Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
to know which is the best all around school.

(1) Pro-Flight Aviation Inc uses a relatively quiet airport (Renton),
but it's still close to Sea-Tac International airport. It seems to be
the most cost effective, has only 3 teachers, uses a DVD interactive
course as the ground school, and one person has told me they are not
very customer friendly. A person there said it's very very hard to
learn ground school material in a cram 2 weekend course.

I bought for $109.99 the "Virtual Test Prep an Aviation Ground School,
Private 08 Pilot" to study and prepare for the airplane private pilot
FAA Knowledge Exam by ASA. I also bought the book Guided Flight
Discovery Private Pilot by Jeppesen, because the owner of the company
said I would, basically, have to read certain sections.

(2) Galvin Flying Service is expensive, has 25 trainers, but uses the
busy (taxing time etc) Boeing airfield.

(3) Acuwings is also uses the quiet Renton airport, says they're more
customer friendly, will be "starting" a new/free ground training class
in Jan, use old aircraft (80's), will teach me on a Tomahawk. A person
there told me to learn from an instructor who I like.

(4) Wings Aloft has 15 to 20 instructors, requires a membership, and I
will call them back to talk to the right person.

(5) PremAir is open Monday through Friday, but I have to call them
back to see what they offer.

(6) Northway Aviation is about an hour away, so it's too far to drive.

It appears that I can get the license in about 6 months if I take
lessons two to three times a week (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) for about
an hour each time.

So what should I do,
Christopher Lusardi

P.S.: It's all for fun and remotely work related. But, I can be able
to pretend that I will to become an astronaut some day. [[:-))

I instructed out of Boeing Field for 20 years and spent a lot of time at
Renton, so maybe I can help. No one can say which school is "best," because
the bottom line is the instructor-student relationship. It would be useful
to know whether you plan to go Part 141 (more structured) or Part 61 (more
free-form). Part 141 requires ground school; Part 61 could be resident
ground school, home study, whatever...no specific requirement. The end
result is the same. ..the certificate still says "Airplane - Single Engine
Land."

I don't know where you live, but of those listed, I would lean toward
Pro-Flight IF you find an instructor you click with. Proximity of Sea-Tac is
irrelevant...the Sea-Tac airspace will have an impact on your training
wherever you go. Becoming familiar with operations in and near Class B
airspace will give you a huge advantage over someone whose instructor shies
away from congested airspace.
Acuwings is new to me, but they have an impressive fleet according to their
website. If you can swing the finances, go there and train in the Cirrus.

Galvin's is the 800-pound gorilla. Probably the best of the bunch insofar as
quality is concerned. They have been in the flight training business since
before I got my private in 1962, and you don't survive in this business
unless you provide a superior product. Don't be put off by taxi
distances...that's a poor argument, and it would apply to Wings Aloft as
well.

Wings is a club, as you note, and that's a good thing. They have a lot of
club-type activities...fly-outs, seminars, dances, parties, etc for those
who are interested. Their planes are well-maintained and the whole operation
is polished. It's not Galvins, but then again Galvins is not a club.

You quote someone at Pro-Flight as saying a two-weekend ground school is
tough...try one weekend! Don't be fooled...the sole purpose of these "ground
schools" is to prepare you for the written exam, nothing more. Aviation
Seminars, a traveling road show, simply goes through the questions on the
exam (they are available to the public) and tells you why what they say is
the correct answer is correct...very little depth...and they do it in one
weekend. There are question-answer-explanation books that do the same thing
at your leisure. If you want to get more insight than that...and you
should...both ASA, Gleim, and the Kings have DVD courses. Maybe Pro-Flight
uses one of them. Go to The Aviator's Store on Boeing Field and look at what
is for sale.

PremAir is not for you...it is aircrew training.

The best advice that you got was from Acuwings....you have to have an
instructor with whom you can communicate. Everything else is secondary.

