I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

In a previous article, Jon Kraus > said:
>much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
>that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
>wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
>presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell

It's pretty god damned stupid to ask for a service without asking how much
it costs, and then complain when it costs more than you expected.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
PROGRAM - n. A magic spell cast over a computer allowing it to turn one's
input into error messages. v. tr.- To engage in a pastime similar to banging
one's head against a wall, but with fewer opportunities for reward.

I agree, to a point. I would have asked, but I wouldn't have expected it to
cosat anywhere near that amount. It's also pretty inconsiderate, and IMO
really bad business practice, to not mention up front that that particular
service might be quite pricey. I'd much rather pay for a couple of hours
heated hangar time (assuming that would be less). Barring that option, I'd
go buy a friggin' hairdryer and do it myself. Wonder what they'd charge for
the electricity?

FWIW, beware of any facility that has the word "jet" in its name. They're
used to big bucks.

mike regish

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, Jon Kraus > said:
> >much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> >that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> >wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> >presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
>
> It's pretty god damned stupid to ask for a service without asking how much
> it costs, and then complain when it costs more than you expected.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> PROGRAM - n. A magic spell cast over a computer allowing it to turn one's
> input into error messages. v. tr.- To engage in a pastime similar to
banging
> one's head against a wall, but with fewer opportunities for reward.

Paul,
I think that God is spelled with a capitol "G".

By the way, I did ask how much it was going to cost. They told me $12.50
a gallon. My stupidity was thinking that it would take 5 to 10 gallons
max. Even then $12.50 for a 50% mix of glycol and water is pretty damn
steep (I thought so anyway). I appreciate your support though....

Jon

Paul Tomblin wrote:

>In a previous article, Jon Kraus > said:
>
>
>>much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
>>that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
>>wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
>>presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
>>
>>
>
>It's pretty god damned stupid to ask for a service without asking how much
>it costs, and then complain when it costs more than you expected.
>
>
>

"Jon Kraus" wrote:

> I think that God is spelled with a capitol "G".

I think that "capital" is spelled with two letters "A."

I've never gone anyplace where I needed a preheat, much less a deice.
For future reference, what would they have charged for parking in a heated
hangar?

Now, would "damned" also have to capitalized in this context?

mike regish
"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message ...
Paul,
I think that God is spelled with a capitol "G".

By the way, I did ask how much it was going to cost. They told me $12.50 a gallon. My stupidity was thinking that it would take 5 to 10 gallons max. Even then $12.50 for a 50% mix of glycol and water is pretty damn steep (I thought so anyway). I appreciate your support though....

Jon

Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, Jon Kraus > said:
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell

It's pretty god damned stupid to ask for a service without asking how much
it costs, and then complain when it costs more than you expected.

In a previous article, "mike regish" > said:
>FWIW, beware of any facility that has the word "jet" in its name. They're
>used to big bucks.

That's for sure. That's one reason I would have asked the price of
*anything* (including the coffee in the waiting room) before saying "sure,
I'll take that".


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
You know the saying, every time you develop an idiot proof system they
develop a better type of idiot... and now you know who "they" are.
-- Matthew Malthouse

Even if God is the capitol of "The Universe"?

I know it is spelled with an "A" I just wanted to see if anyone got the
joke. Good for you... Yea in hindsight the heated hanger for 3 days
would have been substantially cheaper... unfortunately, they don't have
this option...

It sounds like you don't go fly to colder climates in the winter much.
In Michigan at this time of year it is very possible that you could use
either a pre-heat, deicing or both. For me the lesson is well
learned.... ask ahead about the services and the cost of those
services. Thanks for the post. Jon

Craig Prouse wrote:

>"Jon Kraus" wrote:
>
>
>
>>I think that God is spelled with a capitol "G".
>>
>>
>
>I think that "capital" is spelled with two letters "A."
>
>I've never gone anyplace where I needed a preheat, much less a deice.
>For future reference, what would they have charged for parking in a heated
>hangar?
>
>
>

In article >, Paul Tomblin > wrote:

> It's pretty god damned stupid to ask for a service without asking how much
> it costs, and then complain when it costs more than you expected.

Yeah. Why, if you drank a cup of coffee and then they told you it was
$49.50, you'd be a fool to complain about it.

Do you own the place? Geeze.

Mike Beede

"Mike Beede" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Paul Tomblin
> wrote:
>
> > It's pretty god damned stupid to ask for a service without asking how
much
> > it costs, and then complain when it costs more than you expected.
>
> Yeah. Why, if you drank a cup of coffee and then they told you it was
> $49.50, you'd be a fool to complain about it.
>
And don't ask for their chocolate cookie recipe.

> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.

Jon, what in the world were you renting -- a Gulfstream?

If this charge was for a Spam Can, you NEED to write a letter to the owner
of this facility, and demand a refund. There is no way in the world
de-icing a Cessna/Piper/Beech should cost even 10% of what you were charged.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In a previous article, "mike regish" > said:
> By the way, I did ask how much it was going to cost. They told me
>$12.50 a gallon. My stupidity was thinking that it would take 5 to 10
>gallons max. Even then $12.50 for a 50% mix of glycol and water is
>pretty damn steep (I thought so anyway). I appreciate your support
>though....

Now *that* is outrageous. What did they do, pretend you were a 747 and
spray all the area 100 feet either side of you as well?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
There are mushrooms that can survive weeks, months without air or food.
They just dry out and when water comes back, they wake up again. And call
the helldesk about their password expiring. -- after Jens Benecke and Tanuki

"Tom S." > wrote in message
...
> > Yeah. Why, if you drank a cup of coffee and then they told you it was
> > $49.50, you'd be a fool to complain about it.
> >
> And don't ask for their chocolate cookie recipe.
>

The recipe is available at
http://www.neimanmarcus.com/store/service/nm_cookie_recipe.jhtml
(UL/hoax from http://makeshorter.com/?72Q42u62L)

> By the way, I did ask how much it was going to cost. They told me $12.50 a
gallon. My stupidity was thinking that it would take 5 > to 10 gallons max.
Even then $12.50 for a 50% mix of glycol and water is pretty damn steep (I
thought so anyway).

So they used 37 gallons? How many gallons does it normally take to de-ice
Cessna sized aircraft? I just checked the local airports pricing and it is
$50 +tax to "defrost" the plane in a heated hanger and/or $20 a gallon for
type I aircraft deice.

But wow, if it really took 37 gallons you would have been charged $740 at my
local airport.

"Greg Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:GFdyb.358499$HS4.3000688@attbi_s01...
> "Tom S." > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Yeah. Why, if you drank a cup of coffee and then they told you it was
> > > $49.50, you'd be a fool to complain about it.
> > >
> > And don't ask for their chocolate cookie recipe.
> >
>
> The recipe is available at
> http://www.neimanmarcus.com/store/service/nm_cookie_recipe.jhtml
> (UL/hoax from http://makeshorter.com/?72Q42u62L)
>

:~) (I was wondering if someone would pick that up)

"Brooks Hagenow" > wrote in message
.com...
> > By the way, I did ask how much it was going to cost. They told me $12.50
a
> gallon. My stupidity was thinking that it would take 5 > to 10 gallons
max.
> Even then $12.50 for a 50% mix of glycol and water is pretty damn steep (I
> thought so anyway).
>
> So they used 37 gallons? How many gallons does it normally take to de-ice
> Cessna sized aircraft? I just checked the local airports pricing and it
is
> $50 +tax to "defrost" the plane in a heated hanger and/or $20 a gallon for
> type I aircraft deice.
>
> But wow, if it really took 37 gallons you would have been charged $740 at
my
> local airport.

With 37 gallons they could have deiced Minnesota.

Jon Kraus wrote:
>
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.

Did you discuss this with them at all? Seems to me they probably misplaced the
decimal point.

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".

