Hi all,

I have posted three times, regarding the radio problems, that have
seemed impossible to identify root cause for:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_frm/thread/67fb608ffde2515a/3209e45844bccf31?q=three-eight-hotel&rnum=1#3209e45844bccf31

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_frm/thread/981307ec4df68cc6/9681f31af512b6aa?lnk=st&q=&rnum=26#9681f31af512b6aa

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_frm/thread/af371a23b23cfc1e/fc6bb2d7a73268b6#fc6bb2d7a73268b6

This weekend, I went up with a friend (more electronics savvy than I)
and we flew to breakfast, troubleshooting on the way. The radio never
worked, from my initial call, to my landing at the destination (used
the handheld as a backup).

He mentioned a past problem he had with the relay switch in his audio
panel, and we slid my panel out to take a look... There is a relay
switch, labeled: AMF Potter Brumfield with a part number of:
R40-E1-X4. We popped out that switch, and he carefully tried to open
it up with his pocket knife. He got it half-way out, but didn't want
to force it, so re-inserted it, but also made a visual inspection for
any obvious signs of defect. Nothing obvious was visible.

After breakfast, we threw it back in the plane and the radio worked
perfectly (for the first time in a long time).

So we're thinking one of the relay connections may have been sticking,
and the slight fidgiting with it, might have helped, at least
temporarily??? I'll keep flying it, and hope that the problem may have
been resolved, but I would really like to get another relay switch as a
standby, assuming they they are relatively cheap? Problem is... I
can't seem to find one, on the web, without going through some
mega-part store with large minimum orders required.

Does anyone have an idea where I might be able to find this part?

AMF Potter Brumfield R40-E1-X4

Thanks in advance for any recommendations! And, thanks to all of those
in the past who provided feedback to this frustrating issue!

Best Regards,
Todd

three-eight-hotel wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have posted three times, regarding the radio problems, that have
> seemed impossible to identify root cause for:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_frm/thread/67fb608ffde2515a/3209e45844bccf31?q=three-eight-hotel&rnum=1#3209e45844bccf31
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_frm/thread/981307ec4df68cc6/9681f31af512b6aa?lnk=st&q=&rnum=26#9681f31af512b6aa
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.owning/browse_frm/thread/af371a23b23cfc1e/fc6bb2d7a73268b6#fc6bb2d7a73268b6
>
> This weekend, I went up with a friend (more electronics savvy than I)
> and we flew to breakfast, troubleshooting on the way. The radio never
> worked, from my initial call, to my landing at the destination (used
> the handheld as a backup).
>
> He mentioned a past problem he had with the relay switch in his audio
> panel, and we slid my panel out to take a look... There is a relay
> switch, labeled: AMF Potter Brumfield with a part number of:
> R40-E1-X4. We popped out that switch, and he carefully tried to open
> it up with his pocket knife. He got it half-way out, but didn't want
> to force it, so re-inserted it, but also made a visual inspection for
> any obvious signs of defect. Nothing obvious was visible.
>
> After breakfast, we threw it back in the plane and the radio worked
> perfectly (for the first time in a long time).
>
> So we're thinking one of the relay connections may have been sticking,
> and the slight fidgiting with it, might have helped, at least
> temporarily??? I'll keep flying it, and hope that the problem may have
> been resolved, but I would really like to get another relay switch as a
> standby, assuming they they are relatively cheap? Problem is... I
> can't seem to find one, on the web, without going through some
> mega-part store with large minimum orders required.
>
> Does anyone have an idea where I might be able to find this part?
>
> AMF Potter Brumfield R40-E1-X4
>
> Thanks in advance for any recommendations! And, thanks to all of those
> in the past who provided feedback to this frustrating issue!

Google found a couple of places, e.g.

<http://www.mistersprockets.com/relays.html>

4935-LW-M02-9619 SEE R40-E1-X4-V200 85 $

Hope this helps

--

Tauno Voipio (Piper Turbo Arrow IV, OH-PYM)
tauno voipio (at) iki fi

Thanks Tauno!

I hit google, and recall seeing "mistersprockets", but don't recall why
I didn't notice they have no minimum order???

