I'm currently in "ground school" and hope to begin my actual flight
instruction soon. I will need to keep a close eye on the costs involved.

Some classmates are tossing around the idea of us purchasing a plane as a
group, doing our training, and then selling the plane. When our training s
completed, we would either sell to a "third party" buyer or allow some group
members who want to keep and share the plane to "buy back" shares from other
members at a discount.

Does anybody out there have any experience with such a scheme? Is this
really practical? Any solid info about legal requirements, insurance
issues, maintenance and storage costs, or tips for purchasing / selling a
plane would be appreciated.

Suggestions as to appropriate "training" aircraft (beyond the Cessna 150 /
172) would also be appreciated.

Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a lot of
time. Maybe we could get a small discount?

Craig Slein, Houston, Texas

> Suggestions as to appropriate "training" aircraft (beyond the Cessna 150 /
> 172) would also be appreciated.

A Cherokee 140 is an excellent and inexpensive trainer that can (in a
pinch) carry four people. It also has the advantage of having the
wing on the proper side of the fuselage...

;-)

> Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
> instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a lot of
> time. Maybe we could get a small discount?

Sounds like a good idea -- if you can keep everyone in line and on
schedule.

If you can keep a bunch of student pilots focused and organized,
you've got two great opportunities to save money. In my experience,
however, organizing pilots is a lot like herding cats, so you'll have
your work cut out for you...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

> It also has the advantage of having the
> wing on the proper side of the fuselage...

The outside?

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

wrote:
>
> Does anybody out there have any experience with such a scheme? Is this
> really practical? Any solid info about legal requirements, insurance
> issues, maintenance and storage costs, or tips for purchasing / selling a
> plane would be appreciated.
>

It might be difficult to get insurance for an airplane
that does not have a qualified pilot named on the policy.

> Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
> instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a lot of
> time. Maybe we could get a small discount?
>

It might work out better for you all to buy a plane then lease
it back to the flight school so that it could be insured on
their policy... with their flight instructors so you get
a better rate.

In the end though, I'm not convinced you'll end up any better
off than if you just rent the airplane. You can spend a lot
of time running all the numbers but in the end... remember that
when you own the airplane you are responsible for repairs,
maintenance and inspections. If I was in flight training I'd
want to concentrate only on that and not about A/C ownership.

Jay Honeck > wrote in
:

>> Suggestions as to appropriate "training" aircraft (beyond the Cessna
>> 150 / 172) would also be appreciated.
>
> A Cherokee 140 is an excellent and inexpensive trainer that can (in a
> pinch) carry four people. It also has the advantage of having the
> wing on the proper side of the fuselage...
>
> ;-)
>
>> Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
>> instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a
>> lot of time. Maybe we could get a small discount?
>
> Sounds like a good idea -- if you can keep everyone in line and on
> schedule.
>
> If you can keep a bunch of student pilots focused and organized,
> you've got two great opportunities to save money. In my experience,
> however, organizing pilots is a lot like herding cats, so you'll have
> your work cut out for you...
> --


Yeah, maybe you can hire in some mexicans to do the hard work for you.


Bertie

kontiki > wrote in
:

> wrote:
>>
>> Does anybody out there have any experience with such a scheme? Is
>> this really practical? Any solid info about legal requirements,
>> insurance issues, maintenance and storage costs, or tips for
>> purchasing / selling a plane would be appreciated.
>>
>
> It might be difficult to get insurance for an airplane
> that does not have a qualified pilot named on the policy.
>
>> Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
>> instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a
>> lot of time. Maybe we could get a small discount?
>>
>
> It might work out better for you all to buy a plane then lease
> it back to the flight school so that it could be insured on
> their policy... with their flight instructors so you get
> a better rate.
>
> In the end though, I'm not convinced you'll end up any better
> off than if you just rent the airplane. You can spend a lot
> of time running all the numbers but in the end... remember that
> when you own the airplane you are responsible for repairs,
> maintenance and inspections. If I was in flight training I'd
> want to concentrate only on that and not about A/C ownership.
>

I know some guys who did just this, but they were all going right
through and getting all their ratings ( excluding multi) on the one
airplane. It worked out well for them and they figured they saved a
fortune.



