I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to
time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There are
simulators for that also.

Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how piloting
is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
then immediately touch down?

Again, inexperienced with the real thing, but isn't landing so
difficult/critical to warrant special treatment like that?

Trainer runways are not long enough?
The wear and tear would be too much?
That maneuver would be too difficult for a beginner to coordinate?

Genuinely curious. Thank you.

> I'm wondering about how piloting
> is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
> student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
> then immediately touch down?

This excercise would not teach what you think it would. Much of the
"trick" to landing is the approach, and in order to teach how to
approach the runway, you need to be far enough away from it, and
pointing in an appropriate direction. One then flies a pattern
(generally one flies parallel to the runway, and then makes a squarish
u-turn while descending and adjusting speed, flaps, and other
controls. If you do this right, the next "trick" is learning when to
flare and by how much. This requires learning the "sight picture" of
what the runway looks like when close on approach. This is different
from what it would look like just after takeoff.

One thing sometimes done in training is to approach and then fly a few
feet above the runway. This helps new pilots learn not to overcontrol.

btw, there's no such thing as a "trainer runway". Student pilots use
regular runways, and mix with regular air traffic. They just have an
instructor aboard until they can handle that much on their own.

Jose
(r.a.student retained, though I don't follow that group; I'm on
r.a.piloting)
--
Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose > wrote:

>btw, there's no such thing as a "trainer runway".

Right. I was thinking small aircraft, and was trying to concisely
distinguish between a short runway and a long runway. In other words, a
student small aircraft pilot isn't going to have the length of a 747
runway.

>Student pilots to use regular runways, and mix with regular air
>traffic. They just have an instructor aboard until they can handle
>that much on their own.

This is a great exercise with more advanced primary students, but you would
be amazed at how difficult it actually is. When you're first learning to
land, we're working hard to get the airplane nice and stabalized on final.
This gives the student plenty of time to think about his/her control inputs,
to get used to controlling, and the chance to make a mistake or two.

Normally (at least with me in the right seat) the last part of landing that
comes together is the final 10 or 15 feet. When some kind of minor upset
occurs (as it almost invariably does when passing through the tree line, and
then entering ground effect), the student needs to learn to be quick enough
in his/her recovery. This is where your suggestion shines, as it forces the
student to rapidly transition from takeoff attitude to landing attitude
while handling the winds.

(Disclaimer - while this is a great lesson for a day where you otherwise
might not be flying due to weather, make sure the ceilings are high enough
that you could go around if you have to. I've seen people do these with
100-foot ceilings in non-gyro aircraft, and it makes me nervous.)

-Rob
"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
>I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to
> time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There are
> simulators for that also.
>
> Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how piloting
> is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
> student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
> then immediately touch down?
>
> Again, inexperienced with the real thing, but isn't landing so
> difficult/critical to warrant special treatment like that?
>
> Trainer runways are not long enough?
> The wear and tear would be too much?
> That maneuver would be too difficult for a beginner to coordinate?
>
> Genuinely curious. Thank you.

"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
> Jose > wrote:
>
> >btw, there's no such thing as a "trainer runway".
>
> Right. I was thinking small aircraft, and was trying to concisely
> distinguish between a short runway and a long runway. In other words, a
> student small aircraft pilot isn't going to have the length of a 747
> runway.

Sometimes they do, but that's definately learning to swim in the deep end of
the pool.

Most runways are five to ten times the length necessary for a trainer to
take off anyway, but the instructor will still have them fly around the
pattern to set up for normal approach.

-c

The only thing I would add to the other's excellent replies; you should
begin the New Year by going down to your local airport and signing-up for an
introductory flight,,, you may find it 'hooks you in' like it did all of
us.....

There's nothing like that beautiful picture outside your windscreen or the
feel and sound of the mains as they gently (hopefully <g>) 'chirp' as they
touch the runway......

