Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
more than that...


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-singapore-airlines-airbus-a380-pilots-should-be-paid-more.html

Kingfish wrote:
> Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
> more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
> seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
> is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
> base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
> allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
> more than that...
>
>
> http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-
> singapore-airlines-airbus-a380-pilots-should-be-paid-more.html

SWA captains don't live in Singapore.

On May 25, 10:39 am, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net> wrote:
> Kingfish wrote:
> > Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> > Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
> > more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
> > seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
> > is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
> > base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
> > allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
> > more than that...
>
> >http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-
> > singapore-airlines-airbus-a380-pilots-should-be-paid-more.html
>
> SWA captains don't live in Singapore.

Of course. The commute would be hell...

In a previous article, Kingfish > said:
>Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
>Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
>more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
>seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
>is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly

I dunno - a 380 or 747 captain spends most of his flying time on autopilot
up in the flight levels. They probably get as many approaches and
landings in a month as your average Dash-8 or Beech 1900 pilot gets in a
day. In a world that valued skill, you'd have the guys fresh out of
school flying the 380s, and when they got good enough they'd fly commuter
airlines until they got *really* skilled, then they'd fly Aztecs doing
freight dogging.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"The aircraft limits are only there in case there is another flight by
that particular aircraft. If subsequent flights do not appear likely,
there are no limits."

Kingfish wrote:
> Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
> more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
> seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
> is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
> base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
> allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
> more than that...
>
>
> http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-singapore-airlines-airbus-a380-pilots-should-be-paid-more.html
>
Pay is always based on the location of the job. Software engineers in
the US make 75K but in Bangalore they make 5K. Why would it be
different for pilots?

On May 25, 10:27 am, Kingfish > wrote:
> Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
> more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
> seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
> is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
> base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
> allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
> more than that...
>
> http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-si...


Do bigger airplanes require more skill to fly? The Wright Flyer weighs
only 600 lbs but most pilots don't have the skill to fly it.

Hummer drivers must be smarter than Geo Metro drivers.

On May 25, 8:22 am, John Theune > wrote:
> Kingfish wrote:
> > Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> > Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
> > more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
> > seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
> > is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
> > base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
> > allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
> > more than that...
>
> >http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-si...
>
> Pay is always based on the location of the job. Software engineers in
> the US make 75K but in Bangalore they make 5K. Why would it be
> different for pilots?

Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
saleries don't generate a lot of response. BTW: Saleries in India are
rising very fast. Our top engineers in India will make almost the same
as a top engineer in the U.S. India has a lot of talent (i.e a lot of
people coming out of the universities) so its attractive to be over
there to have a large pool to hire from, but the days of cost savings
are pretty much over. The new hot spot for hiring programmers is the
old Soviet block. We do have some people in China but the language
barrier is too great.

-Robert

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> I dunno - a 380 or 747 captain spends most of his flying time on autopilot
> up in the flight levels. They probably get as many approaches and
> landings in a month as your average Dash-8 or Beech 1900 pilot gets in a
> day. In a world that valued skill, you'd have the guys fresh out of
> school flying the 380s, and when they got good enough they'd fly commuter
> airlines until they got *really* skilled, then they'd fly Aztecs doing
> freight dogging.


As a former Aztec flying freight dog, I thank you for your kind comment.
There's a lot of weather between the surface and 8,000 feet.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

On May 25, 11:24 am, Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
> On May 25, 10:27 am, Kingfish > wrote:
>
> > Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> > Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
> > more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
> > seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
> > is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
> > base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
> > allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
> > more than that...
>
> >http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-si...
>
> Do bigger airplanes require more skill to fly? The Wright Flyer weighs
> only 600 lbs but most pilots don't have the skill to fly it.
>
> Hummer drivers must be smarter than Geo Metro drivers.

I don't think skill ever entered the equation (assumed sarcasm
notwithstanding) - AFAIK pilot pay has been based on either acft
weight or # of seats. Paul T's statement about widebody captains
spending much of their time in the flight levels on AP can be said of
pretty much any airline jet pilot, although it may be tougher to stay
proficient considering the number of approaches they fly in a month
compared to a Dash or ATR pilot. John T's point was valid in that I'm
attributing US pilot pay standards to that of Singapore where there's
clearly a substantial difference. Kinda makes me wonder what SIA pays
their 737/A320 captains...

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
> trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
> saleries don't generate a lot of response.

Are these telecommuting positions?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 25, 2:46 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
> > Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
> > trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
> > saleries don't generate a lot of response.
>
> Are these telecommuting positions?
>


The odds of you getting hired by anyone who has seen you post on
usenet are long indeed...

Gary writes:

> The odds of you getting hired by anyone who has seen you post on
> usenet are long indeed...

I didn't say anything about me.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Kingfish > wrote in
oups.com:

> Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380
> captains more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and
> has more seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course
> the airline is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see
> their monthly base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a
> 747? Even allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737
> captains make a lot more than that...

$120,000(Singapore) = $78,555(US)

--

In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>Robert M. Gary writes:
>> Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
>> trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
>> saleries don't generate a lot of response.
>
>Are these telecommuting positions?

The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
Don't you just hate them? Don't you just wanna break their ribs,
cut their backs open and pull their lungs out from behind?
-- Ina Faye-Lund, on script kiddies

On May 25, 3:17 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>
> >Robert M. Gary writes:
> >> Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
> >> trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
> >> saleries don't generate a lot of response.
>
> >Are these telecommuting positions?
>
> The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
large amount of sales come from overseas its hard to explain to a
foreign country or company why they should buy your product if you
don't spend any money in their country (i.e. "why should I buy your
product if you won't hire anyone from my country")? Its the same
reason Boeing subs out the 777 all over the world, those country are
customers too.
BTW: The cost savings in India for programmers is all but totally
gone. China will always have a small roll because of the extream
language difference. Eastern Europe is probably going to see a large
increase in technology hiring in the near term.

-Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
software

On May 25, 4:34 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On May 25, 3:17 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>
> > In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>
> > >Robert M. Gary writes:
> > >> Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
> > >> trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
> > >> saleries don't generate a lot of response.
>
> > >Are these telecommuting positions?
>
> > The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> > telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> > telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.
>
> The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
> large amount of sales come from overseas its hard to explain to a
> foreign country or company why they should buy your product if you
> don't spend any money in their country (i.e. "why should I buy your
> product if you won't hire anyone from my country")? Its the same
> reason Boeing subs out the 777 all over the world, those country are
> customers too.
> BTW: The cost savings in India for programmers is all but totally
> gone. China will always have a small roll because of the extream
> language difference. Eastern Europe is probably going to see a large
> increase in technology hiring in the near term.
>
> -Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
> software

Robert,

Let me guess... you are in a high-cost large city job market, right?

I am an Electrical Engineer with 20 years of design experience in both
hardware and software, and in Idaho I make $80K a year, which is
pretty typical. Not many 6 figure salaries here. Plus, HP has been
laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
market for an engineering position. Not an employees market here! I
wish it was!

On 25 May 2007 12:36:27 -0700, Gary > wrote:

>
>The odds of you getting hired by anyone who has seen you post on
>usenet are long indeed...

What if he's applying for "The Argument Room"?

=8^0

Paul Tomblin writes:

> The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.

