe




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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>Incorrect, the findings of the 3 congressional investigations
>are a matter of record.
>

As no US president would sign these findings of Congress.(Even if I were the
President I would not sign it.period.
If you officially accept the fact that FDR and Washington establishment
allowed the slaughtering of Americans in Pearl Harbor for the sake of long term
national interests,every action of US establisment become suspicious.
And more importantly no US Administration and agency would be able to conduct
"vaccination" operations involving the deaths of US citizens in the future even
if they were in long term interests of US.
>Nice attempt to change the subject but you've
>just proved how difficult cover up's really are.

WMD issue is not the first lie of our "Great Leaders" to the public and it wont
be the last either.
But in information age lies do not last for forever.

>From: (Denyav)

>
>>Incorrect, the findings of the 3 congressional investigations
>>are a matter of record.
>>
>
>As no US president would sign these findings of Congress.(Even if I were the
>President I would not sign it.period.

Presidents don't sign off on Congressional "findings."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >Incorrect, the findings of the 3 congressional investigations
> >are a matter of record.
> >
>
> As no US president would sign these findings of Congress.(Even if I were
the
> President I would not sign it.period.

You wouldnt be asked to - period.

Keith

>Presidents don't sign off on Congressional "findings."

Actually Congress passed a law and recommed exonoration of Kimmel
This law was the result of the Congressional "findings".
As far as I know Administration(s) is still dragging its feet.

This will probably appear in the wrong place thanks to a buggy news server.

Denyav wrote in message >...
>>As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
>>began "This is to be considered a war warning"
>
>They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.

The war warnings did not mention Pearl Harbor as the target,

The War warning sent to Pearl on 26 November, to the Army,

"Negotiations with Japanese appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese
Government might come back and offer to continue. Japanese future
action unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If
hostilities cannot, repeat can not, be avoided the U. S. desires that
Japan commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not,
be construed as restricting you to a course of action at might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to Japanese hostile action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem
necessary but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat
not, to alarm the civil population or disclose intent. Report measures
taken. Should hostilities occur, you will carry out task signed in Rainbow
Five as far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers. "

To the navy,

"Consider this dispatch a war warning. The negotiations with Japan in
an effort to stabilize conditions in the Pacific have ended. Japan is
expected to make aggressive move within the next few days. An
amphibious expedition against either the Philippines, Thai, or Kra
Peninsula or possibly Borneo is indicated by the number and equipment
of Japanese troops and the organization of their naval task forces. You
will execute a defensive deployment in preparation for carrying out the
tasks assigned in WPL-46 only. Guam, Samoa and Continental Districts
have been directed to take appropriate measures against sabotage. A
similar warning is being sent by the War Department. Inform naval district
and Army authorities. British to be informed by Spenavo."

The navy received a copy of the army message on 28 November.

Strategy and Command, the first two years by Louis Morton, (US Army
in WWII, War in the Pacific series)

page 119,

"In view of the seriousness of the situation, the Army and Navy chiefs
felt that commanders in the Pacific should be warned immediately.
Already, the Navy had sent out word on the 24th-to be passed on to
the Army commanders-that prospects for an agreement with Japan
were slight and that Japanese troop movements indicated that "a
surprise aggressive movement in any direction, including attack on
Philippines or Guam" was a possibility. [37] Now, on the 27th,
Stimson asked General Gerow whether the Army should not send a
warning. Gerow showed him the Navy message of the 24th, but this
failed to satisfy Stimson who observed that the President wanted a
warning message sent to the Philippines. As a result, a fresh warning,
considered a "final alert," was sent to Hawaii, the Philippines, Panama,
and San Francisco. The commander of each of these garrisons was
told of the status of the negotiations with Japan, the imminence of
hostilities, and the desirability of having Japan commit the "first overt
act." Each was instructed to "undertake such reconnaissance and other
measures" as he thought necessary and to carry out the tasks assigned
in the war plan if hostilities occurred. With the exception of MacArthur,
each of the commanders was also warned not to alarm the civilian
population or to "disclose intent." At the same time G-2 of the War
Department sent an additional and briefer message to Hawaii and
Panama, but not to the Philippines, warning against subversive activities."

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/70-7_04.htm

has the text on line, in this case on page 117. Strange as it might seem
the army basically sent the same message to all its Pacific commands.

>>So which is it ?
>>Did he try to contact people or do nothing
>
>Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting for
>Japanase to attack?

The units were alerted but history showed not to the extent they
needed to be.

>>Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.
>
>You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT told to
>their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly that
>since Nov,28.

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.

Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.

It contains the cables, including decode dates, the transcripts
of bugged Japan-US phone calls and state department assessments
of the various meetings.

There is a project at Purdue University to put the above books into
electronic form with an index, I am unsure about its current status.

See also

Author: Komatsu, Keiichiro.
Title: Origins of the Pacific War and the importance of 'magic'.
Publisher: New York : St. Martin's Press, 1999.

Where as part of the work the author looks at the problems with translating
Japanese into English and what sort of effects mistranslations had.

>So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men.

No, the US intelligence system never predicted the attack on Pearl.
Some in US Army intelligence did pick up the "things are automatically
going to happen" message and then predicted the Japanese would
begin the war on the first Sunday after the deadline, that is 30 November
1941. This did not help the credibility of later predictions.

>Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of
>them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up to
>White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of the
>target "Pearl Harbor".

Which work of fiction states this?

The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor
movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan
Aykroyd in disguise with false ID.

See for example, http://www.epinions.com/content_68513926788

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email

>Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
>Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
>the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
>Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.
>

Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more than
what we already know.

Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and to
challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There were
several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend himself
aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to
conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period.
Kimmels defense were basically "FDR-Stimson-Marshall trio wanted it happen and
made it happen by witholding information that was known in Washington and
London.

All "official" facts were known to panelists but they still accepted Kimmels
version.

If one entity becomes evidence collector ,DA,police,judge,jury and executioner
the evidence that they present becomes irrelevant.

>The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor
>movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan
>Aykroyd in disguise with false ID.
>
Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real characters
moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers of the
movie.

>There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
>people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
>were not watching the IJN.

Well,we are talking about pre-CIA even pre-OSS era,if you dont count FBI,they
were nations only intel agency,
BTW Adm.Kramer was Thurmans real life superior too.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
> >Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
> >the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
> >Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.
> >
>
> Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more
than
> what we already know.
>
> Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and
to
> challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There
were
> several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend
himself
> aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to
> conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period.


No they didnt - period
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/congress/part_5.html

<Quote>
The story of Admiral Kimmel's administration of the Pacific Fleet and
supervision of the Fourteenth Naval District as well as General Short's
administration of the Hawaiian Department in the critical days before
December 7 is the epitome of worthy plans and purposes which were never
implemented. The job of an administrator is only half completed upon the
issuance of an order; it is discharged when he determines the order has
been executed.
</Quote>

Keith

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 6/9/2004 10:23 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Presidents don't sign off on Congressional "findings."
>
>Actually Congress passed a law and recommed exonoration of Kimmel
>This law was the result of the Congressional "findings".
>As far as I know Administration(s) is still dragging its feet.

But that's not what you said. Please keep your stories straight.

Now what bill was passed to clear Kimmel? Who presented it in the Senate and
who presented it in the House? When was this done?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

>No they didnt - period
>http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/congress/part_5.html
>

Mr.Willshaw you keep offering old documents and/or monkey court archieves as
evidence.
I wonder if you are aware that US Congress passed a resolution in 1999 and
requested full exonoration of Kimmel.
You are still trying to stick old documents that were produced and used by the
establisment to cover up their activites.

But times are changed now not many are taking offical evidences given in old
documents as evidences at all.

Many things that you say "did not happen" is (like secret White House meeting
in the eve of Pearl Harbor attack and discussion of Attack) DID happen
according to sworn testimonies of the Officers.

So basically you are telling everyone "dont believe them,believe only to our
official version".Heck even Members of Congress do not buy it anymore.

Truth is Mr.Willshaw FDR promised nation not to enter WWII unless attacked and
he kept his promise.

>Now what bill was passed to clear Kimmel? Who presented it in the Senate and
>who presented it in the House? When was this done?
>

Bill passed in 1999.
I got to check for the sponsors.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...

> I wonder if you are aware that US Congress passed a resolution in 1999 and
> requested full exonoration of Kimmel.

Just to set the record straight, it wasn't a resolution.....it was in May 2000,
and it was an amendment to the 2001 Defense Bill that requested that both Adm
Kimmel and Gen. Short be advanced posthumously on the promotion list to their
highest respective grades in which they had served. It was passed unanimously,
but President Clinton declined to sign it. It was again presented the following
year, but President Bush also declined to sign it. No reason was given in both
cases.

George Z.

>Just to set the record straight, it wasn't a resolution.....it was in May
>2000,
>and it was an amendment to the 2001 Defense Bill that requested that both Adm
>Kimmel and Gen. Short be advanced posthumously on the promotion list to their

>ighest respective grades in which they had served. It was passed
>unanimously,
>but President Clinton declined to sign it. It was again presented the
>following
>year, but President Bush also declined to sign it. No reason was given in
>both
>cases.
>
>George Z.

Thanks for correction,I thought it was in 1999.
But as you correctly stated no president ever signed it and I think no
president will ever sign it.
Even no president gave reason for refusal,the reason is very obvious.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >The empire was an idea who's time had past, Britains
> >didnt want to be the slavemasters of the world.
>
> Really?,I think the British empire officially ended during Suez crisis
when US
> told British rather unexpectedly (at least for the Brits) "stay at home or
> else".
> US engagement in WWII had two goals:
> 1)Defeating Nazi Germany
> 2)Destroying British Empire
>
> Till Suez crisis Brits hoped that US might want to forget second goal,but
US
> had other plans.

US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a declaration
of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by
Germany.

Please read some history.

>US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a declaration
>of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by
>Germany.
>

1)If you read some history,you must know that FDR was very eager for US
engagement.
2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the nation not
enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic politics)

A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements=The Pearl Harbor trap

Pearl Harbor was only one of US (Union) vaccination operations.
Short history of US (Union) is full of such operations ,like
Ft.Sumter,Maine,Pearl Harbor,9/11 you name it.

If Hitler'd won the war , Nazi version of Reichstag fire would be the official
version.period.

Reading history from the books is by no means enough,one must learn to "read"
events themselves.

Denyav wrote in message >...

Firstly part of my deleted text,

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
be attacked.

>>Title: The "Magic" background of Pearl Harbor.
>>Publisher: [Washington] : Dept. of Defence, U.S.A. : for sale by
>>the Supt. of Docs., U.S. Govt. Print. Off., [1978]
>>Description: 5 v. in 8 : maps (on lining paper) ; 27 cm.
>
>Pardon me,but but by repeating official stories we cannot learn much more than
>what we already know.

Let us see the claim what the war warning messages contained about
Pearl Harbor is deleted, along with the actual messages themselves,
since the truth destroys the claim. Now comes the decision to delete
the transcripts of the Japanese messages, since the claimed "attack
Pearl Harbor" message does not exist the actual record needs to be
deleted as well.

More deleted text,

"It contains the cables, including decode dates, the transcripts
of bugged Japan-US phone calls and state department assessments
of the various meetings.

There is a project at Purdue University to put the above books into
electronic form with an index, I am unsure about its current status.

See also

Author: Komatsu, Keiichiro.
Title: Origins of the Pacific War and the importance of 'magic'.
Publisher: New York : St. Martin's Press, 1999.

Where as part of the work the author looks at the problems with translating
Japanese into English and what sort of effects mistranslations had."

I suggest reading the messages, they tell you lots, things like the
maps of Panama that were so good a courier was to take them to
Japan. The ships in harbour messages from the other ports, not
just Hawaii and so on.

>Kimmel and/or his descendants were given chance to defend themselves and to
>challenge to official version only TWICE,one Navy investigation (There were
>several Navy investigations but in only one he was allowed to defend himself
>aganist charges !!!) the other was Congressional and both of them came to
>conclusion that Kimmel should be exhonorated.period.

Try again, the Congressional investigation found against Kimmel.
The navy investigation found for him. By the way investigations
are about deciding charges, trials are for defending charges.

1) Roberts Commission, 1941/42 found against Kimmel and Short
2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting
3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow.
4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel.
5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote
a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the
contributors to the defeat list.)
6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access,
no report published.
7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents
being destroyed, found this not to be the case.
8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty
of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty.

>Kimmels defense were basically "FDR-Stimson-Marshall trio wanted it
>happen and made it happen by witholding information that was known in
>Washington and London.

Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen.

>All "official" facts were known to panelists but they still accepted Kimmels
>version.
>
>If one entity becomes evidence collector ,DA,police,judge,jury and executioner
>the evidence that they present becomes irrelevant.

I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair.

>>The Thurman knew it line appears to be part of the Pearl Harbor
>>movie plot. Presumably the system noticed it was really Dan
>>Aykroyd in disguise with false ID.

See for example, http://www.epinions.com/content_68513926788

>Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real characters
>moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers of the
>movie.

I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message
the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were
with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later?

Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people
did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage.

Alternatively Hollywood movies said to be fiction can be taken as the
truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt.
John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches
of the US military?

It sums up the "evidence" quite well when a Hollywood entertainment
product is the source of truth.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

>The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
>attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
>be attacked.
>

Really? Now two quotas from "recent" law the requesting exonoration of Kimmel:
1)"Numerous investigations following the attack on Pearl Harbor have documented
that Adm.Kimmel and Lt.Gen.Short were not provided neccesary and critical
intelligence that was available, that was foretold of war with Japan,that
warned of imminent attack,and that would have alerted them to prepare for the
attack,including such essential communiques as the Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot
message of Sep.24,1941 and the message sent from IJ Foreign ministry to
Japanase Ambassador in US from Dec 6 to 7 1941,known as fourteen part message".
2)"On July 1997 Adm.Richardson USN (Ret) responded to Dorn report with his own
study which confirmed the findings of the Naval Court of Inquiry and and Army
Pearl Harbor Board of Investigations and established ,among other facts,that
the war effert in 1941 was undermined by a restrictive distrubution policy,and
the degree to which the commanders of US forces in Hawai were not alerted
about impending attack was directly attributable to the witholding of
intelligence from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short".>) Roberts Commission, 1941/42
found against Kimmel and Short
>2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting
>3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow.
>4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel.
>5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote
>a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the
>contributors to the defeat list.)
>6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access,
>no report published.
>7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents
>being destroyed, found this not to be the case.
>8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty
>of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty.
>
In in Nr.4 of this list he was allowed to defend himself,Court exhonorated
him,BUT findings were kept secret.period.
>aid to be fiction can be taken as the
>truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt.
>John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches
>of the US military?

Dont underestimate Holywood,Its nations premier quasi-governmental PSYOP
organization.
For more info check out:
"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a
declaration
> >of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by
> >Germany.
> >
>
> 1)If you read some history,you must know that FDR was very eager for US
> engagement.
> 2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the nation
not
> enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic politics)
>
> A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements=The Pearl Harbor
trap

and so you head off into the land of the lunatics.

>
> Pearl Harbor was only one of US (Union) vaccination operations.
> Short history of US (Union) is full of such operations ,like
> Ft.Sumter,Maine,Pearl Harbor,9/11 you name it.
>
> If Hitler'd won the war , Nazi version of Reichstag fire would be the
official
> version.period.
>
> Reading history from the books is by no means enough,one must learn to
"read"
> events themselves.

Or to put another way, paranoid dip****s like yourself learn to "read"
anything that matches your delusions into being "truth".

What an "interesting" world you must inhabit, where your totally unsupported
opinion = "truth".

The other name for that condition is "insanity".

>Subject: Re: For Keith Willshaw...
>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 6/10/2004 9:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a declaration
>>of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by
>>Germany.
>>
>
>1)If you read some history,you must know that FDR was very eager for US
>engagement.
>2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the nation
>not
>enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic politics)
>
>A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements=The Pearl Harbor trap
>
>Pearl Harbor was only one of US (Union) vaccination operations.
>Short history of US (Union) is full of such operations ,like
>Ft.Sumter,Maine,Pearl Harbor,9/11 you name it.
>
>If Hitler'd won the war , Nazi version of Reichstag fire would be the
>official
>version.period.etter yet,haave been there.
>
>Reading history from the books is by no means enough,one must learn to "read"
>events themselves.
>
Or better yet,have been there.

>Or better yet,have been there.
>

Right.

>and so you head off into the land of the lunatics.
>

Do you really think that you can supress the truth for forever by resorting to
Ad Hominem attacks?>Or to put another way, paranoid dip****s like yourself
learn to "read"
>anything that matches your delusions into being "truth".
>
>What an "interesting" world you must inhabit, where your totally unsupported
>opinion = "truth".
>
>The other name for that condition is "insanity".

Your nervousness is understandable and fully justified.

>From: (Denyav)

>
>>The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
>>attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
>>be attacked.
>>
>
>Really? Now two quotas from "recent" law the requesting exonoration of
>Kimmel:

What "law?" When was it passed? Which president signed it into"law?"

To simplify it for you: a bill passed by Congress doesn't become law until it
is signed by the President.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

>To simplify it for you: a bill passed by Congress doesn't become law until it
>is signed by the President.
>

As George Z. clarified,executive Branch refused and still refuses to sign it
and will NEVER sign it (even if the president wants to sign it),which is alone
an indicator that much more than exonoration of two individuals are in the
line.

In article >,
on 08 Jun 2004 03:51:31 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >Which never happened since nobody knew this.
> >Please none of the 'they broke the codes' bull****.
> >
> >The IJN didnt transmit the details of this operation,
> >it was hand carried and the fleet maintained radio silence
>
> No,Sir almost everbody in Washington DC,but surely the names mentioned above as
> all them were informed about attack by Col.Bratton and Thurman personaly.
> On Nov.28 They officially informed Hull,Stimson and Knox about japanese fleets
> target.They did not respond.

