You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like the
taxi speed limit. What do you do?

a) Hope the Cap'n recognizes the deviation on his own;
b) Just pretend you didn't notice it;
c) Get the Cap'n a coffee and gently suggest that you thought
something's a wee amiss; or
d) Tell the Cap'n immediately and emphatically... not recommended, I'd
imagine, considering you'd probably have to work together often after
that too :)

Presume that there isn't a procedure in the SOP on how to handle
deviations of the Cap'n (kidding) ;)

At least one very experienced pilot has told me that such a scenario
isn't as highly improbable as I'd first imagined :)

Cheers,

Ramapriya

Ramapriya wrote:
> You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
> from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like
> the taxi speed limit. What do you do?


"Hey Bud, check the speed."

Try the Carnegie approach - "You've always been such a behavior model
to me that I'm surprised that you are (whatever). Is there a reason
for the change?"

You might have to step into the RR to throw up afterward, but sometimes
it works.

Why didn't you just go ahead and say "using the autobrakes"?



"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
> from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like the
> taxi speed limit. What do you do?
>
> a) Hope the Cap'n recognizes the deviation on his own;
> b) Just pretend you didn't notice it;
> c) Get the Cap'n a coffee and gently suggest that you thought
> something's a wee amiss; or
> d) Tell the Cap'n immediately and emphatically... not recommended, I'd
> imagine, considering you'd probably have to work together often after
> that too :)
>
> Presume that there isn't a procedure in the SOP on how to handle
> deviations of the Cap'n (kidding) ;)
>
> At least one very experienced pilot has told me that such a scenario
> isn't as highly improbable as I'd first imagined :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ramapriya
>

"Ramapriya" > wrote
> You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
> from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like the
> taxi speed limit. What do you do?
> Presume that there isn't a procedure in the SOP on how to handle
> deviations of the Cap'n (kidding) ;)

Ramapriya.... probably the wrong newsgroup since very few of the readers
of this group have trained as, or served as a second-in-command in an
aircarrier's "cockpit resource management" (CRM) program.

When I first joined PanAm in 1967, one did not dare correct one of the
old WWII Clipper "gods". Actually, the flight engineer might get away with
it better than the copilot because he belonged to a different union.
Because of this cockpit atmosphere, we crashed 13 of our 130 B-707s.
Then, after an analysis, the FAA demanded a week-long CRM course for all
flightcrew members and revisions to the operating manuals to require that
ANY deviation from SOP be called to the attention of the pilot flying.
With this now being taught in the simulator sessions, the "captains" began
to accept it as normal procedure during line flying. Of course, by this
time, most of the "gods" were retireing and the upgrading copilots who had
suffered for years without CRM turned out to be much more understanding
and accepting pilots-in-command.
>
> At least one very experienced pilot has told me that such a scenario
> isn't as highly improbable as I'd first imagined :)

Read some of the following incidents pertaining to CRM issues.

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report_sets/crm.pdf

Bob Moore

JohnH wrote:
> Ramapriya wrote:
> > You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
> > from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like
> > the taxi speed limit. What do you do?
>
> "Hey Bud, check the speed."


I intended to mean something less trivial than the taxi speed limit. My
non-native english blues to the fore again :(

Ramapriya

Ramapriya wrote:
> JohnH wrote:
>>Ramapriya wrote:
>>
>>>You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
>>>from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like
>>>the taxi speed limit. What do you do?
>>
>>"Hey Bud, check the speed."
>
> I intended to mean something less trivial than the taxi speed limit.

John is simply providing an example of how he would handle it. Another way to
put it would be that the co-pilot should diplomatically point out the situation
to the captain. That is also what I would do.

George Patterson
Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong to
your slightly older self.

""It sure is tough to taxi downhill and with a tailwind without using the
brakes..""

BT

"Ramapriya" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
> from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like the
> taxi speed limit. What do you do?
>
> a) Hope the Cap'n recognizes the deviation on his own;
> b) Just pretend you didn't notice it;
> c) Get the Cap'n a coffee and gently suggest that you thought
> something's a wee amiss; or
> d) Tell the Cap'n immediately and emphatically... not recommended, I'd
> imagine, considering you'd probably have to work together often after
> that too :)
>
> Presume that there isn't a procedure in the SOP on how to handle
> deviations of the Cap'n (kidding) ;)
>
> At least one very experienced pilot has told me that such a scenario
> isn't as highly improbable as I'd first imagined :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ramapriya
>

Whatever you say, if you are in the cockpit of a commercial airliner, it
might be a good idea to remember that what you say may well end up being
broadcast around the world.

