Hope for the future [Archive]

Jay Honeck

November 17th 06, 08:49 PM

> > This is the first I've heard of this increase in pilot training, and I
> > hope it's the start of a trend. Anyone got a source for student stats?
>
> It seems like every time I've walk into an FBO in the last twenty years,
> they've been talking about how this was the PERFECT time to start toward a
> career in flying. Airlines would be -begging- for pilots right around the
> time I'd be getting that kind of flying time.
>
> Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day, I guess, but maybe the flight
> schools found some hotshot new advertising agency or something.

Well, I'd agree, but P & P says that Diamond has sold 350+ DA40
trainers -- a great success story -- and is partially explaining this
success by referring to the "increase in student pilot training".

Clearly Diamond and P&P think that there are more students now, but
it's the first I've heard of it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Stefan

November 17th 06, 10:40 PM

Jay Honeck schrieb:

> Well, I'd agree, but P & P says that Diamond has sold 350+ DA40
> trainers -- a great success story -- and is partially explaining this
> success by referring to the "increase in student pilot training".

I'd rather explain this by the fact that there is *finally* something on
the market to replace the vintage WWII fleet of Pipers and Cessnas.

Stefan

Jay Honeck

November 17th 06, 11:17 PM

> I'd rather explain this by the fact that there is *finally* something on
> the market to replace the vintage WWII fleet of Pipers and Cessnas.

Well, they're not quite *that* old. Most of the US training fleet
Pipers and Cessnas were built between 1960 and 1975. Try calling them
the "vintage Viet Nam fleet"...

Does anyone still subscribe to "Flight Training"? I seem to remember
them publishing the "student starts" each month -- but I have no idea
where they got that info.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

FLAV8R[_1_]

November 18th 06, 01:18 AM

> Does anyone still subscribe to "Flight Training"? I seem to remember
> them publishing the "student starts" each month -- but I have no idea
> where they got that info.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
I couldn't find the stats you were asking about but I did find this very
interesting
list of aviation statistics:
http://aircraft.in/statistics_of_flying.html#General%20Info

David - KGYH

FLAV8R[_1_]

November 18th 06, 01:45 AM

> Does anyone still subscribe to "Flight Training"? I seem to remember
> them publishing the "student starts" each month -- but I have no idea
> where they got that info.
> --
> Jay Honeck

AOPA has pilot stats from 1929 thru 2005 but it is not broken down by
month. It was interesting to note that there has been an average of 80,000
student pilots in the US in the past decade but it was double that amount
in the early 1980's.
The total US pilot stat has not changed much since 1967 averaging 600,000.
We have the same amount of Private pilots today as we had in 1966 (220,000).

David - KGYH

Matt Whiting

November 18th 06, 02:26 AM

FLAV8R wrote:
>>Does anyone still subscribe to "Flight Training"? I seem to remember
>>them publishing the "student starts" each month -- but I have no idea
>>where they got that info.
>>--
>>Jay Honeck
>
>
> AOPA has pilot stats from 1929 thru 2005 but it is not broken down by
> month. It was interesting to note that there has been an average of 80,000
> student pilots in the US in the past decade but it was double that amount
> in the early 1980's.
> The total US pilot stat has not changed much since 1967 averaging 600,000.
> We have the same amount of Private pilots today as we had in 1966 (220,000).

Which means that as a percentage of the population, we only have about
2/3rds as many private pilots now as in 1966. Not a good trend.

Matt

Judah

November 18th 06, 03:11 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:1163767124.193662.166360
@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:

> I recently re-subscribed to "Plane & Pilot", and in this month's
> edition they repeatedly refer to the "strong upswing in student starts"
> that has fueled increased sales of (for example) the Diamond DA-40.
>
> This is the first I've heard of this increase in pilot training, and I
> hope it's the start of a trend. Anyone got a source for student stats?

It might come from AOPA. AOPA's been pushing their "Project Pilot" program
for about 6 months or so now. Certainly they are going to express the
feelings that the project is working, even if it may not be...

Montblack

November 18th 06, 04:13 PM

"tony" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> yes you are right

Tony - Your post triggered M$ Outlook Express 6.0 to prompt:

"To display language characters correctly you need to install the following
language pack: Chinese Simplified"

Huh???

Montbwack

Peter Duniho

November 18th 06, 06:15 PM

"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> Tony - Your post triggered M$ Outlook Express 6.0 to prompt:
>
> "To display language characters correctly you need to install the
> following
> language pack: Chinese Simplified"
>
> Huh???

From his message header:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312"

"gb2312" is a commonly used Chinese language character set.

Personally, I think it's silly to use a foreign-language character set when
posting in English to a newsgroup that is essentially an English language
newsgroup (the only Chinese in Tony's post was the "wrote in message" part
of the quote). But not all users even comprehend that they are doing
so...often the language settings just default based on the user's global
computer settings, and the user doesn't know enough to override the default.

I'm guessing that's the case here. Hopefully, Tony doesn't actually believe
there's a reason to use Chinese characters in his posts, especially since
the content he's actually writing is in English, obviously targeted at
people who read English.

Pete

Greg Farris

November 19th 06, 01:47 PM

In article >,
says...

>>
>> This is the first I've heard of this increase in pilot training, and I
>> hope it's the start of a trend. Anyone got a source for student stats?
>

I don't know about the stats.
I would share your hope for a trend, but I cannot be optimistic. Why?
Many people start flying, and stick to it through the costs and hardships
because of the rewards it is supposed to offer at the end. These rewards have
been substantially eroded over the years though, particularly in recent
(post-911) years.

1) The airline pilot's career will likely never have the shine it once had.
Salaries are down (WAY down, in some cases) job security as well, and the
"glamor" of intercontinental flying is tarnished.

2)Utility for the individual or small business flyer is diminished. In the
50's and early '60's it was easy to find personal aircraft with TAS
comparable to what were then considered to be airliners (DC-3's). This
combined with the proximity of local airports led to a prodigious utility
gain for those who could afford it. Today, unless you are talking bizzjets
and multi-million investments, it is difficult to find many missions where
the private aircraft offers a measurable advantage. (Yes these exist, but
they are now the exception rather than the rule).

3) Saftey concerns have increased. This is a good thing, because safety
conciousness is the driving force behind the improvement we have seen in
accident statistics. At the same time, this increases the hassle and
preparation time, and further decreases perceived utility.

4) Environmental conciousness - another good thing, that probably does not
help the overall image of private aviation.

5) Rules and regulations - not that these have increased that much over the
years in GA, but the amount of rule conciousness and responsibility we have
to digest in our daily lives has. Just driving your car to work today is an
exercise in liability protection - adding to this a "leisure" activity that
brings a whole new level of rules and regulations may not be a picture of
release and serenity to young people, already stressed half to death about
the responsibility they take on every time they climb out of bed in the
morning.

I do agree with those who say the new crop of aircraft, and the modernization
of the instrument panel represent big gains in attractiveness for potential
starters today, but I would be cautious about beliving in much of an upswing
in PPL starts.