Bertie

On Dec 16, 2:42 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > Suggestions as to appropriate "training" aircraft (beyond the Cessna 150 /
> > 172) would also be appreciated.
>
> A Cherokee 140 is an excellent and inexpensive trainer that can (in a
> pinch) carry four people. It also has the advantage of having the
> wing on the proper side of the fuselage...
>
> ;-)
>
> > Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
> > instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a lot of
> > time. Maybe we could get a small discount?
>
> Sounds like a good idea -- if you can keep everyone in line and on
> schedule.
>
> If you can keep a bunch of student pilots focused and organized,
> you've got two great opportunities to save money. In my experience,
> however, organizing pilots is a lot like herding cats, so you'll have
> your work cut out for you...
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?

Is this a flight school for ants?

Dan McCormack
http://trainingforcfi.blogspot.com/

" > wrote in
:

> On Dec 16, 2:42 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> > Suggestions as to appropriate "training" aircraft (beyond the
>> > Cessna 150 / 172) would also be appreciated.
>>
>> A Cherokee 140 is an excellent and inexpensive trainer that can (in a
>> pinch) carry four people. It also has the advantage of having the
>> wing on the proper side of the fuselage...
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> > Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
>> > instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a
>> > lot of time. Maybe we could get a small discount?
>>
>> Sounds like a good idea -- if you can keep everyone in line and on
>> schedule.
>>
>> If you can keep a bunch of student pilots focused and organized,
>> you've got two great opportunities to save money. In my experience,
>> however, organizing pilots is a lot like herding cats, so you'll have
>> your work cut out for you...
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
> Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?


Hey, an even dozen if you pack 'em tight and they're light!

Bertie

> wrote in message
...
> I'm currently in "ground school" and hope to begin my actual flight
> instruction soon. I will need to keep a close eye on the costs involved.
>
> Some classmates are tossing around the idea of us purchasing a plane as a
> group, doing our training, and then selling the plane. When our training
> s
> completed, we would either sell to a "third party" buyer or allow some
> group
> members who want to keep and share the plane to "buy back" shares from
> other
> members at a discount.
>
> Does anybody out there have any experience with such a scheme? Is this
> really practical? Any solid info about legal requirements, insurance
> issues, maintenance and storage costs, or tips for purchasing / selling a
> plane would be appreciated.

It works if you have the right people. My dad always had partners...

Talk to an attorney about setting up a corperation to actually own it and
defining how to dissolve it when you are done, or someone decides to bail,
or someone doesn't hold up their end.

Expect that a minority of the people involved will do most of the work and
most of the flying.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

You've gotten some good advice so far. You should all join the AOPA
and take advantage of their legal plan, then sit down with a lawyer to
set up a non profit corporation. The capt's reply about this was very
accurate. It gets sticky when you want you're initial money
back..... If you plan on doing all this and then selling the plane at
the end, I think renting is the way to go. If you are setting up a
long term situation, take the time to form a club, and do it right.

Doing it the wrong way, or with the wrong people will guarantee a
costly and bad experience. FWIW, and no offense intended, as students
you will be beating up your "own" plane. Hard landings etc. It might
be better to rent until you are landing without having the CFI
questioning their choice of vocation.

Doug

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 15:14:47 -0500, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:
>
>It works if you have the right people. My dad always had partners...

That really is _the_ rub! I knew my partner for years before we
bought the airplane. Both of us were partners in other businesses, so
we had training wheels.

The other folks involved are more important than the actual airplane.

>
>Talk to an attorney about setting up a corperation to actually own it and
>defining how to dissolve it when you are done, or someone decides to bail,
>or someone doesn't hold up their end.

Right. A good partnership is when you sit down and figure out written
outcomes ahead of time for all the bad stuff. Somebody wants out,
somebody can't pay, the others want one person out, the plane needs a
$20,000 uninsured repair...

If you can't agree NOW on how you address such situations, now is the
time to not form the partnership.

In article >,
" > wrote:

> Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?

a older 140 can have the useful load to carry four people,
especially when you start with the fuel at the tabs. I've even
seen older 140s that have more useful load than a warrior.
Steve Foley had (has?) one with 872lb useful load.