Anyway, a related question... I noticed on several of the other sites,
I got from the google search, the -V200 after the part number. I also
saw several other post-fixes for similar parts. I don't recall seeing
anything after the -X4 on the switch in the audio panel, and would have
certainly wrote it down if I had. Can someone tell me the significance
of the -V200, and if it is compatible with what would be in the audio
panel?

Thanks!
Todd

MisterSprockets say they can sell me the switch for $150, or $65 each
if I buy 5! I think I can pick up an entire used audio panel for ~
$150, so I may hang tight and see if the radio continues to work.

I think I may also take another shot at opening that switch up and
spraying the component/connector cleaner in it for good measure.

Thanks,
Todd

I believe the v200 means it has a 200 ohm coil resistance. Thus at 12v, it
will draw 60ma of current. The same relay is also available with 3.2k ohm
and 800 ohm coils.

"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Thanks Tauno!
>
> I hit google, and recall seeing "mistersprockets", but don't recall why
> I didn't notice they have no minimum order???
>
> Anyway, a related question... I noticed on several of the other sites,
> I got from the google search, the -V200 after the part number. I also
> saw several other post-fixes for similar parts. I don't recall seeing
> anything after the -X4 on the switch in the audio panel, and would have
> certainly wrote it down if I had. Can someone tell me the significance
> of the -V200, and if it is compatible with what would be in the audio
> panel?
>
> Thanks!
> Todd
>

On 7-Nov-2005, "three-eight-hotel" > wrote:

> Does anyone have an idea where I might be able to find this part?
>
> AMF Potter Brumfield R40-E1-X4



Potter Brumfield is now a subsidiary of Tyco. The Potter Brumfield page of
the Tyco Electronics website (http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/pnb.asp)
does not show the R40 series, so I suspect that you have an obsolete part
number. (How old is the audio panel?) It is possible that there is a
plug-compatible new part (or just a new part number for the same part), but
you would probably have to call Potter Brumfield to get a cross reference.
If you do find a direct replacement, a distributor like Digikey
(www.digikey.com) will probably be able to provide one at a reasonable
price, unless it is a really exotic part.

Good luck!

--
-Elliott Drucker

What is a relay switch? I've never seen one. I've seen relays. I've seen
switches. I've never seen a relay switch.

Most avionics designers shy away from really exotic and hard to find stuff.
If this is a simple relay and somebody can come up with a pinout for it, you
can easily modify an off the shelf relay to do the job. It may even have a
Rat Schlock part number on it !

Jim

>
> He mentioned a past problem he had with the relay switch in his audio
> panel, and we slid my panel out to take a look... There is a relay
> switch, labeled: AMF Potter Brumfield with a part number of:
> R40-E1-X4. We popped out that switch, and he carefully tried to open
> it up with his pocket knife. He got it half-way out, but didn't want
> to force it, so re-inserted it, but also made a visual inspection for
> any obvious signs of defect. Nothing obvious was visible.

RST Engineering wrote:
> What is a relay switch? I've never seen one. I've seen relays. I've seen
> switches. I've never seen a relay switch.
>
> Most avionics designers shy away from really exotic and hard to find stuff.
> If this is a simple relay and somebody can come up with a pinout for it, you
> can easily modify an off the shelf relay to do the job. It may even have a
> Rat Schlock part number on it !
>
> Jim
>
>
>>He mentioned a past problem he had with the relay switch in his audio
>>panel, and we slid my panel out to take a look... There is a relay
>>switch, labeled: AMF Potter Brumfield with a part number of:
>>R40-E1-X4. We popped out that switch, and he carefully tried to open
>>it up with his pocket knife. He got it half-way out, but didn't want
>>to force it, so re-inserted it, but also made a visual inspection for
>>any obvious signs of defect. Nothing obvious was visible.
>
>
>
relays are commonly called relay switches. <soda = soda pop = pop = cokes>

Excuse me, "Robet", but after 46 years in the biz you'd think I would know
of whence I speak. Because I like to give advice that is correct, I ask for
confirmation of things I don't understand. I don't understand "relay
switch" because I've never heard of it. It is neither common nor
conventional.

If you can't add anything to the problem/solution except pedantry, butt the
hell out.