Bob Gardner
"Chris L" > wrote in message
...
> Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
> getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
> the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
> to know which is the best all around school.
>
> (1) Pro-Flight Aviation Inc uses a relatively quiet airport (Renton),
> but it's still close to Sea-Tac International airport. It seems to be
> the most cost effective, has only 3 teachers, uses a DVD interactive
> course as the ground school, and one person has told me they are not
> very customer friendly. A person there said it's very very hard to
> learn ground school material in a cram 2 weekend course.
>
> I bought for $109.99 the "Virtual Test Prep an Aviation Ground School,
> Private 08 Pilot" to study and prepare for the airplane private pilot
> FAA Knowledge Exam by ASA. I also bought the book Guided Flight
> Discovery Private Pilot by Jeppesen, because the owner of the company
> said I would, basically, have to read certain sections.
>
> (2) Galvin Flying Service is expensive, has 25 trainers, but uses the
> busy (taxing time etc) Boeing airfield.
>
> (3) Acuwings is also uses the quiet Renton airport, says they're more
> customer friendly, will be "starting" a new/free ground training class
> in Jan, use old aircraft (80's), will teach me on a Tomahawk. A person
> there told me to learn from an instructor who I like.
>
> (4) Wings Aloft has 15 to 20 instructors, requires a membership, and I
> will call them back to talk to the right person.
>
> (5) PremAir is open Monday through Friday, but I have to call them
> back to see what they offer.
>
> (6) Northway Aviation is about an hour away, so it's too far to drive.
>
> It appears that I can get the license in about 6 months if I take
> lessons two to three times a week (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) for about
> an hour each time.
>
> So what should I do,
> Christopher Lusardi
>
> P.S.: It's all for fun and remotely work related. But, I can be able
> to pretend that I will to become an astronaut some day. [[:-))

Try a intro lesson at each school you like, see what they do and how they
treat you. Do they talk over your head or down to you? Do you understand
what they are saying?

Is the private pilot your only goal, to fly for personal fun and perhaps
business transportation? Do you want to do aerobatics or learn to fly a
seaplane? Do you want to become an airline pilot and earn the "big bucks?"
[It isn't easy and the pay isn't great until you have a lot of experience.]

If you plan to get a commercial and go on to a career, pick Galvin, if you
just want to fly on nice days and take short trips, try AccuWings.

Find out how the instructors are paid, by the airplane hour, or by the
student hour? The airplane hour might sound cheaper since you only pay with
the engine running. But instructors have to eat and some have to feed a
family, so the engine will start before they start to teach, and that gets
expensive real fast and it isn't a good way to learn.

The kind of airplane, as long as it is well maintained, is not important,
the teaching ability and communications skills of the instructor and their
enthusiasm [which can make or break your enthusiasm] is most important.

Don't know your area, what I said is based on general principles and what
you and Bob said.


