Subject: Re: Garmin too big for their britches? (Fixed Pricing)
From: (TripodBill)
Date: 7/14/2004 12:09 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: >

Many readers appropriately picked up on one of the most important issues in my
earlier post: Minimum Retail Price Policy (i.e., controls). For those that are
still interested in the subject and are of the "pilot persuasion" here's an
update of what you can expect at the Oshkosh show this year. You may recall
from my previous post that I relayed information from a friend RE: Garmin's new
price policy on the GPSMAP 296 at SunNFun. Well, if you are headed to EAA's
Oshkosh show this year, there is good and bad news. Good news: The older GPSMAP
196 will be cheaper this year at about $795. More Good news: There will be new
low-end handhelds in B&W and color to replace the aging GPS III Pilot and
GPSMAP 295. The new handhelds will both be in the GPSMAP 76 form factor. (Not
sure if that's a great design for yoke mounting, but I'll leave that to pilots
to decide.) Bad news? ALL MODELS will now be under the Minimum Retail Price
Policy, meaning no dealer at the show will be competing with another dealer.
Buy from whoever you like, 'cause they can't sell it to you any cheaper. Any
dealer that screws up and offers free shipping, a package deal, or discounted
accessory will be canceled by Garmin. Garmin has now fixed prices on all their
aviation products. It will be just a matter of time before they do the same in
the automotive, outdoor and marine product lines. Happy shopping!

-Bill Hicks


(for more info, see sci.geo.satellite-nav newsgroup)

Bill,

I used to have a similar reaction to these kinds of activities by
manufacturers. But Wal Mart, and the internet, have somewhat changed my
opinion.

It's gotten where you cannot get service from ANYONE, for ANYTHING, ANYMORE.
The reason is too much pricing info.

I would be happy to relate how this works to any given industry, but here is
a Garmin example.

You want a handheld GPS. You want quality, but you don't necessarily need
every bell and whistle. You start shopping by reading the internet, talking
to friends, and asking questions of sales people. Then you start going over
what you learn and look for the best price for the model you want.

The only problem is that the guy who put up an informative website, paid for
someone intelligent and well mannered to answer questions, and otherwise did
things to keep demand up has a higher cost of sale than the chain smoker
with a cheap website and a telephone in a rusty building. If Garmin wants
the first guy to stay in business, they have to do something to prevent
their active distributors from being constantly under cut by box movers.
And that is that.

Many schemes have been tried, but the simplest one, that costs the least,
ends up being price policing. We would all like to have a knowledgeable
pilot give us a professional knowledge transfer for our important purchases,
but we consistently buy from the cheap guy who provides an idiot clerk with
a bad attitude caused by ill treatment from idiot management.

Perhaps you make your living from a business where this sort of thing is not
a problem, but to many business this has become a real issue.


"TripodBill" > wrote in message
...
> Subject: Re: Garmin too big for their britches? (Fixed Pricing)
> From: (TripodBill)
> Date: 7/14/2004 12:09 AM Central Standard Time
> Message-id: >
>
> Many readers appropriately picked up on one of the most important issues
in my
> earlier post: Minimum Retail Price Policy (i.e., controls). For those that
are
> still interested in the subject and are of the "pilot persuasion" here's
an
> update of what you can expect at the Oshkosh show this year. You may
recall
> from my previous post that I relayed information from a friend RE:
Garmin's new
> price policy on the GPSMAP 296 at SunNFun. Well, if you are headed to
EAA's
> Oshkosh show this year, there is good and bad news. Good news: The older
GPSMAP
> 196 will be cheaper this year at about $795. More Good news: There will be
new
> low-end handhelds in B&W and color to replace the aging GPS III Pilot and
> GPSMAP 295. The new handhelds will both be in the GPSMAP 76 form factor.
(Not
> sure if that's a great design for yoke mounting, but I'll leave that to
pilots
> to decide.) Bad news? ALL MODELS will now be under the Minimum Retail
Price
> Policy, meaning no dealer at the show will be competing with another
dealer.
> Buy from whoever you like, 'cause they can't sell it to you any cheaper.
Any
> dealer that screws up and offers free shipping, a package deal, or
discounted
> accessory will be canceled by Garmin. Garmin has now fixed prices on all
their
> aviation products. It will be just a matter of time before they do the
same in
> the automotive, outdoor and marine product lines. Happy shopping!
>
> -Bill Hicks
>
>
> (for more info, see sci.geo.satellite-nav newsgroup)

Gotta raise the BS flag on this one. I don't buy it at all. I have gotten
absolutely ****TY service, MANY times from the "full-service", high dollar
"official dealers"... It ain't just the internet distributor working out of
a rental storage unit with grey market goods that gives you crappy
service!!!