That's not a problem for the employer; that is presumably the whole idea. If
the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
for now.

It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
places like India.

There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On 25 May 2007 08:24:29 -0700, Andrew Sarangan >
wrote:
>
>Do bigger airplanes require more skill to fly?


Responsibility... Just like a sea captain.

Look at it this way:

I'm f'n around @ OXC, and I pull out in front of Kingfish, who's on
short final in the Pilatus. A mess, local news, sad families, yadda,
yadda, yadda...

The same happens with 747's and you get this:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_disaster>

Kabeesh?

BTW, I ALWAYS look both ways before entering a runway, especially if I
know Kingfish is coming in...

And FWIW, one of my best friend's dad is a retired PanAm B747 captain
who has owned light aircraft all his life, and he says "Yes, the 747
is more difficult to fly".

writes:

> Plus, HP has been
> laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
> market for an engineering position.

HP is laying off people everywhere. The decline at HP started when it become
a publicly-held company with anonymous stockholders. Every company that
changes owners in that way goes down the same path.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

B A R R Y writes:

> Responsibility... Just like a sea captain.

Then why aren't the requirements for sea captains just as stringent, and the
pay the same? The captain of an ocean liner has ten times as many people to
worry about as the captain of an airliner.

> And FWIW, one of my best friend's dad is a retired PanAm B747 captain
> who has owned light aircraft all his life, and he says "Yes, the 747
> is more difficult to fly".

What else would you expect a retired 747 captain to say?

Airliners _were_ difficult to fly, in the days when they had no automation.
But times have changed. And Pan Am went out of business long ago.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> Plus, HP has been
>> laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
>> market for an engineering position.
>
> HP is laying off people everywhere. The decline at HP started when it
> become
> a publicly-held company with anonymous stockholders. Every company that
> changes owners in that way goes down the same path.
>

I guess that is why Google is doing so poorly :-)

Danny Deger

On May 26, 12:32 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Paul Tomblin writes:
> > The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> > telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> > telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.
>
> That's not a problem for the employer;


How ould you know you racist fjukkwit?

You don't employ, you don't fly and you don't think.


Bertie

that is presumably the whole idea. If
> the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
> up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
> way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
> for now.
>
> It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
> differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
> costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
> again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
> places like India.
>
> There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
> the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
> than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
> turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
> impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
> training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 26, 12:38 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> B A R R Y writes:
>
> > Responsibility... Just like a sea captain.
>
> Then why aren't the requirements for sea captains just as stringent, and the
> pay the same? The captain of an ocean liner has ten times as many people to
> worry about as the captain of an airliner.
>
> > And FWIW, one of my best friend's dad is a retired PanAm B747 captain
> > who has owned light aircraft all his life, and he says "Yes, the 747
> > is more difficult to fly".
>
> What else would you expect a retired 747 captain to say?
>
> Airliners _were_ difficult to fly, in the days when they had no automation.


How would you know?

And , BTW, pilots still fly airliners which are substantially the same
as they were 50 years ago.


IOW you are talking stroight out of your as, as usual. ##



Bertie

> But times have changed. And Pan Am went out of business long ago.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 25, 9:43 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Gary writes:
> > The odds of you getting hired by anyone who has seen you post on
> > usenet are long indeed...
>
> I didn't say anything about me.

Yes, you did, fjukkwit


Bertie
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 26, 12:34 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> writes:
> > Plus, HP has been
> > laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
> > market for an engineering position.
>
> HP is laying off people everywhere. The decline at HP started when it become
> a publicly-held company with anonymous stockholders. Every company that
> changes owners in that way goes down the same path.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.




So what,fjukktard?


Bertie

Maybe Bertie..

But, by whatever means, he is correct....

Major prob for companies "outsourcing offshore " at this time...

D

On 25 May 2007 16:56:34 -0700, Bertie the Bunyip
> wrote:

>On May 26, 12:32 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
>> Paul Tomblin writes:
>> > The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
>> > telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
>> > telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.
>>
>> That's not a problem for the employer;
>
>
>How ould you know you racist fjukkwit?
>
>You don't employ, you don't fly and you don't think.
>
>
>Bertie
>
>that is presumably the whole idea. If
>> the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
>> up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
>> way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
>> for now.
>>
>> It's all temporary, though. It's possible to temporarily take advantage of
>> differences in cost of living, but the mere fact of doing so changes those
>> costs of living and the differences among them, and eventually you are once
>> again paying the same for workers everywhere. This is already happening in
>> places like India.
>>
>> There are other problems with chasing the lowest possible wages; often this is
>> the one and only advantage to outsourcing abroad, and it turns out to be more
>> than negated by other disadvantages of this type of hiring. For example, the
>> turnover of employees is often several hunded percent per year, and it's
>> impossible to train them because they don't stay long enough to amortize the
>> training and it's too costly to train replacements every 90 days.
>>
>> --
>> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.
>

On May 25, 4:27 pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
> On 25 May 2007 12:36:27 -0700, Gary > wrote:
>
>
>
> >The odds of you getting hired by anyone who has seen you post on
> >usenet are long indeed...
>
> What if he's applying for "The Argument Room"?
>
> =8^0

No this is a Abuse, Argument is down the hall.

On May 25, 4:08 pm, wrote:
> On May 25, 4:34 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 25, 3:17 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>
> > > In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>
> > > >Robert M. Gary writes:
> > > >> Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
> > > >> trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
> > > >> saleries don't generate a lot of response.
>
> > > >Are these telecommuting positions?
>
> > > The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> > > telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> > > telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.
>
> > The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> > software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> > large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> > employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> > school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> > with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
> > large amount of sales come from overseas its hard to explain to a
> > foreign country or company why they should buy your product if you
> > don't spend any money in their country (i.e. "why should I buy your
> > product if you won't hire anyone from my country")? Its the same
> > reason Boeing subs out the 777 all over the world, those country are
> > customers too.
> > BTW: The cost savings in India for programmers is all but totally
> > gone. China will always have a small roll because of the extream
> > language difference. Eastern Europe is probably going to see a large
> > increase in technology hiring in the near term.
>
> > -Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
> > software
>
> Robert,
>
> Let me guess... you are in a high-cost large city job market, right?

Probably middle tier. We're near Sacramento.

> I am an Electrical Engineer with 20 years of design experience in both
> hardware and software, and in Idaho I make $80K a year,

Well, if you account for all the state taxes here (income, high sales,
$5000/yr average home property tax, sales/use tax on airplanes, etc)
you probably are making a California equiv of $100K.

> Plus, HP has been
> laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
> market for an engineering position.

Yea, HP is now where you want to be, especially if you are in a one
employeer town. However, the best money has always been at smaller,
riskier companies. You always take a salery cut to work at a more
"stable" ;) company like IBM, HP, etc.

-robert

On May 25, 4:32 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Paul Tomblin writes:
> > The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> > telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> > telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.
>
> That's not a problem for the employer; that is presumably the whole idea. If
> the employer has experience with workers in these countries, either it has set
> up development centers in those countries or it has telecommuting. Either
> way, it should be possible to find workers at much less than $75K, at least
> for now.

