Embry Riddle flight department devastated by tornado

School looking for replacement aircraft to lease

While most EAA members were celebrating the Christmas
holiday on Monday,
the staff at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona
Beach,
Fla., was dealing with the aftermath of a tornado that
ripped through
the campus that day. More than 50 ERAU aircraft were
destroyed or
damaged by the tornado, while nine campus buildings were
also hit. The
damage caused university officials to delay the start of
classes for one
week following the holiday recess, with the spring semester
now starting
on Jan. 16.

EAA immediately offered assistance to Embry Riddle in the
aftermath of
the storm, and the university has asked EAA for possible
assistance from
its members. The university is now looking to leaseback, or
rent by the
flight hour, several late-model Cessna 172s (180-horsepower
G 1000 or
conventional equipped aircraft) to replace those lost in the
Dec. 25
tornado. The leases/or hourly rentals would last up to four
months. The
aircraft will be maintained to Embry Riddle exacting
maintenance
standards and returned to the owner/operator with either a
fresh
100-hour or annual inspection.

If you can assist, please send an e-mail to Frank Ayers,
Chairman of the
Flight Department ) or Jack Haun, Director
of
Maintenance ) to discuss lease/rental terms.
Please
provide the N-number of the aircraft and a general
description.

For more information, visit www.eaa.org

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:03:29 -0800, Jim Macklin wrote
(in article >):

> Embry Riddle flight department devastated by tornado
>
> School looking for replacement aircraft to lease

Cessna is also working hard trying to round up some planes. This is a big
deal.

In article >,
B A R R Y > wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:17:31 -0800, C J Campbell
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Cessna is also working hard trying to round up some planes. This is a big
> >deal.
>
> Not if you're an ERAU A&P student. <G>

I suspect this is also a windfall (literally :-)) for Cessna. It's a knock
on the chin for ERU (and their insurance company), but it'll also probably
double Cessna's orderbook for the next year.

Yes it is, I'm sure there are students from all over the
world, on time limited visas that need airplanes to fly.



"C J Campbell" > wrote in
message
e.com...
| On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:03:29 -0800, Jim Macklin wrote
| (in article >):
|
| > Embry Riddle flight department devastated by tornado
| >
| > School looking for replacement aircraft to lease
|
| Cessna is also working hard trying to round up some
planes. This is a big
| deal.
|

Yes and no. They need parts and space.



"B A R R Y" > wrote in
message ...
| On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:17:31 -0800, C J Campbell
| > wrote:
|
| >
| >
| >Cessna is also working hard trying to round up some
planes. This is a big
| >deal.
|
| Not if you're an ERAU A&P student. <G>

Cessna is already working at current capacity, so no or
limited capacity to get ERAU 50 new airplanes in a week or
two. They might even lease a few G1000 equipped C 182 to go
along with the 172s.

What they need is some Cubs for basic pre-solo and solo
training, but I don't run their school.


"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
| In article >,
| B A R R Y > wrote:
|
| > On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:17:31 -0800, C J Campbell
| > > wrote:
| >
| > >
| > >
| > >Cessna is also working hard trying to round up some
planes. This is a big
| > >deal.
| >
| > Not if you're an ERAU A&P student. <G>
|
| I suspect this is also a windfall (literally :-)) for
Cessna. It's a knock
| on the chin for ERU (and their insurance company), but
it'll also probably
| double Cessna's orderbook for the next year.

Thats interesting. I study Computer Science at Purdue University, and
my roommate is on the ATC track of Aviation Management but is taking
Private Pilot flight courses as well. He says you have to be a US
citizen to enroll in the flight courses at Purdue... would this not be
the same at ERAU, or is this a policy I am either misunderstanding or
is unique to Purdue?

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Yes it is, I'm sure there are students from all over the
> world, on time limited visas that need airplanes to fly.