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL-IA
Student - CP-ASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

If you had the student takeoff for the first time and immediately land again
you would be subjecting him immediately to the most critical and dangerous
part of flying.... the flare and landing. And this would be before he had
an opportunity at altitude to experiment with the flight controls to see how
they react. At 5,000' you can make lots of errors with no problem. At
10', descending to land, you have to do everything right.

--

Darrell R. Schmidt
B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
>I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to
> time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There are
> simulators for that also.
>
> Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how piloting
> is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
> student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
> then immediately touch down?
>
> Again, inexperienced with the real thing, but isn't landing so
> difficult/critical to warrant special treatment like that?
>
> Trainer runways are not long enough?
> The wear and tear would be too much?
> That maneuver would be too difficult for a beginner to coordinate?
>
> Genuinely curious. Thank you.

"Cecil Chapman" > wrote:

>The only thing I would add to the other's excellent replies; you
>should begin the New Year by going down to your local airport and
>signing-up for an introductory flight,,, you may find it 'hooks you
>in' like it did all of us.....
>
>There's nothing like that beautiful picture outside your windscreen
>or the feel and sound of the mains as they gently (hopefully <g>)
>'chirp' as they touch the runway......

Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?


>
>--
>--
>=-----
>Good Flights!
>
>Cecil
>PP-ASEL-IA
>Student - CP-ASEL
>
>Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
>checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
>Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com
>
>"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
>- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
>
>"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
>this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
>- Cecil Day Lewis -
>
>
>
>
>Path: newssvr11.news.prodigy.com!newscon03.news.prodigy. com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!postma ster.news.prodigy.com!newssvr13.news.prodigy.com.P OSTED!200372ea!not-for-mail
>Reply-To: "Cecil Chapman" >
>From: "Cecil Chapman" >
>Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
>References: >
>Subject: Re: taking off for the first time
>Lines: 30
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527
>X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
>Message-ID: >
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 67.112.112.9
>X-Complaints-To:
>X-Trace: newssvr13.news.prodigy.com 1104772851 ST000 67.112.112.9 (Mon, 03 Jan 2005 12:20:51 EST)
>NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 12:20:51 EST
>Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com
>X-UserInfo1: OXYQRRCEGJWQB^LXBZHLNFXBWR\HPCTL@XT^OBPLAH[\RWYAKVUOPCW[ML\JXUCKVFDYZKBMSFX^OMSAFNTINTDDMVW[X\THOPXZRVOCJTUTPC\_JSBVX\KAOTBAJBVMZTYAKMNLDI_MFD SSOLXINH__FS^\WQGHGI^C@E[A_CF\AQLDQ\BTMPLDFNVUQ_VM
>Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 17:20:51 GMT
>Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com rec.aviation.piloting:414967 rec.aviation.student:290752
>

"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
> "Cecil Chapman" > wrote:
>
> >The only thing I would add to the other's excellent replies; you
> >should begin the New Year by going down to your local airport and
> >signing-up for an introductory flight,,, you may find it 'hooks you
> >in' like it did all of us.....
> >
> >There's nothing like that beautiful picture outside your windscreen
> >or the feel and sound of the mains as they gently (hopefully <g>)
> >'chirp' as they touch the runway......
>
> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?

That's coming pretty soon, though many people can now from airliners.


--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>"John Doe" > wrote in message

>> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?
>
>That's coming pretty soon, though many people can now from airliners.

I understand that limited Internet service is available via mobile
phones, but can you reference any post ever to Usenet while flying?

"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
> >"John Doe" > wrote in message
>
> >> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?
> >
> >That's coming pretty soon, though many people can now from airliners.
>
> I understand that limited Internet service is available via mobile
> phones, but can you reference any post ever to Usenet while flying?
>
Not that someone has bragged of doing it, but using Google Newsgroups it's
certainly possible.

What's this obsession with posting from an aircraft? If that's your
mentality level, please stick with radio-controlleds.

--
Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

Troll.