Jim


"Robet Coffey" > wrote in message
news:5W1cf.6689$Bx.5092@trnddc01...
> RST Engineering wrote:
>> What is a relay switch?


> relays are commonly called relay switches. <soda = soda pop = pop = cokes>

"RST Engineering" wrote:
> What is a relay switch? I've never seen one. I've seen
> relays. I've seen switches. I've never seen a relay switch.
>

A quick Google shows the R40-etc. is a discontinued relay. It
would seem like a Rube Goldberg setup for a simple audio switching
panel. Unless it fancily switches comm 1/2 with simple pushbuttons
and indicator lights. Thence a latching relay, or more Rube
Goldbergian, with a monostable and a flip-flop? But if it has a
BOTH feature, then how we do that? :-)

Reg,
Fred F.

I think "relay" is the correct terminology for this component. I
thought they were referred to as "relay switches", but all sites I have
seen do refer to them as "relays".

I'll have to go in and take a closer look to see if there are any other
numbers on this panel to be able to respond more accurately. My last
trip up to the airport, I tried to document names and model numbers of
all avionics in the panel so I could provide better data. The audio
panel didn't have a name on it that I could decipher... All I could
recall getting from it was the info off the relay, including the
manufacturer and part number. I don't recall if there was any
additional information???

I also don't have any idea how old it is? I was surprised, however to
find that the relay for a second COM and marker beacon components were
removed. That's what I get for buying used and having it installed
sight-unseen! I'm learning some valuable lessons, the hard way!

If anyone cares, I will post an update after I've had a chance to get
up and look at the audio panel again... May be a few days...

Thanks again for the feedback!
Todd

three-eight-hotel > wrote:
: I also don't have any idea how old it is? I was surprised, however to
: find that the relay for a second COM and marker beacon components were
: removed. That's what I get for buying used and having it installed
: sight-unseen! I'm learning some valuable lessons, the hard way!

If it is a Cessna audio panel many came without hookups for 2nd com,
makers, etc. I flew many C-152's with single com and Cessna audio panel.
The audio panel has switch holes for more radios, but no switches in
said holes. The PCB has spaces for relays, resistors, etc. but no components
installed.

If, indeed, it is a Cessna audio panel, you can get another one from
Airwich Avionics. Or, you could toss it and get a better audio panel.

--
Aaron C.

Robet Coffey wrote:

> relays are commonly called relay switches. <soda = soda pop = pop = cokes>

In what part of the world? I've been an EE for 20 years and I've never
heard of a device called a relay switch. Maybe it is common somewhere
in the world, but not in the USA.


Matt

>> If it is a Cessna audio panel many came without hookups for 2nd com,
>> makers, etc. I flew many C-152's with single com and Cessna audio panel.
>> The audio panel has switch holes for more radios, but no switches in
>> said holes. The PCB has spaces for relays, resistors, etc. but no >> components
>> installed.

That seems to be the case, however, I was told that it included marker
beacon indicators... All word of mouth/he-said-she-said, so I guess
going down that road is a lost cause (I've had the audio panel for
nearly a year now)

>> If, indeed, it is a Cessna audio panel, you can get another one from
>> Airwich Avionics. Or, you could toss it and get a better audio panel.

I checked out this site, and they didn't seem to have any audio panels.
Believe me... a new audio panel has crossed my mind, several times,
but I would be looking at a re-wire to accomodate the new audio panel,
and remove my intercom (since it would likely be built into a newer
audio panel). When all is said and done, I would probably be looking
at $1500 -$2000 (just a guess). If I can get away with what I've got,
and potentially get away with a ~$20 relay fix, I would be happy with
that, until I can really afford to go in and upgrade the entire panel.