How could they do this when they didn't know that the Japanese Carriers were
at sea ?

> On eve of Pearl Harbor attack the same team intercepted and decipher the famous
> message to Nomura.

Which, if you have read it you would know, has no reference to any target at
all.

> Thurman took the message immediately to Adm.Kramer.He took the message but did
> not do anything.

What would he do with a message implying that Japan was breaking off
negotiations ?

> Thurman tried to contact Stark,Turner and Marshall,no avail, apparently nobody
> in Washington DC wants to do something to prevent Pearl Harbor.

Wait, didn't you just say Thurman didn't do anything with the message ?

> As last resort Thurman went directly to White House with a car driven by his
> wife and wanted to speak with FDR directly.
> But instead of FDR he was ablr to speak to Harry Hopkins.
>
> So,Mr.Willshaw after Nov.28 Pearl Harbor attack was not surprise attack to
> anybody in Washington DC,it was a very welcomed opportunity.
> In other words,Washington was decided to make it happen for domestic politics.
>
> >Kimmel was fired, I really dont see him staying
> >silent in such a situation.
>
> Firing is not a very heavy punishment form

Have you actually READ any of the messages ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 08 Jun 2004 21:58:19 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >As a result Kimmel and Short were sent a message that
> >began "This is to be considered a war warning"
>
> They also added that Pearl Harbor was only possible target.period.

Bullcrap

It did no such thing and to state otherwise is dishonest.

You have proven you havn't read the war warning that was sent on 28 Nov 1941

>
> >So which is it ?
> >Did he try to contact people or do nothing
>
> Do you think that Navy and Army units in Pasific were alerted and waiting for
> Japanase to attack?

They had been givin warning on 28 Nov.


> >Hardly a blueprint of the Pearl Harbor attack plan.
>
> You could only say that if officers of US military intelligence had NOT told to
> their superiors cleary "Target is Pearl Harbor" but they did say exactly that
> since Nov,28.

When and where did they do so ?

> So since Nov,28 they knew the target thanks to work of a few men.
> Since their superiors did not respond to their warnings one of
> them,Thurman,sidestepped the line of command and personaly went all way up to
> White House,with very clear warning of japanase attack with the name of the
> target "Pearl Harbor".

Reprinting a lie does not make it so. The 14 part message had no referance
to any target.



> >For you I'm sure thats true.
> >
>
> Put the blame on Guetenberg and also countless creators of the "
> Information Age".

Perhaps you should try reading some and come back ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 11 Jun 2004 04:53:45 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >US engagement in WW2 was in response to an attack just before a declaration
> >of war by Japan and another attack just after a declaration of war by
> >Germany.
> >
>
> 1)If you read some history,you must know that FDR was very eager for US
> engagement.
> 2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the nation not
> enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic politics)
>
> A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements=The Pearl Harbor trap
>

The hole in your argument is a ship called the USS Ruben James.

Go look her up and get back to us.


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 10 Jun 2004 06:05:02 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

>
> Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real characters
> moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers of the
> movie.

Are you basing your entire argument on the movie "Pearl Harbor" ???



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 10 Jun 2004 15:33:20 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >Now what bill was passed to clear Kimmel? Who presented it in the Senate and
> >who presented it in the House? When was this done?
> >
>
> Bill passed in 1999.
> I got to check for the sponsors.
>


Not holding my breath waiting for you to get back to us with them either...

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >1) They didnt
> >
>
> This is the whole point .according to the Government they did not,according to
> the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
> On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting they
> discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
> But of course White House denies even this meeting!.

Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"Tank Fixer" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> on 10 Jun 2004 06:05:02 GMT,
> Denyav attempted to say .....
>
> >
> > Military Intelligence Characters of this movie were based on real
characters
> > moreover they and/or their relatives were interviewed by the the makers
of the
> > movie.
>
> Are you basing your entire argument on the movie "Pearl Harbor" ???

Hie entire *life* seems to be based on fictional events.

Pete

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >and so you head off into the land of the lunatics.
> >
>
> Do you really think that you can supress the truth for forever by
resorting to
> Ad Hominem attacks?

The truth is already well known, and I like insulting the insane. call it a
foible.


>Or to put another way, paranoid dip****s like yourself
> learn to "read"
> >anything that matches your delusions into being "truth".
> >
> >What an "interesting" world you must inhabit, where your totally
unsupported
> >opinion = "truth".
> >
> >The other name for that condition is "insanity".
>
> Your nervousness is understandable and fully justified.

Nervousness that you are insane? - I find it amusing, not scary.

"Tank Fixer" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
> Denyav attempted to say .....
>
> > >1) They didnt
> > >
> >
> > This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
not,according to
> > the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
> > On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
they
> > discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
> > But of course White House denies even this meeting!.
>
> Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?

In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.

>In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
>evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.

Apparently those lunatic conspirators somehow managed to convince even the
members of Congress.

This kind of accusations are usually the last line of defense for those who
want the things that were covered up,remain also covered up.

>From: (Denyav)
>Date: 6/11/2004 7:50 PM Central
>
>>In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
>>evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.
>
>Apparently those lunatic conspirators somehow managed to convince even the
>members of Congress.
>
More likely they were trying to do a humane service to Kimmel's family.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

>The truth is already well known, and I like insulting the insane. call it a
>foible.

Whose truth?

Those who favor the reopening Pearl Harbor case are in majority today.

As far as I know Sacco&Venzetti too were convicted according to the "truth that
was very well known".

>Nervousness that you are insane? - I find it amusing, not scary.

Glad to hear that.

>More likely they were trying to do a humane service to Kimmel's family.

Really? Bill text was too strongly worded for a such humane service and
included several referrals to various documents that charged FDR adm.with
conspiracy and that was the reason why no US president dared to sign it and no
US president will ever dare to sign it.
Its obvious if Kimmel exonorated,next step will be the reopening of Pearl
Harbor case,so the establlishment will prevent this no matter what.

On 12 Jun 2004 01:01:35 GMT, (Denyav) wrote:

>>The truth is already well known, and I like insulting the insane. call it a
>>foible.
>
>Whose truth?
>
>Those who favor the reopening Pearl Harbor case are in majority today.

Really? Can you provide a cite for that? Or is it contained in a scret
document suppressed by the guvmint?

Peter Kemp

In article >,
on 12 Jun 2004 01:01:35 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >The truth is already well known, and I like insulting the insane. call it a
> >foible.
>
> Whose truth?
>
> Those who favor the reopening Pearl Harbor case are in majority today.

In which alternate reality ?

Or is it just all those voices ?

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 12 Jun 2004 01:16:57 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >More likely they were trying to do a humane service to Kimmel's family.
>
> Really? Bill text was too strongly worded for a such humane service and
> included several referrals to various documents that charged FDR adm.with
> conspiracy and that was the reason why no US president dared to sign it and no
> US president will ever dare to sign it.
> Its obvious if Kimmel exonorated,next step will be the reopening of Pearl
> Harbor case,so the establlishment will prevent this no matter what.

OH MY GOD your right, and YOU know the truth.

Yo had better go into hiding ASAP my friend, or the CABAL will track you
down and you might suffer a suicide....



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 12 Jun 2004 00:50:33 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
> >evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.
>
> Apparently those lunatic conspirators somehow managed to convince even the
> members of Congress.

You give members of congress way too much credit



> This kind of accusations are usually the last line of defense for those who
> want the things that were covered up,remain also covered up.




--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:43:43 +1000,
L'acrobat attempted to say .....

>
> "Tank Fixer" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > In article >,
> > on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
> > Denyav attempted to say .....
> >
> > > >1) They didnt
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
> not,according to
> > > the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
> > > On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
> they
> > > discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
> > > But of course White House denies even this meeting!.
> >
> > Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?
>
> In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
> evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.
>

I forgot that one.
And that lack of evidence is also proof of the conspiracy.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

>In which alternate reality

1)Ft.Sumter
2)USS Maine
3)Pearl Harbor
4)9/11

This kind of operations should be a thing of the past,but you can not prevent
the recurrence of such events by covering them up.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
> >evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.
>
> Apparently those lunatic conspirators somehow managed to convince even
the
> members of Congress.

Or the fact that it would have no real world impact and would be seen as
being nice to the next of kin made it seem reasonable.

>
> This kind of accusations are usually the last line of defense for those
who
> want the things that were covered up,remain also covered up.

The problem you run into is that I have no stake at all in the Pearl Harbour
issue. I just like poking fun at mad people.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >The truth is already well known, and I like insulting the insane. call it
a
> >foible.
>
> Whose truth?
>
> Those who favor the reopening Pearl Harbor case are in majority today.
>

And the "figures" for that come from another of your "truths" do they?

>Or the fact that it would have no real world impact and would be seen as
>being nice to the next of kin made it seem reasonable.

"Courtesy" laws are usually rubber stamped by presidents,not refused for
forever.


>The problem you run into is that I have no stake at all in the Pearl Harbour
>issue. I just like poking fun at mad people.

"Standardized Minds" could not even qualify as "mad people".

Cheers.

Denyav wrote in message >...

Firstly part of my deleted text,

There was no Pearl Harbor warning delivered to the US and the last
people to know of one would have been the army intelligence, they
were not watching the IJN.

>>The diplomatic cables give no warning on any of the Japanese
>>attacks, only that there was a high probability someone would
>>be attacked.
>
>Really? Now two quotas from "recent" law the requesting exonoration of Kimmel:

There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
secret sign and so on.

It is really quite simple, look below and know people are fitting the
evidence after the event. There was no "attack the US" message,
let alone attack a specific location, the 14 part message was not a
declaration of war, and the British and Dutch did not even receive
that message, let alone a declaration of war.

>1)"Numerous investigations following the attack on Pearl Harbor have documented
>that Adm.Kimmel and Lt.Gen.Short were not provided neccesary and critical
>intelligence that was available, that was foretold of war with Japan,that
>warned of imminent attack,and that would have alerted them to prepare for the
>attack,including such essential communiques as the Pearl Harbor Bomb Plot
>message of Sep.24,1941 and the message sent from IJ Foreign ministry to
>Japanase Ambassador in US from Dec 6 to 7 1941,known as fourteen part >message".

Congratulations on noting that after the event people could fit the pre
attack messages into the proven chain of events.

Now go back and note the key part of the 14 part message was about
having no point in further negotiations, not a declaration of war. The
timing of the note was an important factor, it fitted with first light in the
Midway/Guam area, and early morning in the Philippines.

Note by the way the grid message, the one that wanted the location as
well as the number of ships in harbour, was named bomb plot after the
attack, not before. In any case a bomb plot is the diagram of the fall
of the bombs, an after the attack report.

Simply put the US "knew" it could not immediately go to war to defend
European colonies in Asia. The Japanese military government "knew"
the best time for the US to declare war was at the start of fighting. The
Japanese had to make the decision. There were no resources needed
by the Japanese from the Philippines.

>2)"On July 1997 Adm.Richardson USN (Ret) responded to Dorn report with his own
>study which confirmed the findings of the Naval Court of Inquiry and and Army
>Pearl Harbor Board of Investigations and established ,among other facts,that
>the war effert in 1941 was undermined by a restrictive distrubution policy,and
>the degree to which the commanders of US forces in Hawai were not alerted
>about impending attack was directly attributable to the witholding of
>intelligence from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short".

Congratulations in noting the US discovered it had short changed its
field commanders. That is completely separate to the US knowing
when and where attacks would occur, plus there is still the problem of
whether the commanders would do anything. The USN had known
for years the IJN warplan was to await the USN in the eastern
Pacific, not come for the USN.

I see the claims about what investigations did what have been deleted,
like all the other claims, once the documents are produced the claims
have to be deleted.

Deleted text,

"Try again, the Congressional investigation found against Kimmel.
The navy investigation found for him. By the way investigations
are about deciding charges, trials are for defending charges."

>>1) Roberts Commission, 1941/42 found against Kimmel and Short
>>2) Hart Inquiry in 1944, mainly evidence collecting
>>3) Pearl Harbor Army Board in 1944, criticised Short, Marshall and Gerow.
>>4) Naval Court of Inquiry, exonerated Kimmel.
>>5) Clausen Investigation, 1944/45, mainly evidence gathering. (He wrote
>>a book on it and gives Kimmel and Short the highest rankings in the
>>contributors to the defeat list.)
>>6) Hewitt Inquiry, 1945, follow on to Naval court, Kimmel denied access,
>>no report published.
>>7) Clarke Investigation, 1944/45 investigation into claims of documents
>>being destroyed, found this not to be the case.
>>8) Joint Congressional Committee, 1945/46, Hawaiian commanders guilty
>>of errors of judgement, not dereliction of duty.
>>
>In in Nr.4 of this list he was allowed to defend himself,Court exhonorated
>him,BUT findings were kept secret.period.

This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message
the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were
with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later?

Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people
did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage.

Alternatively Hollywood movies said "

>>aid to be fiction can be taken as the
>>truth, so the US has Luke Skywalker hiding somewhere no doubt.
>>John Wayne won WWII almost single-handed, serving in all branches
>>of the US military?

"It sums up the "evidence" quite well when a Hollywood entertainment
product is the source of truth."

>Dont underestimate Holywood,Its nations premier quasi-governmental PSYOP
>organization.

This is good, presumably the "Pearl Harbor" movie talk of code
breaking is therefore psyops and needs to be ignored. Then again
given the movie is the advanced "proof" of code breaking maybe not.

Hollywood promotes US disinformation, except when the claim is
liked, then it is the truth, spoken by a fictional character in a movie
claimed to be fictional is no barrier. Just ignore the actual history.

>For more info check out:
>"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.

On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
at your expense.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

>For more info check out:
>>"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.
>
>On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
>of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
>The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
>and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
>and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
>at your expense.
>
>Geoffrey Sinclair
>Remove the nb for email.

I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to
find the truths.

It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
2004?.

Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the
credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman .




>There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
>turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
>is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
>secret sign and so on.

I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it
before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change.

>This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
>anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958:

"My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our
President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not
enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would
put the US in the war with the full support of American Public"


Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >In which alternate reality
>
> 1)Ft.Sumter
> 2)USS Maine
> 3)Pearl Harbor
> 4)9/11
>
> This kind of operations should be a thing of the past,but you can not
prevent
> the recurrence of such events by covering them up.


Relisting them does not equal proving them. but feel to relist them a few
more times.

Denyav twisted the electrons to say:
> 2)If you read history you must also know that that FDR promised the
> nation not enter war unless attacked (a requirement of domestic
> politics)
>
> A solution to satisfy two contradictionary requirements =
> The Pearl Harbor trap

So, if we where to accept your premise that the White House knew not only
that the Japanese where coming but also the day they would be "arriving",
why not warn Pearl Harbour? After all, if you're planning on joining a
war it's generally considered an advantage not to lose large amounts of
men and equipment on day 1!

No need to sortie the fleet if you still want a "sneak attack", just get
them placed on alert - ie: all anti-aircraft guns manned and ready and a
decent CAP (with the rest of the fighters on +5/+15) overhead.
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

>> 1)Ft.Sumter
>> 2)USS Maine
>> 3)Pearl Harbor
>> 4)9/11

>Relisting them does not equal proving them. but feel to relist them a few
>more times.

It establishes the existence of a pattern or govenment culture.

Its always easier to get an Arson suspect with prior Arson convictions
convicted than an Arson suspect without any prior convictions.

>So, if we where to accept your premise that the White House knew not only
>that the Japanese where coming but also the day they would be "arriving",
>why not warn Pearl Harbour?

Good Question,but I think Kimmel gave a very clear answer to this question
during interview in 1958.

>After all, if you're planning on joining a
>war it's generally considered an advantage not to lose large amounts of
>men and equipment on day 1!

Amounts of men and equipment lost in Pearl Harbor is very insignificant in
comparison with manpower and production resources of US,as the later
developments in war proved.

>No need to sortie the fleet if you still want a "sneak attack", just get
>them placed on alert - ie: all anti-aircraft guns manned and ready and a
>decent CAP (with the rest of the fighters on +5/+15) overhead.

Pearl Harbors shortcomings were well known,in fact during pre-attack meetings
Kimmel always maintained that only viable defense would be the keeping the
fleet in open sea and his views shared by everybody.

>From: Tank Fixer
>Date: 6/12/2004 12:22 AM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> on Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:43:43 +1000,
> L'acrobat attempted to say .....
>
>>
>> "Tank Fixer" > wrote in message
>> k.net...
>> > In article >,
>> > on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
>> > Denyav attempted to say .....
>> >
>> > > >1) They didnt
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
>> not,according to
>> > > the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
>> > > On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
>> they
>> > > discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
>> > > But of course White House denies even this meeting!.
>> >
>> > Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?
>>
>> In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
>> evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.
>>
>
>I forgot that one.
>And that lack of evidence is also proof of the conspiracy.
>

Aha, that also explains Hilary's "vast right wing conspiracy."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

>From: (Denyav)
<snip>

>It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
>2004?.
>


Oh, now I understand. You repeat the same thing many times and it becomes fact.
How stupid of me to not notice sooner.

I didn't realize Lincoln had caused the 30 or 40 years of build up to the
secession and the told The Confederates they should shoot first and Sumter was
a nice target. http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/FinalOrder/FinalOrder_intro.htm

Wow, I think you are right. The Navy blew up their own boat in Havana Harbour
in 1898 because the Spanish wouldn't cooperate and do it for them.
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq71-1.htm

I guess this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt the Kimmel's interviews were the
truth. [editor's note: this is getting deep] It would never occur to me that
Kimmel was trying to simply improve his image in the history books.