"Matt Barrow" > wrote:

>Path: newssvr12.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm05.news.prodigy. com!newscon03.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.pro digy.com!prodigy.com!newsswing.news.prodigy.com!pr odigy.net!newshosting.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.c om!tiscali!newsfeed2.ip.tiscali.net!irazu.switch.c h!switch.ch!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.t ele.dk!msc1.onvoy!onvoy.com!lenny.tc.umn.edu!feed. news.qwest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
>Reply-To: "Matt Barrow" >
>From: "Matt Barrow" >
>Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
>References: > > > > >
>Subject: Re: Has anyone posted from an airplane? (Was Re: taking off for the first time)
>Lines: 28
>Organization: Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478
>Message-ID: >
>Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:42:24 -0700
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.13.179.155
>X-Trace: news.uswest.net 1104777742 130.13.179.155 (Mon, 03 Jan 2005 12:42:22 CST)
>NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 12:42:22 CST
>Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com rec.aviation.piloting:414984 rec.aviation.student:290766
>
>
>"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
>> "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>>> "John Doe" > wrote in message
>>
>>>> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?
>>>
>>> That's coming pretty soon, though many people can now from airliners.
>>
>> I understand that limited Internet service is available via mobile
>> phones, but can you reference any post ever to Usenet while flying?
>>
>Not that someone has bragged of doing it, but using Google Newsgroups it's
>certainly possible.
>
>What's this obsession with posting from an aircraft? If that's your
>mentality level, please stick with radio-controlleds.
>
>--
>Matt
>---------------------
>Matthew W. Barrow
>Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
>Montrose, CO
>
>
>
>
>

John,

The technique you suggest was widely used prior to and during much of
World War I when the intention was to get persons to solo as quickly as
possible (and get them into combat as soon as possible; many of whom
flew in combat with under 20 hours of total time. They also tended to
be killed on their first or second mission, life expectancy was under
30 days for most WWI pilots in the middle portion of the war). Often
airplanes with clipped wings or very small engines were used, referred
to as penguins, because they would barely get into the air, and could
not climb out of ground effect.

The technique was dropped as it was learned that landing is only one
portion of the process of learning to fly.

All the best,
Rick


John Doe wrote:
> I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to

> time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There
are
> simulators for that also.
>
> Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how
piloting
> is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have
the
> student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
> then immediately touch down?
>
> Again, inexperienced with the real thing, but isn't landing so
> difficult/critical to warrant special treatment like that?
>
> Trainer runways are not long enough?
> The wear and tear would be too much?
> That maneuver would be too difficult for a beginner to coordinate?
>
> Genuinely curious. Thank you.

This was used for primary instruction in France during WWI.
Clipped-wing planes were used for short hops, and cadets graduated to
full sized planes--Bleriots, I think.

David

Jose wrote:
>> I'm wondering about how piloting is taught. Getting to the point, why
>> not use a long runway and have the student take off just enough for
>> the wheels to leave the ground and then immediately touch down?
>
>
> This excercise would not teach what you think it would. Much of the
> "trick" to landing is the approach, and in order to teach how to
> approach the runway, you need to be far enough away from it, and
> pointing in an appropriate direction. One then flies a pattern
> (generally one flies parallel to the runway, and then makes a squarish
> u-turn while descending and adjusting speed, flaps, and other controls.
> If you do this right, the next "trick" is learning when to flare and by
> how much. This requires learning the "sight picture" of what the runway
> looks like when close on approach. This is different from what it would
> look like just after takeoff.
>
> One thing sometimes done in training is to approach and then fly a few
> feet above the runway. This helps new pilots learn not to overcontrol.
>
> btw, there's no such thing as a "trainer runway". Student pilots use
> regular runways, and mix with regular air traffic. They just have an
> instructor aboard until they can handle that much on their own.
>
> Jose
> (r.a.student retained, though I don't follow that group; I'm on
> r.a.piloting)

> The technique you suggest was widely used prior to and during much of
> World War I when the intention was to get persons to solo as quickly as
> possible (and get them into combat as soon as possible; many of whom
> flew in combat with under 20 hours of total time. They also tended to
> be killed on their first or second mission, life expectancy was under
> 30 days for most WWI pilots in the middle portion of the war). Often
> airplanes with clipped wings or very small engines were used, referred
> to as penguins, because they would barely get into the air, and could
> not climb out of ground effect.