The TSA has set strict background checks for pilot training.
Perhaps Purdue just doesn't want or need the extra
complications.
http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/layers/afsp/editorial_multi_image_with_table_0215.shtm


> wrote in message
ups.com...
| Thats interesting. I study Computer Science at Purdue
University, and
| my roommate is on the ATC track of Aviation Management but
is taking
| Private Pilot flight courses as well. He says you have to
be a US
| citizen to enroll in the flight courses at Purdue... would
this not be
| the same at ERAU, or is this a policy I am either
misunderstanding or
| is unique to Purdue?
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > Yes it is, I'm sure there are students from all over the
| > world, on time limited visas that need airplanes to fly.
|

An interesting fact, the USAF almost lost the entire fleet
of B1B bombers at McConnell when the "Andover Tornado"
crossed the southern and southeastern side of the base.
http://www.andovernet.com/tornado/tornado/pages/looking_back.htm
The most famous of these tornadoes is what has become known
as the "Wichita/Andover Tornado." This tornado first formed
around 5 p.m. CDT near the city of Anthony, about 40 miles
southwest of Wichita. The tornado was relatively small at
that time, coming down and touching the ground on 2
occasions, but causing little damage. At 5:57 p.m. CDT a
larger tornado touched down 1 1/2 miles southwest of
Clearwater, or about 20 miles southwest of Wichita. This
tornado remained on the ground for 46 miles! It moved
through Haysville and the southern sections of Wichita. The
tornado struck McConnell Air Force Base (AFB) at 6:25 p.m.
CDT, causing $62 million dollars in damage and passing
within 2000 yards of the flight-line where more than 80
military jets were parked.


I do hope they have built real shelters for the B1s and B2s,
there are no replacements to buy, borrow or lease.




> wrote in message
ups.com...
| Thats interesting. I study Computer Science at Purdue
University, and
| my roommate is on the ATC track of Aviation Management but
is taking
| Private Pilot flight courses as well. He says you have to
be a US
| citizen to enroll in the flight courses at Purdue... would
this not be
| the same at ERAU, or is this a policy I am either
misunderstanding or
| is unique to Purdue?
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > Yes it is, I'm sure there are students from all over the
| > world, on time limited visas that need airplanes to fly.
|

Talk about pressure, Mom in the back seat.



"B A R R Y" > wrote in
message ...
| On 28 Dec 2006 21:46:19 -0800, wrote:
|
| > He says you have to be a US
| >citizen to enroll in the flight courses at Purdue...
would this not be
| >the same at ERAU, or is this a policy I am either
misunderstanding or
| >is unique to Purdue?
|
| Possibly.
|
| I know a 17 year old Indian kid who just passed his
PP-ASEL at a local
| FBO flight school. He's not a US citizen, and no laws
were broken.
|
| There is extra paperwork and background checks for
non-citizens, and
| there are things non-citizens can't do, like tour an FAA
TRACON.
|
| FWIW, his mom rode along during the early lessons, in full
traditional
| garb. That was cute. <G>

B A R R Y schrieb:

> I know a 17 year old Indian kid who just passed his PP-ASEL at a local
> FBO flight school. He's not a US citizen, and no laws were broken.


A friend here just made his type rating (Citation 1, IIRC) in the US. He
tried hard to find an alternative outside the US but he had no luck. So
he had to go through all the hassle with fingerprinting (cost him an
extra flight to Paris only for that), a ton of paperwork, special
treatment at immigration, ...

It was really made almost impossible for him to spend those 10 or 20
AMUs in the US ...

As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what cost?

#m
--
I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>B A R R Y schrieb:
>
>> I know a 17 year old Indian kid who just passed his PP-ASEL at a local
>> FBO flight school. He's not a US citizen, and no laws were broken.
>
>
> A friend here just made his type rating (Citation 1, IIRC) in the US. He
> tried hard to find an alternative outside the US but he had no luck. So
> he had to go through all the hassle with fingerprinting (cost him an
> extra flight to Paris only for that), a ton of paperwork, special
> treatment at immigration, ...
>
> It was really made almost impossible for him to spend those 10 or 20
> AMUs in the US ...
>
> As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what cost?

Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly in the us and then
highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of all the rules and
laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
logical.

And as you said he couldn't find an alternative outside the US so I guess we
aren't all bad.

Gig 601XL Builder schrieb:
(...)