"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
|I instructed out of Boeing Field for 20 years and spent a lot of time at
| Renton, so maybe I can help. No one can say which school is "best,"
because
| the bottom line is the instructor-student relationship. It would be useful
| to know whether you plan to go Part 141 (more structured) or Part 61 (more
| free-form). Part 141 requires ground school; Part 61 could be resident
| ground school, home study, whatever...no specific requirement. The end
| result is the same. ..the certificate still says "Airplane - Single Engine
| Land."
|
| I don't know where you live, but of those listed, I would lean toward
| Pro-Flight IF you find an instructor you click with. Proximity of Sea-Tac
is
| irrelevant...the Sea-Tac airspace will have an impact on your training
| wherever you go. Becoming familiar with operations in and near Class B
| airspace will give you a huge advantage over someone whose instructor
shies
| away from congested airspace.
| Acuwings is new to me, but they have an impressive fleet according to
their
| website. If you can swing the finances, go there and train in the Cirrus.
|
| Galvin's is the 800-pound gorilla. Probably the best of the bunch insofar
as
| quality is concerned. They have been in the flight training business since
| before I got my private in 1962, and you don't survive in this business
| unless you provide a superior product. Don't be put off by taxi
| distances...that's a poor argument, and it would apply to Wings Aloft as
| well.
|
| Wings is a club, as you note, and that's a good thing. They have a lot of
| club-type activities...fly-outs, seminars, dances, parties, etc for those
| who are interested. Their planes are well-maintained and the whole
operation
| is polished. It's not Galvins, but then again Galvins is not a club.
|
| You quote someone at Pro-Flight as saying a two-weekend ground school is
| tough...try one weekend! Don't be fooled...the sole purpose of these
"ground
| schools" is to prepare you for the written exam, nothing more. Aviation
| Seminars, a traveling road show, simply goes through the questions on the
| exam (they are available to the public) and tells you why what they say is
| the correct answer is correct...very little depth...and they do it in one
| weekend. There are question-answer-explanation books that do the same
thing
| at your leisure. If you want to get more insight than that...and you
| should...both ASA, Gleim, and the Kings have DVD courses. Maybe Pro-Flight
| uses one of them. Go to The Aviator's Store on Boeing Field and look at
what
| is for sale.
|
| PremAir is not for you...it is aircrew training.
|
| The best advice that you got was from Acuwings....you have to have an
| instructor with whom you can communicate. Everything else is secondary.
|
| Bob Gardner
| "Chris L" > wrote in message
| ...
| > Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
| > getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
| > the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
| > to know which is the best all around school.
| >
| > (1) Pro-Flight Aviation Inc uses a relatively quiet airport (Renton),
| > but it's still close to Sea-Tac International airport. It seems to be
| > the most cost effective, has only 3 teachers, uses a DVD interactive
| > course as the ground school, and one person has told me they are not
| > very customer friendly. A person there said it's very very hard to
| > learn ground school material in a cram 2 weekend course.
| >
| > I bought for $109.99 the "Virtual Test Prep an Aviation Ground School,
| > Private 08 Pilot" to study and prepare for the airplane private pilot
| > FAA Knowledge Exam by ASA. I also bought the book Guided Flight
| > Discovery Private Pilot by Jeppesen, because the owner of the company
| > said I would, basically, have to read certain sections.
| >
| > (2) Galvin Flying Service is expensive, has 25 trainers, but uses the
| > busy (taxing time etc) Boeing airfield.
| >
| > (3) Acuwings is also uses the quiet Renton airport, says they're more
| > customer friendly, will be "starting" a new/free ground training class
| > in Jan, use old aircraft (80's), will teach me on a Tomahawk. A person
| > there told me to learn from an instructor who I like.
| >
| > (4) Wings Aloft has 15 to 20 instructors, requires a membership, and I
| > will call them back to talk to the right person.
| >
| > (5) PremAir is open Monday through Friday, but I have to call them
| > back to see what they offer.
| >
| > (6) Northway Aviation is about an hour away, so it's too far to drive.
| >
| > It appears that I can get the license in about 6 months if I take
| > lessons two to three times a week (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) for about
| > an hour each time.
| >
| > So what should I do,
| > Christopher Lusardi
| >
| > P.S.: It's all for fun and remotely work related. But, I can be able
| > to pretend that I will to become an astronaut some day. [[:-))
|

> Try a intro lesson at each school you like, see what they do and how they
> treat you. Do they talk over your head or down to you? Do you understand
> what they are saying?

If there are many flight schools, it may be worth while to try a second intro lesson, =after= you'd done the once around, with the same instructor at the first or second school you tried. It will give you an idea of how your (newly acquired) experience is playing into your evaluation of the various schools.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Chris L wrote:
> Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
> getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
> the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
> to know which is the best all around school.
>
> (1) Pro-Flight Aviation Inc uses a relatively quiet airport (Renton),
> but it's still close to Sea-Tac International airport. It seems to be
> the most cost effective, has only 3 teachers, uses a DVD interactive
> course as the ground school, and one person has told me they are not
> very customer friendly. A person there said it's very very hard to
> learn ground school material in a cram 2 weekend course.
>
> I bought for $109.99 the "Virtual Test Prep an Aviation Ground School,
> Private 08 Pilot" to study and prepare for the airplane private pilot
> FAA Knowledge Exam by ASA. I also bought the book Guided Flight
> Discovery Private Pilot by Jeppesen, because the owner of the company
> said I would, basically, have to read certain sections.
>
> (2) Galvin Flying Service is expensive, has 25 trainers, but uses the
> busy (taxing time etc) Boeing airfield.
>
> (3) Acuwings is also uses the quiet Renton airport, says they're more
> customer friendly, will be "starting" a new/free ground training class
> in Jan, use old aircraft (80's), will teach me on a Tomahawk. A person
> there told me to learn from an instructor who I like.
>
> (4) Wings Aloft has 15 to 20 instructors, requires a membership, and I
> will call them back to talk to the right person.
>
> (5) PremAir is open Monday through Friday, but I have to call them
> back to see what they offer.
>
> (6) Northway Aviation is about an hour away, so it's too far to drive.
>
> It appears that I can get the license in about 6 months if I take
> lessons two to three times a week (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) for about
> an hour each time.
>
> So what should I do,
> Christopher Lusardi
>
> P.S.: It's all for fun and remotely work related. But, I can be able
> to pretend that I will to become an astronaut some day. [[:-))