Thanks for the input!
Todd

RST Engineering wrote:
> Excuse me, "Robet", but after 46 years in the biz you'd think I would know
> of whence I speak. Because I like to give advice that is correct, I ask for
> confirmation of things I don't understand. I don't understand "relay
> switch" because I've never heard of it. It is neither common nor
> conventional.
>
> If you can't add anything to the problem/solution except pedantry, butt the
> hell out.
>
> Jim
>
>
> "Robet Coffey" > wrote in message
> news:5W1cf.6689$Bx.5092@trnddc01...
>
>>RST Engineering wrote:
>>
>>>What is a relay switch?
>
>
>
>>relays are commonly called relay switches. <soda = soda pop = pop = cokes>
>
>
>
RST Engineering wrote:

> What is a relay switch? I've never seen one. I've seen relays.
I've seen switches. I've never seen a relay switch.

you knew what the poster meant by relay switch, you were just being a
asshole trying to embarrass a layperson for calling it a relay switch
instead of simply a relay- pompous ass. nontechnical persons like
myself, the poster incorrectly use the term from time to time....deal
with it.

Matt Whiting wrote:
> Robet Coffey wrote:
>
>> relays are commonly called relay switches. <soda = soda pop = pop =
>> cokes>
>
>
> In what part of the world? I've been an EE for 20 years and I've never
> heard of a device called a relay switch. Maybe it is common somewhere
> in the world, but not in the USA.
>
>
> Matt
Matt I doubt many EE would call it a relay switch. I live in the
southeast (coalfields) and have heard non-technical people (myself
included) use the term "relay" and "relay switch" interchangeably most
of my life. Incorrectly so, I take it. I don't know where the poster is
from so I can't speak for him/her. I do want to stress that I am
layperson in electronics and have heard the term only used by like persons.

Come visit the coalfields... we likely have many words you won't hear
anywhere else in the U.S.!

Robet Coffey wrote:
> Matt Whiting wrote:

>> In what part of the world? I've been an EE for 20 years and I've
>> never heard of a device called a relay switch. Maybe it is common
>> somewhere in the world, but not in the USA.
>>
> Matt I doubt many EE would call it a relay switch. I live in the
> southeast (coalfields) and have heard non-technical people (myself
> included) use the term "relay" and "relay switch" interchangeably most
> of my life. Incorrectly so, I take it. I don't know where the poster is
> from so I can't speak for him/her. I do want to stress that I am
> layperson in electronics and have heard the term only used by like persons.

I've got less years than Jim but more than Matt in the gulf states
oilfield onshore/offshore (Texas to Florida and the Caribbean) as a
tech. This was the first time I've heard the term "relay switch" by even
"non-technical people"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=relay+switch&go=Go
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relay%20switch
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/relay%20switch

Okay... so non-technical doesn't even begin to describe me, when it
comes to electronics. I also thought my original problem was due to a
malfunctioning fetzer value and thought some gauze and ball-bearings
might do the trick (Fletch reference) :-)

In my defense, I looked at several sites for the part that matched that
part number, including some searches that included the words relay and
switch. A simple google search on "relay switch" comes up with an
entire page of which "relay switch" is used in the title or brief
description for every hit. I didn't look into the details of any one
link, but may have made a sub-conscious conclusion that the terminology
was valid.

Putting the relay vs. relay switch discussion aside, these groups are
an incredible source for someone to get assistance in an area they are
not comfortable. Even though I may come across as a moron at times, I
have gained a substantial amount of knowledge and most importantly have
decided to stop looking at my plane as a black-box, which reponds to
power and control inputs.

I will humbly listen to anyone who has taken the time to respond to my
posts and make a decision whether that feedback is worthy of follow-up
effort on my part or not.

Respond as condescendingly or as humbly as you want, just respond! ;-)
Advice on these newsgroups is free, but taking my plane in to an
avionics shop, I don't trust, to troubleshoot a problem that could
require significant hours of labor is not! I'll take what I can get!

Thanks to all and best regards!
Todd

Darrel Toepfer wrote:
> Robet Coffey wrote:
>
>> Matt Whiting wrote:
>
>
>>> In what part of the world? I've been an EE for 20 years and I've
>>> never heard of a device called a relay switch. Maybe it is common
>>> somewhere in the world, but not in the USA.
>>>
>> Matt I doubt many EE would call it a relay switch. I live in the
>> southeast (coalfields) and have heard non-technical people (myself
>> included) use the term "relay" and "relay switch" interchangeably most
>> of my life. Incorrectly so, I take it. I don't know where the poster
>> is from so I can't speak for him/her. I do want to stress that I am
>> layperson in electronics and have heard the term only used by like
>> persons.
>
>
> I've got less years than Jim but more than Matt in the gulf states
> oilfield onshore/offshore (Texas to Florida and the Caribbean) as a
> tech. This was the first time I've heard the term "relay switch" by even
> "non-technical people"...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=relay+switch&go=Go
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=relay%20switch
> http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/relay%20switch