Amazing how the trend you present proves beyond any question Bush talked
Clinton into not collecting Bin Ladin when he had a chance so tha Bush could
have his war. [editor's note: forget saving your shoes, save your watch]

Now, denyev, you have proved your point [editor's note: the shovel broke] when
and where will the next trumped up attack occur?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >Or the fact that it would have no real world impact and would be seen as
> >being nice to the next of kin made it seem reasonable.
>
> "Courtesy" laws are usually rubber stamped by presidents,not refused for
> forever.

Unless of course the President sees that awarding such a "courtesy" would
have wider implications and encourage conspirowhackos like yourself.

>
>
> >The problem you run into is that I have no stake at all in the Pearl
Harbour
> >issue. I just like poking fun at mad people.
>
> "Standardized Minds" could not even qualify as "mad people".

Poor Denyav, no proof, no hope and no sanity.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >For more info check out:
> >>"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances
Saunders.
> >
> >On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
> >of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
> >The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
> >and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
> >and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
> >at your expense.
> >
> >Geoffrey Sinclair
> >Remove the nb for email.
>
> I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only
ways to
> find the truths.
>
> It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001
or
> 2004?.
>

Again, listing dates does not equal proving conspiracy.

>I didn't realize Lincoln had caused the 30 or 40 years of build up to the
>secession and the told The Confederates they should shoot first and Sumter
>was
>a nice target. http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/FinalOrder/FinalOrder_intro.htm

Read "Truth of war conspiracy of 1861" by Johnstone.
BTW Author of this book based his case solely on official records published by
US War department.

>Wow, I think you are right. The Navy blew up their own boat in Havana Harbour
>in 1898 because the Spanish wouldn't cooperate and do it for them.
>http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq71-1.htm

So whats your point?
In 1898 new empire was in need of colonies so motto was:
"Evil Spanians destroyed Maine,REMEMBER MAINE,teach evil Spanians a lesson"

Rest is history
(Of course Spanians nothing to do with Maine sinking)

>Kimmel was trying to simply improve his image in the history books.
>
For FDR&Co much more than improving their standing in history books was in
stake.

>Now, denyev, you have proved your point [editor's note: the shovel broke]
>when
>and where will the next trumped up attack occur?
>
Unfortunately,unlike previous three cases,this time it looks like that
politicians and military failed to capitalize on success of PSYOP at the start.
If whole operation crumles it does not matter if you execute a PSYOP
succesfully or not.Morever if whole operation fails the planners of such PSYOPs
are usually first to go.
Let me clarify this, for example if US had lost Spanish -American war,the
masterminds of Maine incident would be the first ones to go,not Generals or
Admirals who lost actual battles.

BTW I hope some recent high profile resignations helps you to understand what I
mean.

>Again, listing dates does not equal proving conspiracy.

If you did not understand 1861,you cannot understand 1941.
If you did not know what happened in 1898,you cannot understand what happened
in 2001.

Its an 150 years old tradition of US government.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >> 1)Ft.Sumter
> >> 2)USS Maine
> >> 3)Pearl Harbor
> >> 4)9/11
>
> >Relisting them does not equal proving them. but feel to relist them a few
> >more times.
>
> It establishes the existence of a pattern or govenment culture.

It does no such thing, note the dates - they are different govts, composed
of different people from markedly different backgrounds.


>
> Its always easier to get an Arson suspect with prior Arson convictions
> convicted than an Arson suspect without any prior convictions.
>

Except your "suspect" isn't the same person you loon.

Relist the dates again. you'll feel better.

>It does no such thing, note the dates - they are different govts, composed
>of different people from markedly different backgrounds.

You make me laugh,succesful operations set patterns.
Nobody wants to repeat failures but eveybody wants to use proven methods.(at
least till first failure),
Ourcome of 1861 operation was good,the ourcome of 1898 operation very good,the
outcome of 1941 operation was excellent.
So why not stick to proven methods

>Except your "suspect" isn't the same person you loon.
>

Maybe not same "person" but definitely the same "entity"

Denyav twisted the electrons to say:
>>So, if we where to accept your premise that the White House knew not only
>>that the Japanese where coming but also the day they would be "arriving",
>>why not warn Pearl Harbour?
> Good Question,but I think Kimmel gave a very clear answer to this question
> during interview in 1958.

You "think", but you're not sufficiently sure to actually tell us what it
was he might have said?

>>After all, if you're planning on joining a
>>war it's generally considered an advantage not to lose large amounts of
>>men and equipment on day 1!
> Amounts of men and equipment lost in Pearl Harbor is very insignificant in
> comparison with manpower and production resources of US,as the later
> developments in war proved.

How many fewer trained, and available for service, men did the USN have
through to say the beginning of February the next year? Saying that it
was insignificant next to the size of the USN in late 1944 is hardly
relevant as it would take the USN 3 years to get to that size ...

>>No need to sortie the fleet if you still want a "sneak attack", just get
>>them placed on alert - ie: all anti-aircraft guns manned and ready and a
>>decent CAP (with the rest of the fighters on +5/+15) overhead.
> Pearl Harbors shortcomings were well known,in fact during pre-attack
> meetings Kimmel always maintained that only viable defense would be
> the keeping the fleet in open sea and his views shared by everybody.

Maybe, but if you're the government and for some reason you want a sneak
attack to occur then you'll make sure that such a viewpoint is ignored.
Afterall, Pearl Harbour is only 40 feet deep and has reasonably narrow
and twisted entrances which coupled with netting should deal with the
threat from torpedo bombers and/or submarines. High-level and/or dive
bombing can thwarted by a combination of a waiting CAP followed by
anti-aircraft fire.
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...

On 13 Jun 2004 03:47:48 GMT, (Denyav) wrote:

>>I didn't realize Lincoln had caused the 30 or 40 years of build up to the
>>secession and the told The Confederates they should shoot first and Sumter
>>was
>>a nice target. http://www.tulane.edu/~latner/FinalOrder/FinalOrder_intro.htm
>
>Read "Truth of war conspiracy of 1861" by Johnstone.
>BTW Author of this book based his case solely on official records published by
>US War department.

Care to provide the ISBN? No sign of such a book on Amazon.

Peter Kemp

>Care to provide the ISBN? No sign of such a book on Amazon.

Original book by H.W.Johnstone was published in 1921.
I heard they they were going to reprint it,but I don know if its reprinted.
If not, only way to find this book is either to buy an used old one or find it
in a library.

>You "think", but you're not sufficiently sure to actually tell us what it
>was he might have said?

Here exactly what he said during 1958 interview:
"My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
that the action in Hawai might deter the Japanese from making the attack.Our
president had repeatedly assured the American People that the US would not
enter the war unless we were attacked.The Japanese attack on the Fleet would
put United States in the war with full support of the American Public".

Thats exactly what he said in 1958 interview.
I dont know what he said in Naval court that exonarated him,as the trancripts
and actual findings of this court were not released,only the conclusions of
Court were released,but its safe to assume his defense based was he said in
1958.
The decision of this court,only panel that Kimmel was allowed to present his
case and defend himself,was overturned by Forrestal and King.

If you want to learn what Kimmels relatives and experts said in more recent
Congressional hearings which paved way for the passage of a Bill exhonorating
Kimmel you might want to check out:
Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

In article >,
on 12 Jun 2004 05:51:59 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >In which alternate reality
>
> 1)Ft.Sumter
> 2)USS Maine
> 3)Pearl Harbor
> 4)9/11
>
> This kind of operations should be a thing of the past,but you can not prevent
> the recurrence of such events by covering them up.
>

You are making less and less sense.
Please try providing some proof, some ducumentation of what it is you are
trying to say.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 13 Jun 2004 04:27:50 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >It does no such thing, note the dates - they are different govts, composed
> >of different people from markedly different backgrounds.
>
> You make me laugh,succesful operations set patterns.
> Nobody wants to repeat failures but eveybody wants to use proven methods.(at
> least till first failure),
> Ourcome of 1861 operation was good,the ourcome of 1898 operation very good,the
> outcome of 1941 operation was excellent.

What super secret organization spanned that time frame and conducted the
operations ?

> So why not stick to proven methods

Why not try to lay out a coherent argument instead of ranting about some
grand conspiracy

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 12 Jun 2004 19:54:13 GMT,
B2431 attempted to say .....

> >From: Tank Fixer
> >Date: 6/12/2004 12:22 AM Central Daylight Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> > on Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:43:43 +1000,
> > L'acrobat attempted to say .....
> >
> >>
> >> "Tank Fixer" > wrote in message
> >> k.net...
> >> > In article >,
> >> > on 09 Jun 2004 15:49:02 GMT,
> >> > Denyav attempted to say .....
> >> >
> >> > > >1) They didnt
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > This is the whole point .according to the Government they did
> >> not,according to
> >> > > the Intelligence officers they did and they did it repeately.
> >> > > On eve of Pearl Harbor attact,even during a secret White House meeting
> >> they
> >> > > discussed their Pearl Harbor specific information.
> >> > > But of course White House denies even this meeting!.
> >> >
> >> > Yet YOU know of this secret meeting ?
> >>
> >> In the world of the lunatic conspiracy nut, a total lack of supporting
> >> evidence is the most convincing evidence of all.
> >>
> >
> >I forgot that one.
> >And that lack of evidence is also proof of the conspiracy.
> >
>
> Aha, that also explains Hilary's "vast right wing conspiracy."

but, I have a card and everything !


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 12 Jun 2004 08:11:33 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >For more info check out:
> >>"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.
> >
> >On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
> >of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
> >The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
> >and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
> >and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
> >at your expense.
> >
> >Geoffrey Sinclair
> >Remove the nb for email.
>
> I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to
> find the truths.
>
> It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
> 2004?.
>
> Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the
> credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman .
>
>
>
>
> >There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
> >turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
> >is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
> >secret sign and so on.
>
> I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it
> before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change.

Try that again, in English or as close as you can get. It didn't make any
sense at all my friend.

>
> >This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
> >anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?
>
> I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958:
>
> "My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
> Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
> that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our
> President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not
> enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would
> put the US in the war with the full support of American Public"

The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.

Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
fire him.


Note he uses the word "belief"


>
> Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !.

What > no Nostradamus quotes ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

>What super secret organization spanned that time frame and conducted the
>operations ?
>
Step by step:
Who lured confederates to attack Ft.Sumter? Check out the book I referred to.

Who destroyed USS Maine and made "Remember Maine" US Battle cry?

Who lured japanese to attack Pearl Harbor?
(and eliminated the evidences about Phone conversions prior to Pearl Harbor
attack berween Churchill and FDR about Pearl Harbor attack)

Who made 9/11 happen.

Also a small addition to above list,who were the Melody guys that created high
tech (well at least for 60s) equipment that created impression that USS Maddox
was under attack?

A hint for you none of them came from another planet.

>The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.
>
>Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
>he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
>encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
>Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
>No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
>to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
>fire

Read the transcripts of the one of the congressional meetings.(I posted the
link)

According to current knowledge it is without any doubt clear that that
Washington withhold the information they knew from Hawaii.
There is a general agreement here.differences start after this point according
to government or researchers backing gov't view there is no conspiracy here
only honest mistakes,officials did not realize the importance of deciphered
messages.
Thats a big lie officials who made honest mistakes do try to hide the existence
of phone conversation with British PM lust before Pearl Harbor attack.
Truth is not only US had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbor attack but also
British.

After my noting the way my text keeps being deleted it seems a
new tactic to obscure has been created, take the time and effort
to rearrange the order of the few words of mine left in.

After all when someone wants to add words to historical documents,
use Hollywood movies as accurate sources there is not much else to do.

Denyav wrote in message >...
>>For more info check out:
>>>"Who paid the Piper? . The CIA and cultural Cold War". By Frances Saunders.
>>
>>On sale now on paranoia street no doubt. Remember folks, lack
>>of evidence is proof of two conspiracies, the original and the cover up.
>>The lack of evidence for the cover up is proof of three conspiracies,
>>and so on, head for the big conspiracy sale near you, pay your money
>>and be told what you want to here as people make themselves rich
>>at your expense.
>>
>>Geoffrey Sinclair
>>Remove the nb for email.
>
>I see,"deny everything" and "stick to official version",seem to be only ways to
>find the truths.
>
>It worked in 1861,it worked in 1898,it worked in 1941, so,why not in 2001 or
>2004?.
>
>Game is the same but audience is very different now,thats the reason why the
>credibility of US today is better than,well,used car salesman .

Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways
to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
that obscures the "real" events.

It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass
the "I like it" test and so on.

>>There was no "law" there was effectively a petition. One that was
>>turned down. Do not worry the fact the moon was in the third house
>>is also proof of the conspiracy, FDR wearing his green socks the
>>secret sign and so on.
>
>I dont know if FDR were wearing green socks but if the President had signed it
>before 9/11,it could be understood by some as a radical policy change.

http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp106&&r_n=hr945.106&sel=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. And the request was to
advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at.

Real radical policy change stuff.

>>This is quite funny, if the findings were kept secret period how would
>>anyone know Kimmel had been exonerated?

The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never
made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,

"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
people the pilots and nurse were based on as well? Found the message
the plot line was based on as well? Double checked the interviews were
with people present, not relatives reporting hearsay 60 years later?

Perhaps the fundamental reality that the US Army intelligence people
did not work on IJN codes will intrude at some stage."

>I dont know what Kimmel said in Court but he said during an interview in 1958:

Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in.

>"My belief is that Gen.Short and I were not given information available in
>Washington and were not informed of the impending attack because it was feared
>that the action in Hawai might deter Japanese from making the attack.Our
>President has repeatedly assured the American people that the US would not
>enter the war unless we were attacked .The Japanase attack on the fleet would
>put the US in the war with the full support of American Public"
>
>Sounds like he was telling the story of 9/11/2001 in 1958 !.

If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings,
his telepathy should have been enough.

By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in.

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

>Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
>there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways
>to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
>that obscures the "real" events.

US is NOT the sole source of all evil,others tried and still try similar
things,for example Reichstag fire,but the difference is that the US was and is
worlds #1 in this issue by a big margin.

>It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic
>
Who

> hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
>that obscures the "real" events.
>
>It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic
>

Lets go back,for example,to the year 1898.

What was the non "real" event?
1)Sinking of USS Maine
2)Using the event Nr.1 as a batttle cry to get popular support for an empire
building war
3)Emerging from Spanish-American war as a major power.

>enyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
>heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
>try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
>absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

Actually you dont need to be on anybodys payroll, 99,99 % of information is
available to public if you know how to find them.
>Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass
>the "I like it" test and so on.

Yeah right,for example if White House destroys phone records there is no proof
that such calls were made unless somebody on other side of Atlantic
declassifies their own records.
But you can still control damage by asserting that they were lost accidentally.

>And the request was to
>advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at.
>
>Real radical policy change stuff.
>

Check out hearing transcripts:
Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
Accusations aimed at the power center of US government not at periphery.

>The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never
>made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome.

We know that was the only panel that allowed Kimmel to defend himself,present
his own case and evidences.
We also know after considering presented evidences Court came to conclusion
that Kimmel should be exonorated.
But we dont know the actual evidences.
We also dont know why Forrestal and King overrode court decision despite the
evidence.

>On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,
>
>"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
>claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
>people the pilots and nurse were

Actually the movie completely ignored the role British intelligence which was
far more capable than US at that time.

>Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in.
>

Kimmel was in the court which he supposed to be in.This court "exhonorated"
Kimmel but the decision of Court which Kimmel supposed to be in,was overturned
by Forrestal-King duo.
>If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings,
>his telepathy should have been enough.

Kimmel surely was not a physic but US PSYOPs getting more and more like reruns
of the same movie.

>By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
>the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
>the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to

Even tough Manila received warnings that Honolulu never received,MacArthur got
defeated and humiliated and lost much more men and equipment than Kimmel and
Short.
I wonder why nobody demoted him.
I wonder

"Geoffrey Sinclair" > wrote in message
...

>
> By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
> the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
> the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
> enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
> before the attack went in.

What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA guns
and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have been
at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
come out of it looking good.

A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the courageous
actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
done nicely.

>What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
>allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA guns
>and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have been
>at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
>phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
>come out of it looking good.

Such an activity would deter Japanese from making the attack.
The goal of FDR (and Churchill) was not to deter attack but lure Japan to
attack US so that the domestic opposition to US participation could be
overcome.
Thats the reason why Washington gradually reduced the information sent to
Honolulu beginning from July 1941.
In other words Washington had a political goal and blindfolded Honolulu to
achieve this goal.

>A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
>Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the courageous
>actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
>done nicely.

It could easily be done,but it would not help FDR and Churchill as much as
shock and awe created by Japanese "surprise" attack.
Go to Http://www.ukan.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
and read the testimony of Capt.Beach.

In Plain English he says basically:
"The goal justifies the methods used to achive the goal"

In article >,
on 14 Jun 2004 05:03:47 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >What super secret organization spanned that time frame and conducted the
> >operations ?
> >
> Step by step:
> Who lured confederates to attack Ft.Sumter? Check out the book I referred to.

A 70+ year old book ?
Sure, I have time to find a copy.


> Who destroyed USS Maine and made "Remember Maine" US Battle cry?

A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines.


> Who lured japanese to attack Pearl Harbor?
> (and eliminated the evidences about Phone conversions prior to Pearl Harbor
> attack berween Churchill and FDR about Pearl Harbor attack)

Lured ?
Have you actually done any reading of the events ?
Perhaps you might try reading some of the Japanese accounts.
What phone conversation ?
There being no evidence....


>
> Who made 9/11 happen.

A bunch of fanatics

>
> Also a small addition to above list,who were the Melody guys that created high
> tech (well at least for 60s) equipment that created impression that USS Maddox
> was under attack?

Do you hear the helocopters yet ?

> A hint for you none of them came from another planet.

