Or, every bugsmasher pilot's secret fantasy...

I just saw this little snippet about the Continental flight whose
pilot became incapacitated. This is the first I'd read about a
passenger taking the right seat. I guess TSA/FAA's secured flight deck
rules go out the window in such a situation?

The 757's flaring height must have looked close to pattern altitude to
a 182 pilot... Do you think Stephen Brown could petition the FAA
Commish to allow him to log the time as SIC?

<silly mode off>

http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/795-full.html#194328

Kingfish wrote:
> Or, every bugsmasher pilot's secret fantasy...

Definitely the secret fantasy category for me, but I definitely don't
want the opportunity to come at the expense of another pilot as in this
case.

Matt

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Kingfish wrote:
>> Or, every bugsmasher pilot's secret fantasy...
>
> Definitely the secret fantasy category for me, but I definitely don't want
> the opportunity to come at the expense of another pilot as in this case.
>
> Matt


Must of had the fish.

--------------------------------------------------
DW

On 2007-01-29, Kingfish > wrote:
> The 757's flaring height must have looked close to pattern altitude to
> a 182 pilot... Do you think Stephen Brown could petition the FAA
> Commish to allow him to log the time as SIC?

I believe that an ATP (such as FO, who was acting as PIC in this
instance) can give instruction in air carrier operations - and
therefore, the FO could sign his log book as dual received.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Kingfish wrote:
>> Or, every bugsmasher pilot's secret fantasy...
>
> Definitely the secret fantasy category for me, but I definitely don't want
> the opportunity to come at the expense of another pilot as in this case.
>
> Matt
Just how I feel. I want to land it.

>"Dylan Smith" wrote in message>
> I believe that an ATP (such as FO, who was acting as PIC in this
> instance) can give instruction in air carrier operations - and
> therefore, the FO could sign his log book as dual received.

IIRC, the ATP must be rated in the -757 to be able to sign off instruction.
The -182 wouldn't need a sign-off if he is MEL rated. Logging SIC time is
not the same as acting as SIC.

D.

"Darkwing" <theducksmailATyahoo.com> wrote in message
...
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Kingfish wrote:
>>> Or, every bugsmasher pilot's secret fantasy...
>>
>> Definitely the secret fantasy category for me, but I definitely don't
>> want the opportunity to come at the expense of another pilot as in this
>> case.
>>
>> Matt
>
>
> Must of had the fish.
>
But otherwise he's free to pursuit a life of religious fulfillment.

"Kingfish" > wrote in news:1170101726.041601.292480
@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> Or, every bugsmasher pilot's secret fantasy...

Certainly mine...

> Do you think Stephen Brown could petition the FAA
> Commish to allow him to log the time as SIC?

Or will the FAA take action against him for operating an aircraft for which
he is not properly rated?

Judah writes:

> Or will the FAA take action against him for operating an aircraft for which
> he is not properly rated?

Was he acting as a required copilot, or just following instructions to
provide an extra set of hands for the pilot?

It sounds like he just talked on the radio, read checklists, and
handled the few things that the pilot couldn't readily do himself,
such as setting flaps and lowering gear (awkward from the left seat).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Judah > wrote:
> "Kingfish" > wrote in
> news:1170101726.041601.292480 @h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>> Do you think Stephen Brown could petition the FAA
>> Commish to allow him to log the time as SIC?
>
> Or will the FAA take action against him for operating an aircraft for
> which he is not properly rated?

If they did it would hand FAA enemies a load of political ammunition. I
presume though that this is covered by section 91.3(b):

"In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command
may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that
emergency."

Judah wrote:
> "Kingfish" > wrote in news:1170101726.041601.292480
> @h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>>Or, every bugsmasher pilot's secret fantasy...
>
>
> Certainly mine...
>
>
>>Do you think Stephen Brown could petition the FAA
>>Commish to allow him to log the time as SIC?
>
>
> Or will the FAA take action against him for operating an aircraft for which
> he is not properly rated?

I suspect an emergency had been declared.