Sadly I do have experience with employees in France. There is no way I
would hire a programmer there. We do hire field guys there when the
need is extream and our UK guys can't hold up the need. The problem is
that if you hire someone in France when sales are going up, you can't
let them go when sales go down. It takes us about 12 months to lay
someone off in France (usually you have to send them away with a
massive pot of cash to agree to leave early). We even had an executive
in France that was right out pocking sales money. We couldn't fire him
for more than 6 months. We actually had to send letters to our
customers and tell them that, although he was still an employee, he
was not authorized to enter any agreements.

-Robert

On May 25, 7:25 pm, Dave > wrote:
> Maybe Bertie..
>
> But, by whatever means, he is correct....
>
> Major prob for companies "outsourcing offshore " at this time...

Works both ways. I actually have a job offer in hand as we speak for a
6 figure job working near Sacramento for an Indian company. Those damn
Americans keep taking all the Indian jobs! ;) I still haven't decided
if I'll take it but I've already begun dumping stock options in my
current company so I guess that says something.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Sadly I do have experience with employees in France.

France is not a Third-World outsourcing country. There isn't really any
advantage to hiring anyone in Western Europe, but France is one of the worst
choices.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

On May 25, 8:50 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On May 25, 4:08 pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 25, 4:34 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > > On May 25, 3:17 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>
> > > > In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>
> > > > >Robert M. Gary writes:
> > > > >> Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
> > > > >> trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
> > > > >> saleries don't generate a lot of response.
>
> > > > >Are these telecommuting positions?
>
> > > > The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> > > > telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> > > > telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.
>
> > > The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> > > software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> > > large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> > > employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> > > school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> > > with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
> > > large amount of sales come from overseas its hard to explain to a
> > > foreign country or company why they should buy your product if you
> > > don't spend any money in their country (i.e. "why should I buy your
> > > product if you won't hire anyone from my country")? Its the same
> > > reason Boeing subs out the 777 all over the world, those country are
> > > customers too.
> > > BTW: The cost savings in India for programmers is all but totally
> > > gone. China will always have a small roll because of the extream
> > > language difference. Eastern Europe is probably going to see a large
> > > increase in technology hiring in the near term.
>
> > > -Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
> > > software
>
> > Robert,
>
> > Let me guess... you are in a high-cost large city job market, right?
>
> Probably middle tier. We're near Sacramento.
>
> > I am an Electrical Engineer with 20 years of design experience in both
> > hardware and software, and in Idaho I make $80K a year,
>
> Well, if you account for all the state taxes here (income, high sales,
> $5000/yr average home property tax, sales/use tax on airplanes, etc)
> you probably are making a California equiv of $100K.
>
> > Plus, HP has been
> > laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
> > market for an engineering position.
>
> Yea, HP is now where you want to be, especially if you are in a one
> employeer town. However, the best money has always been at smaller,
> riskier companies. You always take a salery cut to work at a more
> "stable" ;) company like IBM, HP, etc.
>
> -robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Robert,

I don't work for HP anymore, I work for a small privately owned
company... HP is continuing to cut people here locally as they send
the R&D to Shanghai and Singapore. Not much future at HP in the USA.

Dean

In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
>software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
>large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
>employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
>school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
>with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a

Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.

I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
years there won't be a single job left in the US.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Harry very carefully read the manual - four times - because Snape would
cut off his breathing privs if he asked him a question that the manual
could answer..." -- Harry Potter and the Book Of The BOFH

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message ...
> In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>>The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
>>software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
>>large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
>>employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
>>school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
>>with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
>
> Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
> as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
> off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
> US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.
>
> I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
> years there won't be a single job left in the US.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
> "Harry very carefully read the manual - four times - because Snape would
> cut off his breathing privs if he asked him a question that the manual
> could answer..." -- Harry Potter and the Book Of The BOFH

That is part of the problem. Exactly how many years is 'a few?' Not even one single job left?

If you want things to change, change them! It seems like so many in gov't and media want to continue to divide and
conquer us. Send the kids to college, let them be engineers, and they have a very good chance that they will create
something new. The key is american creativity giving us the edge...

In article . com>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> Well, if you account for all the state taxes here (income, high sales,
> $5000/yr average home property tax, sales/use tax on airplanes, etc)
> you probably are making a California equiv of $100K.

That description sounds just like Ohio.

In article >,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

> Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
> as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
> off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
> US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.

Ah, the sticky wicket!
Who gets to define the term "a living wage"?

writes:

> On May 25, 8:50 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> > On May 25, 4:08 pm, wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On May 25, 4:34 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> >
> > > > On May 25, 3:17 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> >
> > > > > In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
> >
> > > > > >Robert M. Gary writes:
> > > > > >> Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
> > > > > >> trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
> > > > > >> saleries don't generate a lot of response.
> >
> > > > > >Are these telecommuting positions?
> >
> > > > > The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> > > > > telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> > > > > telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.
> >
> > > > The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> > > > software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> > > > large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> > > > employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> > > > school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> > > > with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
> > > > large amount of sales come from overseas its hard to explain to a
> > > > foreign country or company why they should buy your product if you
> > > > don't spend any money in their country (i.e. "why should I buy your
> > > > product if you won't hire anyone from my country")? Its the same
> > > > reason Boeing subs out the 777 all over the world, those country are
> > > > customers too.
> > > > BTW: The cost savings in India for programmers is all but totally
> > > > gone. China will always have a small roll because of the extream
> > > > language difference. Eastern Europe is probably going to see a large
> > > > increase in technology hiring in the near term.
> >
> > > > -Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
> > > > software
> >
> > > Robert,
> >
> > > Let me guess... you are in a high-cost large city job market, right?
> >
> > Probably middle tier. We're near Sacramento.
> >
> > > I am an Electrical Engineer with 20 years of design experience in both
> > > hardware and software, and in Idaho I make $80K a year,
> >
> > Well, if you account for all the state taxes here (income, high sales,
> > $5000/yr average home property tax, sales/use tax on airplanes, etc)
> > you probably are making a California equiv of $100K.
> >
> > > Plus, HP has been
> > > laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
> > > market for an engineering position.
> >
> > Yea, HP is now where you want to be, especially if you are in a one
> > employeer town. However, the best money has always been at smaller,
> > riskier companies. You always take a salery cut to work at a more
> > "stable" ;) company like IBM, HP, etc.
> >
> > -robert- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Robert,
>
> I don't work for HP anymore, I work for a small privately owned
> company... HP is continuing to cut people here locally as they send
> the R&D to Shanghai and Singapore. Not much future at HP in the USA.
>
> Dean

writes:

> I don't work for HP anymore, I work for a small privately owned
> company... HP is continuing to cut people here locally as they send
> the R&D to Shanghai and Singapore. Not much future at HP in the USA.

Not much future for HP, actually.

Blueskies writes:

> That is part of the problem. Exactly how many years is 'a few?'

Probably twenty years or so.

> Not even one single job left?

There will always be a few jobs, but practically speaking there may not be
anything significant left. How many steelworking jobs are there in the United
States now?

> If you want things to change, change them! It seems like so many in
> gov't and media want to continue to divide and conquer us.

Most people find it easier to obey than to decide or lead. All democracies
evolve in this direction.

> Send the kids to college, let them be engineers, and they have a
> very good chance that they will create something new.

And if they are very good, they may even be able to emigrate to India and get
a good job.