GF

Jay Honeck

November 19th 06, 02:02 PM

> 1) The airline pilot's career will likely never have the shine it once had.
> Salaries are down (WAY down, in some cases) job security as well, and the
> "glamor" of intercontinental flying is tarnished.

Yeah, I wonder what's going to happen when you project this trend out
20 years. With so few military pilots in the pipeline, and now fewer
privately trained pilots interested in pursuing flying as a career, the
stars seem aligned to create a huge pilot shortage in the year 2027 or
so... This should drive salaries back up, of course.

The glamor of international travel is all but gone. Mary and I have
talked extensively about flying to Europe, but each time we consider
the agony of flying across the Atlantic with the kids in a cattle car
we decide to fly our own plane somewhere. Between the discomfort of
commercial flying, and the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of
many Europeans, it's just easier to spend our tourist dollar in the
Western hemisphere. God knows there are plenty of places we haven't
yet seen on our side of the pond that are reachable in Atlas.

> 2)Utility for the individual or small business flyer is diminished. In the
> 50's and early '60's it was easy to find personal aircraft with TAS
> comparable to what were then considered to be airliners (DC-3's). This
> combined with the proximity of local airports led to a prodigious utility
> gain for those who could afford it.

So true. I know that people in the 1950s were aware of what the
then-new interstate highway system was going to do to rail travel --
but I don't think anyone much considered what they would to to
aviation. Back when it took 8 hours to drive to Chicago from here,
flying your company's Twin Beech made a lot of sense. Now, it's a 4.5
hour drive, which most businessmen will do in a day, especially when it
saves hundreds of dollars to do so.

And, of course, everyone knows what happened to commuter air service.
With the advent of freeways, (and, more importantly, the loss of
airmail contracts) commuter air lines went the way of the dinosaur.
Let's hope the VLJs can bring it back!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Larry Dighera

November 19th 06, 02:15 PM

On 19 Nov 2006 06:02:18 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
in . com>:

>The glamor of international travel is all but gone. Mary and I have
>talked extensively about flying to Europe, but each time we consider
>the agony of flying across the Atlantic with the kids in a cattle car
>we decide to fly our own plane somewhere. Between the discomfort of
>commercial flying, and the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of
>many Europeans, it's just easier to spend our tourist dollar in the
>Western hemisphere. God knows there are plenty of places we haven't
>yet seen on our side of the pond that are reachable in Atlas.

While I share much of your criticism of airline travel, I have found
the lasting benefits of international travel significantly exceed the
relatively short periods of discomfort.

Jose[_1_]

November 19th 06, 03:11 PM

> These rewards have been substantially eroded
> over the years though, particularly in recent
> (post-911) years.

Well, yes, but the hassle of flying commercially has increased far more
than the hassle of flying onesself (except in the DC area). My wife is
far more inclined even on longer trips now to propose taking the little
airplane rather than the aluminum tube.

While safety concerns have increased, ways to deal with them have too.
GPS and Nexrad are examples of this.

I don't think people are "stressed to death about the responsibility
they take on every time they climb out of bed". CYA is more built into
people's MO nowadays, but not in a stressful way (except perhaps as the
recipient).

An activity has to be fun and rewarding for it to be pursued. It still is.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Greg Farris

November 19th 06, 03:40 PM

In article >,
says...
>
>
>> These rewards have been substantially eroded
>> over the years though, particularly in recent
>> (post-911) years.
>
>Well, yes, but the hassle of flying commercially has increased far more
>than the hassle of flying onesself (except in the DC area). My wife is
>far more inclined even on longer trips now to propose taking the little
>airplane rather than the aluminum tube.
>

I do agree with this somewhat.
Certainly, the fact tht you have to just about strip naked to get on a plane
today, and you have to wait for hours as everyone else does the same is going
to be a big advantage for business aviation. (Not to mention the fact that
the threat of truly being blown out of the sky, while still remote, has
become more realistic - which may tip the scales for some CEO's, or their
risk-management departments).

But this still doesn't change the fact that it's really hard to eek any
demonstrable utility out of private aviation today. If your calculation
includes any cost-to-benefit consideration at all then you're right out the
window. If cost is of little concern, or pleasure is great enough to justify
it, then you still have to weigh-in the time and hassle to and from the
airports - and in many cases in the US it would simply be more convenient,
as Jay says, to drive it.

In Europe, the fast trains, combined with good roads, plus now the fact that
you can put your car on the train, is rapidly making even commercial aviation
obsolescent, let alone private flying, which is relegated pretty much to a
leisure activity.

GF

Thomas Borchert

November 19th 06, 04:35 PM

Jay,

> The glamor of international travel is all but gone.

Oh, please! What glamor? Flying economy class hasn't changed a bit in
the last 30 years except for one thing: It has become enormously
cheaper.

> Mary and I have
> talked extensively about flying to Europe, but each time we consider
> the agony of flying across the Atlantic with the kids in a cattle car
> we decide to fly our own plane somewhere.

Just like back in the 50s: If you want glamor, you'll have to pay for
it. In First Class, international travel is plenty glamorous. And the
price of the ticket is comparable to any airline ticket in the 50s.

> Between the discomfort of
> commercial flying, and the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of
> many Europeans,

And where exactly did you get that idea? What media in the US, for
example, would even report on the European attitude, no matter if it is
positive or negative? Fox "News"?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Scott Post

November 19th 06, 05:23 PM

In article . com>,
Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>The glamor of international travel is all but gone. Mary and I have
>talked extensively about flying to Europe, but each time we consider
>the agony of flying across the Atlantic with the kids in a cattle car
>we decide to fly our own plane somewhere. Between the discomfort of
>commercial flying, and the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of
>many Europeans,

I can't argue with the agony of long flights in cramped quarters with
children, but have to disagree with the "less-than-welcoming attitude".
I've travelled in Eastern and Western Europe (as well as Africa and
Asia) and have rarely encountered anything but great hospitality. On
average, I'd rate the US near the bottom of the hospitality scale.
Smile, be polite, and roll with the punches and you and your hosts will
get along fine. The US offers great geographical variety, but it's more
of a treat to experience foods, languages, cultures, and goods well
outside what you're used to.

You haven't lived until you've tried to buy underwear at a South Korean
flea market on a Sunday night because the airline lost your luggage.
It's a hoot negotiating without the benefit of a common language with
a smiling guy who's eager to please and having as much fun with the
situation as you are. All this with background smells that let you know
your next meal is going to be a real adventure. :-)

--
Scott Post

Judah

November 19th 06, 05:36 PM

Greg Farris > wrote in
:

> Certainly, the fact tht you have to just about strip naked to get on a
> plane today, and you have to wait for hours as everyone else does the

If you know the rules, the process of going through security at the
airlines is not that different than it was 10 years ago. You take your
computer and put it in a tray. You take your ziploc of shaving cream and
toothpaste samples and put it in a tray, with your phone and your wallet
and your shoes, and walk through the metal detector. It's really not all
that complicated. And taking off your shoes isn't quite stripping naked.