Honestly, Rick, I learn more about aviation history from your posts than
from all others, combined. Thanks for posting.

Nice article on the Bo conversion in AOPA Pilot this month, by the way.
That thing sounds like a 200 knot version of my plane!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Well.. you T/O with full power. If you want to then do an immediate
landing, you will have one hell-ov-a
power-back-flaps-down-establish-glide-flair-land TRANSITION in a very
compressed amount of time. Doesn't sound like a good learning technique to
me.

-Frank

"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
>I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to
> time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There are
> simulators for that also.
>
> Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how piloting
> is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
> student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
> then immediately touch down?
>
> Again, inexperienced with the real thing, but isn't landing so
> difficult/critical to warrant special treatment like that?
>
> Trainer runways are not long enough?
> The wear and tear would be too much?
> That maneuver would be too difficult for a beginner to coordinate?
>
> Genuinely curious. Thank you.

You missed trim adjustments & maybe some others too. I've decided not
to do touch and goes on short runways any more in my 172 of 27 years.
It just gets too darn busy & creates a chance to screw up.

David Kazdan wrote:
>
> This was used for primary instruction in France during WWI.
> Clipped-wing planes were used for short hops, and cadets graduated to
> full sized planes--Bleriots, I think.

Nordhof and Hall (who both flew for France) stated that the school in which they
learned used Bleriots for the Penguin and Rolleur classes and "Baby" Neuports
for the full flight classes.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

John Doe wrote:
>
> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?

Sure, but the extension cord's pretty expensive.

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

wrote:
>
> Often
> airplanes with clipped wings or very small engines were used, referred
> to as penguins, because they would barely get into the air, and could
> not climb out of ground effect.

Actually, Rick, as far as the French schools were concerned, the Penguins could
not fly at all. From what I've read, this is also true of the American Penguin
aircraft I saw pictured in Sport Pilot a year or so back. The second stage of
French flight schools was the "roller" class, which used planes such as you
describe. According to Nordhoff & Hall, the rollers "could fly, but you weren't
supposed to let them."

George Patterson
The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise.

"Rob Montgomery" > wrote:

>> use a long runway and have the student take off just enough for
>> the wheels to leave the ground and then immediately touch down?

>...you would be amazed at how difficult it actually is.
>...it forces the student to rapidly transition from takeoff
>attitude to landing attitude while handling the winds.
>(Disclaimer - while this is a great lesson for a day where you
>otherwise might not be flying due to weather, make sure the
>ceilings are high enough that you could go around if you have to.
>I've seen people do these with 100-foot ceilings in non-gyro
>aircraft, and it makes me nervous.)

Thanks a lot.
nrp's post I think suggests it's like a reverse touch and go.
Have fun.

>>Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?
>
> Sure, but the extension cord's pretty expensive.

You can also use one of those IR ports and post wirelessly, though
you'd need a pretty powerful beam to reach the ground. A high powered
laser ought to be able to deliver the bandwidth you'd need for Usenet
posting while piloting an aircraft. :)

Jose
r.a.student trimmed
--
Money: What you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

John Doe wrote:
> I have never piloted an aircraft.

Me neither. I've not done flight simulation either. The one Dutch guy I
contacted for a 777 sim said it'd cost a minimum of USD 12000 :(

I do flight simulation from time to
> time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There
are
> simulators for that also.

Best to come to Khartoum, Sudan. There are an unbelievable amount of
disused aircraft lying around in the airport here. I've my eye and
thoughts on buying an old YAK-40. And the rules for buying and trying
out a hand at flying aren't too strict either, though I doubt it'd be
as comparably prudent as buying a guitar and starting to learn on it
:\

> Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how
piloting
> is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have
the
> student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
> then immediately touch down?