Are you sure ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 14 Jun 2004 05:28:55 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.
> >
> >Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
> >he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
> >encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
> >Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
> >No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
> >to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
> >fire
>
> Read the transcripts of the one of the congressional meetings.(I posted the
> link)

I have read them, apparently in greater detail than you have.
Can you answer why Adm. Halsey informed his boss, Adm Kimmel of his
intentions on sailing from PH the week prior to 7 December ?


>
> According to current knowledge it is without any doubt clear that that
> Washington withhold the information they knew from Hawaii.

No, there isn't.


> There is a general agreement here.differences start after this point according
> to government or researchers backing gov't view there is no conspiracy here
> only honest mistakes,officials did not realize the importance of deciphered
> messages.

No, there isn't.

> Thats a big lie officials who made honest mistakes do try to hide the existence
> of phone conversation with British PM lust before Pearl Harbor attack.
> Truth is not only US had prior knowledge of Pearl Harbor attack but also
> British.

But what about the Dutch ?
Did they know ?



--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

>I have read them, apparently in greater detail than you have.
>Can you answer why Adm. Halsey informed his boss, Adm Kimmel of his
>intentions on sailing from PH the week prior to 7 December ?

Actualy Kimmel sent 46 warships to open sea to the safety in late November
without notifying Washington.
When White house learned of Kimmels move Washington ordered all ships to return
to the base.
Battleships and their crews were expendable and their intended role was playing
sitting ducks.
For much more information please check out:
http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2001/06-04-2001/vol7no12_facts.htm

>But what about the Dutch ?
>Did they know ?

Yes.They knew too,check out the above link

>No, there isn't.
>

The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
"Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspitacy to
expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".

This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were witheld from
them ,but not deliberately.

This the limit that ANY government in this world could accept.
As you probably know if government,any government,accepts killing of its own
sailors and soldiers for political goals,members of any gov't might face firing
squad.

>A 70+ year old book ?
>Sure, I have time to find a copy.

Much better than new books.

>A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines.

Exact cause of explosion is still not known,offical 1898 version was a spanish
mine !.
One thing is sure it was no accident and Spanians had nothing to do with it.
Maybe Aliens masquarading as Spanians did it.

>Lured ?
>Have you actually done any reading of the events ?
>Perhaps you might try reading some of the Japanese accounts.
>What phone conversation ?
>There being no evidence....

Really,you did not even read hearing transcripts carefully

>A bunch of fanatics

Surely fanatics,but the fanatics that four intel agencies,including our
own,closely followed.
(BTW there is no intel gaps prior to 9/11)

>Do you hear the helocopters yet ?
>

Not yet but have you ever heard the name "Melody" and its ECM/ESM capabilities?

Are you sure ?

Pretty sure

Cheers.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...

> The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
> "Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
> Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
> information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or conspitacy
to
> expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".
>
> This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were witheld
from
> them ,but not deliberately.

English is your second language, isn't it.

Poor Den, still making stuff up.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >What the conspiroloons can never manage to explain is why the attack was
> >allowed to happen, the USA could have put up a heavy CAP, manned all AA
guns
> >and have already flown off a major counterstrike and still would have
been
> >at war as the attack came in, the only difference would have been in the
> >phrasing of the announcement and the fact that the US military would have
> >come out of it looking good.
>
> Such an activity would deter Japanese from making the attack.

How?

You say the US knew and where when the attack was due, all they needed to do
was prep the a/c the night before and launch 30 mins before the attack, plus
wake the sailors up early and have them man the AA guns.

Reality is not your friend, is it?

> The goal of FDR (and Churchill) was not to deter attack but lure Japan to
> attack US so that the domestic opposition to US participation could be
> overcome.

You haven't addressed why they couldn't defeat the attack yet, also you
havent explained how getting into a different war with Japan helps the USA
get into a war against Germany (or was Hitler in on the big plan too?).

> Thats the reason why Washington gradually reduced the information sent to
> Honolulu beginning from July 1941.
> In other words Washington had a political goal and blindfolded Honolulu to
> achieve this goal.

By sending a war warning?

>
> >A simple, "this morning at aprox 0600hrs the Japanese navy attacked Pearl
> >Harbour without warning, this infamous attack was defeated by the
courageous
> >actions of our Army and Navy, the United States is now at war" would have
> >done nicely.
>
> It could easily be done,but it would not help FDR and Churchill as much as
> shock and awe created by Japanese "surprise" attack.


So being IN a war by defeating a surprise attack helps your objective of
being IN a war less than being IN a war by not defeating a surprise attack
how?

> Go to Http://www.ukan.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
> and read the testimony of Capt.Beach.
>
> In Plain English he says basically:
> "The goal justifies the methods used to achive the goal"

Again you feel the need to invent what people are saying.

You really should seek medical help.

>English is your second language, isn't it.
>
>Poor Den, still making stuff up.
>

I think everbody who can read government statement can understant its meaning
easily,illiterates different story of course.

Denyav wrote in message >...
>>Ah yes the USA is the source of all evil, but wait a moment, that means
>>there will be a disinformation campaign about this, one of the best ways
>>to hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
>>that obscures the "real" events.
>
>US is NOT the sole source of all evil,others tried and still try similar
>things,for example Reichstag fire,but the difference is that the US was and is
>worlds #1 in this issue by a big margin.

To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.

Nice auto repeat of my words, helps break them up.

>>It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic
>>
>Who
>
>> hide this is to accuse the USA of being the source of all evil, since
>>that obscures the "real" events.
>>
>>It is blindingly obvious when you use this sort of logic
>
>Lets go back,for example,to the year 1898.
>
>What was the non "real" event?
>1)Sinking of USS Maine
>2)Using the event Nr.1 as a batttle cry to get popular support for an empire
>building war
>3)Emerging from Spanish-American war as a major power.

You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.

You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. Go on, fight
the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
real event, since no one else is competing.

>>enyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
>>heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
>>try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
>>absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.
>
>Actually you dont need to be on anybodys payroll, 99,99 % of information is
>available to public if you know how to find them.

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

>>Simple isn't it, remember no proof is absolute proof, truth must pass
>>the "I like it" test and so on.
>
>Yeah right,for example if White House destroys phone records there is no proof
>that such calls were made unless somebody on other side of Atlantic
>declassifies their own records.
>But you can still control damage by asserting that they were lost accidentally.

Note by the way this seems to have suddenly appeared, and just
ignore the various phone company records as well. Both British
and American.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp106&&r_n=hr945.106&sel=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

>>And the request was to
>>advance the ranks at which Kimmel and Short were retired at.
>>
>>Real radical policy change stuff.
>
>Check out hearing transcripts:
>Http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm
>Accusations aimed at the power center of US government not at periphery.

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

>>The deleted claim was the Naval Board of Inquiry report was never
>>made public. This has to be ignored, since we know the outcome.
>
>We know that was the only panel that allowed Kimmel to defend himself,present
>his own case and evidences.

It was an inquiry not a trial. And I note the change of subject, from
the claims made about the inquiry to the procedures it followed.

>We also know after considering presented evidences Court came to conclusion
>that Kimmel should be exonorated.

The inquiry released its findings in August 1945 according to the supplied
URL.

>But we dont know the actual evidences.

Presumably this means you have not bothered to look it up, it was not
in the Pearl Harbor movie.

>We also dont know why Forrestal and King overrode court decision despite the
>evidence.

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

>>On using Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,
>>
>>"I see "based on real characters", and I presume the transcripts of these
>>claimed conversations are available? I presume you have traced the
>>people the pilots and nurse were
>
>Actually the movie completely ignored the role British intelligence which was
>far more capable than US at that time.

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

>>Please tell us what court Kimmel was supposed to be in.
>
>Kimmel was in the court which he supposed to be in.This court "exhonorated"
>Kimmel but the decision of Court which Kimmel supposed to be in,was overturned
>by Forrestal-King duo.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

>>If Kimmel was that psychic, describing 2001, he had no need for warnings,
>>his telepathy should have been enough.
>
>Kimmel surely was not a physic but US PSYOPs getting more and more
>like reruns of the same movie.

Translation Denyav is in flashback mode.

>>By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
>>the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
>>the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to

deleted text,

"enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

>Even tough Manila received warnings that Honolulu never received,
>MacArthur got defeated and humiliated and lost much more men and
>equipment than Kimmel and Short.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

>I wonder why nobody demoted him. I wonder

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

"L'acrobat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Denyav" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > The current official position of US gov't is as follows:
> > "Historical records do not establish convincingly that President
> > Roosevelt,Gen.Marshall and others in Washington "deliberately" witheld
> > information from Adm.Kimmel and Gen.Short as part of a plan or
conspitacy
> to
> > expose Pearl Harbor to attack in order to thrust America into the war".
> >
> > This diplomatic wording says in plain English:Yes information were
witheld
> from
> > them ,but not deliberately.
>
> English is your second language, isn't it.
>
> Poor Den, still making stuff up.

Consider, the diplomatic warning wasn't in English, plain or otherwise.

>You say the US knew and where when the attack was due, all they needed to do
>was prep the a/c the night before and launch 30 mins before the attack, plus
>wake the sailors up early and have them man the AA guns.

First of all FDR or US did not want to deter japanase or save US ships in
Harbor,what FDR wanted was a spectacular event to schock and awe the Nation.
The first warning of Pearl Harbor attack did not came before hours,days or
weeks before the attack,it came almost one year before attack.
1)On January 27,1941 US Ambassador to Japan ,Joseph Grew sent following message
to Washington:
"Peruvian minister has informed one my staff that he has heard from many
sources,including a Japanase source,that in the event of trouble breaking out
between US and Japan,the Japanase intended to make a surprise attack aganist
Pearl Harbor with all their strength"

Again the date of above message is Jan,27,1941.

2)Later Congressman M.Dies wrote the following:
"Early in 1941 the Dies committee came into possesion of a strategic map which
gave clear proof of intentions of the japanese to make an assault on Pearl
Harbor.The strategic map was prepared by the Japanase Imperial Intelligence
dept.
As soon as I received rhe document I telephoned Secretary of State Cordell Hull
and told him what I had.Secretary Hull directed me not to let anyone know about
map and stated that he would call me as soon as he talked to President
Roosevelt.In about an hour he telephoned to say that he had talked to Roosevelt
and they agreed that it would be very serious if any information concerning
this map reached the news services.I told him it was a grave responsibility to
withold such vital information from the public.TheSecretary assured me the he
and Roosevelt considered essential to national defense"

3)Dusko Popov was a British double agent.
In the summer of 1941 Nazis ordered him to Hawai to make a detailed study of PH
naval base and its nearby airfields.
He deduced that his mission betokened a surprise attack by japanase.In Aug.1941
he reported this to FBI in New York.
Later Hoover bitterly recalled that he had provided Popovs warning abour Pearl
Harbor to FDR but that Roosevelt told him not to pass the information any
further and to just leave in in his ,Presidents,hands"

4)Kilso Haan received definite information from Korean underground that the
Japanese were planning to attack Hawai "before Christmas".Haan contacted Iowa
Senator Gillette and convinced him that information had merit.
Sen.Gillette briefed FDR , but FDR said only"it would be looked into"
5)The Dutch Army in Java on Dec.4 decoded a dispatch from Tokyo to Japan
Embassy in Bangkok, forecasting attack on four locations including Hawai.The
Dutch passed information to US Brig.Gen Thorpe.Thorpe sent total 4 urgent
warning messages to Washington,to last one directly to the desk of Marshalls
intel chief.Washington in return ordered Thorpe not send warning messages
anymore.
Col.Weiijerman,Dutch military attache in Washington,also delivered warning
message to Marshalls staff in person.
6)On Nov,29 Cordell Hull met with the journalist J.Leib and handed him some
japanese intercepts about Pearl Harbor and told him that Japanase were planning
the base and that FDR planned to let it happen.
Leib promised to keep Hulls name out of story and contacted UP Washington chief
Wilson and told him the details without giving the name of his source.
Wilson found story ludicrious and refused to run it but Leib managed to get and
urgent version onto UPs foreign service.


>Reality is not your friend, is it?

Is reality your friend?

>You haven't addressed why they couldn't defeat the attack yet, also you
>havent explained how getting into a different war with Japan helps the USA
>get into a war against Germany (or was Hitler in on the big plan too?).
>

Washington was not interested in defeating attack,much less preventing it.

>By sending a war warning?
>
War warning ?,you make me laugh,unfortunately Kimmel was not under Dutch
command.

>Again you feel the need to invent what people are saying.
>
>You really should seek medical help.

I think the people who made Maine Incident (unfortunately too late),Pearl
Harbor (again unfortunately too late) and 9/11 should seek,no not medical
help,but legal help.

>To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
>proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.
>

Actually the reality is much worse than movie makers could even imagine.

Do you know why Kimmels predecessor was relieved of command and replaced by
Kimmel?

The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum and McCollum
was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit responsible IJN
dispatches.
Thats the reason why movies mention mostly japanase diplomatic dispatches.
>You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
>war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.

It was turning point,with Spanish war USN stopped acting like a littorial navy
and started to act like an imperial navy.


>ope with reality. Go on, fight
>the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
>terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
>fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
>real event, since no one else is competing.

Laws alone cannot deter crooks,if you are not able or willing to
catch,prosecute and convict them,no crook will be deterred by the laws written
in books.
In same token,induviduals who plan vicious acts aganist their own people will
not be deterred if the people who planned similar acts in the past could go
free or still worse,regarded as Statesmen.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >English is your second language, isn't it.
> >
> >Poor Den, still making stuff up.
> >
>
> I think everbody who can read government statement can understant its
meaning
> easily,illiterates different story of course.

Yes, but you keep pretending that you can read them.

(Denyav) wrote in message >...
> >The words of a man that failed in his duty and would not admit it.
> >
> >Why, when Adm Halsey sailed earlier that week and informed Adm Kimmel that
> >he intended to shoot down or sink any Japanese ships or aircraft he might
> >encounter on his way to and from Wake Is.
> >Did Adm Halsey have intel that his boss did not posses ?
> >No, Adm Halsey could see the signs, that Adm Kimmel refused to see them and
> >to head those warnings he recieved only reinforce the Navies decision to
> >fire
>

Actually Kimmel saw things long before Halsey and sticked to proven
naval tradition of keeping ships at the sea when international
relations are critical and ordered 46 ships to the safety of open sea
without notifying Washington.
He even ordered the fleet to carry out a mock air raid on Pearl
Harbor.
White House did not like Kimmels actions, countermanded his orders and
ordered fleet to return to Pearl Harbor.
So when the "Grand exercise" cancelled Halseys 25-ship plan
appeared.This smaller scale plan too might have deterred Japanase if
it could be carried out.
So why even Halseys plan too did not go anywhere?
Because Washington ordered Halsey on Nov,26 to use his carriers to
transport aircraft to Midway and Wake Island!.

With this move Washington achieved two objectives,
1)Only force that could possibly detect and deter Japanase was no
longer there
2)Most precious assets of the Navy that were needed in the war with
Japan,the carriers, were in safety.



Battleships which were already obsolete in naval warfare were the
baits for the Iapanese and excellent PSYOP opportunity for FDR.

This order came from Stark but prepared by McCollum ,the architect
FDRs Japan plan.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >You say the US knew and where when the attack was due, all they needed to
do
> >was prep the a/c the night before and launch 30 mins before the attack,
plus
> >wake the sailors up early and have them man the AA guns.
>
> First of all FDR or US did not want to deter japanase or save US ships in
> Harbor,what FDR wanted was a spectacular event to schock and awe the
Nation.

No, you just believe that. do try to distinguish between fact and your
opinion.

A spectacular event that would shock the nation = a surprise attack - it
never had to succeed.

> The first warning of Pearl Harbor attack did not came before hours,days or
> weeks before the attack,it came almost one year before attack.
> 1)On January 27,1941 US Ambassador to Japan ,Joseph Grew sent following
message
> to Washington:
> "Peruvian minister has informed one my staff that he has heard from many
> sources,including a Japanase source,that in the event of trouble breaking
out
> between US and Japan,the Japanase intended to make a surprise attack
aganist
> Pearl Harbor with all their strength"

So the US govt should believe the utterances of EVERY single foreign
diplomat in the world?

And act on them? should the US have gone to war on 2nd hand information
from a PERUVIAN minister?


>
> Again the date of above message is Jan,27,1941.
>

As above.

> 2)Later Congressman M.Dies wrote the following:
> "Early in 1941 the Dies committee came into possesion of a strategic map
which
> gave clear proof of intentions of the japanese to make an assault on Pearl
> Harbor.The strategic map was prepared by the Japanase Imperial
Intelligence
> dept.
> As soon as I received rhe document I telephoned Secretary of State Cordell
Hull
> and told him what I had.Secretary Hull directed me not to let anyone know
about
> map and stated that he would call me as soon as he talked to President
> Roosevelt.In about an hour he telephoned to say that he had talked to
Roosevelt
> and they agreed that it would be very serious if any information
concerning
> this map reached the news services.I told him it was a grave
responsibility to
> withold such vital information from the public.TheSecretary assured me the
he
> and Roosevelt considered essential to national defense"


and M Dies agenda was?

>
> 3)Dusko Popov was a British double agent.
> In the summer of 1941 Nazis ordered him to Hawai to make a detailed study
of PH
> naval base and its nearby airfields.
> He deduced that his mission betokened a surprise attack by japanase.In
Aug.1941
> he reported this to FBI in New York.
> Later Hoover bitterly recalled that he had provided Popovs warning abour
Pearl
> Harbor to FDR but that Roosevelt told him not to pass the information any
> further and to just leave in in his ,Presidents,hands"


He may well have deduced that, but since the Germans didn't know about any
attack on Pearl Harbour until after the event and the Brits were reading
German codes, it seems likely that it was ignored as trivial.