The problem is there are still way too many people who either don't know
the rules, or don't care, causing the lines to be unusually long and
increasing the time required to get to the airport to ensure you'll get
through in time. Just the other day, my associate related to me this
experience from earlier in the week as he went through security at EWR:

Walking down the lanes to the security counter, they stop everyone and
remind them to put their liquids in ziplocks, which they offer.

A woman about 4 ahead of him put her bag on the belt. "Is this your bag?"
Sure enough the TSA officer pulls out a 20oz bottle of shampoo and another
of conditioner. As the line comes to a standing halt, he explains to the
woman that she can't bring these on the plane. Several minutes pass by as
she objects, and he continues to tell her she can either forfeit them or go
and check them. Finally, she decides to go and check them.

The next woman in the line has a very similar conversation with the
security officer about her makeup... And similarly, the 3rd woman in the
line.

By the time the fourth woman in the line gets there and starts her , he
wants to yell at her and ask her if she was sleeping for the last 10
minutes while the 3 woman in front of her just went through the same thing.

By contrast, I flew on a USAir Shuttle from LGA. The USAir Shuttle has a
separate security line that rarely has long lines. The people who take the
USAir Shuttle are typically flying back and forth on a regular basis, and
so they know the rules and know the procedures.

They have their laptops in their hands before they get to the tray tables,
and they pop their stuff into the trays and make their way through. I was
through security and at my gate in about 5 minutes like "the good ole
days".

> But this still doesn't change the fact that it's really hard to eek any
> demonstrable utility out of private aviation today. If your calculation
> includes any cost-to-benefit consideration at all then you're right out
> the window. If cost is of little concern, or pleasure is great enough to
> justify it, then you still have to weigh-in the time and hassle to and
> from the airports - and in many cases in the US it would simply be
> more convenient, as Jay says, to drive it.

It depends on how you value your time, and what you mean by private
aviation. If you are talking about spending thousands of dollars to fly on
a chartered jet, you're probably right. But quite frankly, I frequently
save both time and money as compared with the airlines when I fly in a
Bonanza (or even an Arrow) within about 500 miles from my home airport.
This is especially true when compared to commercial flights that include
multiple legs, especially when the hub is a big one that always encounters
delays - like ORD or IAD. I can't tell you how many times I missed a
connection and it cost me more hours than I care to think about. In fact,
on my return trip on Friday, I was delayed 3 hours because my connection
was through ORD was delayed. Weather was not an issue, the delay was caused
by "Air Traffic Control".

I've never had a 3 hour delay by ATC in the Bonanza....

Jose[_1_]

November 19th 06, 06:56 PM

> If you know the rules, the process of going through security at the
> airlines is not that different than it was 10 years ago. You take your
> computer and put it in a tray. You take your ziploc of shaving cream and
> toothpaste samples and put it in a tray, with your phone and your wallet
> and your shoes, and walk through the metal detector. It's really not all
> that complicated. And taking off your shoes isn't quite stripping naked.

The problem is not the difficulty of the procedure, it is the
implications. Your laptop (at least for an international flight) is
subject to siezure and search. Your luggage is gone through by TSA (you
just have to "trust them"). I have had things damaged and my personal
papers gone through. You can't take a bottle of Sonoma wine home in
carry on any more. You are only permitted three ounces of liquids,
which is not enough to drink. (Just trust the airlines to have water
for you if the flight gets delayed. Trust the flight attendants to not
be testy too.)

Our children are getting used to being searched like this, and will grow
up thinking it's normal. (It's not just airlines. Stores, schools, and
websites do the same thing.)

But it's ok. Ziplog bags protect us from terrorists. Just obey.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

john smith

November 19th 06, 07:04 PM

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> The glamor of international travel is all but gone. Mary and I have
> talked extensively about flying to Europe, but each time we consider
> the agony of flying across the Atlantic with the kids in a cattle car
> we decide to fly our own plane somewhere. Between the discomfort of
> commercial flying, and the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of
> many Europeans, it's just easier to spend our tourist dollar in the
> Western hemisphere. God knows there are plenty of places we haven't
> yet seen on our side of the pond that are reachable in Atlas.

An instrument rating and a visit from NW_Pilot can help you solve that
problem. You keep telling us how great ATLAS is, a trip across the pond
would really prove that. :-))

john smith

November 19th 06, 08:12 PM

In article >,
Jose > wrote:

> Your laptop (at least for an international flight) is
> subject to siezure and search.

Which is why one should use TrueCrypt.

Greg Farris

November 19th 06, 09:39 PM

In article >,
says...
>
>
>Jay,
>
>> The glamor of international travel is all but gone.
>
>Oh, please! What glamor? Flying economy class hasn't changed a bit in
>the last 30 years except for one thing: It has become enormously
>cheaper.

I was referring to "glamor" mostly as regards pilots. I'll bet in 1975,
most Americans and Europeans would list "Airline Pilot" within the top ten
of their list of "glamor professions". I'll bet fewer than one in ten
would today - just a guess though.

Concerning passengers - when I was in High School, in the '70's, I was
one of the few (<10%) who had actually flown on a plane! Today I doubt you
will find many 15 year-old Americans or Europeans who have not. There is
certainly something less "exclusive" about it.

>> Between the discomfort of
>> commercial flying, and the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of
>> many Europeans,
>
>And where exactly did you get that idea?

The truth is a good starting point!
With so many people choosing France as a desired destination, it is a
shame that CDG airport is completely out-classed by the modern, welcoming
airports in China, Indonesia, Singapore and Dubai. Arriving in France is a
very "nerves of steel" experience.

GF

>
>--
>Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
>

Martin Hotze

November 19th 06, 09:53 PM

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:12:18 GMT, john smith wrote:

>> Your laptop (at least for an international flight) is
>> subject to siezure and search.
>
>Which is why one should use TrueCrypt.

hell no. only have the OS on the laptop and have the data in a secure place
in Europe (encrypted, of course). I'll never travel again to the US
bringing any sensitive data with me (_IF_ I'll ever go there again and
spend some AMUs just for the fun of it; there are not so hostile [in terms
of security, censorship, freedom and _privacy_] places also taking this
money nd offering similar features). I'd like to see any stats if there was
an impact on the US-tourism industry due to the changes during the last
couple of years.

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

Morgans[_2_]

November 19th 06, 11:07 PM

>> Between the discomfort of
>> commercial flying, and the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of
>> many Europeans,
>
> And where exactly did you get that idea? What media in the US, for
> example, would even report on the European attitude, no matter if it is
> positive or negative? Fox "News"?

Oh, how about the time, while visiting the brother (German) of a friend in
Berlin, it was time to eat, so we stopped in at a (common to them) restaurant.
The brother and friend were a few minutes behind, so we went in, got a table,
and were given menus to look at. The friend and the brother arrived, sat down,
then I noticed her (the friend's) face getting red, then real red, then the
waiter came by. She asked (in German) "what were these? Where are the real
menus?" Then the waiter's face started getting red. He mumbled something in
German, then shuffled off. Our friend said, "We are leaving. Let's go. Now!"