Of course, the two in the back seats won't be super comfortable
since the backseat legroom is a bit cramped. ;-)

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

> " > wrote:
> > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>
> a older 140 can have the useful load to carry four people,
> especially when you start with the fuel at the tabs. I've even
> seen older 140s that have more useful load than a warrior.
> Steve Foley had (has?) one with 872lb useful load.

> --
> Bob Noel
> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)

And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?

" > wrote in news:5a0b505f-2782-433f-
:

>
>> " > wrote:
>> > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>>
>> a older 140 can have the useful load to carry four people,
>> especially when you start with the fuel at the tabs. I've even
>> seen older 140s that have more useful load than a warrior.
>> Steve Foley had (has?) one with 872lb useful load.
>
>> --
>> Bob Noel
>> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)
>
> And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?

Two diet coke bottles with Menthos thrown in

Bertie

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 12:03:29 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote:

> Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>
> Is this a flight school for ants?

My aunts are pretty light.... :-)

Ron Wanttaja

Jay Honeck > writes:
>> Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
>> instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a lot of
>> time. Maybe we could get a small discount?
>
> Sounds like a good idea -- if you can keep everyone in line and on
> schedule.

Even better -- if you have more than one student in the plane at a
time you may also be able to save some money. One flies, the other
observes and learns from the other's mistakes, then trade. This will
probably reduce the total number of hours at the controls required to
learn.

The hard part is getting folks to agree to a common schedule.

Chris

I know 3 guys who are doing this now, and saving a pile... (by their
own numbers)

It is a Cherokee 140..

Yes, the wing IS in the right place..

Yes, it WILL haul 4 people (in a pinch, WITH a pinch!)

And it is a good trainer,

And is tough and inexpensive.

And parts are reasonable, and available..

And it is a simple to maintain plane..

Ald although not a "fast" plane, has decent cross country speed...

Did I mention that the wing is in the right place?

A Cessna 150 is great trainer, but not much else.. It is slow, light,
cramped, no payload..

And...the 140 has LOTS of "utility" while working as a trainer...

YMMV! :)

Dave


On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 19:09:07 GMT, wrote:

>I'm currently in "ground school" and hope to begin my actual flight
>instruction soon. I will need to keep a close eye on the costs involved.
>
>Some classmates are tossing around the idea of us purchasing a plane as a
>group, doing our training, and then selling the plane. When our training s
>completed, we would either sell to a "third party" buyer or allow some group
>members who want to keep and share the plane to "buy back" shares from other
>members at a discount.
>
>Does anybody out there have any experience with such a scheme? Is this
>really practical? Any solid info about legal requirements, insurance
>issues, maintenance and storage costs, or tips for purchasing / selling a
>plane would be appreciated.
>
>Suggestions as to appropriate "training" aircraft (beyond the Cessna 150 /
>172) would also be appreciated.
>
>Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
>instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a lot of
>time. Maybe we could get a small discount?
>
>Craig Slein, Houston, Texas

Dave > wrote in
:

> I know 3 guys who are doing this now, and saving a pile... (by their
> own numbers)
>
> It is a Cherokee 140..
>
> Yes, the wing IS in the right place..
>
> Yes, it WILL haul 4 people (in a pinch, WITH a pinch!)
>
> And it is a good trainer,


Nope, worst trainer ever.

Well, after the Ercoupe, maybe.

People without legs are alowed to fly them.

they cover a multitude of sins whilst training

>
> And is tough and inexpensive.

True. They are tough.

>
> And parts are reasonable, and available..
>
> And it is a simple to maintain plane..

Also true.
>
> Ald although not a "fast" plane, has decent cross country speed...
>
> Did I mention that the wing is in the right place?
>
> A Cessna 150 is great trainer, but not much else.. It is slow, light,
> cramped, no payload..
>

You're comparing apples and oranges.

the 150 has less than 2/3rds the burn for instance.




Bertie

In article >,
" > wrote:

> > > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
> >
> > a older 140 can have the useful load to carry four people,
> > especially when you start with the fuel at the tabs. I've even
> > seen older 140s that have more useful load than a warrior.
> > Steve Foley had (has?) one with 872lb useful load.