I don't know the location and the specific schools in this discussion
but the general advice you have received from both Bob and Jim is
excellent and I wouldn't add anything to what they have already said
except to stress one factor they have covered; that being the most
important aspect of this equation involves the specific instructor you
choose after deciding on the venue.
I can't stress this strongly enough. The instructor you choose and what
you learn from that instructor will follow you into your tenure as a
pilot. If the instructor is poor, you can pass the test and will most
likely pick up on your own what it takes to be a good pilot in X amount
of time.
If the instructor is good, you will save all this "catching up" period
between the test and X and reaching X you will be leaps and bounds ahead
of where you would be had the CFI been bad.
Pick carefully. It's a VERY important decision!


--
Dudley Henriques

"Bob Gardner" > writes:
> If you want to get more insight than that...and you
> should...both ASA, Gleim, and the Kings have DVD courses.

The King courses have "more insight"? Oh wow. Those travelling
courses must be really really shallow -- because when I went through
the King private pilot DVDs I was constantly frustrated by how little
explanation there was besides "the FAA wants you to know that..."

Chris

Chris L > writes:
> It appears that I can get the license in about 6 months if I take
> lessons two to three times a week (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) for about
> an hour each time.

When I did my private I took more than an hour for a lesson. (I split
my training between KPAO in California and KBED outside Boston, both
near busy class B airports.) I found that I got the most out of a
lesson by budgeting:
- 1/2 hour for a preflight (without the instructor)
- 2 hours for flying (includes about 15 minutes of taxi, runup, and
waiting in line for the runway)
- 1/2 hour for post-flying debriefing by the instructor (here is
what you need to think about/learn for next time)

I didn't always use that entire time budget, but having planned on
spending all that time on flying kept me from worrying about the next
thing on my schedule when I was supposed to be learning. Also, the
preflight and taxi time are fixed costs (aka, you can't rush them
without cutting corners), and I find it is good to amortize them over
a longer lesson. If you find that your brain fills up quickly you may
want a shorter lesson, if you find you are still refreshed and ready
to learn more at the end you may want to schedule longer ones.

Chris

I'll add one more think, the instructor/student relationship is very
personal. Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
problem. Often the INSTRUCTOR has a series of step by step lesson plans,
concentrating on mastering airwork, turns of all kinds, ground reference
maneuvers, airspeed control and is not ready for "landings" yet.
The student is happy because they are flying and working hard and learning
the basics. But if the instructor is ill and another instructor subs a
problem arises.
#2 instructor may just say to the student, "You've got 8 hours, so let's
stay in the pattern and practice take-offs and landings."

So far your student has been doing the take-off and the landing at the end
of the flight, after being briefed and warmed up with slow flight, glides
and stalls.But after an hour of concentrated TO&L, confused and fixated on
the traffic pattern.
When the INSTRUCTOR comes back, the student doesn't want to practice the
mundane airwork, those crosswind landings are a challenge and fun. The fact
that the skill to really learn don't yet exist means the student feels
overwhelmed. But it is hard to go back to those rectangular patterns,
glides and turns, slow flight and pitch control exercises. So it is
important that your instructors coordinate your lessons. It is valuable to
fly with more than one instructor as you progress in your training.

But you and your instructor are not married nor welded at the hip, if a
problem develops you can change and move on.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFII-ASMELI, A&P
BE400/BE1900-BE300