Same issue has been around for YEARS in the SCUBA equipment industry. The
manufacturers strong arm dealers. So large numbers of people all go "grey
market" via the net, so the manufacturers threaten to not honor any warantee
for products bought outside the "official dealer network" (law suits are
pending...) SCUBA equipment is as expensive as the manufacturers want it to
be. The dealers still pay the same wholesale price, and determine their own
margins based upon any SPIFs. "Official Dealers" provide dog**** service
anyway, so why SHOULDN'T I go to the cheapest guy? I have to double check,
and sometimes fix their work anyway. My Golf Foxtrot bought a new regulator
and comp from an "Official Dealer" SCUBA shop. This is LIFE SUPPORT
equipment. They ****ed up the set up, and she ran out of air at 85 fsw
because of a free flowing reg. From your "full service", high dollar
"official dealer" no less...

So what if a dealer wants to sell a GPS below MSRP? Garmin makes the same
amount on their wholesale pricing. They are just trying to manipulate the
market a bit. Why don't you check out the WxWorx receiver for their marine
applications (where they have real competition.) Ain't no way in hell the
aviation version of the product will be less than $5K. The marine version is
on the market now, and less than $1K. I seriously doubt there will be much
difference in the boards...

Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know why
UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real slimy
feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes. Let's just
wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last summer
for legacy units ends up.

Our only hope is that Bendix/King can pull their collective head out of
their ass and build some truely competitive products to force Garmin into a
more competitive position.



"Dude" > wrote in message
...
> Bill,
>
> I used to have a similar reaction to these kinds of activities by
> manufacturers. But Wal Mart, and the internet, have somewhat changed my
> opinion.
>
> It's gotten where you cannot get service from ANYONE, for ANYTHING,
ANYMORE.
> The reason is too much pricing info.
>
> I would be happy to relate how this works to any given industry, but here
is
> a Garmin example.
>
> You want a handheld GPS. You want quality, but you don't necessarily need
> every bell and whistle. You start shopping by reading the internet,
talking
> to friends, and asking questions of sales people. Then you start going
over
> what you learn and look for the best price for the model you want.
>
> The only problem is that the guy who put up an informative website, paid
for
> someone intelligent and well mannered to answer questions, and otherwise
did
> things to keep demand up has a higher cost of sale than the chain smoker
> with a cheap website and a telephone in a rusty building. If Garmin wants
> the first guy to stay in business, they have to do something to prevent
> their active distributors from being constantly under cut by box movers.
> And that is that.
>
> Many schemes have been tried, but the simplest one, that costs the least,
> ends up being price policing. We would all like to have a knowledgeable
> pilot give us a professional knowledge transfer for our important
purchases,
> but we consistently buy from the cheap guy who provides an idiot clerk
with
> a bad attitude caused by ill treatment from idiot management.
>
> Perhaps you make your living from a business where this sort of thing is
not
> a problem, but to many business this has become a real issue.
>
>
> "TripodBill" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Subject: Re: Garmin too big for their britches? (Fixed Pricing)
> > From: (TripodBill)
> > Date: 7/14/2004 12:09 AM Central Standard Time
> > Message-id: >
> >
> > Many readers appropriately picked up on one of the most important issues
> in my
> > earlier post: Minimum Retail Price Policy (i.e., controls). For those
that
> are
> > still interested in the subject and are of the "pilot persuasion" here's
> an
> > update of what you can expect at the Oshkosh show this year. You may
> recall
> > from my previous post that I relayed information from a friend RE:
> Garmin's new
> > price policy on the GPSMAP 296 at SunNFun. Well, if you are headed to
> EAA's
> > Oshkosh show this year, there is good and bad news. Good news: The older
> GPSMAP
> > 196 will be cheaper this year at about $795. More Good news: There will
be
> new
> > low-end handhelds in B&W and color to replace the aging GPS III Pilot
and
> > GPSMAP 295. The new handhelds will both be in the GPSMAP 76 form factor.
> (Not
> > sure if that's a great design for yoke mounting, but I'll leave that to
> pilots
> > to decide.) Bad news? ALL MODELS will now be under the Minimum Retail
> Price
> > Policy, meaning no dealer at the show will be competing with another
> dealer.
> > Buy from whoever you like, 'cause they can't sell it to you any cheaper.
> Any
> > dealer that screws up and offers free shipping, a package deal, or
> discounted
> > accessory will be canceled by Garmin. Garmin has now fixed prices on all
> their
> > aviation products. It will be just a matter of time before they do the
> same in
> > the automotive, outdoor and marine product lines. Happy shopping!
> >
> > -Bill Hicks
> >
> >
> > (for more info, see sci.geo.satellite-nav newsgroup)
>
>

"Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in message
...
> >
> Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know why
> UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
> playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
> towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real slimy
> feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes. Let's
just
> wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last summer
> for legacy units ends up.
>

Exactly what taxes have they avoided?