>> As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what cost?
>
> Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly in the us and then
> highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of all the rules and
> laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
> logical.

So you harass all (!) foreign pilots that freely (!) spend thousands of
$$ only because of a handfull of idiots. (besides there are also
restrictions for US pilots [as you know], or can you fly in DC?).

It is not only that you require some paperwork or a visa (I can follow
that logic to a certain degree). It is mostly the *way* you do it. He
had to do it (job). He wouldn't have done it if it was only for pleasure.
My point is: you are just hammering another nail into the coffin of GA
(and you are also turning away much money).

> And as you said he couldn't find an alternative outside the US so I guess we
> aren't all bad.

This has nothing to do with being bad or not. You have the equipment for
the C1, alternatives are only available by mid 2007 (and he was not able
to wait that long). He had no choice to pick a differnt type.

#m
--
I am not a terrorist <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> So you harass all (!) foreign pilots that freely (!) spend thousands of
> $$ only because of a handfull of idiots.

When I can get a flying job in the EU as easily as a European can get a
flying job in the US, I'll have slightly more sympathy for the training
hassles.

"Martin Hotze" > wrote

> It is not only that you require some paperwork or a visa (I can follow
> that logic to a certain degree). It is mostly the *way* you do it. He
> had to do it (job). He wouldn't have done it if it was only for pleasure.
> My point is: you are just hammering another nail into the coffin of GA
> (and you are also turning away much money).

But people still do come here to train for pleasure flying and for
commercial training from all over the world. Why? Because it is still
cheaper and better and more accessible than most anywhere else in the WORLD.

Suck it up. I'm sick and tired of hearing foreigners bitch about the US.
Stay the hell away if you don't like it. I like it just fine without you
here bitching, anyway.

To the rest of the group, sorry for the ugly American routine. I think he
earned it, this time.
--
Jim in NC

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> Gig 601XL Builder schrieb:
> (...)
>
>>> As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what cost?
>>
>> Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly in the us and
>> then
>> highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of all the rules
>> and
>> laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
>> logical.
>
> So you harass all (!) foreign pilots that freely (!) spend thousands of
> $$ only because of a handfull of idiots. (besides there are also
> restrictions for US pilots [as you know], or can you fly in DC?).
>


Yep every last one of them. Don't blame us blame the terrorists. And yes
there are restrictions on US pilots and as I said "So of all the rules and
laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
logical."




> It is not only that you require some paperwork or a visa (I can follow
> that logic to a certain degree). It is mostly the *way* you do it. He
> had to do it (job). He wouldn't have done it if it was only for pleasure.
> My point is: you are just hammering another nail into the coffin of GA
> (and you are also turning away much money).
>

Paperowrk sucks. We all hate it but the government pretty much runs on it.
WHat do you think we should do to secure our borders and try and reduce the
posibility of another 9/11? A bigger nail in the coffin would be US tranined
foriegn pilot slamming into another building.


>> And as you said he couldn't find an alternative outside the US so I guess
>> we
>> aren't all bad.
>
> This has nothing to do with being bad or not. You have the equipment for
> the C1, alternatives are only available by mid 2007 (and he was not able
> to wait that long). He had no choice to pick a differnt type.
>

And the US had what he needed because it is well, the US. And to keep things
like the best simulators around and available for not only US citizens but
foreign nationals as well we have to protect the country.

> Paperowrk sucks. We all hate it but the government pretty much runs on it.
> WHat do you think we should do to secure our borders and try and reduce the
> posibility of another 9/11? A bigger nail in the coffin would be US tranined
> foriegn pilot slamming into another building.

I don't think the training the terrorists received in the US was all
that enabling, considering how much info is on the web, and considering
how MSFS can teach a lot about crashing into buildings.

I can see the new campaign slogan: "Paperwork - keeps the terrorists away"

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Martin Hotze wrote:
>
> So you harass all (!) foreign pilots that freely (!) spend thousands of
> $$ only because of a handfull of idiots. (besides there are also
> restrictions for US pilots [as you know], or can you fly in DC?).