We got outside, and asked what was wrong; why had we left. She was almost in
tears, and said that she was so mad and embarrassed, because this waiter had
seen a chance to stiff a bunch of Americans, and had given us the menus (that
they obviously had prepared for situations where tourists come in) that had all
of the prices about double from the normal prices.

Sounds unwelcoming to me.

I could go on with other examples, but I won't.
--
Jim in NC

Jay Honeck

November 19th 06, 11:59 PM

> I'd like to see any stats if there was
> an impact on the US-tourism industry due to the changes during the last
> couple of years.

I subscribe to a number of lodging industry magazines, naturally, and
if there's been any impact it's not been measurable. In fact, the
lodging industry as a whole has been experiencing record and continuous
growth since 2002, after taking a big hit right after 9/11.

Now, of course, there's more to tourism than simply lodging, but it's a
good bellwether.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Newps

November 20th 06, 12:42 AM

Martin Hotze wrote:

(_IF_ I'll ever go there again and
> spend some AMUs just for the fun of it; there are not so hostile [in terms
> of security, censorship, freedom and _privacy_]

You're such an idiot, you should learn what you're talking about. I
just read that a video game was banned in over there, presumably for
whatever content was in it the freedom loving people didn't like. That
would not ever happen here. Not ever. We have no banned ideas here.
You have so much less freedom where you live it's laughable yet all you
do is whine about everybody else.

Newps

November 20th 06, 12:43 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:

>>I'd like to see any stats if there was
>>an impact on the US-tourism industry due to the changes during the last
>>couple of years.
>
>
> I subscribe to a number of lodging industry magazines, naturally, and
> if there's been any impact it's not been measurable. In fact, the
> lodging industry as a whole has been experiencing record and continuous
> growth since 2002, after taking a big hit right after 9/11.
>
> Now, of course, there's more to tourism than simply lodging, but it's a
> good bellwether.

Many more people are flying now than ever before. Hell, United just
reported a profit.

Larry Dighera

November 20th 06, 03:33 AM

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 17:35:35 +0100, Thomas Borchert
> wrote in
>:

>
>> Between the discomfort of
>> commercial flying, and the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of
>> many Europeans,
>
>And where exactly did you get that idea? What media in the US, for
>example, would even report on the European attitude, no matter if it is
>positive or negative? Fox "News"?

My experience with western Europeans has been, that generally folks
have the same basic interests and concerns as, and mostly act with the
same or better dignity and refinement as urban Americans. Of course
there are individuals who harbor a little larceny or chicanery, or are
grumpy about the indentation of tourists in their once homogenous
environs, but the vast majority are thoughtful, helpful, and
delightfully warm, and interesting.

Larry Dighera

November 20th 06, 04:44 AM

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 20:12:18 GMT, john smith > wrote in
>:

>TrueCrypt

http://www.truecrypt.org/
Encryption algorithms: AES-256, Blowfish (448-bit key), CAST5,
Serpent, Triple DES, and Twofish. Mode of operation: LRW (CBC
supported as legacy).

Impressive.

And the price is right. :-)

Larry Dighera

November 20th 06, 04:50 AM

On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:07:34 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote in >:

>
>Sounds unwelcoming to me.

Oh come on. The waiter was courteous and welcomed you, I'll bet. :-(

Greg Farris

November 20th 06, 05:33 AM

In article . com>,
says...
>
>
>> I'd like to see any stats if there was
>> an impact on the US-tourism industry due to the changes during the last
>> couple of years.
>
From what I've understood, the tourism markets on both sides have proven
quite resilient in the face of new threats and restrictions. Visits to the
US are not substantially off despite the fact that many people now require
Visas who didn't previously. And France remains the world's first tourist
destination (with London gaining fast) despite the whole flap over Iraq.
Apparently the largest tourist draw in France has changed though - today
more people visit Euro Disney than visit the Eiffel Tower, which indicats
significant numbers of people make the trip all the way to the outskirts of
Paris, but never mak a detour away from Disneyland to visit the city of
Paris!

Thomas Borchert

November 20th 06, 08:22 AM

Greg,

> With so many people choosing France as a desired destination, it is a
> shame that CDG airport is completely out-classed by the modern, welcoming
> airports in China, Indonesia, Singapore and Dubai.
>

Now we're deducing the welcoming attitude of people from architecture? Have
you been to JFK?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Stefan

November 20th 06, 09:00 AM

Morgans schrieb:

> this waiter had seen a chance to stiff a bunch of Americans, and had
> given us the menus (that they obviously had prepared for situations
> where tourists come in) that had all of the prices about double from the
> normal prices.

If this little intermezzo impresses you, then you haven't travelled very
far in the world on your own. The only thing that surprizes me in that
story is that it has happened in Germany.

Stefan

Greg Farris

November 20th 06, 07:37 PM

In article >,
says...
>
>
>Greg,
>
>> With so many people choosing France as a desired destination, it is a
>> shame that CDG airport is completely out-classed by the modern, welcoming
>> airports in China, Indonesia, Singapore and Dubai.
>>
>
>Now we're deducing the welcoming attitude of people from architecture?

Actually, I think the architecture is one of the things they are doing right
at Paris' CDG airport. I am a fan of Paul Andreu, and I think the control
tower at CDG2 and the newest terminals (2F and E) are very beautiful,
notwithstanding their errr structural difficulties! ;-)

I was referring to the entire experience - like a theme park ride "Roissy
Charles de Gaulle - The Experience!!" You know, the fact that the planes
unload by bus, because the handling companies are on strike, the interminable
wait to get you baggage, because they are on strike as well, the smashed,
ransacked and missing baggage after all that waiting, then the ticket
dispensing machines in the train station - that don't accept cash, and only
accept credit cards issued in France (very creative, for an international
arrivals hall). No problem though, you can take your chances with the long
lines at the ticket window - but pity on your soul if you don't have EXACT
change - the girl at the window will make you regret the day you were born.
The train ride through the car-burning capital of the world is - well,
interesting, but the arrival at the North train station will see you separated
from your wallet, unless you are David Blaine or Copperfield and able to
out-wit the army of pickpockets. Ready for a Parisian taxi? No, NO, NO - don't
get me started!!!

Have
>you been to JFK?

Haven't been there in almost a week.
Has it changed?

GF

Morgans[_2_]

November 20th 06, 11:13 PM

>> this waiter had seen a chance to stiff a bunch of Americans, and had given us
>> the menus (that they obviously had prepared for situations where tourists
>> come in) that had all of the prices about double from the normal prices.
>
> If this little intermezzo impresses you, then you haven't travelled very far
> in the world on your own. The only thing that surprizes me in that story is
> that it has happened in Germany.

Give me the name of just one restaurant in the US that has a foreigner menu with
double pricing. Just one.
--
Jim in NC

Greg Farris

November 21st 06, 05:42 AM

In article >, says...
>
>

>
>Give me the name of just one restaurant in the US that has a foreigner menu
with
>double pricing. Just one.

I can give you the names of several Times Square and 5th ave "camera" stores
that thrive on shameless "bait and switch" scams aimed at foreign tourists.