>
> 4)Kilso Haan received definite information from Korean underground that
the
> Japanese were planning to attack Hawai "before Christmas".Haan contacted
Iowa
> Senator Gillette and convinced him that information had merit.
> Sen.Gillette briefed FDR , but FDR said only"it would be looked into"

You don't think that the "Korean underground" had reasons to be making stuff
up that might draw the USA into a war with the Japanese?


> 5)The Dutch Army in Java on Dec.4 decoded a dispatch from Tokyo to Japan
> Embassy in Bangkok, forecasting attack on four locations including
Hawai.The
> Dutch passed information to US Brig.Gen Thorpe.Thorpe sent total 4 urgent
> warning messages to Washington,to last one directly to the desk of
Marshalls
> intel chief.Washington in return ordered Thorpe not send warning messages
> anymore.

Interesting, given that the Japanese didn't transmit that information. ever.


> Col.Weiijerman,Dutch military attache in Washington,also delivered warning
> message to Marshalls staff in person.

Interesting, given that the Japanese didn't transmit that information. ever.

> 6)On Nov,29 Cordell Hull met with the journalist J.Leib and handed him
some
> japanese intercepts about Pearl Harbor and told him that Japanase were
planning
> the base and that FDR planned to let it happen.
> Leib promised to keep Hulls name out of story and contacted UP Washington
chief
> Wilson and told him the details without giving the name of his source.
> Wilson found story ludicrious and refused to run it but Leib managed to
get and
> urgent version onto UPs foreign service.


Mr. Joe Lieb's claim that Secretary of State Hull told him of the coming
attack and named Pearl Harbor as the target. The trouble here is that Mr.
Lieb and Mr. Hull were the only ones present at their alleged conversation,
and Mr. Lieb did not see fit to tell anyone of this conversation until after
Mr. Hull died. Thus there is no way independently to verify his claim.

>
>
> >Reality is not your friend, is it?
>
> Is reality your friend?

Yes, why do you make this **** up?

>
> >You haven't addressed why they couldn't defeat the attack yet, also you
> >havent explained how getting into a different war with Japan helps the
USA
> >get into a war against Germany (or was Hitler in on the big plan too?).
> >
>
> Washington was not interested in defeating attack,much less preventing it.

Clashes with reality, the US didn't have to lose to be in the war, just get
attacked.

>
> >By sending a war warning?
> >
> War warning ?,you make me laugh,unfortunately Kimmel was not under Dutch
> command.

A final war warning issued to all commanders in the army and navy on
November 27 was not heeded because Pearl Harbor was not mentioned as a
possible target.

Kimmel was so incompetent that he didn't heed the warning and then spent the
rest of his life trying to gloss over that simple fact..

>
> >Again you feel the need to invent what people are saying.
> >
> >You really should seek medical help.
>
> I think the people who made Maine Incident (unfortunately too late),Pearl
> Harbor (again unfortunately too late) and 9/11 should seek,no not medical
> help,but legal help.

No, you are simply insane.

>A spectacular event that would shock the nation = a surprise attack - it
>never had to succeed.

Read Part six of McCollum's eight part plan.


o the US govt should believe the utterances of EVERY single foreign
>diplomat in the world?
>
>And act on them? should the US have gone to war on 2nd hand information
>from a PERUVIAN minister?

If you'd planned to make this event happen you would not believe even this
message had come from Jesus Crist.
Who is a Peruvian minister to spoil FDRs plans?

>and M Dies agenda was?
>

Good question,He was the Chairman of the Committeee,

>He may well have deduced that, but since the Germans didn't know about any
>attack on Pearl Harbour until after the event and the Brits were reading
>German codes, it seems likely that it was ignored as trivial.

We know British knew Pearl Harbor attack ,Popovs trstimony was for Brits not
new.

>You don't think that the "Korean underground" had reasons to be making stuff
>up that might draw the USA into a war with the Japanese?

For those who decided to set Pearl Harbor trap for Japanase,of course every
warning is very suspicious.

>Interesting, given that the Japanese didn't transmit that information. ever.

Thats biggest lie of whole story,IJN sent dispatces too and their dispaches
were even more easy than diplomatical ones.
But the person responsible for IJN dispatches was McCollum,the Architect of
Pearl Harbor trap.
Thats the most important part of whole Japan story.


>Interesting, given that the Japanese didn't transmit that information. ever.
>

See above.

>Yes, why do you make this **** up?
>

Because there is only one reality and this is the reality.

>Clashes with reality, the US didn't have to lose to be in the war, just get
>attacked.

US did not lose war.
Even planners of Pearl Harbor paid attention to this detail,Japanase were only
allowed to sink and destroy obsolete equipment.

If you put the morality issue aside,you must appreciate McCollums geniality.

>A final war warning issued to all commanders in the army and navy on
>November 27 was not heeded because Pearl Harbor was not mentioned as a
>possible target.
>

So Called war warning was issued for places thousands miles away from
Hawaii,but not for Hawaii,even though Washington knew the exact position of
Japanese Carriers and the name of their target.
Capt.Ranneft of Dutch Navy,the dutch naval arrache, learned the exact position
of Japanase Carriers in McCollums department.
At that day,they were 300-400 miles northwest of Pearl Harbor
The day was Dec,6.1941

Surprise attack????, surely not.
Day of Infamy,for some in Washington surely.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >A spectacular event that would shock the nation = a surprise attack - it
> >never had to succeed.
>
> Read Part six of McCollum's eight part plan.

Yeah, try reading some history.

>
>
> o the US govt should believe the utterances of EVERY single foreign
> >diplomat in the world?
> >
> >And act on them? should the US have gone to war on 2nd hand information
> >from a PERUVIAN minister?
>
> If you'd planned to make this event happen you would not believe even
this
> message had come from Jesus Crist.
> Who is a Peruvian minister to spoil FDRs plans?

No, the question is who is a peruvian minister and why should info from
another Govt be given credence.

Other govts have their own agendas.

>
> >and M Dies agenda was?
> >
>
> Good question,He was the Chairman of the Committeee,

and you didn't answer the question.

>
> >He may well have deduced that, but since the Germans didn't know about
any
> >attack on Pearl Harbour until after the event and the Brits were reading
> >German codes, it seems likely that it was ignored as trivial.
>
> We know British knew Pearl Harbor attack ,Popovs trstimony was for Brits
not
> new.


No, you believe the Brits knew, do try to distinguish between fact and your
opinion.

>
> >You don't think that the "Korean underground" had reasons to be making
stuff
> >up that might draw the USA into a war with the Japanese?
>
> For those who decided to set Pearl Harbor trap for Japanase,of course
every
> warning is very suspicious.

Or to put it another way, you believe it so you accept it as fact.

>
> >Interesting, given that the Japanese didn't transmit that information.
ever.
>
> Thats biggest lie of whole story,IJN sent dispatces too and their
dispaches
> were even more easy than diplomatical ones.

No, the IJN sent none - reality is not your friend is it?

But since the US had a limited number of Japanese speaking translators and
those they had were tasked on the Diplomatic codes, it doesn't matter does
it.

> But the person responsible for IJN dispatches was McCollum,the Architect
of
> Pearl Harbor trap.
> Thats the most important part of whole Japan story.

and a complete lie like the rest of your story.

>
>
> >Interesting, given that the Japanese didn't transmit that information.
ever.
> >
>
> See above.

No, the IJN sent none - reality is not your friend is it?

>
> >Yes, why do you make this **** up?
> >
>
> Because there is only one reality and this is the reality.

No, it is your opinion.

>
> >Clashes with reality, the US didn't have to lose to be in the war, just
get
> >attacked.
>
> US did not lose war.

They didn't have to lose that battle and by sinking the Japa carriers that
launched the attack, they'd have ended it then and there.

Reality is not your friend is it?


> Even planners of Pearl Harbor paid attention to this detail,Japanase were
only
> allowed to sink and destroy obsolete equipment.

You mean the equipment they refloated and used, that obsolete equipment?



>
> >A final war warning issued to all commanders in the army and navy on
> >November 27 was not heeded because Pearl Harbor was not mentioned as a
> >possible target.
> >
>
> So Called war warning was issued for places thousands miles away from
> Hawaii,but not for Hawaii,even though Washington knew the exact position
of
> Japanese Carriers and the name of their target.
> Capt.Ranneft of Dutch Navy,the dutch naval arrache, learned the exact
position
> of Japanase Carriers in McCollums department.
> At that day,they were 300-400 miles northwest of Pearl Harbor
> The day was Dec,6.1941

So you actually believe that the commander of a pacific fleet base who was
competent would have ignored a war warning involving Japan, believing
perhaps that it had nothing to do with his duties?

it was obvious that you were not sane, but it is clear that you are stupid
to boot.

> Read Part six of McCollum's eight part plan.
>
>Yeah, try reading some history.

You are pretty good in backpedalling.

>No, the question is who is a peruvian minister and why should info from
>another Govt be given credence.
>
>Other govts have their own agendas.

Sure,alone might not be very interesting,but together with other inelligence
different story.

>No, you believe the Brits knew, do try to distinguish between fact and your
>opinion.

Really,This one of the reasons why Tyler Kent were locked up in Britain in
1940.
As Castello,a british citizen and author of "Days of Infamy"correctly stated
British documents about Pearl Harbor are subject to secret US-British
Intelligence agreement and cannot be declassified without US approval.So these
document are in BFO but cannot be classified.

>Or to put it another way, you believe it so you accept it as fact.
>

May I say,you believe "there is no Pearl Harbor conspiracy" so you accept it
as a fact despite countless evidences proving otherwise.



>No, the IJN sent none - reality is not your friend is it?
>
>But since the US had a limited number of Japanese speaking translators and
>those they had were tasked on the Diplomatic codes, it doesn't matter

It was long presumed that as Japanase Fleet approached Hawaii it maintained
complete radio silence.This is a total lie.The Fleet barely barely observed
discredition,let alone silence.
McCollums OPI intercepted and translated various Naval dispatches some clearly
revealing that That PH was the target.
The Most significant of them the was following,sent from Adm.Yamamato to the
Japanase first air fleet on November 26.
"The Task force,keeping its movement strickly secret and maintaining close
guard aganist submarines and aircraft,shall advance into HAwaian waters and
upon the very opening of the hostilities shall attack main force of US fleet
and deal it a mortal blow.First air raid planned for the dawn of x-day.Exact
date to be given by later order"

What Washington did when they got this message?
Well they issued famous "War Warning" for the places thousands miles away from
Hawaii !!!!!.
The issuing famous War Warning for important for Washington for two reasons.
1)They sent Japanase intel wrong message,and assured Japanase that US had no
idea about Japans intentions.Pearl Harbor Trap was complete.
2)They wanted to save their own asses.

Needless to say again above message was intercepted,deciphered and translated
by McCollums department,the architect of Japan plan and also acted as FDRs
personal routing officer.
Thats the reason why none of intercepted Naval dispatces surfaced in any of
Pearl Harbor investigations.

You are a friend of reality,dont you?

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> > Read Part six of McCollum's eight part plan.
> >
> >Yeah, try reading some history.
>
> You are pretty good in backpedalling.

Not backpedalling, you are a loon and your sources crap.

>
> >No, the question is who is a peruvian minister and why should info from
> >another Govt be given credence.
> >
> >Other govts have their own agendas.
>
> Sure,alone might not be very interesting,but together with other
inelligence
> different story.

So a Peruvian minister and a conquered people (Korean "underground")
together should have caused the USA to go to war?


>
> >No, you believe the Brits knew, do try to distinguish between fact and
your
> >opinion.
>
> Really,This one of the reasons why Tyler Kent were locked up in Britain in
> 1940.
> As Castello,a british citizen and author of "Days of Infamy"correctly
stated
> British documents about Pearl Harbor are subject to secret US-British
> Intelligence agreement and cannot be declassified without US approval.So
these
> document are in BFO but cannot be classified.

Tyler Kent was born in China in 1911. His father was a member of the U.S.
Diplomatic Corps. Kent was educated at Princeton, the Sorbone, the
University of Madrid and George Washington University. Kent, who spoke
French, Greek, German, Russian, Italian and Spanish, joined the State
Department in 1934 as a clerk in the Foreign Service and was posted to
Moscow.

While in the Soviet Union Kent was accused of helping White Russians to
smuggle into the United States various Imperial Russian treasures. It was
later revealed that he was also passing on documents to Nazi intelligence
while in Moscow.

Kent was transferred to London to work as a cypher clerk at the American
Embassy. His arrival in England in the company of Ludwig Matthias, a Gestapo
agent, brought him to the attention of MI5.

In February 1940, Tyler met Anna Wolkoff. Her father, Admiral Nikolai
Wolkoff, was the former aide-to-camp to the Nicholas II in London. After the
Russian Revolution Wolkoff decided to remain in England. The Wolfoff family
ran the Russian Tea Room in South Kensington, a place where members of the
secret society, the Right Club, used to meet. Wolkoff introduced Tyler to
Archibald Ramsay, the leader of the organization. Wolkoff, Kent and Ramsay
talked about politics and agreed that they all shared the same political
views.

Kent was concerned that the American government wanted the United States to
join the war against Germany. He said he had evidence of this as he had been
making copies of the correspondence between President Franklin D. Roosevelt
and Winston Churchill. Kent invited Wolkoff and Ramsay back to his flat to
look at these documents. This included secret assurances that the United
States would support France if it was invaded by the German Army. Kent later
argued that he had shown these documents to Ramsay in the hope that he would
pass this information to American politicians hostile to Roosevelt.

On 13th April 1940 Anna Wolkoff went to Kent's flat and made copies of some
of these documents. Joan Miller and Marjorie Amor were later to testify that
these documents were then passed on to Duco del Monte, Assistant Naval
Attaché at the Italian Embassy. Soon afterwards, MI8, the wireless
interception service, picked up messages between Rome and Berlin that
indicated that Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of German military intelligence
(Abwehr), now had copies of the Roosevelt-Churchill correspondence

Soon afterwards Wolkoff asked Miller if she would use her contacts at the
Italian Embassy to pass a coded letter to William Joyce (Lord Haw-Haw) in
Germany. The letter contained information that he could use in his
broadcasts on Radio Hamburg. Before passing the letter to her contacts,
Miller showed it to Maxwell Knight.

On 18th May, Knight told Guy Liddell about the Right Club spy ring. Liddell
immediately had a meeting with Joseph Kennedy, the American Ambassador in
London. Kennedy agreed to waive Kent's diplomatic immunity and on 20th May,
1940, the Special Branch raided his flat. Inside they found the copies of
1,929 classified documents including secret correspondence between Franklin
D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill.


So Tyler worked for the Nazis and got locked up by the Brits for doing so
(the US having waived his immunity), he also lied ("This included secret
assurances that the United States would support France if it was invaded by
the German Army") - gee he wouldn't have any reason to try to make himself
good at the expense of the US and UK would he?




>
> >Or to put it another way, you believe it so you accept it as fact.
> >
>
> May I say,you believe "there is no Pearl Harbor conspiracy" so you accept
it
> as a fact despite countless evidences proving otherwise.

No, the historical evidence shows that there was no conspiracy, just a bunch
of sad loons wishing there was one.

>
>
>
> >No, the IJN sent none - reality is not your friend is it?
> >
> >But since the US had a limited number of Japanese speaking translators
and
> >those they had were tasked on the Diplomatic codes, it doesn't matter
>
> It was long presumed that as Japanase Fleet approached Hawaii it
maintained
> complete radio silence.This is a total lie.The Fleet barely barely
observed
> discredition,let alone silence.

Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
reality get in your way.


> McCollums OPI intercepted and translated various Naval dispatches some
clearly
> revealing that That PH was the target.

Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
reality get in your way.

> The Most significant of them the was following,sent from Adm.Yamamato to
the
> Japanase first air fleet on November 26.

Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
reality get in your way.

> "The Task force,keeping its movement strickly secret and maintaining close
> guard aganist submarines and aircraft,shall advance into HAwaian waters
and
> upon the very opening of the hostilities shall attack main force of US
fleet
> and deal it a mortal blow.First air raid planned for the dawn of
x-day.Exact
> date to be given by later order"


Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
reality get in your way.

>
> What Washington did when they got this message?
> Well they issued famous "War Warning" for the places thousands miles away
from
> Hawaii !!!!!.
> The issuing famous War Warning for important for Washington for two
reasons.
> 1)They sent Japanase intel wrong message,and assured Japanase that US had
no
> idea about Japans intentions.Pearl Harbor Trap was complete.
> 2)They wanted to save their own asses.
>

They issued a war warning expecting all commanders to act on it, the
competent ones did, the incompetent ones spent the rest of their lives
peddling conspiracy nonsense to the gullible and stupid.

> Needless to say again above message was intercepted,deciphered and
translated
> by McCollums department,the architect of Japan plan and also acted as
FDRs
> personal routing officer.
> Thats the reason why none of intercepted Naval dispatces surfaced in any
of
> Pearl Harbor investigations.
>

Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
reality get in your way.

> You are a friend of reality,dont you?
>

The problem you run into is that the stuff you claim happened didn't. you
really should seek professional help.

>The problem you run into is that the stuff you claim happened didn't. you
>really should seek professional help.

Really?? Ad Hominem attacks are not a good alternative to research.
Do you remember Journalist Leib who met with Cordell Hull and received
transcripts of Japanase naval dispaches revealing Pearl Harbor attack?
Now as I said before he (Leib) contacted immediately his personal friend and UP
Washington chief Wilson and told him the whole story,minus the identity of his
source.(Cordell Hull).
But Wilson found the story ludicrous and refused to run it.
But Leib managed to persuade his other friend,UP cable editor Harry Frantz,to
transmit it on foreign cable.
So,Leib's story,transmitted on foreign cable,created a front page banner
Headline
in the Sunday,Nov.30,Honolulu Advertiser:
"JAPANASE MAY STRIKE OVER WEEKEND".
The journey of this news started in Cordell Hull's office and ended in the
front page of an Hawaian paper.