> It is not only that you require some paperwork or a visa (I can follow
> that logic to a certain degree). It is mostly the *way* you do it. He
> had to do it (job). He wouldn't have done it if it was only for pleasure.
> My point is: you are just hammering another nail into the coffin of GA
> (and you are also turning away much money).
>

If it seems like harrassment, that is unfortunate. Blame our
overprotective gov't. There's always a balance between national
security and individual freedoms it seems

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> Gig 601XL Builder schrieb:
> (...)
>
>>> As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what cost?
>>
>> Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly in the us and
>> then
>> highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of all the rules
>> and
>> laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
>> logical.
>
> So you harass all (!) foreign pilots that freely (!) spend thousands of
> $$ only because of a handfull of idiots.

Yes, but you have to understand how important it is to keep out the
terrorists like Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Ted Kazinski, etc. (feel free to
correct the spelling)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
news:jtednatDW9Tx_gjYnZ2dnUVZ_rylnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gig 601XL Builder schrieb:
>> (...)
>>
>>>> As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what cost?
>>>
>>> Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly in the us and
>>> then
>>> highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of all the rules
>>> and
>>> laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
>>> logical.
>>
>> So you harass all (!) foreign pilots that freely (!) spend thousands of
>> $$ only because of a handfull of idiots.
>
> Yes, but you have to understand how important it is to keep out the
> terrorists like Tim McVeigh, Terry Nichols, Ted Kazinski, etc. (feel free
> to correct the spelling)
>

That there are home grown assholes doesn't mean we can't do what we can to
keep foreign assholes out. If you think it does then well your just another
brand of asshole.

"Jose" > wrote in message
et...
>> Paperowrk sucks. We all hate it but the government pretty much runs on
>> it. WHat do you think we should do to secure our borders and try and
>> reduce the posibility of another 9/11? A bigger nail in the coffin would
>> be US tranined foriegn pilot slamming into another building.
>
> I don't think the training the terrorists received in the US was all that
> enabling, considering how much info is on the web, and considering how
> MSFS can teach a lot about crashing into buildings.
>

You've been reading Mx to much.


> I can see the new campaign slogan: "Paperwork - keeps the terrorists
> away"
>
>

How, other than paperwork, are you planning to run checks on those who want
to learn to fly in the US.

And before I'm asked I will state for the record that I'd have no problem
with every foreign national requesting entry into the US to have to complete
the same paperwork.

>>I don't think the training the terrorists received in the US was all that
>> enabling, considering how much info is on the web, and considering how
>> MSFS can teach a lot about crashing into buildings.
> You've been reading Mx to much.

I don't think so. Geez... all those guys had to do was steer.

> How, other than paperwork, are you planning to run checks on those who want
> to learn to fly in the US.

Listening to the CFIs when they report something odd to the government.

Jose
--
He who laughs, lasts.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Talk about pressure, Mom in the back seat.
>
Crimeny . . . that is serious pressure . . . that may be worse than
Ernest Gann's story of his captain lighting matches under his nose
during an otherwise straight-forward instrument approach . . .
apparently to emphasize that you need to be able to do this stuff . . .
even under pressure.

Blue skies . . . and maybe less pressure on all of us.

Martin Hotze wrote:
> It is not only that you require some paperwork or a visa (I can follow
> that logic to a certain degree). It is mostly the *way* you do it. He
> had to do it (job). He wouldn't have done it if it was only for pleasure.
> My point is: you are just hammering another nail into the coffin of GA
> (and you are also turning away much money).
>
For me, the flustrating part was that there was no easy way to get
the finger printing done. When I tried:
- The local US consulate wouldn't do it, because they are State Dept
and not TSA.
- The local US airport (Buffalo NY) wouldn't do it, because they only
did finger printing for TSA employees, not outsiders.
- The NY State Police knew nothing about it and didn't want to know.

Since then, I've heard that you can get it done at the Rochester NY
airport, but that's an extra 90min drive (going right past Buffalo's
airport).

At the time, I was going to do this so I could do a few hours of dual
in a Stearman (I had been there the previous year), so I said "screw
it"
and Van Sant lost the business, through no fault of their own. (Since
then, the rule has been ammended to only apply to licenses and
ratings, so I could do the training now, without the finger printing.
All they need to do now for non-license/rating training is take a copy
of my passport, which seems reasonable.)