GF

Grumman-581[_1_]

November 21st 06, 05:58 AM

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:13:26 -0500, "Morgans"
> wrote:
> Give me the name of just one restaurant in the US that has a
> foreigner menu with double pricing. Just one.

I have encountered various Chinese restaurants that have a different
menu for those who speak / read Chinese and the prices on those are
discounted...

Stefan

November 21st 06, 09:49 AM

Jay Honeck schrieb:

> the famously less-than-welcoming attitude of many Europeans

Today released:

Travelers rate America’s entry process as the “world’s worst” by greater
than a 2:1 margin over the next-worst destination area.
The U.S. ranks with Africa and the Middle East when it comes to
traveler-friendly paperwork and officials.
54 percent of international travelers say that immigration officials are
rude.
Travelers to the U.S. are more afraid of U.S. government officials than
the threat of terrorism or crime.
Two-thirds of travelers surveyed fear they will be detained at the
border because of a simple mistake or misstatement.

Source:

The Discover America Partnership/RT Strategies study of international
travelers was conducted between October 25th and November 9th, 2006.
2,011 non-U.S. resident international travelers were surveyed,
representing 15+ countries worldwide. Half of those travelers had
visited the U.S. since September 11, 2001; the other half had not
visited the U.S. since September 11, 2001.

http://www.poweroftravel.org/release-11-20-06.aspx

So much about the "famously less-than-welcoming attitude"

Stefan

Jay Honeck

November 21st 06, 12:36 PM

> Travelers rate America's entry process as the "world's worst" by greater
> than a 2:1 margin over the next-worst destination area.

Well, duh. After a country has been successfully attacked by foreign
nationals using airliners as weapons, did you expect to be welcomed
with open arms at the airport, without paperwork or security?

It's actually rather unusual that foreign tourists are being allowed in
the country at all. Throughout US history, tourism has been shut down
during war time. (Necessary aviation content: So has general
aviation, by the way.)

But all that's beside the point. In a country where most of our states
are larger than France -- and there are 50 of them -- there is more to
see and do here than any one person can accomplish in a lifetime.

But I'm gonna try!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Judah

November 21st 06, 01:25 PM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in news:1164112603.897240.198500
@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> But all that's beside the point. In a country where most of our states
> are larger than France -- and there are 50 of them -- there is more to
> see and do here than any one person can accomplish in a lifetime.

It shouldn't take a lifetime...
Not all 50 states have anything of any real interest to see or do, though.

Of course, I used to think Iowa fell into that category. But then I heard
about this Aviation themed Hotel that I will have to check out before I die.

Stefan

November 21st 06, 02:43 PM

Jay Honeck schrieb:

> Well, duh. After a country has been successfully attacked by foreign
> nationals using airliners as weapons, did you expect to be welcomed

You'd be surprized to learn that some other countries have been attacked
in the past, too, and have managed to remain friendly nevertheless. I
find it interesting that you speak of the "famously less-than-welcoming
attitude of many Europeans" but in turn think such an attitude is a
pretty normal thing when practiced by the USA. Correction, I don't find
this interesting, I rather find it extremely boring.

> But all that's beside the point. In a country where most of our states
> are larger than France -- and there are 50 of them -- there is more to
> see and do here than any one person can accomplish in a lifetime.

Depends on how much you want to broaden your mind. But then, I suspect
that you're happier when you're not forced to broaden it too much.

Stefan

Jay Honeck

November 21st 06, 02:50 PM

> It shouldn't take a lifetime...
> Not all 50 states have anything of any real interest to see or do, though.
>
> Of course, I used to think Iowa fell into that category. But then I heard
> about this Aviation themed Hotel that I will have to check out before I die.

Chuckle. I used to think that way, too. As I've grown older, and my
travels have expanded, I've found that each state is a country in
itself, offering different treasures -- and they are all wonderful, and
more than worth the effort to see and explore.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Larry Dighera

November 21st 06, 05:50 PM

On 21 Nov 2006 04:36:43 -0800, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
in . com>:

>It's actually rather unusual that foreign tourists are being allowed in
>the country at all.

The US government's ineffectual border enforcement performance admits,
not only foreign tourists, but undocumented resident immigrants by the
tens of thousands annually. Our government is incapable of denying
people the ability to enter our country during the time of war or any
other time.

The whole TSA is a bad joke created by an arrogant former drug and
alcohol abusing, ignorant, pipit for those who are raiding our nations
wealth through corporate subsidies and non-competitive contracts with
Halliburton, The Carlisle Group, Bechtel, ..., at the expense of the
education, environment, and health care.

I am deeply ashamed of my country's choice of leadership, military
actions, both covert and overt, both past (post WW-II) and present,
and have lost faith in my fellow Americans' ability to vote wisely,
make rational decisions based on objective criteria instead of
emotional hysteria, and in our nation's corrupt Congressional
leadership. If radical reform isn't instituted soon, the entire
government is doomed to failure and collapse.

Corporations are not persons, and do not have the right to influence
governmental policies that negatively affect the people of this
nation. Ours is a government by, and for the people, not for the tax
evading, parasitic, exploitive, immoral, and often criminal large
corporations.

The emotional role religion played in Congress' action as a result of
the Terri Schivo matter underscores organized religion's inappropriate
influence on logic, rational judgment, and common sense. It is the
shamans who have for decades victimized the children of those with
whom they are entrusted to advise on moral and ethical matters. It is
the hypocrisy of the religious right who deny's homosexual couples the
right to a legal union, so that their adopted children will have the
benefits of a legitimate family, all the while engaging in same-sex
prostitution and drug trafficking, that reveal the irrationality of
the people of this nation in their continued support of irrational
belief.

If rational, logical, thoughtful leadership is not restored to our
nation soon, we are destined to see a lot more than general aviation
destroyed.

</rant>

A nation can survive its fools, and even the
ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from
within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable,
for he is known and carries his banner openly.
But the traitor moves amongst those within
the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through
all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government
itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he
speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and
he wears their face and their arguments, he
appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the
hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation,
he works secretly and unknown in the night
to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects
the body politic so that it can no longer resist.
A murderer is less to fear. -- Marcus Tullius Cicero

Jon Woellhaf

November 21st 06, 06:09 PM

Jay Honeck wrote
> ... In a country where most of our states are larger than France ...

It looks to me that only alaska and Texas are larger then France.

Jose[_1_]

November 21st 06, 06:33 PM

> The US government's ineffectual border enforcement performance admits,
> not only foreign tourists, but undocumented resident immigrants by the
> tens of thousands annually.

The 911 terrorists were =documented=. They had visas. We need to keep
the =documented= people out. Undocumented people have never crashed
jetliners into buildings.

> The emotional role religion played in Congress' action...

.... merely reflects the huge role such superstition plays in the lives
of Americans.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Honeck

November 21st 06, 06:47 PM

> You'd be surprized to learn that some other countries have been attacked
> in the past, too, and have managed to remain friendly nevertheless. I
> find it interesting that you speak of the "famously less-than-welcoming
> attitude of many Europeans" but in turn think such an attitude is a
> pretty normal thing when practiced by the USA.