Since you are apparently a big fan of reality and truth,you might want to visit
your local library check out newspaper.

>Not backpedalling, you are a loon and your sources crap.

Yeah right.

>So a Peruvian minister and a conquered people (Korean "underground")
>together should have caused the USA to go to war?

Obviously FDR administration did not want to go to war but
Peruvians,Koreans,Dutch etc, all were setting traps for FDR to force him to
enter war.
I think something wrong in this picture,but I could not figure out what?
Any help appreciated.

>would support France if it was invaded by
>the German Army") - gee he wouldn't have any reason to try to make himself
>good at the expense of the US and UK would he?

>1,929 classified documents including secret correspondence between Franklin
>D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill.

The secret corrospondence that according to declassified official documents
never existed.

>Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
>dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
>reality get in your way.

IJN records only show that they were under orders to maintain radio silence but
nothing about if these orders were followed all the times.
Captain Ranneft,Dutch Naval Attache visited ONI twice just prior to attack,
first on
Dec.2 then on Dec.6.
On his first visit Japanase Task force was in some spot midway between Japan
and Hawai.
On his last visit Task Force was 300-400 miles NW of Hawaii.
So,without doubt ONI was following Japanese task force very closely.

Not only military was intercepting IJN task force radio messages,but also
civilians,for example an American liner in Pasific picked up heavy radio
traffic from the task force and reported it to FBI.

On military side,for example,A seaman in the intelligence office of the12th
Naval District HQ in SF had intercepted Japan radio traffic and used it to plot
accurately the position of the Task Force.
He provided that info to his superiors and he was told by his superiors that
his information was passed on to highest levels.

>Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
>dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
>reality get in your way.
>

1)Sender of Nov,26 message which is the most revealing of all intercepted IJN
dispatches was Yamamato and First air fleet was the intended recipient,not the
other way around.
2)Task force never maintained 100% radio silence as explained above.

>They issued a war warning expecting all commanders to act on it, the
>competent ones did, the incompetent ones spent the rest of their lives
>peddling conspiracy nonsense to the gullible and stupid.

As soon as they intercepted above referred Yamamato message revealing Pearl
Harbor as target,they issued so called war warning .
But there is a small problem,Yamamato message mentioned only one location as
target,Pearl Harbor.
But so called War Warning included almost every location in Pasific as possible
targets EXCEPT ,well,Pearl Harbor.

The Real goal of so called War Warning was not to warn possible targets,its
goal was to deceive Japanese and make Japanese intel believe that US had no
idea about Japanese intentions.



>The problem you run into is that the stuff you claim happened didn't. you
>really should seek professional help.

You know ,your outer space aliens,masquarading sometimes as Spanians,sometimes
as German communists,sometimes as McCollum,sometimes as Islamic zealots.

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach.

Denyav wrote in message >...
>>To prove this absurd claim the movie Pearl Harbor is cited as
>>proof, the actions of a fictional character in a work of fiction.
>
>Actually the reality is much worse than movie makers could even imagine.

Yes folks, the fictional movie is to be supplemented with more fiction.

>Do you know why Kimmels predecessor was relieved of command and
>replaced by Kimmel?

Disagreement with the boss.

>The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum
>and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence unit >responsible IJN dispatches.
>Thats the reason why movies mention mostly japanase diplomatic dispatches.

I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours
of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance,
his use of the famed McCollum Memo.

By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the
authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition
where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the
author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25]
could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers
in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes,
his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals
Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries
to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered.
Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives
his opinion.

The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other
people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money
does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to
admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer.

However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to
be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East
expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the
command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of
OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese
codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY.

Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere
near FDR.

By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend
the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows
an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the
section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of
cryptographers and security cleared language experts.

Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not
transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the
surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war
interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to
put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by
radio is a joke.

The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu
Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido
and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph
office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu
Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in
1923 and worked at the Shana cable office.

Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and
Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air
and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was
at Hitokappu Bay. Source. “History on Communications” by
Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo:
Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953).

>>You forgot the fact the US did not emerge from the Spanish American
>>war as a major power in military terms, it lacked the navy.
>
>It was turning point,with Spanish war USN stopped acting like a littorial navy
>and started to act like an imperial navy.

By the way folks, the conspiracy claims are dropped, instead we
have something totally different dropped in.

Deleted text,

"You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. "

>>ope with reality. Go on, fight
>>the everlasting conspiracy, award yourself medals for fighting the
>>terrifying enemy, all in complete safety, since there is nothing to
>>fight, but go on murdering the truth for personal gain. Win the non
>>real event, since no one else is competing.
>
>Laws alone cannot deter crooks,if you are not able or willing to
>catch,prosecute and convict them,no crook will be deterred by the
>laws written in books.
>In same token,induviduals who plan vicious acts aganist their own people will
>not be deterred if the people who planned similar acts in the past could go
>free or still worse,regarded as Statesmen.

Translation do not deal with the issues on their merits, invent crimes
from years ago and use those as an excuse to do what you want to
do, above all do not think.

I note the fun things like the URL for the congressional petition transcript
makes note of the Japanese consulate's words about a surprise attack
being possible, a message not broken out before the attack, to accuse
Washington of short changing the field commanders.

If the assessment is a surprise attack was possible what does that say
of two things,

1) the size of the defences
2) the alertness of the defences.

1) Is largely Washington determined, 2) is locally determined. But do
not worry, erase item 2 and carry on with the field commanders did
nothing wrong line.

The rest is simply text that could not be replied to,

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp106&&r_n=hr945.106&sel=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >The problem you run into is that the stuff you claim happened didn't. you
> >really should seek professional help.
>
> Really?? Ad Hominem attacks are not a good alternative to research.

Perhaps if you did some research you wouldn't leave yourself wide open for
ad hom attack you loon.

> Do you remember Journalist Leib who met with Cordell Hull and received
> transcripts of Japanase naval dispaches revealing Pearl Harbor attack?

No, he CLAIMED to have met him and received that info, nobody else was
present and he only ever made that claim after Hull was safely dead, a sane
person would suggest that he was making it up.

If you believe Liebs crap, I've got a great story to tell you about the orgy
I recently had with 14 supermodels, but I have to wait till they have all
passed on before I can tell it.


> Now as I said before he (Leib) contacted immediately his personal friend
and UP
> Washington chief Wilson and told him the whole story,minus the identity of
his
> source.(Cordell Hull).

So he went and told someone "I have a big story, but I can't tell you the
source - print it"

and his story wasn't accurate was it?


> But Wilson found the story ludicrous and refused to run it.
> But Leib managed to persuade his other friend,UP cable editor Harry
Frantz,to
> transmit it on foreign cable.
> So,Leib's story,transmitted on foreign cable,created a front page banner
> Headline
> in the Sunday,Nov.30,Honolulu Advertiser:
> "JAPANASE MAY STRIKE OVER WEEKEND".
> The journey of this news started in Cordell Hull's office and ended in the
> front page of an Hawaian paper.

and was not accurate, he made it up.

The Japanese didn't strike that weekend, did they?


>
> Since you are apparently a big fan of reality and truth,you might want to
visit
> your local library check out newspaper.

But Liebs story was wrong, every day loons predict things that don't happen.

It also begs the question why Kimmel didn't take a war warning seriously,
when the local paper was running such stories.

Do try to deal with reality.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >Not backpedalling, you are a loon and your sources crap.
>
> Yeah right.
>
> >So a Peruvian minister and a conquered people (Korean "underground")
> >together should have caused the USA to go to war?
>
> Obviously FDR administration did not want to go to war but
> Peruvians,Koreans,Dutch etc, all were setting traps for FDR to force him
to
> enter war.
> I think something wrong in this picture,but I could not figure out what?
> Any help appreciated.

You have so far ignored all the help you have been given, work it out
yourself.

>
> >would support France if it was invaded by
> >the German Army") - gee he wouldn't have any reason to try to make
himself
> >good at the expense of the US and UK would he?
>
> >1,929 classified documents including secret correspondence between
Franklin
> >D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill.
>
> The secret corrospondence that according to declassified official
documents
> never existed.

I note you avoid the point, he has already been shown to be a Nazi spy and a
liar - why trust him now?


>
> >Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
> >dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
> >reality get in your way.
>
> IJN records only show that they were under orders to maintain radio
silence but
> nothing about if these orders were followed all the times.

Hard to do otherwise when the radio is dismantled.

> Captain Ranneft,Dutch Naval Attache visited ONI twice just prior to
attack,
> first on
> Dec.2 then on Dec.6.
> On his first visit Japanase Task force was in some spot midway between
Japan
> and Hawai.
> On his last visit Task Force was 300-400 miles NW of Hawaii.
> So,without doubt ONI was following Japanese task force very closely.
>
> Not only military was intercepting IJN task force radio messages,but also
> civilians,for example an American liner in Pasific picked up heavy radio
> traffic from the task force and reported it to FBI.

No, they picked up radio traffic, they have no idea where it came from,
learn something about radio (try learning about 'skip distances') before you
comment.

>
> On military side,for example,A seaman in the intelligence office of
the12th
> Naval District HQ in SF had intercepted Japan radio traffic and used it to
plot
> accurately the position of the Task Force.
> He provided that info to his superiors and he was told by his superiors
that
> his information was passed on to highest levels.

The Japanese themselves claim their fleet (Kido Butai) never sent a single
message. They say they dismantled the telegraph sending devices so a message
could not be sent. After the war, the Strategic Bombing Survey found the
Japanese military's own after-action report, which credits the success of
the attack to the fact that secrecy was maintained.

Among the reasons why secrecy was maintained, radio silence comes first.

He claims to have done that, no proof is offered.


>
> >Unfortunately the IJN records show otherwise, they went so far as to
> >dismantle the transmitters to be sure no mistake was made, but don't let
> >reality get in your way.
> >
>
> 1)Sender of Nov,26 message which is the most revealing of all intercepted
IJN
> dispatches was Yamamato and First air fleet was the intended recipient,not
the
> other way around.
> 2)Task force never maintained 100% radio silence as explained above.
>
> >They issued a war warning expecting all commanders to act on it, the
> >competent ones did, the incompetent ones spent the rest of their lives
> >peddling conspiracy nonsense to the gullible and stupid.
>
> As soon as they intercepted above referred Yamamato message revealing
Pearl
> Harbor as target,they issued so called war warning .

The Japanese themselves claim their fleet (Kido Butai) never sent a single
message. They say they dismantled the telegraph sending devices so a message
could not be sent.

> But there is a small problem,Yamamato message mentioned only one location
as
> target,Pearl Harbor.

Nope.

The Japanese themselves claim their fleet (Kido Butai) never sent a single
message. They say they dismantled the telegraph sending devices so a message
could not be sent.

> But so called War Warning included almost every location in Pasific as
possible
> targets EXCEPT ,well,Pearl Harbor.

A war warning does not have to specify every possible location of combat.
Kimmel was incompetent, he got reamed for it, he deserved it. deal with it.

>
> The Real goal of so called War Warning was not to warn possible
targets,its
> goal was to deceive Japanese and make Japanese intel believe that US had
no
> idea about Japanese intentions.
>

No, that is your opinion, try to distinguish between your opinion and
reality - a war warning warns (oddly enough) of impending war, given the
Brits at Taranto and the existence of aircraft carriers, a competent
commander would have acted on that warning. Kimmel didn't. he paid for it.

>
>
> >The problem you run into is that the stuff you claim happened didn't. you
> >really should seek professional help.
>
> You know ,your outer space aliens,masquarading sometimes as
Spanians,sometimes
> as German communists,sometimes as McCollum,sometimes as Islamic zealots.

Try reading some history rather than your comic books.

>> Obviously FDR administration did not want to go to war but
>> Peruvians,Koreans,Dutch etc, all were setting traps for FDR to force him
>to
>> enter war.
>> I think something wrong in this picture,but I could not figure out what?

>> Any help appreciated.
>
>You have so far ignored all the help you have been given, work it out

You are pretty good in dodging questions.>I note you avoid the point, he has
already been shown to be a Nazi spy and a
>liar - why trust him now?

So,He was a Nazi spy,other one was a Dutch naval officer,another one was a
personal friend of Hull,another one was a Peruvian minister,another one was a
Korean,another one was British double agent,another one was a Congressman and
committee Chairman,another was a USN personal so the list goes on and on.

So instead of asking the people not to believe witnessess and their
documents,you should have asked Congress to pass a bill and make believing to
the official versions mandatory.It would make everthing easier for you and me.

Hard to do otherwise when the radio is dismantled.
>
They were under order to keep radio silence not to dismantle radios,They used
them occasionaly and their messages were intercepted.


>No, they picked up radio traffic, they have no idea where it came from,
>learn something about radio (try learning about 'skip distances') before you
>comment.
>

Even the Sailor Z in intel department of 12th naval district plotted course of
task force using radio intercepts.
His true identity has been revealed in 80s and he gave an official testimony to
Gov't investigator.

>The Japanese themselves claim their fleet (Kido Butai) never sent a single
>message. They say they dismantled the telegraph sending devices so a message
>could not be sent. After the war, the Strategic Bombing Survey found the

Does the name McArthur remind you something about post WWII Japan?

"L'acrobat" > wrote > But Liebs story
was wrong, every day loons predict things that don't happen.
>
> It also begs the question why Kimmel didn't take a war warning seriously,
> when the local paper was running such stories.
>
> Do try to deal with reality.

Maybe He was trusting much more to the Great Leaders in Washington
than the loons who made up such unbelieveable news.

Reality is still available in paper if you goto your library you can
even touch it,literally,

..
>
> I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours
> of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance,
> his use of the famed McCollum Memo.
>
> By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the
> authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition
> where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the
> author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25]
> could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers
> in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes,
> his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals
> Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries
> to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered.
> Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives
> his opinion.

Stinnett is the man who discovered that truthful answers to Pearl
Harbor controversy secreted in bomb proof vaults,withheld from two
congressional investigations and from American People.
As Late as 1995 the Joint Congressional investigation conducted by
Sen.Thurman and and Rep.Franke was denied access to the Naval storage
vault in Crane, IN
Because of his efforts Naval Security Group Command agreed to transfer
Crane files to National Archieves.
"The Days of Deceipt" is based on what he found in first batch of
released documents.
After the days of deceipt appeared a strange thing happened,NSA
immediately started withdrawing pre Pearl Harbor documents from
Archive II.
As of today almost 30 NSA withdrawal notices guarantee that pre Pearl
Harbor documents discovered in Crane IN will be off limits to American
People and their elected represantatives for another 60 years
Your above mentioned quote from the book refers to percentage of
deciphered japanase messages it might be 30% or might be 100%.
As I said before the book was based on documents found in first batch
of Crane documents released in middle of 90s,and information revealed
in documents astonishing,but crane documents reviewed by Stinnett was
only a minuscule percentage of crane documents,by far not enough to
say something definite about the percentage of Japanase messages
deciphered and translated by US.

> The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other
> people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money
> does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to
> admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer.

Official Version here is the one where the officials are paid for
telling the public what their bosses want.This is one important
difference.
Another important difference between offical story tellers and
conspiracy loons is the following:Offical story tellers have
priviledge to distort or completely withhold information whereas
conspiracy loons cannot even dream of having such priviledges.

> However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to
> be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East
> expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the
> command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of
> OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese
> codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY.
>
> Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere
> near FDR.
The Famed Memo did not need to go anywhere,it became offical Japan
policy of FDR administration.

By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend
> the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows
> an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the
> section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of
> cryptographers and security cleared language experts.
>
> Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not
> transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the
> surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war
> interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to
> put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by
> radio is a joke.
>
> The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu
> Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido
> and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph
> office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu
> Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in
> 1923 and worked at the Shana cable office.
>
> Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and
> Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air
> and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was
> at Hitokappu Bay. Source. ?History on Communications? by
> Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo:
> Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953).


Who told Yamamato that their Naval code was broken?
Even today you can intercept any radio transmission easily,but if you
cannot decode and decipher it,its useless.
Even after Pearl Harbor IJN continued to use the same code because
they were not aware that it was broken.
Radio messages sent with unbroken or unbreakable code is as safe as
courier messages,if not more.

"denyav" > wrote in message
om...
> "L'acrobat" > wrote > But Liebs story
> was wrong, every day loons predict things that don't happen.
> >
> > It also begs the question why Kimmel didn't take a war warning
seriously,
> > when the local paper was running such stories.
> >
> > Do try to deal with reality.
>
> Maybe He was trusting much more to the Great Leaders in Washington
> than the loons who made up such unbelieveable news.
>
> Reality is still available in paper if you goto your library you can
> even touch it,literally,


I see you have again chosen to avoid the facts. you are simply a loon and
well known for it.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >> Obviously FDR administration did not want to go to war but
> >> Peruvians,Koreans,Dutch etc, all were setting traps for FDR to force
him
> >to
> >> enter war.
> >> I think something wrong in this picture,but I could not figure out
what?
>
> >> Any help appreciated.
> >
> >You have so far ignored all the help you have been given, work it out
>
> You are pretty good in dodging questions.>I note you avoid the point, he
has
> already been shown to be a Nazi spy and a
> >liar - why trust him now?
>
> So,He was a Nazi spy,other one was a Dutch naval officer,another one was a
> personal friend of Hull,another one was a Peruvian minister,another one
was a
> Korean,another one was British double agent,another one was a Congressman
and
> committee Chairman,another was a USN personal so the list goes on and on.

No, the list doesn't go on - you do.

No transmissions were made by the IJN, the Germans didn't have a clue it was
happening and you are just a loon.