That doesn't sound like the first exercise you want a trainee doing. A
touchdown immediately following takeoff isn't the easiest or prettiest
thing to do. Landing involves planning the descent and approach, which
is what I think the accent would (and should) be more on.
Just my 0.02,

Ramapriya

It would overwhelm you.

Taking off a foot or two, then touching down is an advanced maneuver.

Andy



On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:11:36 GMT, John Doe
> wrote:

>I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to
>time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There are
>simulators for that also.
>
>Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how piloting
>is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
>student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
>then immediately touch down?
>
>Again, inexperienced with the real thing, but isn't landing so
>difficult/critical to warrant special treatment like that?
>
>Trainer runways are not long enough?
>The wear and tear would be too much?
>That maneuver would be too difficult for a beginner to coordinate?
>
>Genuinely curious. Thank you.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:11:36 GMT, John Doe
> wrote:

>why not use a long runway and have the
>student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
>then immediately touch down?

Well, landing is more difficult than taking off, so it's a good idea
to get that firmly in hand before tackling the more difficult task.

Still, the French (and therefore the Americans) used a similar
technique in WWI. The plane was called a Penguin because it couldn't
fly.

You got it, pointed it to the other side of the field, and roared off.
Once there, it was turned around and you or somebody else roared back
to the starting point.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 03:53:03 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
> wrote:

>> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?
>
>Sure, but the extension cord's pretty expensive.

My kids made a brief stop in Seal yesterday at Annapolis. They climbed
up onto the radar platform (atop the stern gantry) with their laptops
and downloaded their email from a wi-fi node that someone had
conviently left open.

www.expeditionsail.com

John Doe ) wrote:
: "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
: >"John Doe" > wrote in message
:
: >> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?
: >
: >That's coming pretty soon, though many people can now from airliners.
:
: I understand that limited Internet service is available via mobile
: phones, but can you reference any post ever to Usenet while flying?

The right wifi gear and you should be able to post from over about
any town in the world.

And yes posting has been done from light airplanes. Search for
warflying which is realted to wardriving which is the hobby of
looking to see how many wifi access points you can find while
driving.

-tim
http://web.abnormal.com

In a previous article, (Tim Hogard) said:
>John Doe ) wrote:
>: "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>: >"John Doe" > wrote in message
>: >> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?
>: >
>: >That's coming pretty soon, though many people can now from airliners.
>:
>: I understand that limited Internet service is available via mobile
>: phones, but can you reference any post ever to Usenet while flying?
>
>The right wifi gear and you should be able to post from over about
>any town in the world.

I have a friend who used to post to Usenet (alt.folklore.urban) from
Concorde using their sky phones. This was back in the early to mid 90s
when even laptops were pretty rare. He used to joke about how many
thousands of dollars he was costing his company just to make a lame joke.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> Which ISPs provide write-only Usenet access?
From the state of Usenet in general? All of them.
-- J.D.Baldwin and Derick Siddoway

"John Doe" wrote
>> I'm wondering about how piloting is taught. Getting to the point, why not
>> use a long runway and have the student take off just enough for the
>> wheels to leave the ground and then immediately touch down?

This guy is either a kid or a troll, retarded or all of the above. He is in
a few other groups (rec.models.rc.helicopter and air). He is asking stupid
questions like " aren't fast spinning propellers blades dangerous"

"plonk"