It could be slang, but I'm not making it up. Google search actually
turned up a few.
www.nema.org/prod/be/enclosures/housings/relay-switch/
www.extensivemods.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=74 - 16k -
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3126.htm
and here are some harvard doods that designs them:

Optimal Design of a MEMS Relay Switch
Authors: M.P. Brenner, J. Lang, J. Li, J. Qiu and A. Slocum
Affilation: Harvard University, USA
Pages: 214 - 217

They are for microelectromechanical devices, so I guess it's used (by
us)a little out of context.

Robert Coffey wrote:

> It could be slang, but I'm not making it up. Google search actually
> turned up a few.

I avoid Google and Yahoo, just because...

> www.nema.org/prod/be/enclosures/housings/relay-switch/

Has links that loop. I surmise that they have enclosures for relays and
switches from the listed manufacturers...

> www.extensivemods.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=74 - 16k -

Switches 12 volts, has a 2 amp limit... No relay is visible...

> http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3126.htm

Looks to be a SPDT Relay... All relays "switch" between NO and/or NC
contacts... A switch does just that between Open & Closed states...

I didn't mean to start an argument, I just wanted to know what I was dealing
with. Now that I know it is a relay, I can tell you how to replace it with
a genuine Radio Shack part if you wish. Give me the manufacturer and part
number again and I'll go back into the dusty part of the library and see if
I can find an old data sheet. I can then tell you how to cobble a
replacement part in.

Jim


"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I think "relay" is the correct terminology for this component. I
> thought they were referred to as "relay switches", but all sites I have
> seen do refer to them as "relays".

We routinely use relays in audio panels for the simple reason that the mic
audio is a rather finicky beast that requires metal switching to perform
reliably. Trying to do it solid-state is a recipe for failure.

Jim




"TaxSrv" > wrote in message
...
> "RST Engineering" wrote:
>> What is a relay switch? I've never seen one. I've seen
>> relays. I've seen switches. I've never seen a relay switch.
>>
>
> A quick Google shows the R40-etc. is a discontinued relay. It
> would seem like a Rube Goldberg setup for a simple audio switching
> panel. Unless it fancily switches comm 1/2 with simple pushbuttons
> and indicator lights. Thence a latching relay, or more Rube
> Goldbergian, with a monostable and a flip-flop? But if it has a
> BOTH feature, then how we do that? :-)
>
> Reg,
> Fred F.
>

>> I can tell you how to replace it with a genuine Radio Shack part if you wish

That would be awesome, if for nothing else a backup if this thing
starts to mis-behave again. Since fiddling with the relay at the
restaurant it hasn't yet failed, but that was only 25 minutes of
flying, post fiddle...

>> Give me the manufacturer and part
>> number again and I'll go back into the dusty part of the library and see if
>> I can find an old data sheet. I can then tell you how to cobble a
>> replacement part in.

I'm going up tomorrow and will post everything I can find... AMF
Potter Brumfield R40-E1-X4 was the only thing I can recall seeing, but
I'll take a look again. Definitely no manufacturer name on the audio
panel itself???

Thanks!
Todd

The info off the relay says:

AMF Potter & Brumfield
R40-E1-X4-V200 12VDC

7705

Thanks!
Todd

And I can't find my old P&B catalog to save my soul. It may have been a
victim of one of my "haven't used it in twenty years, throw it out" library
purgings of last year. Best I can find is that it is a 3 pole, double throw
relay. That sort of gobs up the works, but we can still find a replacement
if you will tell me how it connects into the panel. Is it a plug in? Bolt
down? Can you take a picture of it and post it somewhere? We can cobble
anything if we know the form factor, even if it means three SPDT micro
relays in the same space.