>
> So instead of asking the people not to believe witnessess and their
> documents,you should have asked Congress to pass a bill and make believing
to
> the official versions mandatory.It would make everthing easier for you and
me.
>
> Hard to do otherwise when the radio is dismantled.
> >
> They were under order to keep radio silence not to dismantle radios,They
used
> them occasionaly and their messages were intercepted.

No, the IJN records show they were dismantled.

Reality. deal with it.

>
>
> >No, they picked up radio traffic, they have no idea where it came from,
> >learn something about radio (try learning about 'skip distances') before
you
> >comment.
> >
>
> Even the Sailor Z in intel department of 12th naval district plotted
course of
> task force using radio intercepts.

Nope, try looking up skip distances.


> His true identity has been revealed in 80s and he gave an official
testimony to
> Gov't investigator.
>
> >The Japanese themselves claim their fleet (Kido Butai) never sent a
single
> >message. They say they dismantled the telegraph sending devices so a
message
> >could not be sent. After the war, the Strategic Bombing Survey found the
>
> Does the name McArthur remind you something about post WWII Japan?

A whole new conspiracy. good. that will make you happy.

>No, the list doesn't go on - you do.
>
>No transmissions were made by the IJN, the Germans didn't have a clue it was
>happening and you are just a loon

Please feel free to repeat the above thousands times more if it makes you
happy,but it wont change anything , big lies do not last for forever,even if
they are under NSA protection.

>No, the IJN records show they were dismantled.
>
>Reality. deal with it.

Thats your reality Sir,not the reality of many who actualy listen and report
them.
Actually IJN ships were under orders to cease communications after Nov.25
"EXCEPT" extreme emergencies.
The task force broke radio silence at least 28 times between between Nov.26 and
Dec.7.
Since they have NO radio equipment,they must have used cell phones of crew
members !.

>Nope, try looking up skip distances.

I guess you never used a SW radio.

>A whole new conspiracy. good. that will make you happy.
>

Mother of all conspiracies is to hide truth in somewhere in Indiana and deny
everyone,including the members of Congress,access to them.

>> Reality is still available in paper if you goto your library you can
>> even touch it,literally,
>
>
>I see you have again chosen to avoid the facts. you are simply a loon and
>well known for it.

Did you go to the library?

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> >> Reality is still available in paper if you goto your library you can
> >> even touch it,literally,
> >
> >
> >I see you have again chosen to avoid the facts. you are simply a loon and
> >well known for it.
>
> Did you go to the library?

It's you that needs to read some history rather than the conspirowhacko
drivel you keep reading.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >No, the list doesn't go on - you do.
> >
> >No transmissions were made by the IJN, the Germans didn't have a clue it
was
> >happening and you are just a loon
>
> Please feel free to repeat the above thousands times more if it makes you
> happy,but it wont change anything , big lies do not last for forever,even
if
> they are under NSA protection.

When faced with the unfortunate truth that the transmitters were dismantled,
label it a lie.

Too much credible evidence supports this.


>
> >No, the IJN records show they were dismantled.
> >
> >Reality. deal with it.
>
> Thats your reality Sir,not the reality of many who actualy listen and
report
> them.

Yes, I'm quite happy to accept that the real world (aka "my reality") is
different from your reality.

> Actually IJN ships were under orders to cease communications after Nov.25
> "EXCEPT" extreme emergencies.
> The task force broke radio silence at least 28 times between between
Nov.26 and
> Dec.7.
> Since they have NO radio equipment,they must have used cell phones of crew
> members !.

They didn't transmit, they documented why. deal with it.

>
> >Nope, try looking up skip distances.
>
> I guess you never used a SW radio.

Quite a few.

>
> >A whole new conspiracy. good. that will make you happy.
> >
>
> Mother of all conspiracies is to hide truth in somewhere in Indiana and
deny
> everyone,including the members of Congress,access to them.

Of course it is, now take your meds and behave yourself.

>When faced with the unfortunate truth that the transmitters were dismantled,
>label it a lie.
>
>Too much credible evidence supports this.

Yeah right,28 intercepted transmissions from the Task Force were actualy sent
by Outer Space Aliens masquerading as Japanase Sailors at this time.

>Yes, I'm quite happy to accept that the real world (aka "my reality") is
>different from your reality.

Enjoy it,but I would rather stick to the reality behind NSA curtain (aka "vault
reality")

>hey didn't transmit, they documented why. deal with it.

Yeah right,they were outer space aliens as I mentioned before.

>Quite a few.
>
Good,then you should not be surpised to hear Task Force transmissions in CA.


>Of course it is, now take your meds and behave yourself.

Do you think that NSA fired formidable barrages of withdrawal notices for
pre-Pearl Harbor documents after 1999 just make me behave right?

>> Did you go to the library?
>
>It's you that needs to read some history rather than the conspirowhacko
>drivel you keep reading.
>

Do you mean the history manufactured by McCollum to cover the real history
engineered by McCollum?

In article >,
on 15 Jun 2004 05:33:03 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >A 70+ year old book ?
> >Sure, I have time to find a copy.
>
> Much better than new books.

Then why should we take you arguments that new information on Pearl harbor
is more acurate or truthful than the orginal reports ?



> >A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines.
>
> Exact cause of explosion is still not known,offical 1898 version was a spanish
> mine !.

The exact cause may never be know. I am aware of the original official
version.

> One thing is sure it was no accident and Spanians had nothing to do with it.
> Maybe Aliens masquarading as Spanians did it.

Now did you intend to contradict yourself ? Most naval experts consider it
to have been a coal bunker fire next to a powder magazine.


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 15 Jun 2004 05:18:39 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

>
> Actualy Kimmel sent 46 warships to open sea to the safety in late November
> without notifying Washington.
> When White house learned of Kimmels move Washington ordered all ships to return
> to the base.
> Battleships and their crews were expendable and their intended role was playing
> sitting ducks.
> For much more information please check out:
> http://www.thenewamerican.com/tna/2001/06-04-2001/vol7no12_facts.htm

Your "source" returns document not found.
And I'm not talking about normal training sorties. I'm talking about the
mission to ferry a USMC fighter squadron to Wake.

And the fact that Adm Halsey, with all the same information that Adm Kimmel
had stated he intended to shoot down any Japanese aircraft he encountered
and sink any IJN ships that he might find.

Care to explain why he drew different conclusions from teh same info his
boss had ?





--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

>hen why should we take you arguments that new information on Pearl harbor
>is more acurate or truthful than the orginal reports ?

The mentioned book was about Ft.Sumter incident not for Pearl Harbor and author
based his case on (Union) war department documents,that means these documents
were available for the historians.

On other hand,recently surfaced documents were withheld from everbody,including
the Members of the Congress.
In other words,the Members of Congress were authorized to investigate Pearl
Harbor incident on behalf of American People,but they were not authorized to
see some critical Pearl Harbor documents,much less mere mortals.

If McCollum were Lincoln's personal routing officer the Author might not find
anything in War Department files implicating Lincoln administration.

>The exact cause may never be know. I am aware of the original official
>version.

>Now did you intend to contradict yourself ? Most naval experts consider it
>to have been a coal bunker fire next to a powder magazine.
>

So coal caught fire in a very politically correct location and time.

In article >,
on 16 Jun 2004 12:46:12 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

>
> It was long presumed that as Japanase Fleet approached Hawaii it maintained
> complete radio silence.This is a total lie.The Fleet barely barely observed
> discredition,let alone silence.
> McCollums OPI intercepted and translated various Naval dispatches some clearly
> revealing that That PH was the target.
> The Most significant of them the was following,sent from Adm.Yamamato to the
> Japanase first air fleet on November 26.
> "The Task force,keeping its movement strickly secret and maintaining close
> guard aganist submarines and aircraft,shall advance into HAwaian waters and
> upon the very opening of the hostilities shall attack main force of US fleet
> and deal it a mortal blow.First air raid planned for the dawn of x-day.Exact
> date to be given by later order"

Umm, you do know that Adm Yamamoto was in the home waters on one of the
battleships ?
And that the "First Air Fleet" WAS the Pearl Harbor attack force.
So this aledged interecpts was of a transmision to NOT from the attack
force.

Also, just where does that quote come from ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 19 Jun 2004 16:28:25 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >> Did you go to the library?
> >
> >It's you that needs to read some history rather than the conspirowhacko
> >drivel you keep reading.
> >
>
> Do you mean the history manufactured by McCollum to cover the real history
> engineered by McCollum?
>

Isn't he one of your prize sources ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

In article >,
on 20 Jun 2004 03:48:41 GMT,
Denyav attempted to say .....

> >hen why should we take you arguments that new information on Pearl harbor
> >is more acurate or truthful than the orginal reports ?
>
> The mentioned book was about Ft.Sumter incident not for Pearl Harbor and author
> based his case on (Union) war department documents,that means these documents
> were available for the historians.
>
> On other hand,recently surfaced documents were withheld from everbody,including
> the Members of the Congress.
> In other words,the Members of Congress were authorized to investigate Pearl
> Harbor incident on behalf of American People,but they were not authorized to
> see some critical Pearl Harbor documents,much less mere mortals.
>
> If McCollum were Lincoln's personal routing officer the Author might not find
> anything in War Department files implicating Lincoln administration.
>

I was responding about McCollum.
You keep switching about like you arn't sure of yoru story.


> >The exact cause may never be know. I am aware of the original official
> >version.
>
> >Now did you intend to contradict yourself ? Most naval experts consider it
> >to have been a coal bunker fire next to a powder magazine.
> >
>
> So coal caught fire in a very politically correct location and time.

No, coal bunker fires were known in the period to burn for weeks before
flairing up.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

>And the fact that Adm Halsey, with all the same information that Adm Kimmel
>had stated he intended to shoot down any Japanese aircraft he encountered
>and sink any IJN ships that he might find.

Actually Kimmel acted before Halsey and sent 46 ships to open sea without
notifying WAshington in late Nov.

Who countermanded Kimmel's orders and ordered Fleet to return to the base?
Washington (Stark)

Halsey issued his plans AFTER Washington ordered the Fleet back to Pearl Harbor
(His Carriers were part of 46 ship Grand Exercise) as a 25-ship scaled down
version of Kimmels original plan.

But even Halseys scaled down exercise plan was too much for the
Washington,They ordered Halsey to use his carriers to transport planes to Wake
and Midway.
Order came again from Stark.

Why Washington countermanded Kimmels orders and ordered 46-ship fleet to return
to Pearl Harbor as Japanase Task was steaming towards Hawaii?

1)Japanase might abort their mission if they knew US was prepared and waiting
for them.
(That would mean a total failure of McCollum plan)

2)Even if they'd not aborted the mission,PSYOP value of a naval engagement at
open sea would be much less than Pearl Harbor.
Washington knew that if two fleets met at sea and engaged each other there
always might be questions about who attacked first.
(Limited success for McCollum plan,US probably would enter WWII but probably
not so united without shock and awe effect of Pearl Harbor)

Washington had no interest in deterring Japanase or stopping them before they
dropped bombs over HAwaii.

On contrary,Washington wanted to make Task Forces journey between Nov,26 and
Dec,7 as comfortable and easy as possible.
To make it happen they even tried to create a shipping-free zone,so that the
Task force could steam toward Hawaii without worrying about sightings.

>From: Tank Fixer

>
>In article >,
> on 15 Jun 2004 05:33:03 GMT,
> Denyav attempted to say .....

>
>> >A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines.
>>
>> Exact cause of explosion is still not known,offical 1898 version was a
>spanish
>> mine !.
>
>The exact cause may never be know. I am aware of the original official
>version.
>
>> One thing is sure it was no accident and Spanians had nothing to do with
>it.
>> Maybe Aliens masquarading as Spanians did it.
>
>Now did you intend to contradict yourself ? Most naval experts consider it
>to have been a coal bunker fire next to a powder magazine.
>
>
>--
>When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
>variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
>
>
>
>
>
>

>From: Tank Fixer

>
>In article >,
> on 15 Jun 2004 05:33:03 GMT,
> Denyav attempted to say .....
>

>
>> >A fire in a coal bunker adjacent to one of the powder magazines.
>>
>> Exact cause of explosion is still not known,offical 1898 version was a
>spanish
>> mine !.
>
>The exact cause may never be know. I am aware of the original official
>version.
>
>> One thing is sure it was no accident and Spanians had nothing to do with
>it.
>> Maybe Aliens masquarading as Spanians did it.
>
>Now did you intend to contradict yourself ? Most naval experts consider it
>to have been a coal bunker fire next to a powder magazine.

In fact the boat WAS raised and inspected before being resunk at sea. There is
footage of the boat as it sank.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >> Did you go to the library?
> >
> >It's you that needs to read some history rather than the conspirowhacko
> >drivel you keep reading.
> >
>
> Do you mean the history manufactured by McCollum to cover the real history
> engineered by McCollum?

Try some books.

"Denyav" > wrote in message
...
> >When faced with the unfortunate truth that the transmitters were
dismantled,
> >label it a lie.
> >
> >Too much credible evidence supports this.
>
> Yeah right,28 intercepted transmissions from the Task Force were actualy
sent
> by Outer Space Aliens masquerading as Japanase Sailors at this time.

Lots more drivel. reality is not your friend is it?

>
> >Yes, I'm quite happy to accept that the real world (aka "my reality") is
> >different from your reality.
>
> Enjoy it,but I would rather stick to the reality behind NSA curtain (aka
"vault
> reality")


The problem of course is that you have never been behind the "NSA curtain",
it's all just fantasy.

>
> >hey didn't transmit, they documented why. deal with it.
>
> Yeah right,they were outer space aliens as I mentioned before.
>

Certainly more credible than anything else you have raised.

> >Quite a few.
> >
> Good,then you should not be surpised to hear Task Force transmissions in
CA.
>

But very surprised to get a credible bearing with 1940s tech.

Of course, since those Txs were not made, its all moot.

>
> >Of course it is, now take your meds and behave yourself.
>
> Do you think that NSA fired formidable barrages of withdrawal notices for
> pre-Pearl Harbor documents after 1999 just make me behave right?

Nope, I suspect it was done to make sure that there was little hint as to
where current decrypt capabilities are.

But then reality is not your friend, is it?

Ah yes the near total erase and change the subject approach, take 2.

denyav wrote in message ...

Actually I wrote the first set of text,

>> I just love these sorts of conspiracy theories, they provide endless hours
>> of laughter. It was to be expected Stinnett would make his appearance,
>> his use of the famed McCollum Memo.
>>
>> By the way if you really want to have us believe Stinnett is the
>> authority check out his page 324 of his hardcover edition
>> where he states "There is no reliable evidence, found by the
>> author, that establishes how much of the 5 - Num [JN25]
>> could be deciphered, translated and read by naval cryptographers
>> in 1941". Now go back and read the book where it assumes,
>> his opinion, his assumption, the USN could read the signals
>> Stinnett wants them to have read, including the ones he tries
>> to pretend were sent by radio instead of hand delivered.
>> Stinnett has no idea what the USN could read, he simply gives
>> his opinion.
>
>Stinnett is the man who discovered that truthful answers to Pearl
>Harbor controversy secreted in bomb proof vaults,withheld from two
>congressional investigations and from American People.

Yes folks, Robert Stinnett wrote a book where he relied on the US
intercepting and decoding key IJN messages, then at the end of the
book he told us all he had no idea what the US decoding abilities
were. Just ignore the fact all through the book it is assumed the
needed messages were decoded as required. It does help him
when he ignores the change over from the A to the B version of JN-25
in late 1940, just assumed the success against the A version carried
over to the B version, which was a different code book.

Stinnett simply ignores the IJN code book upgrade of December
1940 in order to make his book work. That is the blinding of
allied intelligence after making good progress into the initial code
book "A" (hence the classification of the code in use in 1941 as
JN-25 "B") is simply ignored by Stinnett. When challenged about
this on his web site he simply failed to respond, except to complain
about spelling errors and insist on "correct terminology". Taking
Stinnett's word is a bad move.

If you want a fun exercise in fact checking try and find a Stinnett
footnote that actually backs up the claims in the text.

So change the subject, peddle Stinnett's fiction about Pearl then
peddle his fiction about US archives.

Also note below which section McCollum was in, not OP-20-GY
(codebreakers), the deleted claim was,

"The architect of FDRs Japan &Pearl Harbor game plan was McCollum
and McCollum was also,what a surprise !!,head of navy intelligence
unit responsible IJN dispatches."

This claim had to go, along with Pearl Harbor the movie as a source,
the British knew more than the US and so on.

I pinched the memo "highlights" from another post, note how the
memo is addressed to the directors, not someone in the white
house, yet it is supposed to make it to FDR in time for him to
make it the lunchtime conversation the next day, the "proof" FDR
saw the memo, just ignore the diary of the person FDR lunched with.

"Op-16-F-2 ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) 7 October 1940
Memorandum For The Directors
Subject: ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION IN THE PACIFIC AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR ACTION OF THE UNITED STATES..."

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British
bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore."

The USN did not use British bases until after the war started.
There was a conference in Manila about cooperation but it
ended with the sighting of the IJN invasion convoys heading
for Malaya. So this never happened pre war.

By the way the German Japanese naval base agreement
had been signed in 1940 or earlier.

"B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities
and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies" (now Indonesia)."

As for point A. Never happened pre war.

"C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang
Kai-shek."

30 aircraft in 1940, 141 in 1941, compared with 1,507 for the
British in 1940 and 5,249 in 1941. The USSR received more
aircraft than China, in fact the "other foreign" column has 787
aircraft delivered at the US factories. All possible aid would
have been a lot more aircraft for a start.

By the way the 30 aircraft for China in 1940 were trainers,
70 of the 1941 aircraft were trainers, 53 fighters, 18 light bombers.

So I presume the German sale of 12 aircraft to China in 1937
is an indicator Germany is giving all aid as well?

How about the German military advisors present on the Chinese
side in the late 1930s? I think they were withdrawn in 1939.