You're confusing procedures with attitudes. Procedurally, it can be
annoying going through airport security -- but I've never found US
airport personnel to be anything but respectful and neutral, if not
downright pleasant.

This is far from the reputation of most European functionaries, rightly
or wrongly. I've not had the privilege of experiencing it myself, but
tales of rude treatment by everyone from taxi drivers to police
authorities abound amongst my peers who have traveled abroad.

In fairness, tales of good treatment and wonderful acts of kindness
abound, too -- but almost every person I talk to about traveling to
Europe tells at least one story about being treated poorly by someone.

That just doesn't happen in America, in my experience, and I've spent
40+ years exploring this great land of ours.

> > But all that's beside the point. In a country where most of our states
> > are larger than France -- and there are 50 of them -- there is more to
> > see and do here than any one person can accomplish in a lifetime.
>
> Depends on how much you want to broaden your mind. But then, I suspect
> that you're happier when you're not forced to broaden it too much.

And that response is the perfect example of why many Americans look
down their noses at Europeans. You're crass, rude, and almost
universally whiny.

Perhaps that explains why your ancestors stayed behind, while the cream
of the crop was coming to America? <ducking!>

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jose[_1_]

November 21st 06, 07:01 PM

> but almost every person I talk to about traveling to
> Europe tells at least one story about being treated poorly by someone.
>
>
> That just doesn't happen in America, in my experience

I'm laughing so hard I can't type any more.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jay Honeck

November 21st 06, 07:28 PM

> > Europe tells at least one story about being treated poorly by someone.
> >
> > That just doesn't happen in America, in my experience
>
> I'm laughing so hard I can't type any more.

Why? For 40 years I've stayed in hundreds of hotels, in dozens of US
cities, in dozens of states, rented hundreds of rental cars, dealt with
valet parking lot attendants, petty governmental officials, and the
average Joe on the street -- and can't remember being treated rudely or
even inattentively by more than a handfull of people.

Now, perhaps, my memory is failing -- but I don't think so. I tend to
remember bad treatment for a very long time.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Thomas Borchert

November 21st 06, 07:40 PM

Jay,

> while the cream
> of the crop was coming to America?
>

You must be joking. Your country was founded in large part by religious
extremists and convicts, and it started it's history with a horrific
(and largely religously justified) genocide.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jose[_1_]

November 21st 06, 08:41 PM

>>> Europe tells at least one story about being treated poorly by someone.
>>> That just doesn't happen in America, in my experience
>> I'm laughing so hard I can't type any more.
> Why?

You should enter politics.

For one thing you just recently posted about some dork who got upset
because you made a comment about filling up a gas tank. He threw you
out of an FBO, if memory serves me. Either you were rude, or he was,
and this was in America.

"This just doesn't happen in America."

Yes, it does. "Oh, but that's just one time...."

"...Europe tells at least one story..."

One story told by one futz is enough to condemn all of Europe, but
somehow one story told by the one in the mirror doesn't reflect at all
on America? Hmmph.

I've been treated nicely and rudely, here, and abroad. I've been
embarrased to be an American, but I've never been embarrased to be in a
foreign country.

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Bob Noel

November 21st 06, 10:15 PM

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> but I've never found US
> airport personnel to be anything but respectful and neutral, if not
> downright pleasant.

Have you flown any airline out of LAX? I'd rather have a connection out
of LGB than any flight out of LAX. Orlando isn't any joy either.

[snip]
> Perhaps that explains why your ancestors stayed behind, while the cream
> of the crop was coming to America? <ducking!>

Does Australia have the same attitude? :-)

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Judah

November 22nd 06, 12:36 AM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
ps.com:

> Chuckle. I used to think that way, too. As I've grown older, and my
> travels have expanded, I've found that each state is a country in
> itself, offering different treasures -- and they are all wonderful, and
> more than worth the effort to see and explore.

I have been to about 35 different states, as well as two Canadian provinces
and Puerto Rico.

Most of my travels have been work-related. And I am always surprised at
just how similar different towns are when it comes to their residential and
mall areas - you know the Walmarts, Home Depots, and Friday's... But I do
that outside of the resorts areas and tourist traps, it can be hard to tell
one city from the next...

Even the local attraction racks in the hotels are frequently very similar.
A six flags, some golf courses, the biggest area shopping malls, and
restaurants...

There are certain exceptions, of course... Texas. Texas is it's own
country, with it's own culture that is substantially different from the
rest of the US. Admittedly, I don't seem to get along too well with those
little doggies.

But there are certain regions that do have wondrous treasures - I like the
History that you find in the DC area and in much of the Northeast. The
mountains of Colorado are spectacular. My whole family loves DisneyWorld no
matter how old we get. And how can anyone not have a great time in Vegas!

Of course, travelling for work generally prevents me from getting the
opportunity to hunt for local treasures. I suspect if I were travelling for
vacation and spent time planning around tourist areas instead of newspaper
plants, I might feel differently.

Coming from New York City area, where I can experience some very diverse
cultures all within a very short distance, might cause me to take this all
for granted...

Greg Farris

November 22nd 06, 04:59 AM

In article >,
says...

>
>Have you flown any airline out of LAX? I'd rather have a connection out
>of LGB than any flight out of LAX. Orlando isn't any joy either.
>
>
I prefer LBG - one is generally well treated there!

Greg Farris

November 22nd 06, 05:19 AM

In article . com>,
says...

>
>
>That just doesn't happen in America, in my experience, and I've spent
>40+ years exploring this great land of ours.
>

Jay, you take something that's basically true, and exaggerate it and
generalize it to the point that it loses all meaning.

I believe it's fair to say there can be some problems with unwelcoming
attitudes in Europe, particularly in France and Belgium, where a "service"
ethic has simply not become very developed (French taxi drivers are the worst
representatives of our species this side of Pol Pot). But it's nothing any
adult can't get over and still have a perfectly enjoyable time discovering
the vast wealth of European culture, history and life-style.

In the US there are 4-way stop signs at intersections, and motorists wait
their turn and pass in order. In Europe they don't have them, because they
would all meet in a tangled mess in the middle, due to their "me first"
attitude! But to say that nasty things simply "do not happen" in America...

New York City is safer than it used to be, but it's still a pretty 'every man
for himself" experience ...

A. Sinan Unur

November 22nd 06, 06:05 AM

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
oups.com:

>> Travelers rate America's entry process as the "world's worst" by
>> greater than a 2:1 margin over the next-worst destination area.
>
> Well, duh. After a country has been successfully attacked by foreign
> nationals using airliners as weapons, did you expect to be welcomed
> with open arms at the airport, without paperwork or security?
>
> It's actually rather unusual that foreign tourists are being allowed
> in the country at all. Throughout US history, tourism has been shut
> down during war time. (Necessary aviation content: So has general
> aviation, by the way.)
>
> But all that's beside the point. In a country where most of our
> states are larger than France -- and there are 50 of them -- there is
> more to see and do here than any one person can accomplish in a
> lifetime.