Jim



"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The info off the relay says:
>
> AMF Potter & Brumfield
> R40-E1-X4-V200 12VDC
>
> 7705
>
> Thanks!
> Todd
>

Thanks for looking Jim!

I found a link for someone that sells components and requested to have
a relay shipped to me. I'll probably put that one in and keep the
other one for a backup, although I'd be surprised if this is a common
problem given the number of Cessna audio panels that are out there and
still working...

I am probably going to try and find another audio panel, with marker
beacons and the componentry to support another COM, so I can throw one
in some day. I'd love to bite the bullet and upgrade to a newer audio
panel, but that would require a rewire and would be quite expensive!
What I have in there now serves my purpose, when it all works!!! ;-)

Thanks again for all of the input! I will post an update on how things
go, once I've had a chance to replace the relay. As for the immediate
problem... it has not come back, since we fiddled with the current
relay, although, I've only got about 3 hours of flight time since.
None-the-less, I wasn't getting that much functionality out of it, when
it was intermittently working!

Best Regards,
Todd

Received a new relay on Wednesday, plugged it into the audio panel and
slid the audio panel back into the stack this morning.

Took off out of Georgetown, after making my radio calls (with sidetone
on every call), turned downwind, and set the trim for a 300 fpm climb,
while I started tuning in frequencies. First SAC ATIS.... Loud and
Clear. Second NorCal approach... Loud and Clear. Back to GT freq
123.05 and heard numerous calls at Marysville and Cameron Park.

As I continued to climb, through 7000 feet, I considered turning right
45 degrees and heading over Lake Tahoe as the winds were calm and the
weather was gorgeous. As I prepared to turn, I noticed Nevada Co.
airport and Grass Valley off to my immediate left. Tuned into the
local frequency, let them know my position and asked for a radio
check.... LOUD AND CLEAR!

Waved hello to Jim (probably didn't see me), and decided I would head
back home and get some chores done, even though I could have flown all
day! Did I mention it was gorgeous out there?

Thanks for everyone's patience and help over the last few months! I'm
so glad to think this nightmare could finally be behind me, and am
ready to head up and get that instrument currency, now that I can
communicate!!! I just hit 6 months without my approaches a few weeks
back, so I'll have to go up with a friend and get some hood work done.
After that, I'm looking for some of that Valley fog, as I'm ready for
some actual!!!

Best Regards,
Todd

On 11/19/2005 4:06 PM, three-eight-hotel wrote:
> Received a new relay on Wednesday, plugged it into the audio panel and
> slid the audio panel back into the stack this morning.
>
> Took off out of Georgetown, after making my radio calls (with sidetone
> on every call), turned downwind, and set the trim for a 300 fpm climb,
> while I started tuning in frequencies. First SAC ATIS.... Loud and
> Clear. Second NorCal approach... Loud and Clear. Back to GT freq
> 123.05 and heard numerous calls at Marysville and Cameron Park.
>
> As I continued to climb, through 7000 feet, I considered turning right
> 45 degrees and heading over Lake Tahoe as the winds were calm and the
> weather was gorgeous. As I prepared to turn, I noticed Nevada Co.
> airport and Grass Valley off to my immediate left. Tuned into the
> local frequency, let them know my position and asked for a radio
> check.... LOUD AND CLEAR!
>
> Waved hello to Jim (probably didn't see me), and decided I would head
> back home and get some chores done, even though I could have flown all
> day! Did I mention it was gorgeous out there?
>
> Thanks for everyone's patience and help over the last few months! I'm
> so glad to think this nightmare could finally be behind me, and am
> ready to head up and get that instrument currency, now that I can
> communicate!!! I just hit 6 months without my approaches a few weeks
> back, so I'll have to go up with a friend and get some hood work done.
> After that, I'm looking for some of that Valley fog, as I'm ready for
> some actual!!!
>
> Best Regards,
> Todd
>

That's great news. I had a problem with an ANR headset early in
my training that almost caused me to stop. Luckily, before I did,
I tried out a cheapo pair of non ANR and have never gone back.

To this day, I still marvel over how well I can hear each communication.
It's amazing how precious it can be once you've had to do without for
some time!

By the way, do you already have someone lined-up for the instrument
practice?