Matt

On 2007-01-30, Judah > wrote:
> Or will the FAA take action against him for operating an aircraft for which
> he is not properly rated?

No. In the case of an emergency, the PIC (the 757's FO, acting as PIC
since the captain had become incapacitated) can deviate from these
rules in handling the emergency.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2007-01-29, Kingfish > wrote:
>> The 757's flaring height must have looked close to pattern altitude to
>> a 182 pilot... Do you think Stephen Brown could petition the FAA
>> Commish to allow him to log the time as SIC?
>
> I believe that an ATP (such as FO, who was acting as PIC in this
> instance) can give instruction in air carrier operations - and
> therefore, the FO could sign his log book as dual received.

I would damn sure log it, whether the FAA allowed it, or not!

What if the FAA does not allow it? He does not get to count it towards a
rating in jet transport.

Darn! I'll bet that really breaks him up! <g> I mean, who cares? THe only
thing that would matter for, is if he is really going for that rating!
Think that will ever be likely for the average GA pilot? ;-)

What a thrill, but of course, in a tragic situation. Still a tale to tell.
It isn't as if he caused the death. 'Tis a good thing that he was aboard.
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2007-01-29, Kingfish > wrote:
>>> The 757's flaring height must have looked close to pattern altitude to
>>> a 182 pilot... Do you think Stephen Brown could petition the FAA
>>> Commish to allow him to log the time as SIC?
>>
>> I believe that an ATP (such as FO, who was acting as PIC in this
>> instance) can give instruction in air carrier operations - and
>> therefore, the FO could sign his log book as dual received.
>
> I would damn sure log it, whether the FAA allowed it, or not!
>
> What if the FAA does not allow it? He does not get to count it towards a
> rating in jet transport.
>
> Darn! I'll bet that really breaks him up! <g> I mean, who cares? THe
> only thing that would matter for, is if he is really going for that
> rating! Think that will ever be likely for the average GA pilot? ;-)
>
> What a thrill, but of course, in a tragic situation. Still a tale to
> tell. It isn't as if he caused the death. 'Tis a good thing that he was
> aboard.
> --
> Jim in NC

Just resist the temptation to pop your head into the cockpit and say:

"Good Luck, we're all counting on you..."

Jay B

"Jay Beckman" > wrote

> Just resist the temptation to pop your head into the cockpit and say:
>
> "Good Luck, we're all counting on you..."

I'll try my best to resist, should I ever be in that place! <g>
--
Jim in NC

On Jan 29, 10:07 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Judah writes:
> > Or will the FAA take action against him for operating an aircraft for which
> > he is not properly rated?Was he acting as a required copilot, or just following instructions to
> provide an extra set of hands for the pilot?
>
> It sounds like he just talked on the radio, read checklists, and
> handled the few things that the pilot couldn't readily do himself,
> such as setting flaps and lowering gear (awkward from the left seat).
>

MX... Judah was obviously joking here...

On Jan 29, 8:38 pm, "Darkwing" <theducksmailATyahoo.com> wrote:

Must of had the fish.
>

Too funny. Someone said just that on the USA Today site on this same
topic... And got chewed out for it too... (some folks just have no
SOH) Anytime you can work in a reference to the movie "Airplane" it
can't be a bad thing...

"Ever see a grown man naked?"

"Kingfish" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
>
> On Jan 29, 8:38 pm, "Darkwing" <theducksmailATyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Must of had the fish.
>>
>
> Too funny. Someone said just that on the USA Today site on this same
> topic... And got chewed out for it too... (some folks just have no
> SOH) Anytime you can work in a reference to the movie "Airplane" it
> can't be a bad thing...
>
> "Ever see a grown man naked?"

Roger, Roger; what's our vector, Victor?

>

"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Ever see a grown man naked?"
>
> Roger, Roger; what's our vector, Victor?
>

What can you make of this?

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2007-01-30, Judah > wrote:
>> Or will the FAA take action against him for operating an aircraft for
>> which
>> he is not properly rated?

At this point who really cares about the FAA. The only thing important is if
the flight attendant is hot and wants to fulfill the rest of the fantasy.