> And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?

Apparently you haven't flown a 140.

My 140 (and Steve's) require the same take-off roll as a warrior II.

--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
.. .
> " > wrote in news:5a0b505f-2782-433f-
> :
>
>>
>>> " > wrote:
>>> > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>>>
>>
>> And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?
>
> Two diet coke bottles with Menthos thrown in
>

Good Golly Dewd, don't you know anything? Diet Vernors is way better for
this than Diet Coke. :-)

But I don't think the plan was to have all the owners in the plane at the
same time...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in
news:hP6dnUCWgZ8bRfjanZ2dnUVZ_sejnZ2d@wideopenwest .com:

> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> " > wrote in
>> news:5a0b505f-2782-433f-
>> :
>>
>>>
>>>> " > wrote:
>>>> > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>>>>
>>>
>>> And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?
>>
>> Two diet coke bottles with Menthos thrown in
>>
>
> Good Golly Dewd, don't you know anything? Diet Vernors is way better
> for this than Diet Coke. :-)

You learn something new in usenet every day.
>
> But I don't think the plan was to have all the owners in the plane at
> the same time...

Used to do 135 in a cherokee 180 out of a very short strip and it would get
anything out of there you could stuff inside of it!
Not a very pleasant airplane to fly, but they are sturdy and they do go
well.


Bertie

> Apparently you haven't flown a 140.
>
> My 140 (and Steve's) require the same take-off roll as a warrior II.

Yep, a 140 that is light on fuel will easily haul four adults.

It helps if they are double-amputees in the back seat, but it'll do
the job in a pinch.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
> I know some guys who did just this, but they were all going right
> through and getting all their ratings ( excluding multi) on the one
> airplane. It worked out well for them and they figured they saved a
> fortune.

That could work once they have their private pilot tickets. Insurance
companies do an antler dance when you mention *student pilot*
solos...insurance on a plane owned by a group of people hoping to get
their *private pilot* licenses in it would likely be very high *if* they
could find a company to do it.

Jose wrote:
>> It also has the advantage of having the
>> wing on the proper side of the fuselage...
>
> The outside?
>
> Jose

I think I remember this answer given when a novice game photographer in
Africa asked the Game Warden at the Kenya Preserve;

"From which side sir, is the best from which to approach a lion?"

--
Dudley Henriques

On Dec 16, 2:03 pm, " > wrote:
> On Dec 16, 2:42 pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Suggestions as to appropriate "training" aircraft (beyond the Cessna 150 /
> > > 172) would also be appreciated.
>
> > A Cherokee 140 is an excellent and inexpensive trainer that can (in a
> > pinch) carry four people. It also has the advantage of having the
> > wing on the proper side of the fuselage...
>
> > ;-)
>
> > > Additionally, would it be wise to contract a single CFI to do our
> > > instruction? At approximately 50 hours per pupil, they could log a lot of
> > > time. Maybe we could get a small discount?
>
> > Sounds like a good idea -- if you can keep everyone in line and on
> > schedule.
>
> > If you can keep a bunch of student pilots focused and organized,
> > you've got two great opportunities to save money. In my experience,
> > however, organizing pilots is a lot like herding cats, so you'll have
> > your work cut out for you...
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
>
> Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>
> Is this a flight school for ants?

A Cherokee 140 will take off at full gross (2150 lbs) and clear a 50'
obstacle in 1800' of paved runway. I've had mine loaded with four
people at full gross weight and it flies just perfectly fine.

Just make sure they aren't all 250+lb lardasses.

My Cherokee 140 has a useful load of 810 pounds.
And BTW, it may be going up for sale again soon so I might be able to
resume my dream of building an RV-7.
It's a nice one, with new paint and interior, a new PM3000 stereo
intercom system, and a GPS196.