Richard

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>
> This excercise would not teach what you think it would. Much of the
> "trick" to landing is the approach, and in order to teach how to approach
> the runway, you need to be far enough away from it, and pointing in an
> appropriate direction. One then flies a pattern (generally one flies
> parallel to the runway, and then makes a squarish u-turn while descending
> and adjusting speed, flaps, and other controls. If you do this right, the
> next "trick" is learning when to flare and by how much. This requires
> learning the "sight picture" of what the runway looks like when close on
> approach. This is different from what it would look like just after
> takeoff.
>
> One thing sometimes done in training is to approach and then fly a few
> feet above the runway. This helps new pilots learn not to overcontrol.
>
> btw, there's no such thing as a "trainer runway". Student pilots use
> regular runways, and mix with regular air traffic. They just have an
> instructor aboard until they can handle that much on their own.
>
> Jose
> (r.a.student retained, though I don't follow that group; I'm on
> r.a.piloting)
> --
> Freedom. It seemed like a good idea at the time.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

George,

Hmm, the Brits used airplanes that were capable of flight, but only in
ground effect and in a straight line. Once the student had done "solo
straights" he was moved into an airplane where he could climb and make
turns. Claude Graham-White's school is described in _The Eighth Sea_
by Frank T. Courtney, who worked there and learned to fly just prior to
the start of WWI and later flew combat in the war.

You are probably correct that the penguins could not leave the ground
at the French schools. They also used airplanes that would not climb
out of ground effect for the solo straight training, as did the Brits.
All the best,
Rick

"Freedom_In_Flying" > wrote in message
...
> "John Doe" wrote
> >> I'm wondering about how piloting is taught. Getting to the point, why
not
> >> use a long runway and have the student take off just enough for the
> >> wheels to leave the ground and then immediately touch down?
>
> This guy is either a kid or a troll, retarded or all of the above. He is
in
> a few other groups (rec.models.rc.helicopter and air). He is asking stupid
> questions like " aren't fast spinning propellers blades dangerous"
>
> "plonk"

Or maybe he's a college student.


Matt
---------------------
Matthew W. Barrow
Site-Fill Homes, LLC.
Montrose, CO

"Freedom_In_Flying" > wrote:
>"John Doe" wrote

>>> I'm wondering about how piloting is taught. Getting to the
>>> point, why not use a long runway and have the student take off
>>> just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and then
>>> immediately touch down?
>
>This guy is either a kid or a troll, retarded or all of the above.
>He is in a few other groups (rec.models.rc.helicopter and air). He
>is asking stupid questions like " aren't fast spinning propellers
>blades dangerous"

That's a lie.

I didn't start that thread and I didn't say anything about
propellers being dangerous.

>"plonk"

Grandstanding troll.




>
>Richard
>
>Path: newssvr11.news.prodigy.com!newscon03.news.prodigy. com!newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!border 1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local1.n ntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.rogers.com!news.rogers.c om.POSTED!not-for-mail
>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 06:41:57 -0600
>From: "Freedom_In_Flying" <spam @rogers.spam>
>Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
>References: > >
>Subject: Re: taking off for the first time
>Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:41:56 -0500
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180
>X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response
>Message-ID: <UZSdnQXyr7KIEkfcRVn-rg @rogers.com>
>Lines: 42
>NNTP-Posting-Host: 69.195.88.182
>X-Trace: sv3-jlvpRgzCnjmPJRQKs84j/wOhC5bj733Wi4kBO0agFLYlUI02Rn2hR8fEtcyD1ha/t0csRIysZu7tFrg!SmjPhYzAW5hkmOjng83MVqYHg+v/lBUUL+ix9j0IjXoxCZvaeiNJiZfc394lQSwvbvu52mL/
>X-Complaints-To:
>X-DMCA-Complaints-To:
>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
>X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly
>X-Postfilter: 1.3.22
>Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com rec.aviation.piloting:415096 rec.aviation.student:290814
>
>"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>>
....

Hmmmm....

........are those of us who build/fly the R/C models THAT
low?

D.