Kingfish,

> Must of had the fish.
> >
>
> Too funny.
>

I once saw a captain and an FO at Boston's Logan airport grabbing lunch
at the Legal Seafood restaurant there. I was really tempted to walk up
and say: "Don't tell me you both had the fish!"

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"Steve Foley" > wrote in message
news:73Jvh.20802$Mx4.5904@trndny07...
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>>
>>> "Ever see a grown man naked?"
>>
>> Roger, Roger; what's our vector, Victor?
>>
>
> What can you make of this?
I can make a cap, or a broach, or a pterodactyl...

Aluckyguess wrote:
> "Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2007-01-30, Judah > wrote:
>>> Or will the FAA take action against him for operating an aircraft
>>> for which
>>> he is not properly rated?
>
> At this point who really cares about the FAA. The only thing
> important is if the flight attendant is hot and wants to fulfill the
> rest of the fantasy.

This brings up another point. If FAs are there primarily for emergencies and
not as flying wait staff then why don't the airlines train at least senior
FAs to serve as backup radio ops and a second pair of eyes/hands?

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Kingfish,
>
>> Must of had the fish.
>>>
>>
>> Too funny.
>>
>
> I once saw a captain and an FO at Boston's Logan airport grabbing
> lunch at the Legal Seafood restaurant there. I was really tempted to
> walk up and say: "Don't tell me you both had the fish!"

Surely you are kidding?

"Kingfish" > wrote in
oups.com:

> MX... Judah was obviously joking here...

Finally! Someone who understands me!

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
:

> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>> Kingfish,
>>
>>> Must of had the fish.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Too funny.
>>>
>>
>> I once saw a captain and an FO at Boston's Logan airport grabbing
>> lunch at the Legal Seafood restaurant there. I was really tempted to
>> walk up and say: "Don't tell me you both had the fish!"
>
> Surely you are kidding?

I think you mean,

"Shirley you can't be serious..."

Judah wrote:
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
> :
>
>> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>>> Kingfish,
>>>
>>>> Must of had the fish.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Too funny.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I once saw a captain and an FO at Boston's Logan airport grabbing
>>> lunch at the Legal Seafood restaurant there. I was really tempted to
>>> walk up and say: "Don't tell me you both had the fish!"
>>
>> Surely you are kidding?
>
> I think you mean,
>
> "Shirley you can't be serious..."

Surely I didn't.

And don't call me Shirley.

Jay Beckman writes:

> Just resist the temptation to pop your head into the cockpit and say:
>
> "Good Luck, we're all counting on you..."

Have you ever been kicked? In the head? By an iron boot?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Aluckyguess writes:

> At this point who really cares about the FAA. The only thing important is if
> the flight attendant is hot and wants to fulfill the rest of the fantasy.

I thought only a crew of two is required to fly that aircraft.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> This brings up another point. If FAs are there primarily for emergencies and
> not as flying wait staff then why don't the airlines train at least senior
> FAs to serve as backup radio ops and a second pair of eyes/hands?

Too many regulatory hurdles, I suspect.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> This brings up another point. If FAs are there primarily for
>> emergencies and not as flying wait staff then why don't the airlines
>> train at least senior FAs to serve as backup radio ops and a second
>> pair of eyes/hands?
>
> Too many regulatory hurdles, I suspect.

As opposed to getting a random passenger.

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> As opposed to getting a random passenger.

Exactly.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

In article >,
"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
> >> This brings up another point. If FAs are there primarily for
> >> emergencies and not as flying wait staff then why don't the airlines
> >> train at least senior FAs to serve as backup radio ops and a second
> >> pair of eyes/hands?
> >
> > Too many regulatory hurdles, I suspect.
>
> As opposed to getting a random passenger.


Not a random passenger, a certificated pilot. I would certainly
consider a certificated pilot--ANY certificated pilot--more qualified to
be on the flight deck in such a situation than a flight attendant who
did not hold a pilot certificate.



JKG

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Judah wrote:
>> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
>> :
> And don't call me Shirley.