> The key is american creativity giving us the edge...

Americans don't have any kind of monopoly on creativity. In fact, they don't
have any more than anyone else does. They can accept this now and act in
consequence, or have the reality forced on them by circumstances in the
future.

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> Plus, HP has been
>> laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
>> market for an engineering position.
>
> HP is laying off people everywhere. The decline at HP started when it
> become
> a publicly-held company with anonymous stockholders. Every company that
> changes owners in that way goes down the same path.
>

Oh, ok. So now you're an economist.

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>B A R R Y writes:
>
>> Responsibility... Just like a sea captain.
>
> Then why aren't the requirements for sea captains just as stringent, and
> the
> pay the same? The captain of an ocean liner has ten times as many people
> to
> worry about as the captain of an airliner.
>
>> And FWIW, one of my best friend's dad is a retired PanAm B747 captain
>> who has owned light aircraft all his life, and he says "Yes, the 747
>> is more difficult to fly".
>
> What else would you expect a retired 747 captain to say?
>
> Airliners _were_ difficult to fly, in the days when they had no
> automation.
> But times have changed. And Pan Am went out of business long ago.
>

What else would we expect you to say, you clueless twit.

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> I don't work for HP anymore, I work for a small privately owned
>> company... HP is continuing to cut people here locally as they send
>> the R&D to Shanghai and Singapore. Not much future at HP in the USA.
>
> Not much future for HP, actually.

Clueless drivel.

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...

Snip - the usual trolling babble.

Why don't you wait until you can learn to participate in a simple public
forum, before you take on world economics.

(Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>>The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
>>software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
>>large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
>>employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
>>school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
>>with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
>
> Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
> as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
> off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
> US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.

My experience may or may not be atypical, but I work from home (rural
Oregon) and have so far not had any problems getting as much work as I want
or need. However, I may not be typical because I:

1) Work mostly fixed-bid software development with payment due only if the
customer accepts the final deliverable (i.e. I take on most of the risk). I
do not require nor expect fully fleshed out requirements (one of the few
things 30+ years of experience should have taught me is anticipating the
probably extent that the scope may change).

2) Most of my clients have been acquired through past associations and
referrals. (Much of my work followed me up from the San Fransico bay area
where we moved from. My location puts me in the same time zone, language,
and culture as most of my clients. I also have some idea of the amount of
scope creep they engage in, so maybe I will yet be burned by completely new
clients.)

3) Try to maintain a professional customer service mindset. So, for
example, even though I accept much of the risk, I do not inflate bids to
cover alleged risk (haven't been burned yet by any clients). I also try to
go out of my way to deliver a little extra something to take advantage of
the psychological concept of reciprocity.

4) Maintain the mindset that I am running a business that delivers custom
crafted products, not a coder or employee for hourly hire.

Most of the competition balks at point (1). Not too many programmers are
willing (or can afford) to work months on a project before delivering it
and then wait another month after invoicing to get paid.

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On May 25, 4:27 pm, B A R R Y > wrote:
>> On 25 May 2007 12:36:27 -0700, Gary > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >The odds of you getting hired by anyone who has seen you post on
>> >usenet are long indeed...
>>
>> What if he's applying for "The Argument Room"?
>>
>> =8^0
>
> No this is a Abuse, Argument is down the hall.
>
Ah Monty Python , so passé these days

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Yea, HP is now where you want to be, especially if you are in a one
> employeer town. However, the best money has always been at smaller,
> riskier companies. You always take a salery cut to work at a more
> "stable" ;) company like IBM, HP, etc.

not always true actually; what you get in smaller, riskier, newer
companies, is more equity, which 99+% of the time ends up not
being worth the paper it is printed on, but with a lower base
pay, really lousy overall package (fly-by-night health insurance if
any, no 401k, etc.) and the privilege of working twice/thrice/more as
many hours... I grant you, you might get lucky, but the odds aren't
good.

--Sylvain

Jim Logajan wrote:

> Most of the competition balks at point (1). Not too many programmers are
> willing (or can afford) to work months on a project before delivering it
> and then wait another month after invoicing to get paid.

well, having done it once or twice without ever seeing the color of the
money, I'd say that balking at point (1) is not totally unreasonable :-)

--Sylvain

B A R R Y wrote:
> Responsibility... Just like a sea captain.

if you define responsibility by, say, the number of
casualties you might get per goofs, then why are physicians
(who can kill/maim only one person at a time) paid more than
engineers (who can goof really big, and repeatedly, unlike
airline pilots); we should be on the very top of the pay
scale! :-)

--Sylvain

Sylvain writes:

> if you define responsibility by, say, the number of
> casualties you might get per goofs, then why are physicians
> (who can kill/maim only one person at a time) paid more than
> engineers (who can goof really big, and repeatedly, unlike
> airline pilots); we should be on the very top of the pay
> scale! :-)

Physicians are also less heavily regulated than airline pilots and some
engineers, which is also rather curious.

In a previous article, Jim Logajan > said:
>1) Work mostly fixed-bid software development with payment due only if the
>customer accepts the final deliverable (i.e. I take on most of the risk). I
>do not require nor expect fully fleshed out requirements (one of the few
>things 30+ years of experience should have taught me is anticipating the
>probably extent that the scope may change).

In my brief experience trying this sort of thing, this is a ticket to
spending the rest of your life following a constantly changing target as
the user is never satisfied and will never sign off until they are
satisfied.

You must have been very lucky to get reasonable customers.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
Frankly, your argument wouldn't float were the sea composed of
mercury.
-- Biff

(Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> In a previous article, Jim Logajan > said:
>>1) Work mostly fixed-bid software development with payment due only if
>>the customer accepts the final deliverable (i.e. I take on most of the
>>risk). I do not require nor expect fully fleshed out requirements (one
>>of the few things 30+ years of experience should have taught me is
>>anticipating the probably extent that the scope may change).
>
> In my brief experience trying this sort of thing, this is a ticket to
> spending the rest of your life following a constantly changing target
> as the user is never satisfied and will never sign off until they are
> satisfied.

The main reason I think my customers (at least) don't go into endless
target changing is because the projects address realworld problems they are
having that can't be put off indefinitely.

> You must have been very lucky to get reasonable customers.

Very probable - but it may also be the nature of the kinds of projects I've
been doing and my client's underlying motivation. I believe in all the
cases so far my clients had prospects themselves who were interested in new
features or had existing customers who had feature enhancement requests. So
they had strong motivation not to dink around. I suppose that gives some
idea of the kind of work that fixed-bid is best used on.

(Generally a client who constantly changes the target will quickly become a
non-client in short order.)

Sylvain > wrote:
> Jim Logajan wrote:
>
>> Most of the competition balks at point (1). Not too many programmers are
>> willing (or can afford) to work months on a project before delivering it
>> and then wait another month after invoicing to get paid.
>
> well, having done it once or twice without ever seeing the color of the
> money, I'd say that balking at point (1) is not totally unreasonable :-)

Alas, all too often true. On the other hand, such sad stories is why I
don't worry about much competition from others using that business model.
;-)

In article >,
Jim Logajan > wrote:

> (Generally a client who constantly changes the target will quickly become a
> non-client in short order.)

Except for the federal government. That is business as normal.