In summary, if it was well organized, it wouldn't be a big hassle, rick
ps: btw, the flying school at the local airport is booming, mostly
with full time students from India. Did they come here to avoid
the TSA hassle?

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> Gig 601XL Builder schrieb:
> (...)
>
> >> As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what cost?
> >
> > Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly in the us and
> > then
> > highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of all the rules and
> > laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
> > logical.
>
> So you harass all (!) foreign pilots that freely (!) spend thousands of
> $$ only because of a handfull of idiots. (besides there are also
> restrictions for US pilots [as you know], or can you fly in DC?).

Martin, politicians and bureaucrats are the same all over the world.
When something happens, they have to react. When they react, they
usually over react.
The politicians have to spread money to those who contribute to their
elections. They manipulate the media to further their cause.
The unfortunate part is, of the <30% of the population that actually
votes, less than half can actually determine that the politicians and
bureaucrats are feathering their own beds and are powerless to change
the situation.

B A R R Y wrote:


>
> The Indian kid had to cough up an extra document or two, and he wasn't
> allowed to tour the local TRACON.

He can't just show up like you and me. He needs to call ahead.
Wouldn't even take a week to get him in there.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly in the us and then
> highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of all the rules and
> laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
> logical.

They could have trained outside the U.S., so it doesn't really change
anything. And it's not very hard to aim an aircraft at a building.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Buck Murdock writes:

> When I can get a flying job in the EU as easily as a European can get a
> flying job in the US, I'll have slightly more sympathy for the training
> hassles.

Most GA pilots are not looking for flying jobs.

What, exactly, are the differences between getting a flying job in the
EU and getting one in the US?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Morgans writes:

> Suck it up. I'm sick and tired of hearing foreigners bitch about the US.
> Stay the hell away if you don't like it. I like it just fine without you
> here bitching, anyway.

Then you won't mind the upcoming application of these same
restrictions to U.S. citizens.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

B A R R Y writes:

> The Indian kid had to cough up an extra document or two, and he wasn't
> allowed to tour the local TRACON.
>
> Other than that, he pays the same hourly rental and training rate as
> any American.

The black man wasn't allowed to eat at the same table as the white
people, but he got the same food and service as any white person
would.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> Yep every last one of them. Don't blame us blame the terrorists.

The terrorists didn't eliminate these liberties. Americans did.

> Paperowrk sucks. We all hate it but the government pretty much runs on it.
> WHat do you think we should do to secure our borders and try and reduce the
> posibility of another 9/11?

There isn't going to be another 9/11, just as there was never another
Pearl Harbor. Therefore reducing the possibility of one is moot, and
a waste of resources.

> A bigger nail in the coffin would be US tranined foriegn pilot
> slamming into another building.

Terrorists hope and expect that their targets will self-destruct
through fear and hysteria, and they are usually right.

> And the US had what he needed because it is well, the US. And to keep things
> like the best simulators around and available for not only US citizens but
> foreign nationals as well we have to protect the country.

There was a time when Americans had courage. Now all they have is
ego.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> And before I'm asked I will state for the record that I'd have no problem
> with every foreign national requesting entry into the US to have to complete
> the same paperwork.

Then you won't mind completing the same paperwork yourself.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> That there are home grown assholes doesn't mean we can't do what we can to
> keep foreign assholes out.

If you allow the home-grown ones to act unhindered, there's no point
in keeping the foreign ones out.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

B A R R Y writes:

> Nobody remembered he wasn't a citizen when we got a group together to
> do a tour. We thought of the kid as one of us, totally forgetting
> he's not an American citizen.

Try not to make that mistake again. Some people are more equal than
others.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

TSA rules are what was easy, they did something, that made
the media and public "happy" because they did something.