Mike
MU-2

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
>
> "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > >
> > Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know
why
> > UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
> > playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
> > towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real slimy
> > feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes. Let's
> just
> > wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last
summer
> > for legacy units ends up.
> >
>
> Exactly what taxes have they avoided?
>
US taxes?

It's ironic, that some of the same people bitching are trying to get "a
better deal", but they trash Garmin for trying to get "a better deal".

"Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in message
...
> Gotta raise the BS flag on this one. I don't buy it at all. I have gotten
> absolutely ****TY service, MANY times from the "full-service", high dollar
> "official dealers"... It ain't just the internet distributor working out
of
> a rental storage unit with grey market goods that gives you crappy
> service!!!
>

First, there are no guarantees, but I can assume you did not go back to them
right? Why did you choose them in the first place?




> Same issue has been around for YEARS in the SCUBA equipment industry. The
> manufacturers strong arm dealers. So large numbers of people all go "grey
> market" via the net, so the manufacturers threaten to not honor any
warantee
> for products bought outside the "official dealer network" (law suits are
> pending...) SCUBA equipment is as expensive as the manufacturers want it
to
> be. The dealers still pay the same wholesale price, and determine their
own
> margins based upon any SPIFs. "Official Dealers" provide dog**** service
> anyway, so why SHOULDN'T I go to the cheapest guy? I have to double check,
> and sometimes fix their work anyway. My Golf Foxtrot bought a new
regulator
> and comp from an "Official Dealer" SCUBA shop. This is LIFE SUPPORT
> equipment. They ****ed up the set up, and she ran out of air at 85 fsw
> because of a free flowing reg. From your "full service", high dollar
> "official dealer" no less...
>

IT's not my dealer, so tell all your friends, tell the BBB, life's not 100%.
Don't like it, don't buy that brand any more! That is the whole point. If
the brand is controlling its distributors, then it should stand behind them,
and here your complaints. If not, DON"T BUY THAT BRAND.

> So what if a dealer wants to sell a GPS below MSRP? Garmin makes the same
> amount on their wholesale pricing. They are just trying to manipulate the
> market a bit. Why don't you check out the WxWorx receiver for their marine
> applications (where they have real competition.) Ain't no way in hell the
> aviation version of the product will be less than $5K. The marine version
is
> on the market now, and less than $1K. I seriously doubt there will be much
> difference in the boards...
>

They already conrol wholesale cost, so this is really isn't the point at
all. You have a choice, don't buy it if you don't like the price. Garmin
knows that this will lose some customers, but they hope to have a better
outcome in the long run.

> Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know why
> UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
> playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
> towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real slimy
> feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes. Let's
just
> wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last summer
> for legacy units ends up.
>

Slimy feeling? Corporate moved off shore? Do you have an actual example of
service from Garmin you did not approve of?


> Our only hope is that Bendix/King can pull their collective head out of
> their ass and build some truely competitive products to force Garmin into
a
> more competitive position.
>

Garmin was likely started in a garage like half the companies in the world.
Why don't you start a company and give everything away, while giving great
service. We will see how long you last before the conspiracy theories
start.

Its pretty obvious you have a Naderite fear of businesses. If not, I would
love to know what you do. Doing business with you is either hell or heaven.
I can't tell which.

They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.

Mike
MU-2


"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> >
> > "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in
> message
> > ...
> > > >
> > > Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really know
> why
> > > UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin starts
> > > playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their attitude
> > > towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real
slimy
> > > feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes.
Let's
> > just
> > > wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last
> summer
> > > for legacy units ends up.
> > >
> >
> > Exactly what taxes have they avoided?
> >
> US taxes?
>
> It's ironic, that some of the same people bitching are trying to get "a
> better deal", but they trash Garmin for trying to get "a better deal".
>
>

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in
> > message
> > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really
know
> > why
> > > > UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
starts
> > > > playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
attitude
> > > > towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real
> slimy
> > > > feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes.
> Let's
> > > just
> > > > wait and see how the WAAS upgrade that has been promised since last
> > summer
> > > > for legacy units ends up.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Exactly what taxes have they avoided?
> > >
> > US taxes?
> >
> > It's ironic, that some of the same people bitching are trying to get "a
> > better deal", but they trash Garmin for trying to get "a better deal".
> >
> >
>
>
>

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.
>
> Mike
> MU-2

Really?