A good pic of it taken at Oshkosh 2007 is located at:
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/100122.html

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:44:48 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
wrote:

" > wrote in news:5a0b505f-2782-433f-
:
>
>>
>>> " > wrote:
>>> > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>>>
>>> a older 140 can have the useful load to carry four people,
>>> especially when you start with the fuel at the tabs. I've even
>>> seen older 140s that have more useful load than a warrior.
>>> Steve Foley had (has?) one with 872lb useful load.
>>
>>> --
>>> Bob Noel
>>> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)
>>
>> And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?
>
>Two diet coke bottles with Menthos thrown in
>
>Bertie
**********************************88

No. No. No Bertie

If all four have a large helping of beans before take off, should
break ground (wind) with no problem :o)

Big John

Big John > wrote in
:

> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 22:44:48 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
" > wrote in news:5a0b505f-2782-
433f-
:
>>
>>>
>>>> " > wrote:
>>>> > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>>>>
>>>> a older 140 can have the useful load to carry four people,
>>>> especially when you start with the fuel at the tabs. I've even
>>>> seen older 140s that have more useful load than a warrior.
>>>> Steve Foley had (has?) one with 872lb useful load.
>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bob Noel
>>>> (goodness, please trim replies!!!)
>>>
>>> And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?
>>
>>Two diet coke bottles with Menthos thrown in
>>
>>Bertie
> **********************************88
>
> No. No. No Bertie
>
> If all four have a large helping of beans before take off, should
> break ground (wind) with no problem :o)


I knew someone would go there!


Bertie

Thanks for the unexpectedly large response. I could use a few more
recommendations about which models of aircraft are particularly well suited
to being used as a trainer.

Also, I could really use tips on buying and potential sources of good used
aircraft.

Thanks!

Craig

On Dec 20, 7:52 am, wrote:
> Thanks for the unexpectedly large response. I could use a few more
> recommendations about which models of aircraft are particularly well suited
> to being used as a trainer. Also, I could really use tips on buying and potential sources of good used
> aircraft. Thanks! Craig

Craig,
Strange as it may sound, there aren't 100's of models to chose from
regarding a trainer. You've ruled out the C 150, 172..so that kind of
leaves the Cherokee and possible one or two others. As for where to
find one, you've got Aerotrader, Ebay, the local FBO corkboard and I
suggest doing a Google for Used Planes.

Not to rain on your parade, but you might want to get a few lessons in
some different planes before you go spending the kind of cash you guys
will need to part with.
Speaking of, have you added up all the costs you will be faced with ie
a tie down, insurance, club set up fees, any immediate repairs your
plane will need, headsets etc......

Doug

"gliderguynj" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 20, 7:52 am, wrote:
>> Thanks for the unexpectedly large response. I could use a few more
>> recommendations about which models of aircraft are particularly well
>> suited
>> to being used as a trainer. Also, I could really use tips on buying and
>> potential sources of good used
>> aircraft. Thanks! Craig
>
> Craig,
> Strange as it may sound, there aren't 100's of models to chose from
> regarding a trainer. You've ruled out the C 150, 172..so that kind of
> leaves the Cherokee and possible one or two others. As for where to

I don't know that I would agree - Champs and Cubs are good basic aircraft -
you could "upgrade" to a Citabria... I learned in a Cessna 120. The Yankee
was designed as a trainer. What about a Stinson? Maul? Luscombe?

Lots of LSA's out there you could use for training.

What about homebuilts? No reason you have to use a certified aircraft for
training if you own it yourself - my brother's son learned to fly in a T-18
(probably not considered by most to be a "trainer" but his first hour of
official "dual instruction" was in a Pitts S2).

Wouldn't it be a blast to learn to fly in a Stearman (insurance might be a
problem, eh?)?

Look beyond the ramp of the local FBO - consider what you might want to fly
after you get the ticket (my dad learned to fly in a Navion) - if your
"trainer" turns out to be a real nice running sweatheart, some of you might
want to hang on to it - if not, unload it.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On Dec 20, 7:15 pm, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way
d0t com> wrote:
> I don't know that I would agree - Champs and Cubs are good basic aircraft -
> you could "upgrade" to a Citabria...

Good points Capt. but IIRC Craig also asked about it being a 4 seater
so his buddies could perhaps fly along with the instructor and learn
from watching... that would rule out most of your suggestions.