--
Merry Christmas
Happy New Year
Happy Holidays
Bah Humbug
What Ever


--
The People think the Constitution protects their rights;
But the government sees it as an obstacle to be over-come.
"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
| Chris L wrote:
| > Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
| > getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
| > the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
| > to know which is the best all around school.
| >
| > (1) Pro-Flight Aviation Inc uses a relatively quiet airport (Renton),
| > but it's still close to Sea-Tac International airport. It seems to be
| > the most cost effective, has only 3 teachers, uses a DVD interactive
| > course as the ground school, and one person has told me they are not
| > very customer friendly. A person there said it's very very hard to
| > learn ground school material in a cram 2 weekend course.
| >
| > I bought for $109.99 the "Virtual Test Prep an Aviation Ground School,
| > Private 08 Pilot" to study and prepare for the airplane private pilot
| > FAA Knowledge Exam by ASA. I also bought the book Guided Flight
| > Discovery Private Pilot by Jeppesen, because the owner of the company
| > said I would, basically, have to read certain sections.
| >
| > (2) Galvin Flying Service is expensive, has 25 trainers, but uses the
| > busy (taxing time etc) Boeing airfield.
| >
| > (3) Acuwings is also uses the quiet Renton airport, says they're more
| > customer friendly, will be "starting" a new/free ground training class
| > in Jan, use old aircraft (80's), will teach me on a Tomahawk. A person
| > there told me to learn from an instructor who I like.
| >
| > (4) Wings Aloft has 15 to 20 instructors, requires a membership, and I
| > will call them back to talk to the right person.
| >
| > (5) PremAir is open Monday through Friday, but I have to call them
| > back to see what they offer.
| >
| > (6) Northway Aviation is about an hour away, so it's too far to drive.
| >
| > It appears that I can get the license in about 6 months if I take
| > lessons two to three times a week (Saturday, Sunday, Monday) for about
| > an hour each time.
| >
| > So what should I do,
| > Christopher Lusardi
| >
| > P.S.: It's all for fun and remotely work related. But, I can be able
| > to pretend that I will to become an astronaut some day. [[:-))
|
| I don't know the location and the specific schools in this discussion
| but the general advice you have received from both Bob and Jim is
| excellent and I wouldn't add anything to what they have already said
| except to stress one factor they have covered; that being the most
| important aspect of this equation involves the specific instructor you
| choose after deciding on the venue.
| I can't stress this strongly enough. The instructor you choose and what
| you learn from that instructor will follow you into your tenure as a
| pilot. If the instructor is poor, you can pass the test and will most
| likely pick up on your own what it takes to be a good pilot in X amount
| of time.
| If the instructor is good, you will save all this "catching up" period
| between the test and X and reaching X you will be leaps and bounds ahead
| of where you would be had the CFI been bad.
| Pick carefully. It's a VERY important decision!
|
|
| --
| Dudley Henriques

Jim Macklin wrote:
> I'll add one more think, the instructor/student relationship is very
> personal. Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
> instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
> problem. Often the INSTRUCTOR has a series of step by step lesson plans,
> concentrating on mastering airwork, turns of all kinds, ground reference
> maneuvers, airspeed control and is not ready for "landings" yet.
> The student is happy because they are flying and working hard and learning
> the basics. But if the instructor is ill and another instructor subs a
> problem arises.
> #2 instructor may just say to the student, "You've got 8 hours, so let's
> stay in the pattern and practice take-offs and landings."
>
> So far your student has been doing the take-off and the landing at the end
> of the flight, after being briefed and warmed up with slow flight, glides
> and stalls.But after an hour of concentrated TO&L, confused and fixated on
> the traffic pattern.
> When the INSTRUCTOR comes back, the student doesn't want to practice the
> mundane airwork, those crosswind landings are a challenge and fun. The fact
> that the skill to really learn don't yet exist means the student feels
> overwhelmed. But it is hard to go back to those rectangular patterns,
> glides and turns, slow flight and pitch control exercises. So it is
> important that your instructors coordinate your lessons. It is valuable to
> fly with more than one instructor as you progress in your training.
>
> But you and your instructor are not married nor welded at the hip, if a
> problem develops you can change and move on.
>
>
This is true and can indeed be a problem. The way we handled this was
that any instructor subbing for another one was charged with dealing
with this situation in a prescribed manner;
that being to review the student's log book and become familiar with the
last thing covered, then do the dual session based on where the OTHER
instructor was on the learning curve at that that time with THAT student
In other words, the subbing CFI did just that...sub for the other
instructor, gearing the time spent to where the subbing CFI felt the
OTHER instructor would be going with that lesson.
Our CFI's were told to use tact when in this situation. Any devience
from what the prime instructor had told the student was handled
carefully with the well being of the student in mind at all times.
Instructors who entered into "do it my way" or "my way is the right way"
contests with students didn't last long around me and the we did things.
Our instructors would take something a student was doing wrong in these
situations and guide the student through a correction if required in
technique without ever mentioning they were approaching the issue a bit
differently than another instructor on the staff.
This of course meant that we had all our CFI's in "tune" with the way we
did things so everybody got along, was totally competent, and most
importantly on the same page all the time .
--
Dudley Henriques

> Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
> instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
> problem.