When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.
>
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA

Brooks Hagenow wrote:
>>By the way, I did ask how much it was going to cost. They told me $12.50 a
>
> gallon. My stupidity was thinking that it would take 5 > to 10 gallons max.
> Even then $12.50 for a 50% mix of glycol and water is pretty damn steep (I
> thought so anyway).
>
> So they used 37 gallons? How many gallons does it normally take to de-ice
> Cessna sized aircraft? I just checked the local airports pricing and it is
> $50 +tax to "defrost" the plane in a heated hanger and/or $20 a gallon for
> type I aircraft deice.
>
> But wow, if it really took 37 gallons you would have been charged $740 at my
> local airport.
>
>
I gererally use about 2 gallons when I do it with a bug sprayer. I have
seen small aircraft deiced with large equipment (Fire Hose). I dont
doubt 37 gallons could be used becasue it comes out so fast it just
doenot have time to work. Such equipment is really too bigg for a small
aircraft.

John Roncallo

A bucket truck with a firehose is exactly what they used. I should have
taken a picture because it really was a funny sight. JK

John Roncallo wrote:

> Brooks Hagenow wrote:
>
>>> By the way, I did ask how much it was going to cost. They told me
>>> $12.50 a
>>
>>
>> gallon. My stupidity was thinking that it would take 5 > to 10
>> gallons max.
>> Even then $12.50 for a 50% mix of glycol and water is pretty damn
>> steep (I
>> thought so anyway).
>>
>> So they used 37 gallons? How many gallons does it normally take to
>> de-ice
>> Cessna sized aircraft? I just checked the local airports pricing and
>> it is
>> $50 +tax to "defrost" the plane in a heated hanger and/or $20 a
>> gallon for
>> type I aircraft deice.
>>
>> But wow, if it really took 37 gallons you would have been charged
>> $740 at my
>> local airport.
>>
>>
> I gererally use about 2 gallons when I do it with a bug sprayer. I
> have seen small aircraft deiced with large equipment (Fire Hose). I
> dont doubt 37 gallons could be used becasue it comes out so fast it
> just doenot have time to work. Such equipment is really too bigg for a
> small aircraft.
>
> John Roncallo
>

Jon,

Lansing JetCenter just changed owners in the last few months. I know
they are trying to be more user friendly than in the past but old
employee habits die hard. Have you called and spoken to a manager?
This is the sort of thing that the new owners do NOT want happening.

I suggest you call and ask to speak to a manager, outline what
happened and your shock over the cost. (A heated hangar is normally
only about $100 at most for the process of deicing an airplane.) The
manager should make sure that something like that doesn't happen again
as he or she knows that it drives away business. Plus, the new owners
also own some other FBOs that are very user friendly and will want to
know about this event so that it can be corrected.

I suspect the line crew was used to deicing airliners and sprayed the
stuff on heavily so that it would have the carryover required for
departing into known icing and didn't realize what was needed for your
operation. It's always wise to supervise line ops, and, in my case,
when I get deicing fluid for a little airplane, I do the deicing
myself so that I don't use more than a gallon or so.

All the best,
Rick

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.
>
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.
>
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)

I've had my Cherokee 180 de-iced a few times. About $50.00, so I'd
say your charge was outrageous.

If possible, call the FBO and have them put the plane in a heated
hangar for a few hours before you leave. Melts and dries the ice,
plus no need for a pre-heat.

You should write/call the FBO manager/owner and ask for an adjustment.

Good luck!
-Nathan

I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage of
beginning or new pilots.


"Lynne Miller" > wrote in message
om...
> When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
> Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
> range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
> be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
> correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
> before...
>
>
> Jon Kraus > wrote in message
>...
> > I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> > family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> > and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> > The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> > issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> > much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> > that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> > wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> > presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> > the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> > and vowed to not go there again.
> >
> > Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> > commiserate... ;-)
> >
> > Jon Kraus
> > PP-ASEL
> > Student-IA

"Lynne Miller" > wrote in message om...
> When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
> Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
> range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
> be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
> correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
> before...

We got courtesy de-iced when we picked up one of the club planes at
the overhaul shop. While it didn't cost us, the damn thing reeked of
the fluid all the way home.

Next time just ask if they can pull it in the hanger for an hour or so before
your depature. It usually melts off fairly quickly.

I agree with Jay. Write or call the owner of the FBO and talk it out with
them. You don't have to be nasty - just see how far you can get. Even if
they are jerks and don't refund some of your money, maybe they will instruct
their line guys for future small plane owners. Maybe the FBO is focused on
the big-plane big-bucks guys, but they should be sensitive to the low end as
well. At least warn you that they are not set up to deice small planes.

Maybe your complaint will put a garden sprayer on their planning for next
year!

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:Zrcyb.363028$Fm2.362830@attbi_s04...
> > The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> > issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> > much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> > that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> > wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> > presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> > the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> > and vowed to not go there again.
>
> Jon, what in the world were you renting -- a Gulfstream?
>
> If this charge was for a Spam Can, you NEED to write a letter to the owner
> of this facility, and demand a refund. There is no way in the world
> de-icing a Cessna/Piper/Beech should cost even 10% of what you were
charged.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

I tried the same kind of trip into Flint. Flew in Wed night hoping to leave
Thursday night or Friday morning. One thing that bothered me was that there
was no icing AIRMET for the state of Michigan Friday morning but the clouds
were to the ground and surface temp was right around freezing.

I ended borrowing a car and driving round trip to Chicago and back to drop
off my S.O. for retail-Friday, went hunting for the weekend and flew out
Sunday afternoon.

Travis

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.
>
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA
>

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).

I once asked for deicing at LI Jet Center at FRG. It would probably have
cost as much, but they warned me in advance. If they hadn't, it would never
have occurred to me that it could be expensive (my old FBO did it for free
too). But they were nice enough to suggest that they could instead use
their pre-heater to melt the ice, at a fraction of the cost. (It was a
low-wing plane with a light coating of ice, and the air temperature had
risen above freezing.)

Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking advantage
of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw that
can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!

I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally and
financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets or
small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would have
got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people at
the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to make a
living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.

Travis

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
> with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage of
> beginning or new pilots.
>
>
> "Lynne Miller" > wrote in message
> om...
> > When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
> > Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
> > range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
> > be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
> > correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
> > before...
> >
> >
> > Jon Kraus > wrote in message
> >...
> > > I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> > > family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful
hour
> > > and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
return.
> > > The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> > > issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> > > much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of
ice
> > > that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free.
I
> > > wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> > > presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
Hell
> > > the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> > > and vowed to not go there again.
> > >
> > > Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> > > commiserate... ;-)
> > >
> > > Jon Kraus
> > > PP-ASEL
> > > Student-IA
>
>

I spoke with Joe the general manager of the Lansing Jet Center today and
he agreed to refund me $275.00. That means it still cost me $187.50 for
the deicing but who's complaining. :-)

Thanks for all the input.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA
Student- at flying into other airports

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
>>issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
>>much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
>>that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
>>wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
>>presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
>>the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
>>and vowed to not go there again.
>>
>>
>
>Jon, what in the world were you renting -- a Gulfstream?
>
>If this charge was for a Spam Can, you NEED to write a letter to the owner
>of this facility, and demand a refund. There is no way in the world
>de-icing a Cessna/Piper/Beech should cost even 10% of what you were charged.
>
>

Jon,

Rumor has it that you called Lansing JetCenter and the manager cut
your bill by something more than half. Is that true? If so, it
sounds like it's a pretty stand up organization. Please bring us up
to date.

As I understand it, as part of the purchase of the FBO they do not yet
have control of the big, heated hangar in the building. The current
tenant is moving out soon, so they will after that, and can put
airplanes inside to de-ice. I hear that will drop the cost to under
$100 (which is what I've paid the last couple of times I've had an
airplane put in a heated hangar to be deiced). It sounds as if
service at Lansing will be improving as the new owners get their feet
on the ground.