Doug

"gliderguynj" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 20, 7:15 pm, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way
> d0t com> wrote:
>> I don't know that I would agree - Champs and Cubs are good basic
>> aircraft -
>> you could "upgrade" to a Citabria...
>
> Good points Capt. but IIRC Craig also asked about it being a 4 seater
> so his buddies could perhaps fly along with the instructor and learn
> from watching... that would rule out most of your suggestions.
>

OK, I didn't recall that part (must be getting senile(er)). I saw
"trainer" - which tends towards two seats. But I did mention the Stinson and
the Navion, didn't I? See, I was right all along ;-)

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

On Dec 20, 8:05*pm, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way
d0t com> wrote:
(must be getting senile(er)).

Capt. I'll bet you've forgotten more about aviaition than I have even
begun to learn.

Doug

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 02:06:03 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
wrote:

>"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in
>news:hP6dnUCWgZ8bRfjanZ2dnUVZ_sejnZ2d@wideopenwest .com:
>
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> " > wrote in
>>> news:5a0b505f-2782-433f-
>>> :
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> " > wrote:
>>>>> > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?
>>>
>>> Two diet coke bottles with Menthos thrown in
>>>
>>
>> Good Golly Dewd, don't you know anything? Diet Vernors is way better
>> for this than Diet Coke. :-)
>
>You learn something new in usenet every day.
>>
>> But I don't think the plan was to have all the owners in the plane at
>> the same time...
>
>Used to do 135 in a cherokee 180 out of a very short strip and it would get
>anything out of there you could stuff inside of it!
>Not a very pleasant airplane to fly, but they are sturdy and they do go
>well.

I did a photo shoot for a couple of owners wayyy back in 1990 (give or
take a year) One had a Cherokee 140 and the other a 180. I shot from
the 180 to start then we landed at a small airport (Standish
Industrial air-park) which is now private. They both used little
runway for landing, but on take off I didn't think the 140 was going
to make it. The 180 was off in a fraction of the distance.

I enjoyed flying a 180 with the old Hershey Bar wing, but after that
really disliked the 140. Except for landing I remember the two as
being quite different animals although they are both quite docile.

I spun the 180 a number of times. It was only later I found the
factory placard was a mistake. <:-)) In a fully developed spin proper
inputs would appear to do nothing unless you waited a full turn to
turn and a half and then it'd stop in another half turn.

Roger (K8RI)
>
>
>Bertie

On Dec 21, 4:13*am, "Roger (K8RI)" > wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 02:06:03 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk *at wow way d0t com> wrote in
> >news:hP6dnUCWgZ8bRfjanZ2dnUVZ_sejnZ2d@wideopenwest .com:
>
> >> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >>> " > wrote in
> >>> news:5a0b505f-2782-433f-
> >>> :
>
> >>>>> " > wrote:
> >>>>> > Four people in a Cherokee 140? Are you serious?
>
> >>>> And how many JATO bottles are used during this takeoff?
>
> >>> Two diet coke bottles with Menthos thrown in
>
> >> Good Golly Dewd, don't you know anything? Diet Vernors is way better
> >> for this than Diet Coke. *:-)
>
> >You learn something new in usenet every day.
>
> >> But I don't think the plan was to have all the owners in the plane at
> >> the same time...
>
> >Used to do 135 in a cherokee 180 out of a very short strip and it would get
> >anything out of there you could stuff inside of it!
> >Not a very pleasant airplane to fly, but they are sturdy and they do go
> >well.
>
> I did a photo shoot for a couple of owners wayyy back in 1990 (give or
> take a year) One had a Cherokee 140 and the other *a 180. *I shot from
> the 180 to start then we landed at a small airport (Standish
> Industrial air-park) which is now private. They both used little
> runway for landing, but on take off I didn't think the 140 was going
> to make it. *The 180 was off in a fraction of the distance.
>
> I enjoyed flying a 180 with the old Hershey Bar wing, but after that
> really disliked the 140. Except for landing I remember the two as
> being quite different animals although they are both quite docile.
>
> I spun the 180 a number of times. It was only later I found the
> factory placard was a mistake. <:-)) *In a fully developed spin proper
> inputs would appear to do nothing unless you waited a full turn to
> turn and a half and then it'd stop in another half turn.
>


Different from the 140 in spins? cause I used to spin them all the
time for training. I flew a 181 recently and noticed that it wasn´t
certified for spins.
I preferred the square wing ones myself, though i haven´t a lot of
time in the newer ones anyway.