"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
message ...
|
| "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
| ...
| >B A R R Y schrieb:
| >
| >> I know a 17 year old Indian kid who just passed his
PP-ASEL at a local
| >> FBO flight school. He's not a US citizen, and no laws
were broken.
| >
| >
| > A friend here just made his type rating (Citation 1,
IIRC) in the US. He
| > tried hard to find an alternative outside the US but he
had no luck. So
| > he had to go through all the hassle with fingerprinting
(cost him an
| > extra flight to Paris only for that), a ton of
paperwork, special
| > treatment at immigration, ...
| >
| > It was really made almost impossible for him to spend
those 10 or 20
| > AMUs in the US ...
| >
| > As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what
cost?
|
| Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly
in the us and then
| highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of
all the rules and
| laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one
probably the most
| logical.
|
| And as you said he couldn't find an alternative outside
the US so I guess we
| aren't all bad.
|
|

It would be worse pressure if Mom was driving the car and
you were on you first date the "girl" of your dreams.


"John" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > Talk about pressure, Mom in the back seat.
| >
| Crimeny . . . that is serious pressure . . . that may be
worse than
| Ernest Gann's story of his captain lighting matches under
his nose
| during an otherwise straight-forward instrument approach .
.. .
| apparently to emphasize that you need to be able to do
this stuff . . .
| even under pressure.
|
| Blue skies . . . and maybe less pressure on all of us.
|

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 11:35:27 -0500, Buck Murdock wrote:

>When I can get a flying job in the EU as easily as a European can get a
>flying job in the US, I'll have slightly more sympathy for the training
>hassles.

Are there any major differences (besides that JAR is just starting in
Europe, so you might have to deal with regulations of every single
country)?

#m
--
Enemy Combatant <http://itsnotallbad.com/>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:06:21 -0500, Morgans wrote:

>But people still do come here to train for pleasure flying and for
>commercial training from all over the world.

agreed; but you don't know how many didn't come any more.

>Why? Because it is still
>cheaper and better and more accessible than most anywhere else in the WORLD.

true :-)
I just found out that today I could fly twice as much in the US than I did
back in 2002 for the same money. IOW, I could make the same trip twice
(almost; not counting the trans-atlantic flight).

>Suck it up. I'm sick and tired of hearing foreigners bitch about the US.

It's just a statement. And it was more a statement on the influence on GA (
a small influence, but still).

>Stay the hell away if you don't like it.

Right now I don't like it, so I do stay away. And 'you' do all the best to
keep it that way. And: this is not only me, but this is collateral damage,
I suppose.

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 21:36:17 GMT, B A R R Y wrote:

>The Indian kid had to cough up an extra document or two, (...)

*hahaha*
good one.

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 11:09:57 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:


>Yep every last one of them. Don't blame us blame the terrorists.

bah, they already won.

>A bigger nail in the coffin would be US tranined
>foriegn pilot slamming into another building.

I wouldn't care if they are US trained or not. I even wouldn't care if they
are foreigners or not. I would care about someone slamming into a building.

What's the difference if the pilot is a citizen or not? Can you put your
hand into the fire that there are no US terrorists (citizens)?

>And the US had what he needed because it is well, the US.


Not. This very company had the equipment only in one of their many
facilities. And this one was located in the US. It wasn't the US who
provided anything.

>And to keep things
>like the best simulators around and available for not only US citizens but
>foreign nationals as well we have to protect the country.

You just put it like he trained in a government facility.
"It's the money, stupid."

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:25:21 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

>That there are home grown assholes doesn't mean we can't do what we can to
>keep foreign assholes out. If you think it does then well your just another
>brand of asshole.

Following you logic it seems important that also US citizens go through all
the paperwork to sort out potential threats. Don't you agree?
If you don't have anything to hide you can't object. It is only 2 or 3
forms, fingerprinting and the CFI reporting to the govt.

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 16:25:54 -0500, john smith wrote:

>Martin, politicians and bureaucrats are the same all over the world.

mostly true

>When something happens, they have to react. When they react, they
>usually over react.

usually. yes.
What are the reactions to the bombings in London or Madrid in terms of
reaction towards a certain group (pilots, people using trains, whatever)?

What happened all the years in Northern Ireland?

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 17:01:51 GMT, B A R R Y wrote:

>>As you said: it actually _is_ possible, but at what cost?
>
>The same cost as an American.
>
>The kid attends high school here, as do his brothers and a sister. He
>didn't pay any more for flight instruction than I did.