Hold the mayo.

Kid, I ain't Jerome Abdul Jabar.

Bad day to stop sniffing glue.

The red curb is for unloading....

Please assume the crash position.

Roger.
"Huh?"

(paraphrased) He's high. He's too hot. He's left. Now he's low. What
an asshole.

The **** is really going to hit the fan. I used this when the light
twin with Japanese CFI and 2 Japanese students out of RHV crashed into
the raw sewage holding tank south of SJC a month ago. In this case, it
was 2 fans. (sorry to make a joke of it but it was hard to refuse)

Gerald

Jay Beckman wrote:
> "Good Luck, we're all counting on you..."

My CFI and CFII (the same person) said that line I think in EVERY one of
my 300+ approaches, landings and of course as part of the after landing
checklist. I now use it many times a day.

Gerald

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> This brings up another point. If FAs are there primarily for emergencies and
> not as flying wait staff then why don't the airlines train at least senior
> FAs to serve as backup radio ops and a second pair of eyes/hands?

Or why there is a mandatory retirement age for pilots yet none for FA's.
The previous #1 by seniority (no pun intended) at UA was 80+ years
old. Her name was Gladys IIRC. If someone mentioned her name, most of
the real frequent fliers (1K's on up) would recognize the name and knew
who you were talking about. She was forced to retire last year IIRC
when she couldn't open up the cabin door. No joke. Can you imagine
this woman jumping down a chute in a wheel chair. ?

The FAA should set a mandatory retirement age for FA's. And if it were
up to me, I'd make that age 32. ;-)

Gerald

G. Sylvester writes:

> Or why there is a mandatory retirement age for pilots yet none for FA's.

Pilots had a stronger union when the regulation was enacted.

> The previous #1 by seniority (no pun intended) at UA was 80+ years
> old. Her name was Gladys IIRC. If someone mentioned her name, most of
> the real frequent fliers (1K's on up) would recognize the name and knew
> who you were talking about. She was forced to retire last year IIRC
> when she couldn't open up the cabin door. No joke. Can you imagine
> this woman jumping down a chute in a wheel chair.

I can imagine younger people making fun of you when you reach that
age, if you do.

> The FAA should set a mandatory retirement age for FA's. And if it were
> up to me, I'd make that age 32.

Why?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Gig,

> Surely you are kidding?
>

I'm not. And don't call me Shirley ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jonathan Goodish wrote:
> In article >,
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
>>>> This brings up another point. If FAs are there primarily for
>>>> emergencies and not as flying wait staff then why don't the
>>>> airlines train at least senior FAs to serve as backup radio ops
>>>> and a second pair of eyes/hands?
>>>
>>> Too many regulatory hurdles, I suspect.
>>
>> As opposed to getting a random passenger.
>
>
> Not a random passenger, a certificated pilot. I would certainly
> consider a certificated pilot--ANY certificated pilot--more qualified
> to be on the flight deck in such a situation than a flight attendant
> who did not hold a pilot certificate.
>

An FA could easily be tought enough to help tune the radios and be an extra
set of eyes. It could be done 100% in the simulator.

G. Sylvester wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>> Judah wrote:
>>> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote in
>>> :
>> And don't call me Shirley.
>
> Hold the mayo.
>
> Kid, I ain't Jerome Abdul Jabar.
>
> Bad day to stop sniffing glue.
>
> The red curb is for unloading....
>
> Please assume the crash position.
>
> Roger.
> "Huh?"
>
> (paraphrased) He's high. He's too hot. He's left. Now he's low. What an
> asshole.
>
> The **** is really going to hit the fan. I used this when the light
> twin with Japanese CFI and 2 Japanese students out of RHV crashed into
> the raw sewage holding tank south of SJC a month ago. In this case,
> it was 2 fans. (sorry to make a joke of it but it was hard to refuse)
>
> Gerald

I picked the wrong day to stop smoking.

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>
> An FA could easily be tought enough to help tune the radios and be an extra
> set of eyes. It could be done 100% in the simulator.
>


Similar to "pinch hitter" courses.