On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:42:24 -0700, "Matt Barrow" >
wrote:

>
>"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
>> "Matt Barrow" > wrote:
>> >"John Doe" > wrote in message
>>
>> >> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?
>> >
>> >That's coming pretty soon, though many people can now from airliners.
>>
>> I understand that limited Internet service is available via mobile
>> phones, but can you reference any post ever to Usenet while flying?
>>
>Not that someone has bragged of doing it, but using Google Newsgroups it's
>certainly possible.
>
>What's this obsession with posting from an aircraft? If that's your
>mentality level, please stick with radio-controlleds.

"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> Hmmmm....
>
> ........are those of us who build/fly the R/C models THAT
> low?
>
> D.

Only when you act really stupid.
--
Jim in NC

"Ramapriya" > wrote

I've not done flight simulation either.

I built a house for a guy several years ago, that was a yuckety yuk at a
commercial flight sim for US Air. I was told to give him a call, and one
night that it was not scheduled, I could come and play. I could kick my
behind for not taking him up on it.
--
Jim in NC

Troll.

"Morgans" > wrote:

>Path: newssvr30.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm05.news.prodigy. com!newsdst02.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01a.news.pro digy.com!prodigy.com!newscon06.news.prodigy.com!pr odigy.net!news-feed01.roc.ny.frontiernet.net!nntp.frontiernet.net !newsfeed2.telusplanet.net!newsfeed.telus.net!bigf eed.bellsouth.net!news.bellsouth.net!hwmnpeer01.lg a!hwmedia!hw-poster!fe05.lga.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail
>From: "Morgans" <jsmorgan @chJUarNKer.net>
>Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
>References: > > > > > > >
>Subject: Re: Has anyone posted from an airplane? (Was Re: taking off for the first time)
>Lines: 15
>X-Priority: 3
>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437
>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441
>Message-ID: <t6HCd.39786$4Y6.32054 @fe05.lga>
>X-Trace: nghlfjfcphhogbndlfpdmdlfcbgpfondhgpdhhmcaiabcignen njejjkdbckoaeiffncgfnojaonepigffccjibdjfpkeifpjifd mbokhamigmmemaencpbiccclbbibafniTˆ

>NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:08:41 MST
>Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:33:48 -0500
>Xref: newsmst01a.news.prodigy.com rec.aviation.piloting:415198 rec.aviation.student:290862
>
>
>"Dave" > wrote in message
...
>> Hmmmm....
>>
>> ........are those of us who build/fly the R/C models THAT
>> low?
>>
>> D.
>
> Only when you act really stupid.
>--
>Jim in NC
>
>
>

I recall doing only a couple of such hops as part of my training, but
that was very late in the course. (Procedural training for powerloss at
take-off, part of the emergency procedures taught here).

/Rolf

On 2005-01-04 01:08, Frankster wrote:
> Well.. you T/O with full power. If you want to then do an immediate
> landing, you will have one hell-ov-a
> power-back-flaps-down-establish-glide-flair-land TRANSITION in a very
> compressed amount of time. Doesn't sound like a good learning technique to
> me.
>
> -Frank
>
> "John Doe" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to
>>time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There are
>>simulators for that also.
>>
>>Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how piloting
>>is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
>>student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
>>then immediately touch down?
>>
>>Again, inexperienced with the real thing, but isn't landing so
>>difficult/critical to warrant special treatment like that?
>>
>>Trainer runways are not long enough?
>>The wear and tear would be too much?
>>That maneuver would be too difficult for a beginner to coordinate?
>>
>>Genuinely curious. Thank you.
>
>
>

"John Doe" > wrote in message
...
> I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to
> time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There are
> simulators for that also.
>
> Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how piloting
> is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
> student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
> then immediately touch down?
>

There is one school of thought on flight instruction where the student's
first lesson is precisely to takeoff and fly very close to the runway at
very near the landing airspeed. It's uncommon, and in some ways it demands
far more control right from the start.

More typically, the student flies the first takeoff, with the instructor
following on the controls or being prepared to take control, and the
airplane promptly leaves the airport pattern for gentle maneuvers at a
higher altitude where there is more cushion for safety.