All the best,
Rick

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.
>
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA

Jon Kraus wrote:
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)

Sorry about your experience, glad you got at least partial compensation. I'm
late to the thread, but here's a suggestion: document your experience at
http://www.airnav.com. That's where I look when I want to know what experiences
others have had at a particular FBO. Thanks.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave Butler wrote:
> document your
> experience at http://www.airnav.com. That's where I look when I want to
> know what experiences others have had at a particular FBO. Thanks.

Ummm. Never mind. I see there are no FBOs at LAN, according to airnav.com. I
wonder why that is. I should have looked before I posted.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

MRQB wrote:

> I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
> with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage of
> beginning or new pilots.
>
>

I don't find this to be true at all. I have notice that there are many
facilities that cater to larger jet aircraft and have no time for the
single piston engine aircraft. This is largely due to the prime
realestate these facilities operate on and the difficulties in setting
policy that works for both large and small aircraft. The small aircraft
take up almost as much space as a G-V. Yet to a C-152 pilot a $50.00
ramp fee is very discouraging while a G-V it's a very small percentage
of the total cost of the flight. Large Jet centers also offer things
that are really not required for the single engine pilot, like the guy
that comes out with the mini van to pick everyone and there bags up and
bring them into the terminal.

The problem gets even more magnified when one consideres that the range
of single engine aircraft is quite diverse. On one hand you get the
business man in the 1/2 million dollar Bonanza, who expects to get
picked up and has no problem with a $50.00 ramp fee and on the other
extreem you get the student pilot flying a 30 year old C-150 that just
wants gas and a quick turn arround. The C-152 will not even take the 25
gallons minimum fuel often required to wave a ramp fee at some places.

It's very hard for an FBO manager to say lets roll the the guy in the
Bonanza and let the student off, especially if they are both at the
counter at the same time.

John Roncallo

Rick,

I did put an update thread in earlier this afternoon. I called the Jet
Center and talked to the General Manager Joe. He agreed to refund me
$275.00 making the deicing $187.50. Still salty but a lot less so.
I'll chalk it up to a great lesson learned. Thanks for the post.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

Rick Durden wrote:

>Jon,
>
>Rumor has it that you called Lansing JetCenter and the manager cut
>your bill by something more than half. Is that true? If so, it
>sounds like it's a pretty stand up organization. Please bring us up
>to date.
>
>As I understand it, as part of the purchase of the FBO they do not yet
>have control of the big, heated hangar in the building. The current
>tenant is moving out soon, so they will after that, and can put
>airplanes inside to de-ice. I hear that will drop the cost to under
>$100 (which is what I've paid the last couple of times I've had an
>airplane put in a heated hangar to be deiced). It sounds as if
>service at Lansing will be improving as the new owners get their feet
>on the ground.
>
>All the best,
>Rick
>
>Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
>
>
>>I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
>>family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
>>and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
>>The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
>>issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
>>much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
>>that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
>>wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
>>presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
>>the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
>>and vowed to not go there again.
>>
>>Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
>>commiserate... ;-)
>>
>>Jon Kraus
>>PP-ASEL
>>Student-IA
>>
>>

Please remove the "Don't go to the Lansing Jet Center" from your memory
banks. THe General manager is going to refund me $275.00.
Thanks Jay for the advise....

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

Jon Kraus wrote:

> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful
> hour and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
> return. The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of
> icing issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday
> dawned much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a
> coating of ice that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of
> this for free. I wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished
> the job and presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my
> pants). Hell the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I
> paid the bill and vowed to not go there again.
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA

Where you at "North of Indy"? I'm out of Seymour (SER)

Fred


"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.
>
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA
>

> Please remove the "Don't go to the Lansing Jet Center" from your memory
> banks. THe General manager is going to refund me $275.00.
> Thanks Jay for the advise....

Great news, Jon! Now you can buy yourself a new aviation <fill in the
blank> with the money you just saved! :-)

Good work...!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor
3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
their pocket.

I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for not
disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to get to
ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going forth
with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be $5,000 in
training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight school
and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be responsible
for all attorney costs + damages.

we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school but
they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
today from instructor with airplane update as promised
"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
advantage
> of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw that
> can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
> It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!
>
> I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally
and
> financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets
or
> small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
> for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would have
> got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people at
> the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to make
a
> living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.
>
> Travis
>
> "MRQB" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
> > with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage
of
> > beginning or new pilots.
> >
> >
> > "Lynne Miller" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
> > > Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
> > > range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
> > > be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
> > > correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
> > > before...
> > >
> > >
> > > Jon Kraus > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> > > > family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful
> hour
> > > > and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
> return.
> > > > The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> > > > issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> > > > much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of
> ice
> > > > that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
free.
> I
> > > > wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> > > > presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
> Hell
> > > > the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the
bill
> > > > and vowed to not go there again.
> > > >
> > > > Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> > > > commiserate... ;-)
> > > >
> > > > Jon Kraus
> > > > PP-ASEL
> > > > Student-IA
> >
> >
>
>

Jon,

Thanks for the update. (When I post something here, it doesn't show
up for several hours, so I think we "crossed in the mail.") I'm very
glad to hear you got the cost knocked down a bunch. I think you may
have hit what is going to be a good FBO before they were able to
correct the holdovers from the bad old days.

All the best,
Rick

Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> Rick,
>
> I did put an update thread in earlier this afternoon. I called the Jet
> Center and talked to the General Manager Joe. He agreed to refund me
> $275.00 making the deicing $187.50. Still salty but a lot less so.
> I'll chalk it up to a great lesson learned. Thanks for the post.
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA
>
> Rick Durden wrote:
>
> >Jon,
> >
> >Rumor has it that you called Lansing JetCenter and the manager cut
> >your bill by something more than half. Is that true? If so, it
> >sounds like it's a pretty stand up organization. Please bring us up
> >to date.
> >
> >As I understand it, as part of the purchase of the FBO they do not yet
> >have control of the big, heated hangar in the building. The current
> >tenant is moving out soon, so they will after that, and can put
> >airplanes inside to de-ice. I hear that will drop the cost to under
> >$100 (which is what I've paid the last couple of times I've had an
> >airplane put in a heated hangar to be deiced). It sounds as if
> >service at Lansing will be improving as the new owners get their feet
> >on the ground.
> >
> >All the best,
> >Rick
> >
> >Jon Kraus > wrote in message >...
> >
> >
> >>I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> >>family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> >>and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> >>The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> >>issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> >>much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> >>that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> >>wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> >>presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> >>the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> >>and vowed to not go there again.
> >>
> >>Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> >>commiserate... ;-)
> >>
> >>Jon Kraus
> >>PP-ASEL
> >>Student-IA
> >>
> >>

I don't really see anything wrong with any of what you've described. Sure, I
would love to get stuff for free too but everyone has to run their business
to make money. The flight schools may have an interest in the future of
aviation but they are not there as a charity.

Regarding 1) Getting checked out in a different kind of airplane is usually
at your expense. Why shouldn't it be? Note that I said DIFFERENT. If the
school replaces it with the same kind, you shouldn't need a check out at
all. Either way, this isn't taking advantage of newbie pilots. It's
business. If you don't like their policies, go somewhere else. If enough
people pass on their services, they will go out of business or change their
policies.

Regarding 2) In your opening paragraph, you said that you were a student
pilot in search of a new school. Of course they are going to want to spend
some training time with you before signing you off for solo in one of their
planes. Anything else would be irresponsible. While the FAA doesn't care,
their insurance company probably does. They would want one of their
instructors to endorse your logbook again. I don't see this as a scam.

Regarding 3) If you are a student pilot, I would not rent you my airplane
without one of my instructors being with you. I don't know your instructor
either. Why should they? No scam. Just safe business practice.

Regarding 4) Sign you off for a check ride? What kind of a check ride? PP,
IA, Commercial? If you transition to a new instructor, of course he is going
to want to spend some time with you before signing you off. No CFI in their
right mind is going to sign you off based on your say so.