FWIW, in more than a decade of living in the U.S., I have never been
treated badly by any U.S. official anywhere, be it at the consulate in
Ankara (in fact, they have gone out of their way to be helpful with
various emergencies), at any of the major airports (even when I was
coming back from Turkey after having completed my military service there
in 2002), land crossings from Canada, INS and later DHS offices in
various cities, social security offices, even the local DMV office here,
I have had the good fortune of dealing with people who were doing their
jobs professionally.

On the other hand, I still remember the abuse I had to endure when I
entered Denmark as a 16 year old exchange student officially approved by
the Danish Ministry of Education in the 80s, the anti-Muslim grafitti
that was everywhere in that country, or the incident at Charles De
Gaulle the only time I flew Air France (way before 9/11).

In fact, a lot of people I know in Turkey agree that the U.S. consulate
treats everyone in the most civilized and uniform manner (in contrast
to, say, the German, Austrian, and French consulates where people are
uniformly treated badly).

To be honest, I would have been uneasy as well if I had just witnessed
six people pray together and spread out to separate seats on the
airplane.

After all, I have had the sad experience of helplessly watching on live
TV when many people who call themselves devout Muslims burned a hotel
full of innocent people for supposed insults to their religion.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=47540

The last time we were in Istanbul, my girlfriend, who is American, and I
watched the security gates for a while. We observed, with some relief,
the extra scrutiny that was given to anyone who tried to enter the
secured area wearing long, baggy religous garb, sporting long beards,
and wearing a skull cap signifying a visit to Saudi Arabia.

Some stereotyping is necessary for efficient allocation of resources.
Notice I said some: If the whole process is based on stereotypes, it
becomes deterministic, and easy to defeat.

Sinan
--
A. Sinan Unur >
(remove .invalid and reverse each component for email address)

Bob Noel

November 22nd 06, 09:59 AM

In article >, Greg Farris >
wrote:

> >Have you flown any airline out of LAX? I'd rather have a connection out
> >of LGB than any flight out of LAX. Orlando isn't any joy either.
> >
> I prefer LBG - one is generally well treated there!

LBG? Typo or somewhere else?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

Mxsmanic

November 22nd 06, 04:38 PM

Jay Honeck writes:

> It's actually rather unusual that foreign tourists are being allowed in
> the country at all. Throughout US history, tourism has been shut down
> during war time.

The United States is not at war.

> In a country where most of our states are larger than France -- and
> there are 50 of them ...

Only two States are larger than France: Texas and Alaska. Texas is
about 3% larger than France. Alaska is about 21% as large as all of
the continental United States combined.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Martin Hotze

November 22nd 06, 10:14 PM

On 21 Nov 2006 04:36:43 -0800, Jay Honeck wrote:

>> Travelers rate America's entry process as the "world's worst" by greater
>> than a 2:1 margin over the next-worst destination area.
>
>Well, duh. After a country has been successfully attacked by foreign
>nationals using airliners as weapons, did you expect to be welcomed
>with open arms at the airport, without paperwork or security?

this was also the case pre 9/11.

>It's actually rather unusual that foreign tourists are being allowed in
>the country at all. Throughout US history, tourism has been shut down
>during war time. (Necessary aviation content: So has general
>aviation, by the way.)

which war? [1]
last time you (the US) declared war was during WWII (if memory serves me
right).

>But all that's beside the point. In a country where most of our states
>are larger than France -- and there are 50 of them -- there is more to
>see and do here than any one person can accomplish in a lifetime.

well ... it's the cultural diversity of other nationalities.

>But I'm gonna try!

well ......

[1] yeah. I know. War on drugs, on terrorism, and on education. So far your
war on (!) education was the most successful. *g*

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

Jay Honeck

November 23rd 06, 01:16 AM

> >But all that's beside the point. In a country where most of our states
> >are larger than France -- and there are 50 of them -- there is more to
> >see and do here than any one person can accomplish in a lifetime.
>
> well ... it's the cultural diversity of other nationalities.

I thought you had been to America, Martin? You must not have made it
out of Disneyland, and only seen rich white folks, eh?

America is made up of nothing BUT diverse nationalities, everywhere.
In little Iowa City (which is extremely diverse) I have a good chance
of meeting nearly any nationality on any given day, from the Congo to
Norway.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Greg Farris

November 23rd 06, 04:49 AM

In article >,
says...
>
>
>In article >, Greg Farris >
>wrote:
>
>> >Have you flown any airline out of LAX? I'd rather have a connection out
>> >of LGB than any flight out of LAX. Orlando isn't any joy either.
>> >
>> I prefer LBG - one is generally well treated there!
>
>LBG? Typo or somewhere else?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0616923/M
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0420914/M/
;-)

>
>--
>Bob Noel
>Looking for a sig the
>lawyers will hate
>

Larry Dighera

November 23rd 06, 05:05 PM

On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 23:14:10 +0100, Martin Hotze >
wrote in >:

>
>[1] yeah. I know. War on drugs, on terrorism, and on education. So far your
>war on (!) education was the most successful. *g*

Well said, but you failed to include the wars on statesmanship,
judicial due process and constitutional freedoms, and honesty, and
objective, rational thought, and stem cell research, and the
environment, and ...

Jose[_1_]

November 24th 06, 03:30 AM

> Well said, but you failed to include the wars on statesmanship,
> judicial due process and constitutional freedoms, and honesty, and
> objective, rational thought, and stem cell research, and the
> environment, and ...

Those aren't wars, they are covert operations. :)

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Sylvain

November 25th 06, 01:51 AM

Jay Honeck wrote:

> In little Iowa City (which is extremely diverse) I have a good chance
> of meeting nearly any nationality on any given day,

do you mean someone from actually a foreign country, as in, raised
and born there, or one of these ethnically confused hyphenated americans
who list the various percentage of this or that 'nationality' they think
they carry somehow in their DNA, but never left USA nor have any contact
nor any knowledge about the 'old country'? Seriously the latter is indeed
quite common everywhere, meeting the former is trickier unless you live
in the place that attracts immigration.

--Sylvain

john smith

November 25th 06, 02:44 AM

In article >,
Sylvain > wrote:

> Seriously the latter is indeed
> quite common everywhere, meeting the former is trickier unless you live
> in the place that attracts immigration.

Or the US government decides your city is a good place to resettle them.
Our government provides funds to take care of them for one or two years,
then tells them they are on their own. In the first two years, the ones
resettled in another city2 hear how well the others in city1 is doing
and pack up and leave city2 for city1. City2 continues to receive all
their money for x immigrants. City1, now with their original population
plus those newly arrived from city2 continue to receive federal funds
only for those initially shipped to city1. It is just so interesting to
watch the show.