Jim Logajan writes:

> Very probable - but it may also be the nature of the kinds of projects I've
> been doing and my client's underlying motivation.

If you can restrict yourself to projects suitable for this philosophy, great.
The problem is that there are still a lot of projects that have to be done and
do not conform to this philosophy.

> Generally a client who constantly changes the target will quickly become a
> non-client in short order.

Not for people billing by the hour. A lot of consulting firms love such
clients.

On May 26, 5:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>
> >The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> >software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> >large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> >employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> >school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> >with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
>
> Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
> as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
> off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
> US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.
>
> I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
> years there won't be a single job left in the US.
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin /
> "Harry very carefully read the manual - four times - because Snape would
> cut off his breathing privs if he asked him a question that the manual
> could answer..." -- Harry Potter and the Book Of The BOFH

Hi Paul,

Yes, I told my nephew not to become a Mechanical Engineer for the same
reason. He is going into business and Lanscape Architecture instead.
They can't offshore that.

One of the reasons that engineers are disappearing from the
marketplace is because a lot of them are getting sick of the lack of
job stability, declining pay, and generally poor workplace
environments that have come into being in recent years and have left
the profession for other vocations. I know of several that did that
here in Idaho.

Dean

writes:

> Yes, I told my nephew not to become a Mechanical Engineer for the same
> reason. He is going into business and Lanscape Architecture instead.
> They can't offshore that.

Why not?

> One of the reasons that engineers are disappearing from the
> marketplace is because a lot of them are getting sick of the lack of
> job stability, declining pay, and generally poor workplace
> environments that have come into being in recent years and have left
> the profession for other vocations. I know of several that did that
> here in Idaho.

What fields did they go into?

On Sat, 26 May 2007 16:27:58 -0700, Sylvain > wrote:

>B A R R Y wrote:
>> Responsibility... Just like a sea captain.
>
>if you define responsibility by, say, the number of
>casualties you might get per goofs, then why are physicians
>(who can kill/maim only one person at a time) paid more than
>engineers (who can goof really big, and repeatedly, unlike
>airline pilots); we should be on the very top of the pay
>scale! :-)

A colleague of mine is a retired commander of nuclear powered
ballistic missile submarines. What would he be worth? <G>

I was using sea captains as a comparison, as they get additional
ratings and pay based on displacement tonnage. For instance, a super
tanker captain is usually better paid than a 100' whale watch boat
captain, even though the tanker will have less people aboard.

> wrote:

> One of the reasons that engineers are disappearing from the
> marketplace is because a lot of them are getting sick of the lack of
> job stability, declining pay, and generally poor workplace
> environments that have come into being in recent years and have left
> the profession for other vocations. I know of several that did that
> here in Idaho.

In my business (automatic temperature control systems), technicians make more
than the mechanical engineers who design the HVAC systems we control.

For a few engineers, the ceiling is higher, especially if they become
partners in large firms. Still, for the most part, being a controls
technician-which does not require a 4-year degree-is a better job.

--
Dan

"The future has actually been here for a while, it's just not readily
available to everyone."
- some guy at MIT

In article >,
"Dan Luke" > wrote:

> In my business (automatic temperature control systems), technicians make more
> than the mechanical engineers who design the HVAC systems we control.

ME's might make more if management of companies with large buildings were
willing to pay the price for an HVAC system that could actually correctly keep
the temperature comfortable, especially during seasonal changes. Instead
they just shrug and go back to their nice offices.

(:>-{

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

B A R R Y writes:

> I was using sea captains as a comparison, as they get additional
> ratings and pay based on displacement tonnage. For instance, a super
> tanker captain is usually better paid than a 100' whale watch boat
> captain, even though the tanker will have less people aboard.

The tanker is worth more money, and money is more important than people.

"Bob Noel" wrote:

>> In my business (automatic temperature control systems), technicians make
>> more
>> than the mechanical engineers who design the HVAC systems we control.
>
> ME's might make more if management of companies with large buildings were
> willing to pay the price for an HVAC system that could actually correctly
> keep
> the temperature comfortable, especially during seasonal changes. Instead
> they just shrug and go back to their nice offices.

When a project is in the design phase and costs are being considered, owners
are all for cutting "frills" in the HVAC system design.

After the building is occupied and people are complaining about comfort
problems, the poor engineer and the control guy get dragged into a
come-to-Jesus meeting and asked why their systems don't work.

....and don't even get me started about owners skimping on maintenance.

--
Dan

"Almost all the matter that came out of the Big Bang was two specific sorts;
hydrogen, and stupidity."

-Robert Carnegie in talk.origins

> wrote in message oups.com...
> On May 26, 5:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>> In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>>
>> >The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
>> >software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
>> >large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
>> >employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
>> >school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
>> >with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
>>
>> Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
>> as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
>> off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
>> US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.
>>
>> I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
>> years there won't be a single job left in the US.
>>
>> --
>> Paul Tomblin /
>> "Harry very carefully read the manual - four times - because Snape would
>> cut off his breathing privs if he asked him a question that the manual
>> could answer..." -- Harry Potter and the Book Of The BOFH
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Yes, I told my nephew not to become a Mechanical Engineer for the same
> reason. He is going into business and Lanscape Architecture instead.
> They can't offshore that.
>
> One of the reasons that engineers are disappearing from the
> marketplace is because a lot of them are getting sick of the lack of
> job stability, declining pay, and generally poor workplace
> environments that have come into being in recent years and have left
> the profession for other vocations. I know of several that did that
> here in Idaho.
>
> Dean
>

Good engineers will hold good jobs. Sometimes knowledge is considered a commodity, so those that conform go offshore. It
is creativity that makes one valuable. If the creativity manufacturing base is offloaded, there will be no need for
landscape architecture because no-one will be able to buy the garden...

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Logajan writes:
>
> If you can restrict yourself to projects suitable for this philosophy,
> great.
> The problem is that there are still a lot of projects that have to be done
> and
> do not conform to this philosophy.
>
>
> Not for people billing by the hour. A lot of consulting firms love such
> clients.

What would an unemployed moron like you know about it.

On Fri, 25 May 2007 15:22:00 GMT, John Theune >
wrote:

>Kingfish wrote:
>> Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
>> Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
>> more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
>> seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
>> is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
>> base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
>> allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
>> more than that...
>>
>>
>> http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-singapore-airlines-airbus-a380-pilots-should-be-paid-more.html
>>
>Pay is always based on the location of the job. Software engineers in
>the US make 75K but in Bangalore they make 5K. Why would it be
They took a pay cut? My late cousin was making considerably more than
that 10 years ago. That too depended on what you were doing and where.
I understood that a lot of pilots flying the "big iron" have taken
some serious pay cuts in the past few years.

>different for pilots?

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> I don't work for HP anymore, I work for a small privately owned
>> company... HP is continuing to cut people here locally as they send
>> the R&D to Shanghai and Singapore. Not much future at HP in the USA.
>
> Not much future for HP, actually.
>

Oh I'll sell my shares!


Bwawhahhwhahwhahhwhahwhahwhahhwhahwhha!

bertie

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Sylvain writes:
>
>> if you define responsibility by, say, the number of
>> casualties you might get per goofs, then why are physicians
>> (who can kill/maim only one person at a time) paid more than
>> engineers (who can goof really big, and repeatedly, unlike
>> airline pilots); we should be on the very top of the pay
>> scale! :-)
>
> Physicians are also less heavily regulated than airline pilots and
some
> engineers, which is also rather curious.