None of this sounds like a scam targeted at inexperienced pilots. It sounds
like reasonable business policies that you don't like. Similarly, your
proposed lawsuit is just what we do not need. Complain a little. See if you
can talk them into a free check out but please do the rest of paying pilots
(as opposed to getting paid) a favor and eat the extra cost to transition to
a new plane.

Travis


"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
> Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
> school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
> and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.
>
> 1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
> prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
expense
> witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
> 2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
> instruction with their instructor
> 3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
> 4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
not
> wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
> their pocket.
>
> I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
> school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for
not
> disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
> they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
> date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
> penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.
>
> And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to get
to
> ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going forth
> with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be $5,000
in
> training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight
school
> and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be
responsible
> for all attorney costs + damages.
>
> we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
> enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school
but
> they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
> today from instructor with airplane update as promised
> "Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
> advantage
> > of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw
that
> > can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
> > It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!
> >
> > I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally
> and
> > financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets
> or
> > small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
> > for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would
have
> > got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people
at
> > the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to
make
> a
> > living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.
> >
> > Travis
> >
> > "MRQB" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you
deal
> > > with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take
advantage
> of
> > > beginning or new pilots.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Lynne Miller" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
> > > > Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
> > > > range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option
would
> > > > be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to
spray
> > > > correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
> > > > before...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jon Kraus > wrote in message
> > > >...
> > > > > I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to
visit
> > > > > family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful,
uneventful
> > hour
> > > > > and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
> > return.
> > > > > The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of
icing
> > > > > issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday
dawned
> > > > > much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating
of
> > ice
> > > > > that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
> free.
> > I
> > > > > wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> > > > > presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
> > Hell
> > > > > the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the
> bill
> > > > > and vowed to not go there again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> > > > > commiserate... ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Jon Kraus
> > > > > PP-ASEL
> > > > > Student-IA
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

When I was in Los Angeles several years ago, I wanted to rent a plane for a
couple of hours, just to check out the area. At the time, I had well over 1000
hrs in type and
all my documents in order, etc.

OF COURSE, I expected a checkout.

I went to Van Nuys Airport and picked an FBO (it's no longer there). My
checkride was 3 hours long. I understaood the airspace orientation and the
local protocol checkout . . . but the checkpilot made me fly the pattern and do
more than a dozen landings (every kind you can think of--short field, soft
field, power off, no-flaps, full flaps). It was ridiculous. I could feel him
just ripping me off and watching the Hobbs click off like a cash register. It
was completely unnecessary. By the time I was finished and signed off to rent,
I was too damn tired. I just left and never went back.

OTOH, when I was at Peter O Knight in Tampa getting checked out in their Arrow,
my checkpilot was about 80 years old, I did 3 circuits around the pattern while
he slept the entire time.

In Vernon, BC, Canada, my checkride was ONCE around the pattern . . . took
about .3 for the entire checkout.


www.Rosspilot.com

First, I've trimmed the subject line since the issue
with the complainee has been resolved.

Second, you seem to have an attitude problem. Flying
is expensive, so get used to it. Checking out in a
new plane is a great experience, not an excuse to
sue. Why did you want to learn to fly in the first place?

Thirdly, although you may think you're the hottest
student pilot around, others will need convincing. Every
time someone signs you off, they are putting their
own ticket - and possibly their business - on the line.
If that doesn't concern you, then realize they might
well be saving your own over-confident arse.

Frankly, I'd not risk my livelihood for some sue-happy
student pilot. You sound like an FBO's nightmare.

"MRQB" > wrote in message
...
>
> 1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
> prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
expense
> witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
> 2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
> instruction with their instructor
> 3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
> 4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
not
> wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
> their pocket.
>
> I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
> school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor



--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

I, too, have had sue-happy students who have a room temperature IQ and a chip on
their shoulder. For one lesson. {;-)

Jim


"MRQB" >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
->school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
->and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.
->>
->>
->



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

In a previous article, "MRQB" > said:
>school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for not
>disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
>they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
>date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
>penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

We're supposed to believe you're a doctor when your spelling and grammar
are worse than my 14 year old daughter when she's off her Ritalin?

Go away, you odious troll.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If I have to deal with another salesweasel, I shall scream, if only to
cover the sound caused by me ripping his head from his body to use the
carcass as a footstool. -- MC Langston

(Rosspilot) wrote
> I went to Van Nuys Airport and picked an FBO (it's no longer there). My
> checkride was 3 hours long...
> By the time I was finished and signed off to rent,
> I was too damn tired. I just left and never went back.

When I used to travel commercial a lot and didn't own a plane, I used
to like to check out locally to do some flying. I always made it a
point to call in advance and find out what kind of checkout was
required. Sometimes I would hear "Oh, usually an hour with a CFI."
That was OK. When I called Caldwell Flight Academy at CDW in New
Jersey, I was told three to five hours. I decided not to bother.
Clearly they did not want my business. However, they get points for
being up front about their policies.

A 3 (or 5, or even 7) hour checkout in a light single is not
reasonable. A checkout that takes longer than the flight portion of
an FAA checkride is never reasonable. It's a different story if
transition training is required - a 'checkout' in a tailwheel airplane
for someone who has only flown trikes can reasonably take 5-10 hours.
But if you already have significant make&model experience and the
instructor can't get your checkoput done in an hour, he's either
milking you or incompetent. It's just that simple.

Michael

"MRQB" > wrote in message >...
> Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
> school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
> and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.
>
> 1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
> prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my expense
> witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.

How is that BS? It is their plane. They have no obligation to you to
ask you if it is OK with you if they sell their airplane. Did you have
a contract with them that stipulatd that they would keep the same
plane, or is this just an (unrealistic) expectation on your part?

> 2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
> instruction with their instructor

For a student pilot? Dang straight. After you get your ticket this
won't be the case with most garden-variety 172s, but try to rent a
Cessna 206...or a 172 RG...or even a 182. Many places require a
certain number of hours with their instructor.

> 3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor

Again, why should they? If they are in business to 'sell' training to
pilots, why should they furnish a competitor with the tools necessary
to practice his trade?

> 4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors not
> wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
> their pocket.

No offense, but I have heard this complaint several times before. Once
from a very good friend of mine, who was complaining that his CFII was
'milking' him for money instead of signing him of for his instrument
checkride immediately. I then went up and shot approaches with him.
There is no possible way he would have passed. None. He simply wasn't
good enough, even though he definitely thought he was.

This is probably your first checkride. This is probably your
instuctors 150th signoff (also having taken at least 4 or 5 himself).
Perhaps he knows a bit more about what level of skill is necessary to
pass that checkride than you do?

>
> I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
> school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for not
> disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
> they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
> date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
> penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.
>
> And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to get to
> ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going forth
> with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be $5,000 in
> training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight school
> and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be responsible
> for all attorney costs + damages.
>
> we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
> enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school but
> they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
> today from instructor with airplane update as promised

Sigh. No wonder so many people don't want to be CFIs. You don't like
what happens to you, so you sue. Good call. I certainly wouldn't want
to be your CFI. Also, no offense, but I work at a bank...you have no
idea how many times we hear "I talked to a lawyer yesterday, and he
said that if you don't do XXX, he'll be happy to sue you. So what will
it be?" Our answer is *always* give your lawyer a call...but these
people never seem to follow through with it. Wonder why?

What makes flying no fun is often people with a sense of entitlement.
They tend to make bad pilots. I'm not a CFI yet (I am an AGI), but
I'll be one within the month. And if a student displayed the kind of
attitude problems I see in your post here, I'd be very reluctant to
fly with you. Why?

1. Your belief that you know your flying skills at this point better
than your CFI (as evidenced by your statement that your CFI is milking
you). Very hard to instruct somebody who thinks you are trying to rip
you off. Very hard to teach somebody who thinks they know 'enough' and
don't need what I am teaching.