Think "Cockpit Voice Recorder"...


"George Patterson" > wrote in message
news:LQhof.1365$Jr1.676@trnddc01...
> Ramapriya wrote:
> > JohnH wrote:
> >>Ramapriya wrote:
> >>
> >>>You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
> >>>from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like
> >>>the taxi speed limit. What do you do?
> >>
> >>"Hey Bud, check the speed."
> >
> > I intended to mean something less trivial than the taxi speed limit.
>
> John is simply providing an example of how he would handle it. Another way
to
> put it would be that the co-pilot should diplomatically point out the
situation
> to the captain. That is also what I would do.
>
> George Patterson
> Coffee is only a way of stealing time that should by rights belong
to
> your slightly older self.

The airlines spent millions on CRM trainning specifically to answer
that question. I would be surprised if any U.S. flag carrier didn't
have a standard procedure for what a First Officer should do in this
situation.

-Robert

I recall a situation in which a very chatty captain made it difficult
for the FO to write down his taxi clearance. The FO got on the radio
and asked ATC to repeat the instruction because the captain had
"dropped his pencil".

-Robert

Most of the US airlines are now emphasizing CRM - Crew Resource Management
in which any crew member has an obligation to point out discrepancies,
etc.

Or am I daydreaming...?

>"Ramapriya" wrote in message
> You're the First Officer. You notice the Cap'n deviating on something
> from the airline's SOP, and it's more important than something like the
> taxi speed limit. What do you do?

> d) Tell the Cap'n immediately and emphatically... not recommended, I'd
> imagine, considering you'd probably have to work together often after
> that too :)

> Presume that there isn't a procedure in the SOP on how to handle
> deviations of the Cap'n (kidding) ;)

The First Officer is duty bound to loudly and emphatically attempt to
correct any unsafe condition that might affect the passengers' safety. If
the situation is an SOP thing without affecting safety, be diplomatic. If it
affects safety, you are obligated to do something. Just be sure you have the
experience to know the difference when you get called to do the carpet dance
in the chief pilot's office. If you are right, you move up one seniority
number.

I was the worst first officer in the company because I wasn't afraid to tell
a captain to shove something up his bum. I got away with it because I have
the experience to know when to speak up.

D. (expert carpet dancer)

Capt.Doug wrote:

> I got away with it because I have
> the experience to know when to speak up.

Does "speaking up" include turning to the captain and stating "I don't want
to die"? That's what I was thinking about saying when I was right seat
with a (now-ex) friend that was doing something of questionable wisdom.

- Andrew

This works: "Hey, captain, are you testing me? I see you're . . . ."

>"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
> Does "speaking up" include turning to the captain and stating "I don't
want
> to die"? That's what I was thinking about saying when I was right seat
> with a (now-ex) friend that was doing something of questionable wisdom.

That should work if expressed with the proper mannerisms.

At airlines with a pilot union, there is an alternative for the meek. One
can go to the professional standards commitee with one's concerns. The
commitee will handle it anonymously on both sides.

D.

"V1, ROTATE"

Capt.Doug wrote:

>>"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
>>Does "speaking up" include turning to the captain and stating "I don't
>
> want
>
>>to die"? That's what I was thinking about saying when I was right seat
>>with a (now-ex) friend that was doing something of questionable wisdom.
>
>
> That should work if expressed with the proper mannerisms.
>
> At airlines with a pilot union, there is an alternative for the meek. One
> can go to the professional standards commitee with one's concerns. The
> commitee will handle it anonymously on both sides.

Doesn't sound very helpful for something that is happening and real time
and might kill you.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:

>> At airlines with a pilot union, there is an alternative for the meek. One
>> can go to the professional standards commitee with one's concerns. The
>> commitee will handle it anonymously on both sides.
>
> Doesn't sound very helpful for something that is happening and real time
> and might kill you.

How about "Say, Captain, do you think we could have a professional standards
committee meeting for a moment?"

Hmm. "I don't want to die" is shorter.

- Andrew

>"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
> How about "Say, Captain, do you think we could have a professional
standards
> committee meeting for a moment?"

Again, that might work, with the proper mannerisms.

Then again, 2 people on the controls at the same time may exacerbate the
problem.

D.