>
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in
> > message
> > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really
know
> > why
> > > > UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
starts
> > > > playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
attitude
> > > > towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real
> slimy
> > > > feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Exactly what taxes have they avoided?
> > >
> > US taxes?

They pay US taxes on US earnings and Taiwan taxes on Taiwan earnings. I
don't think domiciling the company in the US would change things much.

Mike
MU-2


"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
>
> Really?
>
> >
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > ink.net...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in
> > > message
> > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > > > Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't really
> know
> > > why
> > > > > UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
> starts
> > > > > playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
> attitude
> > > > > towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a real
> > slimy
> > > > > feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge taxes.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Exactly what taxes have they avoided?
> > > >
> > > US taxes?
>
>

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> They pay US taxes on US earnings and Taiwan taxes on Taiwan earnings. I
> don't think domiciling the company in the US would change things much.
>

Domiciling OUTSIDE the US? AIUI, they are now "domiciled" as being from
Ireland.

But yet, if they are a US company, it makes no difference where their HQ is,
other than maybe avoiding LOCAL taxes. A US company that does operations
overseas might pay taxes overseas and not in the US (portion of
income)...unless you're the Heinz Company....



> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > > They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> >
> > Really?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > ink.net...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't
really
> > know
> > > > why
> > > > > > UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
> > starts
> > > > > > playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
> > attitude
> > > > > > towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a
real
> > > slimy
> > > > > > feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge
taxes.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Exactly what taxes have they avoided?
> > > > >
> > > > US taxes?
> >
> >
>
>

Right...

And that is why Arthur Andersen and KPMG and others made MILLION$$$ on
offshore banking / incorporation / tax schemes in the 90s...

In 1988, my old man paid more in taxes than ALL of Ashland Oil Corp, and
they were still US based.

It's all a game if you got the dough, lawyers, and accountants.


"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> They pay US taxes on US earnings and Taiwan taxes on Taiwan earnings. I
> don't think domiciling the company in the US would change things much.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > > They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> >
> > Really?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > ink.net...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote
in
> > > > message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't
really
> > know
> > > > why
> > > > > > UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
> > starts
> > > > > > playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
> > attitude
> > > > > > towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a
real
> > > slimy
> > > > > > feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge
taxes.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Exactly what taxes have they avoided?
> > > > >
> > > > US taxes?
> >
> >
>
>

>
> Garmin was likely started in a garage like half the companies in the
world.
> Why don't you start a company and give everything away, while giving great
> service. We will see how long you last before the conspiracy theories
> start.
>
> Its pretty obvious you have a Naderite fear of businesses. If not, I would
> love to know what you do. Doing business with you is either hell or
heaven.
> I can't tell which.
>
>

Garmin was a fairly well financed start up by some PhD EEs if I recall.

I have no fear of business. I am against wasting money. If I pay a dollar to
a "top service dealer" for a product I can order on the 'net for 0.50, I
expect my ass to be kissed. If not, I better damned well see an extra 0.50
value in my doing business with him.

My point is, from my experience over the past 5 years, "quality services"
have largely disappeared across the board. Everything is becoming
commoditized. I made the mistake of going to a "highly regarded" paint shop
for their "Perfect Paint" system for my airplane. They shafted me so bad, I
would have been better off going for the lowest bidder. I just don't have
the time or patience for that kind of crap anymore. If I can't trust them to
get it right the first time, then I will just go cheap, or put a "liquidated
damages" clause in the contract.

Either I suck at selecting aviation-related service providers, or
statistically service has degraded across the board.

My last annual I went to a new IA that was "raved" by other owners. He never
did everything I asked for. I just left it at that. This is after being
raped by an IA in Florida last year.

So tell me again why I need to pay $1 from an "official dealer" when I can
get the same thing through the 'net for 0.50??? How is that bad business?

If Garmin is demanding I go through one of their "official dealers", I have
to ask if I really need a Garmin now, or just wait a few months for a price
drop or grey market or ebay.

Don't take my word for it, Garmin's financials are a matter of public
record.