2. Your unrealistic expectations (like the plane you like will be
available whenever you want it). This can ve a very dangerous flight
attitude. Does this come through in your flying? Do you 'expect' to
get cleared into Class B as soon as you call them up, and become upset
when they tell you to stay clear of Class B for 5 minutes while they
deal with other traffic?

3. Your insistence that you will sue when you don't get your way. Why
would I as an instuctor want to egt involved with somebody who says he
will sue whoever ****es him off? Next time I **** you off, will you
sue me? CFIs make $20 an hour (if they are lucky). They aren't geting
rich off of you. Most FBOs and flight schools aren't raking in the
dough either....they aren't retiring in Bermuda off of your $75 an
hour rental of their 172. It simply wouldn't be worth the downside for
me to fly with you.

Now maybe this post really doesn't reflect how you are. But it really
doesn't show you in a very positive light.

Cheers,

Cap





> "Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
> advantage
> > of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw that
> > can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
> > It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!
> >
> > I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally
> and
> > financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets
> or
> > small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
> > for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would have
> > got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people at
> > the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to make
> a
> > living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.
> >
> > Travis
> >
> > "MRQB" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
> > > with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage
> of
> > > beginning or new pilots.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Lynne Miller" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
> > > > Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
> > > > range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
> > > > be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
> > > > correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
> > > > before...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Jon Kraus > wrote in message
> >...
> > > > > I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> > > > > family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful
> hour
> > > > > and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
> return.
> > > > > The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> > > > > issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> > > > > much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of
> ice
> > > > > that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
> free.
> I
> > > > > wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> > > > > presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
> Hell
> > > > > the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the
> bill
> > > > > and vowed to not go there again.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> > > > > commiserate... ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > Jon Kraus
> > > > > PP-ASEL
> > > > > Student-IA
> > >
> > >
> >
> >

"Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message .net>...

> Regarding 2) In your opening paragraph, you said that you were a student
> pilot in search of a new school. Of course they are going to want to spend
> some training time with you before signing you off for solo in one of their
> planes. Anything else would be irresponsible. While the FAA doesn't care,


actually, the faa _does_ care:

61.195
(d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse
a:

(1) Student pilot's certificate or logbook for solo flight privileges,
unless that flight instructor has --

(i) Given that student the flight training required for solo flight
privileges required by this part; and


and--

61.87
(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a
single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for
a single-engine airplane rating must receive and log flight training
for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning
and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a
stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.


now, how you can cover all of the above in a 1-hour checkout is a
mystery
to me. (if the student is competent, i can usually get it done in 3-4
hours or
so, but that's about a minimum).

mho,

g_a

61.87

You nailed it.

I know anyone would be angry if this happned to them but it is wednesday and
still no plane go figure.


"gross_arrow" > wrote in message
m...
> "Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
.net>...
>
> > Regarding 2) In your opening paragraph, you said that you were a student
> > pilot in search of a new school. Of course they are going to want to
spend
> > some training time with you before signing you off for solo in one of
their
> > planes. Anything else would be irresponsible. While the FAA doesn't
care,
>
>
> actually, the faa _does_ care:
>
> 61.195
> (d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse
> a:
>
> (1) Student pilot's certificate or logbook for solo flight privileges,
> unless that flight instructor has --
>
> (i) Given that student the flight training required for solo flight
> privileges required by this part; and
>
>
> and--
>
> 61.87
> (d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a
> single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for
> a single-engine airplane rating must receive and log flight training
> for the following maneuvers and procedures:
>
> (1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning
> and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
>
> (2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
>
> (3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
>
> (4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
>
> (5) Climbs and climbing turns;
>
> (6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
> procedures;
>
> (7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
> avoidance;
>
> (8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
> configurations;
>
> (9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
>
> (10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
> combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a
> stall, and recovery from a full stall;
>
> (11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
>
> (12) Ground reference maneuvers;
>
> (13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
>
> (14) Slips to a landing; and
>
> (15) Go-arounds.
>
>
> now, how you can cover all of the above in a 1-hour checkout is a
> mystery
> to me. (if the student is competent, i can usually get it done in 3-4
> hours or
> so, but that's about a minimum).
>
> mho,
>
> g_a
>
> 61.87

"Captain Wubba" > wrote in message
om...
> "MRQB" > wrote in message
>...
> > Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another
flight
> > school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student
pilots
> > and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.
> >
> > 1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my
training
> > prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
expense
> > witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
>
> How is that BS? It is their plane. They have no obligation to you to
> ask you if it is OK with you if they sell their airplane. Did you have
> a contract with them that stipulatd that they would keep the same
> plane, or is this just an (unrealistic) expectation on your part?

I Paid block time on that aircraft!!!!

>
> > 2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
> > instruction with their instructor
>
> For a student pilot? Dang straight. After you get your ticket this
> won't be the case with most garden-variety 172s, but try to rent a
> Cessna 206...or a 172 RG...or even a 182. Many places require a
> certain number of hours with their instructor.

I have no problem with extra instruction the more the better right.

>
> > 3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
>
> Again, why should they? If they are in business to 'sell' training to
> pilots, why should they furnish a competitor with the tools necessary
> to practice his trade?
>
> > 4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
not
> > wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money
in
> > their pocket.
>
> No offense, but I have heard this complaint several times before. Once
> from a very good friend of mine, who was complaining that his CFII was
> 'milking' him for money instead of signing him of for his instrument
> checkride immediately. I then went up and shot approaches with him.
> There is no possible way he would have passed. None. He simply wasn't
> good enough, even though he definitely thought he was.

Was told by my CFI that he was going to make my check ride appointment and
that i was ready.
>
> This is probably your first checkride. This is probably your
> instuctors 150th signoff (also having taken at least 4 or 5 himself).
> Perhaps he knows a bit more about what level of skill is necessary to
> pass that checkride than you do?

Yes this will be my first check ride he said my skill were beyond PTS lots
of practice.
>
> >
> > I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
> > school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for
not
> > disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the
plane
> > they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a
cretin
> > date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
> > penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.
> >
> > And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to
get to
> > ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going
forth
> > with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be
$5,000 in
> > training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight
school
> > and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be
responsible
> > for all attorney costs + damages.
> >
> > we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
> > enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school
but
> > they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
> > today from instructor with airplane update as promised
>
> Sigh. No wonder so many people don't want to be CFIs. You don't like
> what happens to you, so you sue. Good call. I certainly wouldn't want
> to be your CFI. Also, no offense, but I work at a bank...you have no
> idea how many times we hear "I talked to a lawyer yesterday, and he
> said that if you don't do XXX, he'll be happy to sue you. So what will
> it be?" Our answer is *always* give your lawyer a call...but these
> people never seem to follow through with it. Wonder why?

I like my cfi he is a exelent instructor.

>
> What makes flying no fun is often people with a sense of entitlement.
> They tend to make bad pilots. I'm not a CFI yet (I am an AGI), but
> I'll be one within the month. And if a student displayed the kind of
> attitude problems I see in your post here, I'd be very reluctant to
> fly with you. Why?
>
> 1. Your belief that you know your flying skills at this point better
> than your CFI (as evidenced by your statement that your CFI is milking
> you). Very hard to instruct somebody who thinks you are trying to rip
> you off. Very hard to teach somebody who thinks they know 'enough' and
> don't need what I am teaching.

Not saying that my instructor is milking me the school is for airplane
rental. And no i dont belive my flying skills are any better than my cfi has
told me that they are. They are better than PST.
>
> 2. Your unrealistic expectations (like the plane you like will be
> available whenever you want it). This can ve a very dangerous flight
> attitude. Does this come through in your flying? Do you 'expect' to
> get cleared into Class B as soon as you call them up, and become upset
> when they tell you to stay clear of Class B for 5 minutes while they
> deal with other traffic?

I can be tollerant of a lot of things If it was a mechanical problem idd be
ok with that. but they made the choice to get rid of the plane prior to
taking delivery of their new one. I know in my business i dont get rid of a
tool unless i get my new one first. Also idd stay out of Class B if told to.