In a sense, some would see your suggestion as similar to teaching driving to
a new driver by putting them on the interstate very near to other cars or
driving down a very narrow road, just inches from serious danger. Most
people's first driving experience is confined to a large and empty parking
lot where very precise vehicle control is not demanded at every instant.

There are benefits to your suggestion, but it's not common.

--

Scott

Like the archers of Agincourt, John O'Neill and the 254 Swiftboat Veterans
took down their own haughty Frenchman. - Ann Coulter

On 1/5/2005 14:21, tscottme wrote:

> "John Doe" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I have never piloted an aircraft. I do flight simulation from time to
>> time. Currently I am messing with radio controlled aircraft. There are
>> simulators for that also.
>>
>> Having only simulation experience, but I'm wondering about how piloting
>> is taught. Getting to the point, why not use a long runway and have the
>> student take off just enough for the wheels to leave the ground and
>> then immediately touch down?
>>
>
> There is one school of thought on flight instruction where the student's
> first lesson is precisely to takeoff and fly very close to the runway at
> very near the landing airspeed. It's uncommon, and in some ways it demands
> far more control right from the start.
>
> More typically, the student flies the first takeoff, with the instructor
> following on the controls or being prepared to take control, and the
> airplane promptly leaves the airport pattern for gentle maneuvers at a
> higher altitude where there is more cushion for safety.
>
> In a sense, some would see your suggestion as similar to teaching driving to
> a new driver by putting them on the interstate very near to other cars or
> driving down a very narrow road, just inches from serious danger. Most
> people's first driving experience is confined to a large and empty parking
> lot where very precise vehicle control is not demanded at every instant.
>
> There are benefits to your suggestion, but it's not common.

Actually, this is how it is done in ultralight training when you
don't have an instructor. Although I don't remember the name of the
book right now, it is a staple in Ultralight flying. It suggested that
your initial flights be short "crow-hops" where you get used to the
feeling of the vehicle in ground effect and flaring for landing.

This, of course, comes after some prerequisites, like a thorough
understanding of the principles of flight, taxiing at different
speeds, etc.

However, as others have said, it's not practical for normal flight
training, as you have an instructor ready and able to help in the
event there are any problems. You don't even have to know how to
land until later in your training career.


>


--
Mark Hansen
PP-ASEL, C-172M/G

Mark Hansen > wrote:

>... you have an instructor ready and able to help in the event
>there are any problems. You don't even have to know how to land
>until later in your training career.

Unless your instructor has a heart attack [kidding].
Thanks for the kind replies.

John Doe wrote:
> Jose > wrote:
>
>> btw, there's no such thing as a "trainer runway".
>
> Right. I was thinking small aircraft, and was trying to concisely
> distinguish between a short runway and a long runway. In other words,
> a student small aircraft pilot isn't going to have the length of a 747
> runway.

Why not?
Just consider Paine Field, which has heavy flight school traffic but also
from where every single 747 and 757 made their maiden flight. That big
9000x150 runway was built for the heavy metal but of course it is also used
for flight training.
Or Moses Lake, which used to be an airforce base, with a giant 13500x200
runway and very little commercial traffic (although it's an important
alternate airport for the Seatlle/Portland area).

Of course those airports have smaller runways, too, but if you ask for the
big one you usually will get it.

jue

John Doe wrote:
> "Cecil Chapman" > wrote:
> Can you fly and post to Usenet at the same time?

That depends on your definition of "flying".
Any modern airliner has data hookups for laptops nowadays, at least in
business/first class.

jue

On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 08:44:33 GMT, "Jürgen Exner"
> wrote:

>That big
>9000x150 runway was built for the heavy metal but of course it is also used
>for flight training.

The former Pease AFB near Portsmouth NH is now a commercial airport;
its runway is 11,321 feet. Alas for making Penguin runs on it,
however, often enough the ATC guy requires taildraggers to make touch
& go's rather than stop & go's. He likes to keep his runway clear.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
the blog: www.danford.net