"D. Send a division of long-range heavy cruisers to the western
Pacific, the Philippines and Singapore."

Didn't happen, hint Manila is in the western pacific, it had a heavy
and a light cruiser plus the occasional extra cruiser passing through.

"E. Send two divisions of submarines to the western Pacific."

There were already USN submarines based in Manila, and the
memo's ideas of reinforcements was not followed. As a guide
to the changes note the USN had 96 submarines available, some
in reserve, in September 1939, the older boats were brought out
of reserve after war began in Europe and the total number
available grew steadily to 112 by the end of November 1941.

By the way USN submarine deployments to Manila from
DANFS, according to my by hand counts.

11/24 (yes 24) onward S-36, S-37, S-38, S-39, S-40, S-41

7/1925 to 5/1932 S-30, S-31, S-32, S-33, S-34, S-35

So until the depression the USN had 12 submarines present.

12/39 onward Porpoise, Pike, Tarpon, Perch, Pickerel, Permit

So the 12 submarine force is restored.

1939 Searaven "two years before war" my bet it should be with the
5 following submarines to make another 6 ship squadron and
arrived at the end of 1940.

1940 Seawolf (autumn)

10 or 11/40 Stingray, Seadragon, Sealion
12/40 Shark

1941 month unknown Snapper (probably 11/41), Sailfish (after 3/41
at least since that was the month it started a refit in the US)

11/41 Salmon, Seal, Sturgeon, Sargo, Saury, Spearfish, Sculpin,
Swordfish, Skipjack

Total 29, the force at the start of the war, I think 4 were
refitting on 8 December.

"F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet, now in the Pacific, in
the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands."

Done before the memo was written, the memo is dated in October,
the basing decision was on 1 May 1940.

"G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for
undue economic concessions, Particularly oil."

Add the British as well, it made no sense for the US to
embargo oil if the Dutch and British would replace the
lost sales. The US did not need to do much to persuade
the Dutch, the Japanese idea of terms of trade did much
to persuade the Dutch extra trade was not worth it.

"H. Completely embargo all trade with Japan, in collaboration
with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire."

Finally happened, however the memo forgets to add the Dutch
to the embargo.

FDR had imposed trade embargoes on aviation fuel, lubricants
and high grade scrap metal on 25 July 1940. On 26 September
scrap iron was added to the list.

In the first week in October, that is just before the memo was written
the US ordered all Americans out of the far east, called up the naval
reserve and authorised Anglo-American staff talks in Singapore.
Additional supplies were sent to the Philippines as well.

Remember folks, the memo is supposed to be the blueprint, apparently
able to influence decisions before it was written.

The Japanese negotiations with the Dutch over oil finally ended in the
first week in October, with no gains for the Japanese.

"10. If by these means Japan could be led to commit an overt act
of war, so much the better. At all event we must be fully
prepared to accept the treat of war."

Yes, Japan preferred war to giving up the chance to colonise China.

So 8 recommendations, the first 4 were not followed, the fifth was not
followed at the time, though more submarines were sent and then even
more in late 1941, the sixth and seventh had already happened before
the memo was written, the eighth finally happened around 9 months
later and only after further Japanese expansion.

Just remember the memo is the claimed blueprint for US government
policy.

>As Late as 1995 the Joint Congressional investigation conducted by
>Sen.Thurman and and Rep.Franke was denied access to the Naval storage
>vault in Crane, IN
>Because of his efforts Naval Security Group Command agreed to transfer
>Crane files to National Archieves.
>"The Days of Deceipt" is based on what he found in first batch of
>released documents.
>After the days of deceipt appeared a strange thing happened,NSA
>immediately started withdrawing pre Pearl Harbor documents from
>Archive II.
>As of today almost 30 NSA withdrawal notices guarantee that pre Pearl
>Harbor documents discovered in Crane IN will be off limits to American
>People and their elected represantatives for another 60 years

In the early 1990s the U. S. Navy transferred all its cryptologic
archives from Crane, Indiana to the National Archives in
Washington. This includes 26,581 JN-25 intercepts from 1
September to 7 December. All of these are available for public
review.

Stinnett is trying to run the line the truth is out there, the documents
are missing, to defend against all the holes in his book. Hence the
above claims of hidden documents. All IJN messages had a serial
number, missing serials are assumed to be US hiding them, as
opposed to US not intercepting them.

>Your above mentioned quote from the book refers to percentage of
>deciphered japanase messages it might be 30% or might be 100%.

Yes folks, just keep peddling the fiction, ignore the documents that
say 0%.

>As I said before the book was based on documents found in first batch
>of Crane documents released in middle of 90s,and information revealed
>in documents astonishing,but crane documents reviewed by Stinnett was
>only a minuscule percentage of crane documents,by far not enough to
>say something definite about the percentage of Japanase messages
>deciphered and translated by US.

By the way folks, note Stinnett is very definite in the book about what
messages were decoded. Including ones the Japanese say were
never sent by radio. Stinnett is the truth bringer, even when he says
he has no proof it seems.

Also Stinnett was not the motivator for the release of the documents,
he took advantage of their release.

Stephen Budiansky, using the original USN designation
AN for what was later called JN-25B.

"Contemporaneous, month-by-month reports on the progress of the Navy
codebreakers, each date-stamped, cover the entire period 1940-41. They
cover the work of the entire unit known as OP-20-GY, the Navy cryptanalytic
office in Washington, and also report on the progress of the Navy
decryption units in Hawaii and Cavite. They show unambiguously that when
the AN codebook was changed on December 1940, and subsequently when the
additive tables used with the code were changed on August 1, 1941, the U.S.
Navy lost its ability to read this traffic altogether. By December 1, 1941,
only 3,800 of the 30,000-plus code groups and 2,500 of the 50,000 additives
in AN had been recovered. (Most of the recovered code groups were those for
numerals, an even further limitation on reading.) "

Also note,

"None of the messages found in the "Pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese Naval
Dispatches" file mention Pearl Harbor by name. (This file is found in
National Archives at College Park, RG 38, Crane Files, CNSG 5830/115; most
of the messages have also have been reprinted in "Pearl Harbor Revisited:
United States Navy Communications Intelligence, 1924-1941," an unclassified
monograph published by the National Security Agency in 1994.)"

The USN went back in 1945/46 and broke out as many of the pre war
messages as it could to see what they could have told. One of the
favourite tricks is to claim the 1946 dates are faked.

>> The conspiracy here is one where people are paid for telling other
>> people what they want to hear. The truth is to be ignored, the money
>> does the talking, be poorer for being lied to and then be unwilling to
>> admit the mistake, and so make yourself even poorer.
>
>Official Version here is the one where the officials are paid for
>telling the public what their bosses want.This is one important
>difference.

Yes folks, ignore the many non official probes into Pearl Harbor
that conclude the US did not know, just try and pretend it is all
official history. Hundreds of books, articles and so on.

>Another important difference between offical story tellers and
>conspiracy loons is the following:Offical story tellers have
>priviledge to distort or completely withhold information whereas
>conspiracy loons cannot even dream of having such priviledges.

Think about this one folks, the conspiracy loons apparently do not
have the privileges to lie and distort, they must be officially granted
it seems. So the conspiracy theories become officially sanctioned,
which makes them wrong of course, as the official works are
classified as wrong.

Ah a good laugh does wonders.

>> However the really fun thing is the way the fiction in Stinnett is to
>> be enhanced, by promoting McCollum. No longer is he the Far East
>> expert in the Office of Naval Intelligence, no he is promoted to the
>> command of either ONI (Captain or Admiral rank) or the head of
>> OP-20-GYP, the USN organisation charged with breaking Japanese
>> codes, it was originally called OP-20-GY.
>>
>> Also the famed memo never went further than his boss, nowhere
>> near FDR.

> The Famed Memo did not need to go anywhere,it became offical Japan
>policy of FDR administration.

Yes folks, the memo, which no one beyond the writer and his boss saw
became US government policy. Presumably by telepathy. Just try and
ignore minor points like the decision to move the Pacific fleet to Hawaii
predates the memo.

See the memo above to note the gap between reality and the claims.

>> By the way if the latest attempt at fiction is to somehow pretend
>> the USN decryption section did not do the work on "purple" it shows
>> an even bigger lack of reality. The "purple" work overloaded the
>> section, slowing down all work. The USN had only one section of
>> cryptographers and security cleared language experts.
>>
>> Finally all the IJN documents and survivors agree the force did not
>> transmit after leaving their usual harbours. See for example the
>> surviving logs, the 1942 IJN after action report and the post war
>> interrogations. The idea Yamamoto would be so stupid as to
>> put his strike force in a harbour that could only be contacted by
>> radio is a joke.
>>
>> The Japanese Navy took control over the cable station at Hitokappu
>> Bay. Also, there was a marine cable between Nemuro, Hokkaido
>> and Shana, Etorofu in 1941 which was then tied to the telegraph
>> office at Hitokappu Bay. Source. Recollection of Mr. Hirokazu
>> Kawguchi of Hachioji City in Tokyo who was born at Shana in
>> 1923 and worked at the Shana cable office.
>>
>> Next, there was a daily air courier service between Ominato and
>> Hitokappu Bay to transfer documents received from Tokyo by air
>> and to send documents to Tokyo by air while the 1st Air Fleet was
>> at Hitokappu Bay. Source. ?History on Communications? by
>> Admiral Susumiiro Ishiguru (of Strike Force experience) (Tokyo:
>> Tokyo Reserve Police Association 1953).
>
>Who told Yamamato that their Naval code was broken?

Yes folks, just try and change the subject, the IJN says it did not
transmit, in logs written at the time, in the wartime after action
report and during the post war interrogations. This has to be
ignored. The idea Yamamoto was so stupid as to park his
top secret task force in a place where there was only radio
communications has to be ignored.

Just ignore the way traffic analysis works, the use of call signs
on messages to gain an idea what is going on, the volume and
size of messages. Then add direction finding on transmitters.

No folks, the IJN is assumed to be completely ignorant of any
sort of radio discipline or deception techniques.

The conspiracy needs the IJN in on the act from1941 on.

Navies are well aware of the need to limit radio traffic, they try to
do it as much as possible, the IJN understood the reasons why and
acted accordingly.

>Even today you can intercept any radio transmission easily,but if you
>cannot decode and decipher it,its useless.

Know nothing about the uses of traffic analysis and direction
finding I see.

>Even after Pearl Harbor IJN continued to use the same code because
>they were not aware that it was broken.
>Radio messages sent with unbroken or unbreakable code is as safe as
>courier messages,if not more.

Yes folks, just ignore the fact you can learn a lot from the call signs,
who is talking to who, the volume of traffic and the movements of
mobile transmitters.

It is amusing to see the idea couriers are less secure than radio
transmissions, presumably why no one uses couriers any more.

As Professor Kimball wrote: "It seems to me that to brand WSC
and/or FDR as conspirators requires that they be seen as evil
geniuses. But for them to allow the U.S. Fleet to be clobbered
means they were stupid. That doesn't compute." "

The rest of the post is simply text that could not be replied to,

By the way folks, the conspiracy claims are dropped, instead we
have something totally different dropped in.

Deleted text,

"You forgot item 4) the conspiracy theory around the start of the war
and the claims the Maine was deliberately sabotaged by the US.
The non real event.

You see the fact the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 is known
and understood. The added "facts" of a conspiracy are the
contributions of people who cannot cope with reality. "

Translation do not deal with the issues on their merits, invent crimes
from years ago and use those as an excuse to do what you want to
do, above all do not think.

I note the fun things like the URL for the congressional petition transcript
makes note of the Japanese consulate's words about a surprise attack
being possible, a message not broken out before the attack, to accuse
Washington of short changing the field commanders.

If the assessment is a surprise attack was possible what does that say
of two things,

1) the size of the defences
2) the alertness of the defences.

1) Is largely Washington determined, 2) is locally determined. But do
not worry, erase item 2 and carry on with the field commanders did
nothing wrong line.

Yes folks, understand, look for your facts in Hollywood movies, just
add the words you want to historical documents and so on. It is
quite simple, since unwelcome reality can be wished away just
decide the preferred outcome and adjust the preferred facts
accordingly.

Denyav is a CIA/FBI/ABC/CBS/DKNY/USN/USAAF, oh what the
heck, AAA (many organisations deleted) to ZZZZZ plant. Here to
try and improve the reputation of the US by making absolutely
absurd claims about it, so no one believes the real claims.

By the way note below the talk is all about the missing evidence,
but we are told 99.99% is available.

Deleted text, on the Congressional moves,

"
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&dbname=cp106&&r_n=hr945.106&sel=TOC_545749&

Go look up the other items included, the Indianapolis sinking and
the waiver on time limits for decorations. "

http://www.ukans.edu/carrie/docs/texts/kimmel.htm

By the way the claim trying to be defended is the idea Kimmel hurled
such accusations at FDR etc. Instead we have the family members
putting the best case forward as to why Washington deserves some
of the blame.

The transcript indicates the accusations were the usual ones, the
people in Washington made the errors (not the conspiracy) and
the people in Pearl paid the price. Note the transcript is not about
prior knowledge of the attack, only the blame game afterwards.
However when you want to invent fiction just change this to
conspiracy accusations.

By the way in the above text Professor Gannon claims 1,000 PBY
patrol planes were sent to the British pre Pearl Harbor when he
calculates Pearl needed 200 for all round patrols but only had 49.
The British (meaning RAF, RCAF. RNZAF and RAAF) received
somewhere around 3/4 of this figure for the entire war.

The US produced a whole 410 Patrol bombers in 1941, up from
34 in 1940, 22 Martin Mariners (PBM), 6 Consolidated Coranados
(PB2Y) and 416 Catalinas (PBY) 1940 to 1941. The PBY had been
in production pre war, with around 200 delivered by the end of 1939.

Of course you need to remove from the totals the 41 patrol bombers
delivered in December 1941 and probably the 54 delivered in October
and November 1941 as not being available to sent to Hawaii in time.
Also noting the pre war deliveries, starting in 1936, were lower powered
versions, 1,800 to 2,000 HP versus 2,400 for the 1940 on versions

So we have around 600 patrol bombers with the necessary range built
and available to the USN and everyone else, less the attrition of normal
flying, 200 of which are needed for Pearl Harbor. Presumably then over
200 are needed for the Philippines, then comes the U-boat threat to the
US east coast plus Panama then comes the British requirement. The
British are useful, they give feedback on actual combat operations. Do
not forget aircraft for training operations as well plus the inevitable losses.

Kimmel is allowed "lack of resources" but Washington is not. Nice use
of logic.

So what's that say 600 aircraft, less around 1/2 for obsolete types, for
training and attrition, and we have 300 suitable aircraft. Pearl wants
200, the Philippines wants more, the east coast wants some, the
British want some, the training system wants more so it can up the
training rate and so on.

Pearl Harbor was given 49 aircraft, enough to continuously cover an
arc of 90 degrees according to Professor Gannon, or the approaches
from the Japanese mandated islands. How many were actually flying
such searches on the 5th, 6th and 7th?

Gone looking for this evidence? Just jump to conspiracy theory, instead
of something like they decided it looked like the Navy was being kind to
its own.

Deleted text,

"Putting words into Kimmel's mouth now I see. Kimmel's defence was
that he was deprived of information he needed, mainly messages from
the local Japanese consulate and timely warning of the time the last
Japanese message was supposed to be presented to the US. There
was nothing said about senior leaders wanting the attack to happen."

On claims the inquiries were rigged,

"I like this, if the one entity argument is followed then the claimed let
off for Kimmel is the rigged result, it was an all Navy affair."

Ah yes the movie Pearl Harbor is your guide to US intelligence
actions in 1941, but wait, there is more, since the movie is a joke
on this point the need is to imply the British did it. Just ignore the
way the British had more pressing matters on their hands, that
the US was leading the way against Japanese diplomatic traffic
and the British and US were sharing IJN code recovery work.
So what one knew the other did as well.

Yes folks, Kimmel was where he should be, no matter where you
go, there you are.

Note by the way the attempt to paint the inquiry as the absolutely right
result, despite claiming not to have seen the evidence presented to it.
The USN is the straight organisation, despite the fact it would have
been doing the decoding of those wonder messages, it is the one
that holds the "truth", everything else is wrong. The conspiracy does
not apply to the naval inquiry, it could never have been rigged of
course, it has the "right" result, so everything else was rigged.

What did the inquiry clear Kimmel of, dereliction of duty, lack of
judgement?

Standard conspiracy stuff, the right answer is out there, somewhere,
pick your preferred outcome.

Previously before the next text was another standard claim about
conspiracies, as usual the claim has to be deleted and the subject changed.

I like this, especially since I posted text showing how the War Warning
messages were the same around the Pacific. And MacArthur certainly
did not lose more men and equipment that the people in Hawaii in the
opening day of the war.

What I really like is the duck, unable to answer the text, so change the
subject.

"By the way the above logic implies the Japanese could have invaded
the Philippines, Wake and Guam, killing and capturing Americans and
the US would have allowed this. The US did not need Pearl Harbor to
enter the Pacific war. The IJN started sinking US merchant ships just
before the attack went in."

Try and read history, it provides answers like, 1) too far away to know
exactly what was going on, 2) MacArthur controlling much of the
information flow, 3) The low expectations about holding the Philippines,
4) The reality moving against MacArthur would provoke a reaction in
Washington, being seen as an attempt by FDR to rid himself of an
unwanted General.

Deleted text,

It would be nice to know the source of the claimed Kimmel words, it
seems his lifetime's output is being searched for any claim he made,
no proof offered.

Remarkable line being run, the US is the source of all evil but the US
is so good, so amazing, it cannot be defeated, only betrayed from
within. No one can launch an unexpected attack on the US, it sees
and knows all, I must ask the US where my favourite pen has ended up.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.