>
> 3. Your insistence that you will sue when you don't get your way. Why
> would I as an instuctor want to egt involved with somebody who says he
> will sue whoever ****es him off? Next time I **** you off, will you
> sue me? CFIs make $20 an hour (if they are lucky). They aren't geting
> rich off of you. Most FBOs and flight schools aren't raking in the
> dough either....they aren't retiring in Bermuda off of your $75 an
> hour rental of their 172. It simply wouldn't be worth the downside for
> me to fly with you.
>
> Now maybe this post really doesn't reflect how you are. But it really
> doesn't show you in a very positive light.

I am not sue happy at all!!!!!!! i just think that they should have
disclosed to me when they found out that the plane wouold not be avaiable to
me and the date it would be sold they know since 1st of october that it
would be going away mid november. and if i would have known that idd have
cut my losses early and went to another flight school. You Would Also....
Untill you are in my shoes dont judge me when and if you ever are ill know
how you feel. i know if at all i learned a lot from this call it a expencive
lesson.


>
> Cheers,
>
> Cap
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Travis Marlatte" > wrote in message
> > link.net...
> > > Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
> > advantage
> > > of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw
that
> > > can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced
but
> > > It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing
everybody!!
> > >
> > > I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him
(literally
> > and
> > > financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big
jets
> > or
> > > small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is
there
> > > for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would
have
> > > got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the
people at
> > > the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to
make
> > a
> > > living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.
> > >
> > > Travis
> > >
> > > "MRQB" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you
deal
> > > > with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take
advantage
> > of
> > > > beginning or new pilots.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Lynne Miller" > wrote in message
> > > > om...
> > > > > When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
> > > > > Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to
$175
> > > > > range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option
would
> > > > > be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to
spray
> > > > > correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
> > > > > before...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jon Kraus > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > > > I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to
visit
> > > > > > family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful,
uneventful
> > hour
> > > > > > and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
> > return.
> > > > > > The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of
icing
> > > > > > issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday
dawned
> > > > > > much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating
of
> > ice
> > > > > > that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
> > free.
> > I
> > > > > > wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job
and
> > > > > > presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my
pants).
> > Hell
> > > > > > the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid
the
> > bill
> > > > > > and vowed to not go there again.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> > > > > > commiserate... ;-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jon Kraus
> > > > > > PP-ASEL
> > > > > > Student-IA
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >

"MRQB" > wrote in message >...
> "Captain Wubba" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "MRQB" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another
> flight
> > > school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student
> pilots
> > > and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.
> > >
> > > 1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my
> training
> > > prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
> expense
> > > witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
> >
> > How is that BS? It is their plane. They have no obligation to you to
> > ask you if it is OK with you if they sell their airplane. Did you have
> > a contract with them that stipulatd that they would keep the same
> > plane, or is this just an (unrealistic) expectation on your part?
>
> I Paid block time on that aircraft!!!!

And? Did they transfer the block time to the new aircraft? Or refund
the balance? If not, *then* you have a beef. If they did, then roll
with the punches...what would have done had some other student
collapsed the nose gear on your plane and sent it to the shop for a
month? Sued the student? Sued the FBO? Sued the airport?

>
> >
> > > 2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
> > > instruction with their instructor
> >
> > For a student pilot? Dang straight. After you get your ticket this
> > won't be the case with most garden-variety 172s, but try to rent a
> > Cessna 206...or a 172 RG...or even a 182. Many places require a
> > certain number of hours with their instructor.
>
> I have no problem with extra instruction the more the better right.
>
> >
> > > 3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
> >
> > Again, why should they? If they are in business to 'sell' training to
> > pilots, why should they furnish a competitor with the tools necessary
> > to practice his trade?
> >
> > > 4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
> not
> > > wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money
> in
> > > their pocket.
> >
> > No offense, but I have heard this complaint several times before. Once
> > from a very good friend of mine, who was complaining that his CFII was
> > 'milking' him for money instead of signing him of for his instrument
> > checkride immediately. I then went up and shot approaches with him.
> > There is no possible way he would have passed. None. He simply wasn't
> > good enough, even though he definitely thought he was.
>
> Was told by my CFI that he was going to make my check ride appointment and
> that i was ready.
> >
> > This is probably your first checkride. This is probably your
> > instuctors 150th signoff (also having taken at least 4 or 5 himself).
> > Perhaps he knows a bit more about what level of skill is necessary to
> > pass that checkride than you do?
>
> Yes this will be my first check ride he said my skill were beyond PTS lots
> of practice.

Then if your skill level is truly PP-ASEL level or better, then this
should only take a few hours familiarization in the new plane. Use it
as a learning opportunity to gete xposed to different kinds of
aircraft and their systems. If you were going to continue to use this
FBO to rent from, you'd need the checkout in this plane anyway, right?
And if you went to a different FBO, they'd expect a checkout in
whatever plane they had.


> >
> > Sigh. No wonder so many people don't want to be CFIs. You don't like
> > what happens to you, so you sue. Good call. I certainly wouldn't want
> > to be your CFI. Also, no offense, but I work at a bank...you have no
> > idea how many times we hear "I talked to a lawyer yesterday, and he
> > said that if you don't do XXX, he'll be happy to sue you. So what will
> > it be?" Our answer is *always* give your lawyer a call...but these
> > people never seem to follow through with it. Wonder why?
>
> I like my cfi he is a exelent instructor.
>
> >
> > What makes flying no fun is often people with a sense of entitlement.
> > They tend to make bad pilots. I'm not a CFI yet (I am an AGI), but
> > I'll be one within the month. And if a student displayed the kind of
> > attitude problems I see in your post here, I'd be very reluctant to
> > fly with you. Why?
> >
> > 1. Your belief that you know your flying skills at this point better
> > than your CFI (as evidenced by your statement that your CFI is milking
> > you). Very hard to instruct somebody who thinks you are trying to rip
> > you off. Very hard to teach somebody who thinks they know 'enough' and
> > don't need what I am teaching.
>
> Not saying that my instructor is milking me the school is for airplane
> rental. And no i dont belive my flying skills are any better than my cfi has
> told me that they are. They are better than PST.
> >
> > 2. Your unrealistic expectations (like the plane you like will be
> > available whenever you want it). This can ve a very dangerous flight
> > attitude. Does this come through in your flying? Do you 'expect' to
> > get cleared into Class B as soon as you call them up, and become upset
> > when they tell you to stay clear of Class B for 5 minutes while they
> > deal with other traffic?
>
> I can be tollerant of a lot of things If it was a mechanical problem idd be
> ok with that. but they made the choice to get rid of the plane prior to
> taking delivery of their new one. I know in my business i dont get rid of a
> tool unless i get my new one first. Also idd stay out of Class B if told to.
>
> >
> > 3. Your insistence that you will sue when you don't get your way. Why
> > would I as an instuctor want to egt involved with somebody who says he
> > will sue whoever ****es him off? Next time I **** you off, will you
> > sue me? CFIs make $20 an hour (if they are lucky). They aren't geting
> > rich off of you. Most FBOs and flight schools aren't raking in the
> > dough either....they aren't retiring in Bermuda off of your $75 an
> > hour rental of their 172. It simply wouldn't be worth the downside for
> > me to fly with you.
> >
> > Now maybe this post really doesn't reflect how you are. But it really
> > doesn't show you in a very positive light.
>
> I am not sue happy at all!!!!!!! i just think that they should have
> disclosed to me when they found out that the plane wouold not be avaiable to
> me and the date it would be sold they know since 1st of october that it
> would be going away mid november. and if i would have known that idd have
> cut my losses early and went to another flight school. You Would Also....
> Untill you are in my shoes dont judge me when and if you ever are ill know
> how you feel. i know if at all i learned a lot from this call it a expencive
> lesson.