Bertie

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 08:11:49 -0700, Shirl >
wrote:

>Bertie the Bunyip > wrote:
>> I know some guys who did just this, but they were all going right
>> through and getting all their ratings ( excluding multi) on the one
>> airplane. It worked out well for them and they figured they saved a
>> fortune.
>
>That could work once they have their private pilot tickets. Insurance
>companies do an antler dance when you mention *student pilot*
>solos...insurance on a plane owned by a group of people hoping to get
>their *private pilot* licenses in it would likely be very high *if* they
>could find a company to do it.

I know things have changed somewhat, but three of us (all students)
purchased a Cherokee 180. IIRC the insurrance was around $1200 a year.
No problem in the simple aircraft.

Roger (K8RI)

On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 00:42:45 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
wrote:

>Dave > wrote in
:
>
>> I know 3 guys who are doing this now, and saving a pile... (by their
>> own numbers)
>>
>> It is a Cherokee 140..
>>
>> Yes, the wing IS in the right place..
>>
>> Yes, it WILL haul 4 people (in a pinch, WITH a pinch!)
>>
>> And it is a good trainer,
>
>
>Nope, worst trainer ever.
>

Many say the Cherokee family is just too docile to be a trainer.
You can put the 180 into a full stall and still use the ailerons to
make turns while in the stall. In some planes if you touch the
ailerons in a stall it'll roll over and/or go into a spin. In the 180
it just sets there with the stabilator vibrating a bit and a high rate
of descent. Do that in my Deb and it takes concentration and some
timely control inputs to keep the greasy side down.

Roger (K8RI)

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in
:

> On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 00:42:45 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
>>Dave > wrote in
:
>>
>>> I know 3 guys who are doing this now, and saving a pile... (by their
>>> own numbers)
>>>
>>> It is a Cherokee 140..
>>>
>>> Yes, the wing IS in the right place..
>>>
>>> Yes, it WILL haul 4 people (in a pinch, WITH a pinch!)
>>>
>>> And it is a good trainer,
>>
>>
>>Nope, worst trainer ever.
>>
>
> Many say the Cherokee family is just too docile to be a trainer.
> You can put the 180 into a full stall and still use the ailerons to
> make turns while in the stall. In some planes if you touch the
> ailerons in a stall it'll roll over and/or go into a spin. In the 180
> it just sets there with the stabilator vibrating a bit and a high rate
> of descent. Do that in my Deb and it takes concentration and some
> timely control inputs to keep the greasy side down.


Well, exactly, it teaches you little,.
Good pickup truck, rotten trainer.

Bertie

Hi Craig

I am a CFI that has taught primary student is Light Sport aircraft up
to C-182's.
For you partnership/club Idea I would recommend sticking with simple
mainstream easy to fly aircraft. I would recommend this because that
will ensure that everyone involved will be able to learn in it easily.
It will also make insuring and maintaining it cheaper. It will also
make it easier to resell when/if you are done with it or ready to move
up. The C-172 or Cherokee series would be excellent choices. Even
C-150/152 or a Tomahawk we be excellent, especially if you really want
to keep costs low, although the C-172 Cherokee would have more
utility.

As mentioned in other posts, be careful to evaulate all the costs and
develop a good plan for as many contigencies as you can think of..
AOPA has a good tool for calulateing the cost of ownership. Look/ask
around your area to see who is already doing this. Also talk to your
CFI and maybe some other CFI's about their thoughts on the idea.

You may find if this works well for you that you will want to keep the
plane and the partnership/club after you have your ratings.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL


On Dec 20, 5:52*am, wrote:
> Thanks for the unexpectedly large response. *I could use a few more
> recommendations about which models of aircraft are particularly well suited
> to being used as a trainer.
>
> Also, I could really use tips on buying and potential sources of good used
> aircraft.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Craig