I strongly disagree. When I was taking primary lessons, I found that I often learned more when I had a sub instructor =because= the approach or the material was different. It is good to be exposed to different ways of doing things, and different things in a different order.

Maybe that's just the way =I= am, but I doubt I'm all that unusual, and I would not make the blanket statement that flying with another instructor who doesn't follow the first's plan is "a problem".

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
>> Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another instructor
>> who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a problem.
>
> I strongly disagree. When I was taking primary lessons, I found that I
> often learned more when I had a sub instructor =because= the approach or
> the material was different. It is good to be exposed to different ways
> of doing things, and different things in a different order.
>
> Maybe that's just the way =I= am, but I doubt I'm all that unusual, and
> I would not make the blanket statement that flying with another
> instructor who doesn't follow the first's plan is "a problem".
>
> Jose

It's more correct to say that flying with another instructor (who
confuses the student) can be a problem.

Naturally obtaining different opinions and different approaches to the
flying equation is beneficial. I don't believe Jim meant to convey that
it wasn't. I know I most certainly didn't mean to imply this.
Differing opinion is one thing. Differing opinion applied during a
structured training program DONE INEFFECTIVELY and without consideration
for how the student will react to this differing opinion can indeed be
harmful.
The bottom line is that differing opinion and viewpoint can be helpful
or it can be harmful. How this plays out defines the caliber and quality
of the teacher involved.

--
Dudley Henriques

That is the way it should be, but sometimes is not. It is one of the things
that should be looked for when selecting a school.



"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > I'll add one more think, the instructor/student relationship is very
| > personal. Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
| > instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
| > problem. Often the INSTRUCTOR has a series of step by step lesson
plans,
| > concentrating on mastering airwork, turns of all kinds, ground reference
| > maneuvers, airspeed control and is not ready for "landings" yet.
| > The student is happy because they are flying and working hard and
learning
| > the basics. But if the instructor is ill and another instructor subs a
| > problem arises.
| > #2 instructor may just say to the student, "You've got 8 hours, so let's
| > stay in the pattern and practice take-offs and landings."
| >
| > So far your student has been doing the take-off and the landing at the
end
| > of the flight, after being briefed and warmed up with slow flight,
glides
| > and stalls.But after an hour of concentrated TO&L, confused and fixated
on
| > the traffic pattern.
| > When the INSTRUCTOR comes back, the student doesn't want to practice the
| > mundane airwork, those crosswind landings are a challenge and fun. The
fact
| > that the skill to really learn don't yet exist means the student feels
| > overwhelmed. But it is hard to go back to those rectangular patterns,
| > glides and turns, slow flight and pitch control exercises. So it is
| > important that your instructors coordinate your lessons. It is valuable
to
| > fly with more than one instructor as you progress in your training.
| >
| > But you and your instructor are not married nor welded at the hip, if a
| > problem develops you can change and move on.
| >
| >
| This is true and can indeed be a problem. The way we handled this was
| that any instructor subbing for another one was charged with dealing
| with this situation in a prescribed manner;
| that being to review the student's log book and become familiar with the
| last thing covered, then do the dual session based on where the OTHER
| instructor was on the learning curve at that that time with THAT student
| In other words, the subbing CFI did just that...sub for the other
| instructor, gearing the time spent to where the subbing CFI felt the
| OTHER instructor would be going with that lesson.
| Our CFI's were told to use tact when in this situation. Any devience
| from what the prime instructor had told the student was handled
| carefully with the well being of the student in mind at all times.
| Instructors who entered into "do it my way" or "my way is the right way"
| contests with students didn't last long around me and the we did things.
| Our instructors would take something a student was doing wrong in these
| situations and guide the student through a correction if required in
| technique without ever mentioning they were approaching the issue a bit
| differently than another instructor on the staff.
| This of course meant that we had all our CFI's in "tune" with the way we
| did things so everybody got along, was totally competent, and most
| importantly on the same page all the time .
| --
| Dudley Henriques

If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more than
one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not have
the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation and
the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the experienced
instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.