No, I would *not* have also 'cut my losses'. I wouldn't have seen them
as losses to be cut. The goal here isn't to get a piece of paper from
the FAA. the goal is to lbe proficient enough to *deserve* the
privelege of flying an airplane. This is an opportunity...not an
opportunity to sue. You put your situation out here for others to
comment upon, not me. And the response seems fairly uniform...many
pilots here don't think you have a productive attitude. Want to know
why a new Cessna 172 costs $200,000? Many reasons, but one is
insurance, which is very expensive largely due to people who are quick
to sue others whenever they do something stupid or become unhappy
about something.

I hear a strong sense of entitlement in your posts. That is *not* a
good attitude for a pilot to have. One of the most important
attributes of a pilot is the ability to roll with the punches, and
adapt to unfavorable situations with calm and reason. That attitude is
not displayed here. Instead of 'Wow. OK...the plane is gone. How do I
deal with this? A bit annoying, but let's see how I can finish up in a
reasonable amount of time.' I hear 'The plane is gone??? You get that
plane back or I'll sue you! I deserved to finish my training in that
plane! You guys are mistreating me.'

Does that attitude reflect the way you fly? If it dos, I wouldn't get
near an airplane with you. Not as a passenger, not as an instructor.

This is a chance to show your skills at dealing with new and mildly
adverse situations. Use it to learn something new, and stop with the
unproductive blame.

Cheers,

Cap

Very well said. MRQB, it's time to stop being a victim and take control of
your situation...

Michael

> "Captain Wubba" said
> No, I would *not* have also 'cut my losses'. I wouldn't have seen them
> as losses to be cut. The goal here isn't to get a piece of paper from
> the FAA. the goal is to lbe proficient enough to *deserve* the
> privelege of flying an airplane. This is an opportunity...not an
> opportunity to sue. You put your situation out here for others to
> comment upon, not me. And the response seems fairly uniform...many
> pilots here don't think you have a productive attitude. Want to know
> why a new Cessna 172 costs $200,000? Many reasons, but one is
> insurance, which is very expensive largely due to people who are quick
> to sue others whenever they do something stupid or become unhappy
> about something.
>
> I hear a strong sense of entitlement in your posts. That is *not* a
> good attitude for a pilot to have. One of the most important
> attributes of a pilot is the ability to roll with the punches, and
> adapt to unfavorable situations with calm and reason. That attitude is
> not displayed here. Instead of 'Wow. OK...the plane is gone. How do I
> deal with this? A bit annoying, but let's see how I can finish up in a
> reasonable amount of time.' I hear 'The plane is gone??? You get that
> plane back or I'll sue you! I deserved to finish my training in that
> plane! You guys are mistreating me.'
>
> Does that attitude reflect the way you fly? If it dos, I wouldn't get
> near an airplane with you. Not as a passenger, not as an instructor.
>
> This is a chance to show your skills at dealing with new and mildly
> adverse situations. Use it to learn something new, and stop with the
> unproductive blame.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cap

> And? Did they transfer the block time to the new aircraft? Or refund
> the balance? If not, *then* you have a beef. If they did, then roll
> with the punches...what would have done had some other student
> collapsed the nose gear on your plane and sent it to the shop for a
> month? Sued the student? Sued the FBO? Sued the airport?

No they did not transfer the block time yet they have not recived airplane
or offer a refund as no refunds are allowed on block time and when the time
is transferred to the new plane the rates will be higher and the hours will
not be what i paid for.

What would have happened if a student damaged the plane? it would not be a
problem as that is a unpredicted accident and things do break it is a
machine plane was down a week as alternator went out was not a problem was
close to 100 hours so they did the 100 hour at the same time.

This they knew they would be getting rid of the plane on xx date but did not
let me know prior to buying block time in advance. If they would told me i
would not have rented from them and went elseware when at the beginning
stages of my training (pre solo).

> Then if your skill level is truly PP-ASEL level or better, then this
> should only take a few hours familiarization in the new plane. Use it
> as a learning opportunity to gete xposed to different kinds of
> aircraft and their systems. If you were going to continue to use this
> FBO to rent from, you'd need the checkout in this plane anyway, right?
> And if you went to a different FBO, they'd expect a checkout in
> whatever plane they had.

Yes all is true, but if i was a flight school and you were a full time
student (flying almost everyday weather permitting) renting an airplane
from me for training paid a certain amount and then when you were ready for
your check ride and i sold the airplane and have known when i was getting
rid of the plane prior to you paying a large amount of money knowing that by
doing so i could make a few extra hundred dollars off of you in instruction
& check out would you be upset? you probably would unless you own a money
tree or have no sence of the value of money some of us do work for our
money.



> No, I would *not* have also 'cut my losses'. I wouldn't have seen them
> as losses to be cut. The goal here isn't to get a piece of paper from
> the FAA. the goal is to lbe proficient enough to *deserve* the
> privelege of flying an airplane. This is an opportunity...not an
> opportunity to sue. You put your situation out here for others to
> comment upon, not me. And the response seems fairly uniform...many
> pilots here don't think you have a productive attitude. Want to know
> why a new Cessna 172 costs $200,000? Many reasons, but one is
> insurance, which is very expensive largely due to people who are quick
> to sue others whenever they do something stupid or become unhappy
> about something.

Business that don't disclose important information like: in November we will
be getting rid of the airplane and it will cost you an extra $XX Per Hour +
XX more instruction do you still want to rent and receive instruction here.
but instead they kept it quiet let me empty almost my entire PP budget in to
block time knowing that they will be able now to get $XX Per Hour + XX more
instruction.

Business that operate like this will not last long and usually end up going
banko or shut down and people lose money

lets see if they actually go through with what they are offering me. so for
every thing they said has not happened.


> I hear a strong sense of entitlement in your posts. That is *not* a
> good attitude for a pilot to have. One of the most important
> attributes of a pilot is the ability to roll with the punches, and
> adapt to unfavorable situations with calm and reason. That attitude is
> not displayed here. Instead of 'Wow. OK...the plane is gone. How do I
> deal with this? A bit annoying, but let's see how I can finish up in a
> reasonable amount of time.' I hear 'The plane is gone??? You get that
> plane back or I'll sue you! I deserved to finish my training in that
> plane! You guys are mistreating me.'

I should be entitled to the hours in a 172 that i paid for! If you pay for
something shouldn't you be entitled to receive it.

Not saying to get the plane back! i know the plane is gone. i am saying just
to watch who you do business with. I already came to the conclusion that it
is going to cost me one way or the other at the greed & disrecpect of
another.

>
> Does that attitude reflect the way you fly? If it dos, I wouldn't get
> near an airplane with you. Not as a passenger, not as an instructor.

No, i fly safe checklist gets a lot of attention and i use good judgment

>
> This is a chance to show your skills at dealing with new and mildly
> adverse situations. Use it to learn something new, and stop with the
> unproductive blame
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cap

"MRQB" > wrote in
:

> No they did not transfer the block time yet they have not recived
> airplane or offer a refund as no refunds are allowed on block time and
> when the time is transferred to the new plane the rates will be higher
> and the hours will not be what i paid for.
>

At the very least I would insist they give you the exact amount of hours
you paid for when you purchased the block time. I believe you have a
leg to stand on there. I would also negotiate a discounted cost for the
extra hours required for the checkout on new equipment. Unless these
guys are complete jerks (or they now think you are <<grin>>) both of the
above would be reasonable.

I've never taken lessons, or seen a block time agreement (yet!) but it
seems they have contracted with you for a specified amount of hours in a
specified plane, therefore they owe you the hours in an equivalent
plane, or they owe you a refund. Could be worse, I heard that in San
Antonio, when Stinson Air Center went belly up, LOTS of students and
regular renters lost ALOT of money in the form of pre-purchased block
time.... BADDDD... Yeah they were creditors in the bankruptcy... but I
doubt even one of them got a dime.


--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Well ill find out a final answer from them and what they are going to do
this Monday if they get the airplane if they don't money for time is still
owed if they refuse then ill go further but the way it seems is they keep
telling me it will be Monday, it will be Tuesday, it will be here friday, We
are going to pick it up this week, on the day they think they are going to
get it i call them or stop in and they give some excuse.