You';re an idiot.


The answer to that one is obvious, but not to the autistic, obviously.


Bertie

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Jim Logajan writes:
>
>> Very probable - but it may also be the nature of the kinds of
>> projects I've been doing and my client's underlying motivation.
>
> If you can restrict yourself to projects suitable for this philosophy,
> great. The problem is that there are still a lot of projects that have
> to be done and do not conform to this philosophy.
>
>> Generally a client who constantly changes the target will quickly
>> become a non-client in short order.
>
> Not for people billing by the hour. A lot of consulting firms love
> such clients.

Good grief, you're not smart enough to use cutlery are you?

bertie

On May 27, 7:45 am, "Blueskies" > wrote:
> > wrote in ooglegroups.com...
> > On May 26, 5:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> >> In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>
> >> >The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> >> >software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> >> >large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> >> >employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> >> >school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> >> >with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
>
> >> Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
> >> as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
> >> off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
> >> US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.
>
> >> I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
> >> years there won't be a single job left in the US.
>
> >> --
> >> Paul Tomblin /
> >> "Harry very carefully read the manual - four times - because Snape would
> >> cut off his breathing privs if he asked him a question that the manual
> >> could answer..." -- Harry Potter and the Book Of The BOFH
>
> > Hi Paul,
>
> > Yes, I told my nephew not to become a Mechanical Engineer for the same
> > reason. He is going into business and Lanscape Architecture instead.
> > They can't offshore that.
>
> > One of the reasons that engineers are disappearing from the
> > marketplace is because a lot of them are getting sick of the lack of
> > job stability, declining pay, and generally poor workplace
> > environments that have come into being in recent years and have left
> > the profession for other vocations. I know of several that did that
> > here in Idaho.
>
> > Dean
>
> Good engineers will hold good jobs. Sometimes knowledge is considered a commodity, so those that conform go offshore. It
> is creativity that makes one valuable. If the creativity manufacturing base is offloaded, there will be no need for
> landscape architecture because no-one will be able to buy the garden...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm a good engineer, but I could see the writing on the wall at HP so
I took the package and left. I had a new job 1 week after my last day
at HP. It still sucks having to change jobs every 5 years on
average. My vacation balance starts off at 0 every time, and that is
just one of the downsides...

On May 25, 11:23 pm, wrote:
> On May 25, 8:50 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 25, 4:08 pm, wrote:
>
> > > On May 25, 4:34 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> > > > On May 25, 3:17 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>
> > > > > In a previous article, Mxsmanic > said:
>
> > > > > >Robert M. Gary writes:
> > > > > >> Where can I get a software engineer in the US for 75K?? I've been
> > > > > >> trying to grow my U.S. team for quiet some time but even six figure
> > > > > >> saleries don't generate a lot of response.
>
> > > > > >Are these telecommuting positions?
>
> > > > > The problem with "telecommuting positions" is that if they want
> > > > > telecommuters, they want Indian, Chinese, or Eastern European
> > > > > telecommuters, or people willing to work for those types of wages.
>
> > > > The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> > > > software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> > > > large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> > > > employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> > > > school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> > > > with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
> > > > large amount of sales come from overseas its hard to explain to a
> > > > foreign country or company why they should buy your product if you
> > > > don't spend any money in their country (i.e. "why should I buy your
> > > > product if you won't hire anyone from my country")? Its the same
> > > > reason Boeing subs out the 777 all over the world, those country are
> > > > customers too.
> > > > BTW: The cost savings in India for programmers is all but totally
> > > > gone. China will always have a small roll because of the extream
> > > > language difference. Eastern Europe is probably going to see a large
> > > > increase in technology hiring in the near term.
>
> > > > -Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
> > > > software
>
> > > Robert,
>
> > > Let me guess... you are in a high-cost large city job market, right?
>
> > Probably middle tier. We're near Sacramento.
>
> > > I am an Electrical Engineer with 20 years of design experience in both
> > > hardware and software, and in Idaho I make $80K a year,
>
> > Well, if you account for all the state taxes here (income, high sales,
> > $5000/yr average home property tax, sales/use tax on airplanes, etc)
> > you probably are making a California equiv of $100K.
>
> > > Plus, HP has been
> > > laying off so many people in Boise that there are lots of folks in the
> > > market for an engineering position.
>
> > Yea, HP is now where you want to be, especially if you are in a one
> > employeer town. However, the best money has always been at smaller,
> > riskier companies. You always take a salery cut to work at a more
> > "stable" ;) company like IBM, HP, etc.
>
> > -robert- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Robert,
>
> I don't work for HP anymore, I work for a small privately owned
> company... HP is continuing to cut people here locally as they send
> the R&D to Shanghai and Singapore. Not much future at HP in the USA.
>
> Dean- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I've been in this industry for about 15 years so I've probaby been
through 20 rounds of layoffs. Everytime I see people standing in the
hall complaining that their jobs are going to India, etc. Its just
sad. These people joined the technology industry when things were
going really, really well. Apparently they thought the world is
static, and that nothing ever changes. So they sat at their desks and
thought they'd be there until retirement. I don't have a lot of
sympathy for those types. There are *LOTS* and *LOTS* of opportunities
in the U.S. but you have to see the writing on the wall and change as
the industry changes. You have to keep updating your skills. I went
and got a company paid MBA and several patents knowing that the future
was in strategic management, not code monkeying.

On May 26, 11:04 am, Martin Hotze > wrote:
> On 25 May 2007 15:34:25 -0700, Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> >-Robert, BS Computer Science, MBA, holder of 3 U.S. patents for
> >software
>
> hopefully we (EU) won't introduce software patents ...
> <http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/en/m/intro/index.html>

I'm not an idealist, I'm a pragmatist. I excel in the environment I'm
in. I agree that software patents have gotten out of control in many
ways but I swim in the pool I fall in.

-Robert

On May 26, 4:19 pm, Sylvain > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > Yea, HP is now where you want to be, especially if you are in a one
> > employeer town. However, the best money has always been at smaller,
> > riskier companies. You always take a salery cut to work at a more
> > "stable" ;) company like IBM, HP, etc.
>
> not always true actually;

If it was always true it wouldn't be "risky". You have to be dynamic
and see the writing on the wall. Don't ever be the last guy who shuts
off the lights.

-Robert

On May 26, 8:25 pm, wrote:
> On May 26, 5:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>
> > >The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> > >software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> > >large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> > >employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> > >school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> > >with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
>
> > Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
> > as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
> > off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
> > US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.
>
> > I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
> > years there won't be a single job left in the US.
>
> > --
> > Paul Tomblin /
> > "Harry very carefully read the manual - four times - because Snape would
> > cut off his breathing privs if he asked him a question that the manual
> > could answer..." -- Harry Potter and the Book Of The BOFH
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Yes, I told my nephew not to become a Mechanical Engineer for the same
> reason. He is going into business and Lanscape Architecture instead.
> They can't offshore that.
>
> One of the reasons that engineers are disappearing from the
> marketplace is because a lot of them are getting sick of the lack of
> job stability, declining pay, and generally poor workplace
> environments that have come into being in recent years and have left
> the profession for other vocations. I know of several that did that
> here in Idaho.