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

>> To this day, I still marvel over how well I can hear each communication.
>> It's amazing how precious it can be once you've had to do without for
>> some time!

No kidding! I've been dying to do some practice IFR flying, but afraid
of having to go the handheld and tell ATC that I'm just going to resume
own nav back to Georgetown, rather than trying to concentrate on
approaches and fuss with a handheld (and not be able to communicate to
the guy in the right seat). I sooooo hope this is the end of it, and I
can get back to hearing and talking to everyone!

>> By the way, do you already have someone lined-up for the instrument
>> practice?

Someone that's always willing, but not necessarily lined up...

If you're up for some evening flying, we should get in touch.

Best Regards!
Todd

On 11/19/2005 5:24 PM, three-eight-hotel wrote:
>>> To this day, I still marvel over how well I can hear each communication.
>>> It's amazing how precious it can be once you've had to do without for
>>> some time!
>
> No kidding! I've been dying to do some practice IFR flying, but afraid
> of having to go the handheld and tell ATC that I'm just going to resume
> own nav back to Georgetown, rather than trying to concentrate on
> approaches and fuss with a handheld (and not be able to communicate to
> the guy in the right seat). I sooooo hope this is the end of it, and I
> can get back to hearing and talking to everyone!
>
>>> By the way, do you already have someone lined-up for the instrument
>>> practice?
>
> Someone that's always willing, but not necessarily lined up...
>
> If you're up for some evening flying, we should get in touch.

Weekends are better, but I would like to help if you need it.
Contact me off-list any time.


>
> Best Regards!
> Todd
>


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Sacramento, CA

Will do.... Thanks Mark!

OK, now take that old relay, get a piece of bond copy paper and some pure
isopropyl (the 99% stuff) alcohol, tear/cut a strip of the bond paper about
a quarter of an inch wide, soak the first two inches of the paper in the
alcohol, and run the paper between EACH of the contacts of the old relay,
holding pressure on the top and bottom contact just enough so that the paper
doesn't tear.

You will find as the contacts leave the alcohol part of the paper a strip of
black "gunk" down the dry part of the paper. Keep running the paper through
these contacts until the paper no longer has a black stripe on it -- and
then go to the next set of contacts. Don't forget to do BOTH sets of
contacts on a pole -- the upper and lower both get equally dirty.

Now do the NEXT set of contacts and so on. You now have a perfectly clean
relay for the next time the new one honks up.

(BTW, this trick works for switches, relays, and anywhere else you have a
relatively low current set of contacts.)

Do NOT use a file or a "relay contact cleaner" strip. These will peel any
precious metal plating off in the first swipe.

Jim


"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Received a new relay on Wednesday, plugged it into the audio panel and
> slid the audio panel back into the stack this morning.

Thanks! I will do that...

Off topic question:

The audio panel from the front, has every indication that it has marker
beacons (O, M, I indicators), but there's nothing there... Simply no
led's or wires to the panel. This would seem like a fairly simple
thing to implement??? Should I just cut my losses and be happy I can
communicate, or am I getting greedy, thinking I could go to Radio Shack
and with minimal effort, upgrade this existing audio panel by myself?

If you think it's not worth the effort, I'll close this thread and open
a new one on how to repack and seal the front nose strut, or how to
find the source for fuel in the cabin smell after topping the tanks, or
tip tanks... Keep em' full or not??? :-))

Thanks!
Todd

RST Engineering > wrote:
: OK, now take that old relay, get a piece of bond copy paper and some pure
: isopropyl (the 99% stuff) alcohol, tear/cut a strip of the bond paper about
: a quarter of an inch wide, soak the first two inches of the paper in the
: alcohol, and run the paper between EACH of the contacts of the old relay,
: holding pressure on the top and bottom contact just enough so that the paper
: doesn't tear.


I find old business cards are just the right thickness & strength to handle
this task. Since my old company changed area codes, then logos, I have enough
old business cards to last a few lifetimes.
--
Aaron C.