Mike
MU-2


"Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in message
...
> Right...
>
> And that is why Arthur Andersen and KPMG and others made MILLION$$$ on
> offshore banking / incorporation / tax schemes in the 90s...
>
> In 1988, my old man paid more in taxes than ALL of Ashland Oil Corp, and
> they were still US based.
>
> It's all a game if you got the dough, lawyers, and accountants.
>
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > They pay US taxes on US earnings and Taiwan taxes on Taiwan earnings. I
> > don't think domiciling the company in the US would change things much.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > ink.net...
> > > > They haven't avoided paying any US taxes.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > MU-2
> > >
> > > Really?
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > > > ink.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote
> in
> > > > > message
> > > > > > ...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Call it what it is, price fixing. They bought UPSAT (don't
> really
> > > know
> > > > > why
> > > > > > > UPS bought Apollo anyway.) Only a matter of time before Garmin
> > > starts
> > > > > > > playing nasty. They already started in my opinion with their
> > > attitude
> > > > > > > towards legacy product owners. I am a Garmin owner, but get a
> real
> > > > slimy
> > > > > > > feeling ever since they moved corporate off-shore to dodge
> taxes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Exactly what taxes have they avoided?
> > > > > >
> > > > > US taxes?
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Don't take my word for it, Garmin's financials are a matter of public
> record.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>

As well, see: http://nationalreview.com/ponnuru/ponnuru200404010842.asp and
http://www.techcentralstation.com/041504C.html

>
> "Mark T. Mueller" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > Right...
> >
> > And that is why Arthur Andersen and KPMG and others made MILLION$$$ on
> > offshore banking / incorporation / tax schemes in the 90s...
> >
> > In 1988, my old man paid more in taxes than ALL of Ashland Oil Corp, and
> > they were still US based.
> >
> > It's all a game if you got the dough, lawyers, and accountants.
>

>
> Garmin was a fairly well financed start up by some PhD EEs if I recall.
>
> I have no fear of business. I am against wasting money. If I pay a dollar
to
> a "top service dealer" for a product I can order on the 'net for 0.50, I
> expect my ass to be kissed. If not, I better damned well see an extra 0.50
> value in my doing business with him.
>

You are acting perfectly rational, as you should as a player in the market.
The problem is that if Garmin is to have any hope of demanding quality from
its dealers, then they have to not do business with the ones that give away
product at a commodity price. No one can give full service at a commodity
price as a distributor. Your behavior is fair, and so is Garmin's. If I
were a distributor, and I saw Garmin's products for sale on the net for 50%
off, I would punt Garmin. I might also demand they take back anything I
could not sell.


> My point is, from my experience over the past 5 years, "quality services"
> have largely disappeared across the board. Everything is becoming
> commoditized.

My point exactly, and a good part of the reason is too much price
information. I am not against the internet, but I think that businesses
have to react in some way if they want to have some control over the buyers'
experience. Garmin may not care how the product is moved, or they might.
But many places will not keep product in stock if they cannot get a good
margin. How many sales would Garmin lose if all the FBO's all carried AND
RECOMMENDED a competitor? It could happen if the competitor did a better
job of ensuring the FBO's were happy distributors.

I made the mistake of going to a "highly regarded" paint shop
> for their "Perfect Paint" system for my airplane. They shafted me so bad,
I
> would have been better off going for the lowest bidder. I just don't have
> the time or patience for that kind of crap anymore. If I can't trust them
to
> get it right the first time, then I will just go cheap, or put a
"liquidated
> damages" clause in the contract.
>

I am not sure how come they are "highly regarded". When dealing with
service like paint and AP, you are best to use personal referrals whenever
possible. The only other hints are the professionalism they present in the
sales process, and the presentability of their literature, shop, etc.

None of these are sure things, but that has never changed. Price has not
necessaril been a quality indicator with these businesses. That is not new.
I am talking about Manufacturers and their distribution systems.

> Either I suck at selecting aviation-related service providers, or
> statistically service has degraded across the board.
>

I think every generation thinks that.

> My last annual I went to a new IA that was "raved" by other owners. He
never
> did everything I asked for. I just left it at that. This is after being
> raped by an IA in Florida last year.
>
> So tell me again why I need to pay $1 from an "official dealer" when I can
> get the same thing through the 'net for 0.50??? How is that bad business?
>

You don't need to pay the dollar unless you want the product. If you can
get it for .50 then pay that. Just do not expect the guy who charges a
dollar, but also answers all your questions to stick around. He will go out
of business like the full service gas station.

> If Garmin is demanding I go through one of their "official dealers", I
have
> to ask if I really need a Garmin now, or just wait a few months for a
price
> drop or grey market or ebay.
>

Waiting is fair, and eBay is fair. The grey market is Garmin's problem as
well, but they have a right to only warrant product with a clean record (
originally purchased from an authorized dealer). Their policy appears to be
to warrant everything. That may not last if the price policing does not
work. Eventually, all the big players try everything.