There is more meaning to cost than money.

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

"Nomen Nescio" > wrote in message
...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Mxsmanic >
>
>>There was a time when Americans had courage. Now all they have is
>>ego.
>
> Just those living in France.
>
How would anyone in France have even the slight hint about courage?

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:24:49 -0700, Matt Barrow wrote:

>How would anyone in France have even the slight hint about courage?

OMG how lame. bashing at the lowest level.

#m

f-up2poster
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

Matt Barrow writes:

> How would anyone in France have even the slight hint about courage?

From experience saving Americans during their revolution, perhaps.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:45:12 -0500, B A R R Y wrote:

>The kid simply had to identify himself and provide visa paperwork.

And have you seen what there is to sign on the paperwork? You give up every
right you have. With that signed you are nothing and you need close to
nothing to be detained forever.

>That's it! There was no public tribunal,

hey, anything public would be great. But you give up every right.

>no sign was required on his
>front lawn, he didn't have to run laps or do push-ups, he didn't have
>to wear a scarlet letter on his forehead...

Don't give them ideas.

#m, no, not trolling. just loving personal freedom.
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

> From: Mxsmanic >
>
> >There was a time when Americans had courage. Now all they have is
> >ego.

http://i16.tinypic.com/40ojwb7.jpg

Martin Hotze wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 13:25:21 -0600, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>> That there are home grown assholes doesn't mean we can't do what we can to
>> keep foreign assholes out. If you think it does then well your just another
>> brand of asshole.
>
> Following you logic it seems important that also US citizens go through all
> the paperwork to sort out potential threats. Don't you agree?
> If you don't have anything to hide you can't object. It is only 2 or 3
> forms, fingerprinting and the CFI reporting to the govt.
>

Well Martin, I've had to have background checks that required
fingerprinting three times. Didn't bother me a bit except for the first
time when they used ink that was a bitch to get off.

Martin Hotze wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 16:25:54 -0500, john smith wrote:

> What happened all the years in Northern Ireland?
>

They sent in the SAS.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:36:42 -0600, 601XL Builder wrote:

>Well Martin, I've had to have background checks that required
>fingerprinting three times.

related to your GA flying?

#m
--
I am not a terrorist. <http://www.casualdisobedience.com/>

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> Well, we did have a bunch of non-US citizens train to fly in the us and then
> highjack planes and use them to kill 3000+ people. So of all the rules and
> laws that have come down the pike since 9/11 this one probably the most
> logical.

Just what precisely is doing extra intrusive checks on international
students going to achieve?

Are you to suggest that only international people could ever hijack a
plane?

Are you to suggest that people who hijack planes in the US are only
going to train in the US, or in the air at all for that matter?

Or perhaps you think that the hijackers are going to present a PPL to
the cabin crew before they hijack and the cabin crew will reject non-US
issued licences!

These "most logical" rules and laws as you put it serve nothing but to
calm the fears of the general unthinking public, they do nothing to
protect from further incidents.

writes:

> Are you to suggest that only international people could ever hijack a
> plane?

Nothing. Piper Cubs are rarely hijacked.

> Are you to suggest that people who hijack planes in the US are only
> going to train in the US, or in the air at all for that matter?

Exactly. You don't have to be a qualified pilot just to fly into a
building, and you certainly don't need any flying qualifications at
all to hijack an aircraft. Thus, you don't necessarily need any
special training at a flight school. Nor do you need any kind of
license.

> These "most logical" rules and laws as you put it serve nothing but to
> calm the fears of the general unthinking public, they do nothing to
> protect from further incidents.

Yes. But the likelihood of other incidents is actually quite low, and
they are quite difficult to effectively prevent; whereas the
importance of impressing the stupid masses is very high, even if it
does nothing for security, especially if they are able to vote.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Martin Hotze wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006 19:36:42 -0600, 601XL Builder wrote:
>
>> Well Martin, I've had to have background checks that required
>> fingerprinting three times.
>
> related to your GA flying?
>

No. That wasn't the point.