: : OK, now take that old relay, get a piece of bond copy paper and some pure
: : isopropyl (the 99% stuff) alcohol, tear/cut a strip of the bond paper about
: : a quarter of an inch wide, soak the first two inches of the paper in the
: : alcohol, and run the paper between EACH of the contacts of the old relay,
: : holding pressure on the top and bottom contact just enough so that the paper
: : doesn't tear.


: I find old business cards are just the right thickness & strength to handle
: this task. Since my old company changed area codes, then logos, I have enough
: old business cards to last a few lifetimes.
: --
IIRC, the Bendix mag service instructions allow for cleaning of the points
using exactly that... a business card. Note, however, that pulling it through is
*NOT* allowed... simply closing the points on it and opening it back up.

I think that it has to do with the microscopic roughness on the mating
surfaces. Once they've "worn in," dragging a card through will cause the "teeth" not
to mate anymore.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

You might be able to find light bulbs at The Shack, but more probably would
be a model train shop for 12 volt grain-of-wheat lamps.

Jim



"three-eight-hotel" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Thanks! I will do that...
>
> Off topic question:
>
> The audio panel from the front, has every indication that it has marker
> beacons (O, M, I indicators), but there's nothing there... Simply no
> led's or wires to the panel. This would seem like a fairly simple
> thing to implement??? Should I just cut my losses and be happy I can
> communicate, or am I getting greedy, thinking I could go to Radio Shack
> and with minimal effort, upgrade this existing audio panel by myself?

"three-eight-hotel" > writes:

>Thanks! I will do that...

>Off topic question:

>The audio panel from the front, has every indication that it has marker
>beacons (O, M, I indicators), but there's nothing there... Simply no
>led's or wires to the panel. This would seem like a fairly simple
>thing to implement??? Should I just cut my losses and be happy I can
>communicate, or am I getting greedy, thinking I could go to Radio Shack
>and with minimal effort, upgrade this existing audio panel by myself?

Does the panel have the decoders; just no indicators? It could be
the PCB section for that function was never populated, or it's a
daughter board that was not installed...


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

hmmm...??? If you followed any of my previous posts, you wouldn't be
surprised that I don't know what decoders or PCB's are... LOL!!! ;-)

The holes for the tri-colored lights are on the panel and labeled, but
there is nothing behind them. No led's, no wires... Is there an
entire daughter board that runs the MB's? I may be biting off more
than I can chew, but looking at pics of other Cessna audio panels
on-line, it just looked like there were led's and wires running to the
main board, but it was hard to tell...

Thanks,
Todd

three-eight-hotel wrote:
> hmmm...??? If you followed any of my previous posts, you wouldn't be
> surprised that I don't know what decoders or PCB's are... LOL!!! ;-)
>
> The holes for the tri-colored lights are on the panel and labeled, but
> there is nothing behind them. No led's, no wires... Is there an
> entire daughter board that runs the MB's? I may be biting off more
> than I can chew, but looking at pics of other Cessna audio panels
> on-line, it just looked like there were led's and wires running to the
> main board, but it was hard to tell...

I've got the Marker Beacon receiver out of a Tomahawk if you need one,
don't have the pin outs for it though, its a TKM unit...

three-eight-hotel wrote:
/snip/
> If you think it's not worth the effort, I'll close this thread and open
> a new one on how to repack and seal the front nose strut, or how to
> find the source for fuel in the cabin smell after topping the tanks, or
> tip tanks... Keep em' full or not??? :-))
>
> Thanks!
> Todd
>

Todd,

Close this thread now! ;) Those old Cessna audio panels (actually, just
switching panels) were junk the day they were new, and have NOT improved
with age. To make the marker beacons work, you need a marker receiver
box (R403B, IIRC), plus all the associatd wiring, PLUS the missing
components on your "audio panel".

IMHO, it's not worth it. Stop putting any money in to the unit you
have, and save up for a true upgrade, when you "just gotta have"
improved capability.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane
N92054

All righty then...

Consider this thread closed. I'm going to count my blessings and be
happy I can communicate, and focus on the aviate part again! ;-)

I'll start putting some money aside and start upgrading my panel the
next time a piece of avionics goes toes-up.

Thanks again to all for your input. and... for the record... I
realized after my last send, that I do know what a Printed Circuit
Board is... ;-)

Best Regards,
Todd