B A R R Y wrote:
> Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
>>
>> An FA could easily be tought enough to help tune the radios and be
>> an extra set of eyes. It could be done 100% in the simulator.
>>
>
>
> Similar to "pinch hitter" courses.

Exactly.

> > Just resist the temptation to pop your head into the cockpit and say:
> >
> > "Good Luck, we're all counting on you..."
>
> I'll try my best to resist, should I ever be in that place! <g>
> --
If you succeed, then you're a better man than I.

Peter

On 2007-01-30, Kingfish > wrote:
> Too funny. Someone said just that on the USA Today site on this same
> topic... And got chewed out for it too... (some folks just have no
> SOH) Anytime you can work in a reference to the movie "Airplane" it
> can't be a bad thing...

If you like Airplane, check out "Zero Hour", the 1950s movie that
Airplane is a parody of. It's meant to be serious, but to any pilot it's
almost as funny as Airplane (it's so bad that it's good). Jay should
show it at one of his movie nights.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

> > Or why there is a mandatory retirement age for pilots yet none for FA's.
>
> Pilots had a stronger union when the regulation was enacted.
>
> > The previous #1 by seniority (no pun intended) at UA was 80+ years
> > old. Her name was Gladys IIRC. If someone mentioned her name, most of
> > the real frequent fliers (1K's on up) would recognize the name and knew
> > who you were talking about. She was forced to retire last year IIRC
> > when she couldn't open up the cabin door. No joke. Can you imagine
> > this woman jumping down a chute in a wheel chair.
>
> I can imagine younger people making fun of you when you reach that
> age, if you do.
>
> > The FAA should set a mandatory retirement age for FA's. And if it were
> > up to me, I'd make that age 32.
>
> Why?
>
Ok, you're right. He's wrong. Should be 29!

Peter ;-))))

>
> Finally! Someone who understands me!

The unfortunate couse notwithstanding, this has been a droll thread!

Peter

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in news:p7awh.11724$qt.6521
@bignews5.bellsouth.net:

> The unfortunate couse notwithstanding, this has been a droll thread!

It's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt.

BTW: Did you mean unfortunate cause or unfortunate course? Or am I missing
something?

> > The unfortunate couse notwithstanding, this has been a droll thread!
>
> It's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt.
>
> BTW: Did you mean unfortunate cause or unfortunate course? Or am I missing
> something?

I meant cause, but my fingers can't spell.

"Peter Dohm" > wrote in news:cOlwh.35999$Ts.14386
@bignews6.bellsouth.net:

>> > The unfortunate couse notwithstanding, this has been a droll thread!
>>
>> It's all fun and games until somebody gets hurt.
>>
>> BTW: Did you mean unfortunate cause or unfortunate course? Or am I missing
>> something?
>
> I meant cause, but my fingers can't spell.

OK - because it made sense either way. :)

On Jan 30, 7:51 pm, Jonathan Goodish > wrote:
> In article >,
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> > >> This brings up another point. If FAs are there primarily for
> > >> emergencies and not as flying wait staff then why don't the airlines
> > >> train at least senior FAs to serve as backup radio ops and a second
> > >> pair of eyes/hands?

My airline tried to do something like this back in the late 90s, by
allowing the A line to ride the jumpseat during take off and landing,
but 9/11 changed that program in a hurry.
>

>
> > As opposed to getting a random passenger.
>
> Not a random passenger, a certificated pilot. I would certainly
> consider a certificated pilot--ANY certificated pilot--more qualified to
> be on the flight deck in such a situation than a flight attendant who
> did not hold a pilot certificate.

One thing to consider here is that flight attendants see what goes on
day in and day out for years.Many of them know ALOT about flying from
watching us do checklists,inflight visits to the cockpit, and on
ocasion getting to fly on deadhead or ferry flights.
I would say that most GA pilots would probably be overwelmed on thier
first time in the seat and might not be as helpfull as a person who
has seen this stuff day in and day out for years.
>
> JKG
KM