Don Tuite

November 25th 06, 03:36 AM

On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 17:51:48 -0800, Sylvain > wrote:

>Jay Honeck wrote:
>
>> In little Iowa City (which is extremely diverse) I have a good chance
>> of meeting nearly any nationality on any given day,
>
>do you mean someone from actually a foreign country, as in, raised
>and born there, or one of these ethnically confused hyphenated americans
>who list the various percentage of this or that 'nationality' they think
>they carry somehow in their DNA, but never left USA nor have any contact
>nor any knowledge about the 'old country'? Seriously the latter is indeed
>quite common everywhere, meeting the former is trickier unless you live
>in the place that attracts immigration.
>
>--Sylvain

The University of Iowa is justifiably prestigious in science and the
arts, particularly letters. If you look at the stats for the fall
semester at the University:
http://www.registrar.uiowa.edu/profiles/20063_profile.pdf
there are Approximately 30,000 students (undergrad and grad), and 2004
come from outside the USA -- a 15:1 ratio, or 6.7%.

Faculty numbers about 1,700. I can't find any statistics, but based on
my own experience, I'd bet at least 10% of them (concentrated in the
sciences), call it 170, were born outside the USA.

State-wide, Iowa citizens born outside the USA constitute 3.1% of the
population, non-citizens constitute 2.1%, for a total foreign-born
percnentage of 5.2%.

The population of Iowa City in 2005 was approximately 63,000. Probably
half that is University students and faculty, and we've already
counted those university people. If the non-U population is 30,000,
about 1,500 would be foreign-born, applying the statewide percentages.

Boiling that down, during the school year, there are (round numbers):
2000 + 170 + 1500 = 3670 foreign-born people in a city of 63,000, or
about 6% of the population. If Jay meets 17 citizens a day in
cosmopolitan Iowa City, chances are good he'll meet somebody from WAY
out of town.

(That's in a city. In more rural areas, there's probably more
clustering of foreign born citizens and non-citizens, so even with
that statewide 5.2% figure, he could probably go years without seeing
anybody but corn-fed hyphenated Americans.

Don

Jay Honeck

November 25th 06, 04:34 AM

> Boiling that down, during the school year, there are (round numbers):
> 2000 + 170 + 1500 = 3670 foreign-born people in a city of 63,000, or
> about 6% of the population. If Jay meets 17 citizens a day in
> cosmopolitan Iowa City, chances are good he'll meet somebody from WAY
> out of town.

Dang, Don -- slow day at the office?

;-)

Don't forget the hotel part. We do a lot of business with University
folks who come to Iowa City for a semester from (for example) Japan or
Great Britain. This is a really fun part of the biz, because we get to
see foreign nationals the way they *live* -- not just the way they want
to appear on the street.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

john smith

November 25th 06, 02:04 PM

In article om>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Don't forget the hotel part. We do a lot of business with University
> folks who come to Iowa City for a semester from (for example) Japan or
> Great Britain. This is a really fun part of the biz, because we get to
> see foreign nationals the way they *live* -- not just the way they want
> to appear on the street.

Drifting this thread...
Do you take any/many of those visitors for airplane rides to show them
the countryside?

Sylvain

November 25th 06, 07:35 PM

john smith wrote:

> Our government provides funds to take care of them for one or two years,

darn, there was federal money to take care of immigrants for one or
two years, and you only tell me that a week from completing my
naturalization? I wish I had known :-)

--Sylvain

Sylvain

November 25th 06, 07:36 PM

Don Tuite wrote:

> The University of Iowa is justifiably prestigious in science and the
> arts, particularly letters.

ok, I didn't know that. So it is indeed one of the immigrants
magnets in the country.

--Sylvain

Greg Farris

November 25th 06, 08:31 PM

In article >,
says...
>
>
>john smith wrote:
>
>> Our government provides funds to take care of them for one or two years,
>
>darn, there was federal money to take care of immigrants for one or
>two years, and you only tell me that a week from completing my
>naturalization? I wish I had known :-)
>

Oh - you probably would have needed to demonstrate some kind of disability
to qualify anyway. Smoking or alcohol use are probably about as close as any
European could hope to get! ;-)

Larry Dighera

November 25th 06, 10:08 PM

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 11:36:35 -0800, Sylvain > wrote in
>:

>So it is indeed one of the immigrants magnets in the country.

Los Angeles seems to be the main one according to this e-mail message
I just received from an evangelical friend:

From the L.A. Times

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10.2
million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This
was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working
without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal
aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are
illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal
alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by
taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers
are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living
in garages.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles
are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.

9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.

10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English.
3.9 million speak Spanish.
(There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County).

(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops,
but 29% are on welfare.

Over 70% of the United States' annual population growth
(and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York)
results from immigration.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was,
(after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION/
year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University]. The lifetime
fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average
adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number.

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.

If they can come to this country to raise Hell and demonstrate by
the thousands, WHY can't they take charge over the corruption
in their own country?

We are a bunch of fools for letting this continue.

THE U.S. VS MEXICO

On February 15, 1998, the U.S. and Mexican soccer teams met at
the Los Angeles Coliseum. The crowd was overwhelmingly
pro-Mexican even though most lived in this country. They booed
during the National Anthem and U.S. flags were held
upside down. As the match progressed, supporters of the U.S.
team were insulted, pelted with projectiles, punched and spat
upon. Beer and trash were thrown at the U.S. players before and
after the match. The coach of the U.S. team, Steve Sampson said,
"This was the most painful experience I have ever had in this
profession."

Did you know that immigrants from Mexico and other non-European
countries can come to this country and get preferences in jobs,
education, and government contracts. It's called affirmative
action or racial privilege. The Emperor of Japan or the
President of Mexico could migrate here and immediately be eligible
for special rights unavailable for Americans of European descent.
Corporate America has signed on to the idea that minorities and
third world immigrants should get special, privileged status.
Some examples are Exxon, Texaco, Merrill Lynch, Boeing, Paine
Weber, Starbucks and many more.

DID YOU KNOW?

Did you know .. that Mexico regularly intercedes on the side
of the defense in criminal cases involving Mexican nationals?

Did you know .. that Mexico has NEVER extradited a Mexican
national accused of murder in the U.S. in spite of agreements to
do so? According to the L.A. Times, Orange County, California
is home to 275 gangs with 17,000 members, 98% of which are Mexican
and Asian. How's your county doing?

According to a New York Times article dated May 19, 1994, 20
years after the great influx of legal immigrants from Southeast
Asia, 30% are still on welfare compared to 8% of households
nationwide. A Wall Street Journal editorial dated December 5,
1994 quotes law enforcement officials as stating that Asian
mobsters are the "greatest criminal challenge the country
faces." Not bad for a group that is still under 5% of the
population.

Is education important to you? Here are the words of a teacher
who spent over 20 years in the Los Angeles School system.
"Imagine teachers in classes containing 30-40 students of widely
varying attention spans and motivation, many of whom aren't fluent
in English. Educators seek learning materials likely to reach the
majority of students and that means fewer words and math problems
and more pictures and multicultural references."

WHEN I WAS YOUNG

I remember hearing about the immigrants that came through Ellis
Island . They wanted to learn English. They wanted to breathe
free. They wanted to become Americans. Now, far too many
immigrants come here with demands. They demand to be taught in
their own language. They demand special privileges ...
affirmative action. They demand ethnic studies that glorify
their culture. NOW ..