Maybe they are really, really old. I got out of school in the 90's
just ahead of the internet boom. I don't ever remember there being job
stability(if you define it as being able to work for the same company
for 40 years), and hours have always been long (actually they were a
lot longer before the industrialization of software). The bottom line
is that there were *WAY* too many people calling themselves
programmers during the internet bubble. Now you have to know what you
are doing.

-robert

On May 26, 4:35 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
> In a previous article, "Robert M. Gary" > said:
>
> >The cost is actually a very small factor in overseas hiring in the
> >software industry. Our two main motivating factors are 1) we want a
> >large pool to hire from, in the U.S. right now its very much an
> >employees market, its hard for employeers to find "good" (not the high
> >school kids that were hired during the internet bubble, real engineers
> >with real engineering degrees) programmers to pick from and 2) Since a
>
> Bull****. At least 50 percent of the programmers I know are not working
> as programmers because their employers fired them and replaced them with
> off-shore workers. There are plenty of very good programmers here in the
> US who can't get work because employers don't want to pay a living wage.

Personally I have seen salerys do nothing but go up in the U.S. since
early 2000's (yes, they did drop for a bit, but have more than
recovered). My friends and I have been moving around and have found 6
figures still available. However, if the last time you updated your
skills was 1995 you probably won't get much work. Things change fast,
you need to keep up with recurrent training (JEE, .NET, etc). The days
of sitting at your desk and expecting the world to sit around and wait
for you are gone.

> I told my kids not to bother getting engineering degrees because in a few
> years there won't be a single job left in the US.

Sounds like something from talk radio but certainly very contrary to
what I've seen. In fact the biggest issue is that other types of
engineering have been taking good programmers out of the pool. Sales
engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored. There is
travel involved but you usually work from home.

-Robert

On May 27, 8:13 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
> On Fri, 25 May 2007 15:22:00 GMT, John Theune >
> wrote:
>
> >Kingfish wrote:
> >> Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> >> Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
> >> more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
> >> seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
> >> is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
> >> base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
> >> allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
> >> more than that...
>
> >>http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-si...
>
> >Pay is always based on the location of the job. Software engineers in
> >the US make 75K but in Bangalore they make 5K. Why would it be
>
> They took a pay cut? My late cousin was making considerably more than
> that 10 years ago. That too depended on what you were doing and where.
> I understood that a lot of pilots flying the "big iron" have taken
> some serious pay cuts in the past few years.

Software engineers who are still using skills from 1995 are probably
making 75K. If you aren't attending conferences (like Java One, etc)
and going to training at least once a year you can't expect to make
much more.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary writes:

> I've been in this industry for about 15 years so I've probaby been
> through 20 rounds of layoffs. Everytime I see people standing in the
> hall complaining that their jobs are going to India, etc. Its just
> sad. These people joined the technology industry when things were
> going really, really well. Apparently they thought the world is
> static, and that nothing ever changes. So they sat at their desks and
> thought they'd be there until retirement. I don't have a lot of
> sympathy for those types. There are *LOTS* and *LOTS* of opportunities
> in the U.S. but you have to see the writing on the wall and change as
> the industry changes. You have to keep updating your skills. I went
> and got a company paid MBA and several patents knowing that the future
> was in strategic management, not code monkeying.

That's exactly what people said about most IT jobs not so long ago.

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Maybe they are really, really old. I got out of school in the 90's
> just ahead of the internet boom. I don't ever remember there being job
> stability(if you define it as being able to work for the same company
> for 40 years), and hours have always been long (actually they were a
> lot longer before the industrialization of software). The bottom line
> is that there were *WAY* too many people calling themselves
> programmers during the internet bubble. Now you have to know what you
> are doing.

There hasn't been any job stability since the first oil crisis.

Even if you know what you are doing, someone in India knows what he is doing
even better than you do, and he'll work for 10% of your salary.

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Sales engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored.

Sales engineering is an oxymoron.

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Software engineers who are still using skills from 1995 are probably
> making 75K. If you aren't attending conferences (like Java One, etc)
> and going to training at least once a year you can't expect to make
> much more.

Conferences and training are just ways to make money from the naïve.

On May 30, 2:09 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Conferences and training are just ways to make money from the naïve.

Interesting statement. Perhaps you could tell us how this philosophy
has helped your own career in IT?

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> I've been in this industry for about 15 years so I've probaby been
>> through 20 rounds of layoffs. Everytime I see people standing in the
>> hall complaining that their jobs are going to India, etc. Its just
>> sad. These people joined the technology industry when things were
>> going really, really well. Apparently they thought the world is
>> static, and that nothing ever changes. So they sat at their desks and
>> thought they'd be there until retirement. I don't have a lot of
>> sympathy for those types. There are *LOTS* and *LOTS* of opportunities
>> in the U.S. but you have to see the writing on the wall and change as
>> the industry changes. You have to keep updating your skills. I went
>> and got a company paid MBA and several patents knowing that the future
>> was in strategic management, not code monkeying.
>
> That's exactly what people said about most IT jobs not so long ago.
>

You're an idiot.

Bertie

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> Maybe they are really, really old. I got out of school in the 90's
>> just ahead of the internet boom. I don't ever remember there being
>> job stability(if you define it as being able to work for the same
>> company for 40 years), and hours have always been long (actually they
>> were a lot longer before the industrialization of software). The
>> bottom line is that there were *WAY* too many people calling
>> themselves programmers during the internet bubble. Now you have to
>> know what you are doing.
>
> There hasn't been any job stability since the first oil crisis.
Waht do you care, you don';t have a job.

Bertie

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> Software engineers who are still using skills from 1995 are probably
>> making 75K. If you aren't attending conferences (like Java One, etc)
>> and going to training at least once a year you can't expect to make
>> much more.
>
> Conferences and training are just ways to make money from the naïve.



Yeah, all the money they wasted training me to fly is obviously a waste..

Fjukkktard.

Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> Sales engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored.
>
> Sales engineering is an oxymoron.

Not really. I have several friends that have jobs in sales where their
engineering skills are critical.

Of course, I understand if you can't parse that sentence. It does have two
words that you seem to not relate to.

On May 30, 11:07 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
> > I've been in this industry for about 15 years so I've probaby been
> > through 20 rounds of layoffs. Everytime I see people standing in the
> > hall complaining that their jobs are going to India, etc. Its just
> > sad. These people joined the technology industry when things were
> > going really, really well. Apparently they thought the world is
> > static, and that nothing ever changes. So they sat at their desks and
> > thought they'd be there until retirement. I don't have a lot of
> > sympathy for those types. There are *LOTS* and *LOTS* of opportunities
> > in the U.S. but you have to see the writing on the wall and change as
> > the industry changes. You have to keep updating your skills. I went
> > and got a company paid MBA and several patents knowing that the future
> > was in strategic management, not code monkeying.
>
> That's exactly what people said about most IT jobs not so long ago.

Yes. You can never plan on doing the same thing for 40 years today,
you have be to flexible enough to change with the times.