"Saryon" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:52:05 -0800, "MRQB" > wrote:
>
> >
> >> And? Did they transfer the block time to the new aircraft? Or refund
> >> the balance? If not, *then* you have a beef. If they did, then roll
> >> with the punches...what would have done had some other student
> >> collapsed the nose gear on your plane and sent it to the shop for a
> >> month? Sued the student? Sued the FBO? Sued the airport?
> >
> >No they did not transfer the block time yet they have not recived
airplane
> >or offer a refund as no refunds are allowed on block time and when the
time
> >is transferred to the new plane the rates will be higher and the hours
will
> >not be what i paid for.
>
> Let's be accurate here.
>
> They are not offering to refund the free, no cost to you, bonus hours
> that they credited your account for pre-payment, which they appear (if
> my memory is correct from previous discussions of this) to have said
> are non-refundable in their documentation, right? It is not a case of
> money that you gave them is now owed, this was a freebie they were
> going to kick in.
>
> I still have yet to hear from anyone else here who deals in block time
> saying that their block time is tagged to a specific aircraft. Anyone
> other than me and MRQB here deal with FBO's that have block time? I
> know that mine is just a deposit account and I use it for whatever
> aircraft I fly, at whatever the current going rate for that aircraft
> is. I can just as easily use that account to buy charts, kneeboards,
> plotters, whatever. It's definately not something restricted to one
> specific N number, which if someone crashed or seriously damaged would
> obviously not available any more. Whatever lawyer wrote the contracts
> would have been exceedingly remis if they actually constructed a
> contract to tie the block time to a specific airframe.
>
> I've also not seen any block time arrangement which states an hourly
> rate. What if you wanted to rent some other aircraft on their line,
> you have to make an additional purchase of hours just apply it to that
> aircraft even though you have a credit ballance in your account? That
> makes no sense either.
>

I'm glad to hear that you were partially refunded.

It would be nice if there were some kind of consumer
protection for pilots, some kind of recourse for
unethical business practices. Many many students have been
burned by flight schools that went belly-up after 9/11.
Students should beware of any flight school that asks
for thousands of dollars up front prior to commencing
flight training.

Always get an estimate before having a mechanic work
on your airplane. Replacing a seat rail on a cessna
172 is a 2.5 hour job, not a 5 hour job!
Always get an estimate before having a pre-purchase
inspection.

Flight schools are concerned with their bottom line,
not with the interests of the student pilot.
If a student damages an aircraft, he might not even
be protected by the insurance policy of the school.
For example, it is possible to damage an engine when
trying to start it on a freezing winter morning.
He could be sued under subrogation. The cost of repairs
could be outrageous, and the price gouging issue could
definitely come up. Some flight schools have even
threatened to turn in pilots to the FAA as "dangerous"
because they didn't pay their monthly dues on time.

Sometimes pilots find themselves in situations such as
forced off-airport landings in which unethical people
might try to take advantage of the situation.
Maybe the farmer is going to sue you for landing on his
corn field. Maybe you have a flat tire, dead battery,
low fuel, low oil, or are in need of de-icing.
One time I used the self-serve fuel pump, and it put
a $250 block on my credit card -- just to fill a Cessna.
I called the manager, and they took off the hold.

There needs to be a AAA of the sky that you can call
to get you out these sticky situations and a friendly
guy in a tow truck will come and help!!

Ted

Jon Kraus wrote:
>
> Please remove the "Don't go to the Lansing Jet Center" from your memory
> banks. THe General manager is going to refund me $275.00.
> Thanks Jay for the advise....
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA
>

First, let me say that I have always had positive
experiences with the executive jet centers.

From what I'm reading in some of these posts, it
seems that others have had different experiences.
If what they say is true, then there are some bad
apples, some exceptions to the rule. These few
badly managed "executive jet centers" cannot have their
cake and eat it too. If they want to open their doors
to the Bonanza pilot or the Cessna pilot, they need
to be ethical and fair. Otherwise they should strictly
do business with the bizjets.

Unfortunately, bullying occurs frequently in general aviation.
It is not acceptable. I will not allow myself to be bullied
by any large corporation, whether it is in general aviation,
Microsoft, AT&T, ...
There are choices out there. Take your business to people who
treat you right.

I have always had positive experiences with Million Air.
They gave me a box of pretzels on my first solo cross country
to Reading, Pennsylvania.

At Monterey Airport, the Monterey Jet Center made us reservations
at Tarpy's Roadhouse and even let us drive their Volkswagon Bug
over there for dinner. And we were in a little Cessna 172 from
San Carlos -- not very many gallons. Extremely nice people.

Signature in Palm Springs is very good to us.
Mercury Air Center in Santa Barbara and Bakersfield
is very good to us.

Take your business to Jonesy's Famous Steak House at Napa.
They have excellent hamburgers. Great service.

There are many nice people in Sacramento. At Sacramento
Executive, I like Aviator's Restaurant. I wonder if they
are still in business.

At Columbia, I like the City Hotel restaurant.
I like the Skyroom restaurant at Lampson airport.

Ted

John Roncallo wrote:
>
>
> I don't find this to be true at all. I have notice that there are many
> facilities that cater to larger jet aircraft and have no time for the
> single piston engine aircraft. This is largely due to the prime
> realestate these facilities operate on and the difficulties in setting
> policy that works for both large and small aircraft. The small aircraft
> take up almost as much space as a G-V. Yet to a C-152 pilot a $50.00
> ramp fee is very discouraging while a G-V it's a very small percentage
> of the total cost of the flight. Large Jet centers also offer things
> that are really not required for the single engine pilot, like the guy
> that comes out with the mini van to pick everyone and there bags up and
> bring them into the terminal.
>
> The problem gets even more magnified when one consideres that the range
> of single engine aircraft is quite diverse. On one hand you get the
> business man in the 1/2 million dollar Bonanza, who expects to get
> picked up and has no problem with a $50.00 ramp fee and on the other
> extreem you get the student pilot flying a 30 year old C-150 that just
> wants gas and a quick turn arround. The C-152 will not even take the 25
> gallons minimum fuel often required to wave a ramp fee at some places.
>
> It's very hard for an FBO manager to say lets roll the the guy in the
> Bonanza and let the student off, especially if they are both at the
> counter at the same time.
>
> John Roncallo

I work in the Capital City Airport terminal just east of L.J.C.,I am going
to print your message and take it to them in the morning and let them know
how they aren't getting off on a very good note with the public for their
apparent overcharging practice.
Also I understand that Superior Aviation just east of the terminal was also
bought out by the same company that owns Lansing Jet Center, if that is true
then they pretty much got Lansing tied up.
By they way I use to live in Indianapolis way back in the early 60's, it was
really nice then, that's before I met my wife who grew up there.
Charley

"Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
...
> I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> and vowed to not go there again.
>
> Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> commiserate... ;-)
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IA
>

Ok glad you talked to them, I won't take them a copy of the message.

"charley" > wrote in message
news:kT1Db.347917$Dw6.1141282@attbi_s02...
> I work in the Capital City Airport terminal just east of L.J.C.,I am going
> to print your message and take it to them in the morning and let them know
> how they aren't getting off on a very good note with the public for their
> apparent overcharging practice.
> Also I understand that Superior Aviation just east of the terminal was
also
> bought out by the same company that owns Lansing Jet Center, if that is
true
> then they pretty much got Lansing tied up.
> By they way I use to live in Indianapolis way back in the early 60's, it
was
> really nice then, that's before I met my wife who grew up there.
> Charley
>
> "Jon Kraus" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
> > family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful hour
> > and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then return.
> > The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
> > issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
> > much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of ice
> > that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for free. I
> > wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
> > presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants). Hell
> > the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the bill
> > and vowed to not go there again.
> >
> > Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
> > commiserate... ;-)
> >
> > Jon Kraus
> > PP-ASEL
> > Student-IA
> >
>
>