-Robert

On May 30, 11:08 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
> > Maybe they are really, really old. I got out of school in the 90's
> > just ahead of the internet boom. I don't ever remember there being job
> > stability(if you define it as being able to work for the same company
> > for 40 years), and hours have always been long (actually they were a
> > lot longer before the industrialization of software). The bottom line
> > is that there were *WAY* too many people calling themselves
> > programmers during the internet bubble. Now you have to know what you
> > are doing.
>
> There hasn't been any job stability since the first oil crisis.
>
> Even if you know what you are doing, someone in India knows what he is doing
> even better than you do, and he'll work for 10% of your salary.

I have a dozen guys in India right now. Not a one only makes 10% of a
U.S. salary and some are pretty darn close to U.S. salary. Yet, we
just hired 6 people here in the states and I just found out about two
more companies in the area looking for programmers at lunch. So all
your assertions are wrong.

-Robret

On May 30, 11:09 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
> > Sales engineering is now very, very big and can't be off-shored.
>
> Sales engineering is an oxymoron.

Apparently you aren't familiar with the technology industry so I'll
explain what the term means. Sales guys don't know much about
technology so they bring sales engineers out with them (or ahead of
them). The sales engineer talks tech with the customer and sets up
demo type of stuff. The actual sales guy just talks to the finance guy
and the C-executive (CEO, CTO, COO, etc). Sales engineers make salary
plus a piece of the sales person's commission. Since that job requires
travel in the U.S. its hard to outsource right now (its taking us
about 4 weeks to get business Visas for employees coming into the U.S.
for periods of 1 to 2 weeks of travel). Most of our sales engineers
live all over the country working out of their house and traveling
about 2 weeks per month. Again, its amazing to me how some people are
so confident in their opinion of the U.S. job market as they sit in
their parent's basement.

-Robert

On May 30, 11:09 am, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
> > Software engineers who are still using skills from 1995 are probably
> > making 75K. If you aren't attending conferences (like Java One, etc)
> > and going to training at least once a year you can't expect to make
> > much more.
>
> Conferences and training are just ways to make money from the naïve.

Sounds like someone can't afford the $5000 for the conference pass and
is a bit bitter about it. If you are working in IT you can expense it
so I don't care what it costs. If you think for a second that having
recent conferences and training on your resume doesn't make a
difference you are in a way different world than the rest of us.
Bottom line, I'm easily making 6 figures and have enough money in the
bank that the 5% etrade savings account pays me comes out to more than
you said you make a year. So, you can argue with me if you want but
I'm out here making money and you're at home bitching.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> you said you make a year. So, you can argue with me if you want but
> I'm out here making money and you're at home bitching.

tsst tsst. You are spoiling a perfectly entertaining usenet discussion
by injecting facts and an unhealthy dose of reality. :-)

--Sylvain

On May 25, 8:24 am, Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
> On May 25, 10:27 am, Kingfish > wrote:
>
> > Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
> > Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
> > more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
> > seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
> > is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
> > base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
> > allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
> > more than that...
>
> >http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-si...
>
> Do bigger airplanes require more skill to fly? The Wright Flyer weighs
> only 600 lbs but most pilots don't have the skill to fly it.

Generally airlines require more hours to fly the bigger planes. As a
result those more experienced pilots will tend to make more because
they can demand a higher salary in the market (in addition to union
factors). Bottom line, its easier to convince someone to fly their
C-172 for you than their B-747.

-Robert

On May 25, 8:24 am, Andrew Sarangan > wrote:
> On May 25, 10:27 am, Kingfish > wrote:

>
> Hummer drivers must be smarter than Geo Metro drivers.

Hummers don't require more experienced drivers (maybe they should
though). However, driving an 18 wheel rig requires more experience
than driving an in-town delivery truck and the pay reflects that.

-Robert

On 29 May 2007 16:03:55 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>On May 27, 8:13 pm, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 May 2007 15:22:00 GMT, John Theune >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Kingfish wrote:
>> >> Interesting article here on the arbitration case between Singapore
>> >> Airlines and its pilots. The court ruled SIA must pay A380 captains
>> >> more than 747 captains. Duh? If it's bigger, heavier and has more
>> >> seats that should be a no-brainer IMHO, unless of course the airline
>> >> is trying to contain labor costs. I was amazed to see their monthly
>> >> base pay of $10k for 747 captains. $120k/yr to fly a 747? Even
>> >> allowing for per diem and other stuff, SWA's 737 captains make a lot
>> >> more than that...
>>
>> >>http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/25/214231/court-rules-si...
>>
>> >Pay is always based on the location of the job. Software engineers in
>> >the US make 75K but in Bangalore they make 5K. Why would it be
>>
>> They took a pay cut? My late cousin was making considerably more than
>> that 10 years ago. That too depended on what you were doing and where.
>> I understood that a lot of pilots flying the "big iron" have taken
>> some serious pay cuts in the past few years.
>
>Software engineers who are still using skills from 1995 are probably
>making 75K. If you aren't attending conferences (like Java One, etc)
>and going to training at least once a year you can't expect to make
>much more.
>
That pretty much stands to reason and isn't just true in the software
business.


My point is we were making more than that back then and if keeping up
I'd expect to be making much more. However, I'm retired and making
much less at least as far as my pension goes.

>-Robert
>

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> However, driving an 18 wheel rig requires more experience
> than driving an in-town delivery truck and the pay reflects that.

As well as the license. Just like flying, there are also additional
endorsements for hazmat, oversize, tandem, etc...

I'll bet the average truck driver makes better money than the average
non-airline pilot. 8^(

On May 31, 4:36 am, B A R R Y > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > However, driving an 18 wheel rig requires more experience
> > than driving an in-town delivery truck and the pay reflects that.
>
> As well as the license. Just like flying, there are also additional
> endorsements for hazmat, oversize, tandem, etc...
>
> I'll bet the average truck driver makes better money than the average
> non-airline pilot. 8^(

Yes, in fact if there is one industry in the U.S. that is yelling for
people to come work for them with good pay and little experience, its
trucking. When I was in college many of my friends drove tomatoes
during summer break. Back in the early 90's they were paying almost
$20/hr for zero experience 20 year olds. The trucking companies had
their own DMV examiners on staff and would train you (free) and sign
you off in a week and you were driving a double rig the next day. From
everything I've heard the trucking industry is even more desperate
now.

-Robert

In article om>,
"Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> On May 31, 4:36 am, B A R R Y > wrote:
> > Robert M. Gary wrote:
> > > However, driving an 18 wheel rig requires more experience
> > > than driving an in-town delivery truck and the pay reflects that.
> >
> > As well as the license. Just like flying, there are also additional
> > endorsements for hazmat, oversize, tandem, etc...
> >
> > I'll bet the average truck driver makes better money than the average
> > non-airline pilot. 8^(
>
> Yes, in fact if there is one industry in the U.S. that is yelling for
> people to come work for them with good pay and little experience, its
> trucking. When I was in college many of my friends drove tomatoes
> during summer break. Back in the early 90's they were paying almost
> $20/hr for zero experience 20 year olds. The trucking companies had
> their own DMV examiners on staff and would train you (free) and sign
> you off in a week and you were driving a double rig the next day. From
> everything I've heard the trucking industry is even more desperate
> now.

Trucking is the preferred job of Somali immigrants.