At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a Chief
Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
just the Henry said previously.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFII-ASMELI, A&P
BE400/BE1900-BE300
former Chief Flight Instructor
Gold Seal

"Jose" > wrote in message
. net...
|> Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
| > instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
| > problem.
|
| I strongly disagree. When I was taking primary lessons, I found that I
often learned more when I had a sub instructor =because= the approach or the
material was different. It is good to be exposed to different ways of doing
things, and different things in a different order.
|
| Maybe that's just the way =I= am, but I doubt I'm all that unusual, and I
would not make the blanket statement that flying with another instructor who
doesn't follow the first's plan is "a problem".
|
| Jose
| --
| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Sorry, was listening to radio and wrote Henry when I meant to say Dudley.
My bad.



"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
| If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more
than
| one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not have
| the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation
and
| the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
| plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the
experienced
| instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.
|
| At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a
Chief
| Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
| just the Henry said previously.
|
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFII-ASMELI, A&P
| BE400/BE1900-BE300
| former Chief Flight Instructor
| Gold Seal
|
| "Jose" > wrote in message
| . net...
||> Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
|| > instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
|| > problem.
||
|| I strongly disagree. When I was taking primary lessons, I found that I
| often learned more when I had a sub instructor =because= the approach or
the
| material was different. It is good to be exposed to different ways of
doing
| things, and different things in a different order.
||
|| Maybe that's just the way =I= am, but I doubt I'm all that unusual, and I
| would not make the blanket statement that flying with another instructor
who
| doesn't follow the first's plan is "a problem".
||
|| Jose
|| --
|| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
|| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
|
|

Right ON.



"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
| Jose wrote:
| >> Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another instructor
| >> who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a problem.
| >
| > I strongly disagree. When I was taking primary lessons, I found that I
| > often learned more when I had a sub instructor =because= the approach or
| > the material was different. It is good to be exposed to different ways
| > of doing things, and different things in a different order.
| >
| > Maybe that's just the way =I= am, but I doubt I'm all that unusual, and
| > I would not make the blanket statement that flying with another
| > instructor who doesn't follow the first's plan is "a problem".
| >
| > Jose
|
| It's more correct to say that flying with another instructor (who
| confuses the student) can be a problem.
|
| Naturally obtaining different opinions and different approaches to the
| flying equation is beneficial. I don't believe Jim meant to convey that
| it wasn't. I know I most certainly didn't mean to imply this.
| Differing opinion is one thing. Differing opinion applied during a
| structured training program DONE INEFFECTIVELY and without consideration
| for how the student will react to this differing opinion can indeed be
| harmful.
| The bottom line is that differing opinion and viewpoint can be helpful
| or it can be harmful. How this plays out defines the caliber and quality
| of the teacher involved.
|
| --
| Dudley Henriques

> It's more correct to say that flying with another instructor (who confuses the student) can be a problem.

Flying with =an= instructor who confuses the student is a problem, irrespective of whether it is the original instructor or a different one. The implication I picked up was that being exposed to a different approach is inherently confusing; it is that with which I disagree. Otherwise what you (and others) have said applies equally to the original instructor as to the substitute one.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
>> It's more correct to say that flying with another instructor (who
>> confuses the student) can be a problem.
>
> Flying with =an= instructor who confuses the student is a problem,
> irrespective of whether it is the original instructor or a different
> one. The implication I picked up was that being exposed to a different
> approach is inherently confusing; it is that with which I disagree.
> Otherwise what you (and others) have said applies equally to the
> original instructor as to the substitute one.
>
> Jose

I'll be sure to look you up if I go back into flight instruction.

--
Dudley Henriques

>
> I'll be sure to look you up if I go back into flight instruction.

Looking for somebody to confuse? That's too easy. :)

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jim Macklin wrote:
> If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more than
> one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not have
> the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation and
> the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
> plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the experienced
> instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.
>
> At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a Chief
> Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
> just the Henry said previously.
>
>
>
It's no use Jim. I've been dealing with Jose now for years. He seems
absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead of the curve
when it comes to us lowly CFI's :-) I don't think the guy has EVER asked
me a question about flight instruction. He just lectures and lectures
and lectures some more.
He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years :-))
Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating and fly
with a few students before telling us how to best do the job.
No flame intended really :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

From the original post...
" So it is important that your instructors coordinate your lessons. It is
valuable to
fly with more than one instructor as you progress in your training."

Note the word plural INSTRUCTORS, LESSONS and more than one instructor.

Part of the problem with instruction is that most students only hear part of
what was said, which makes for incomplete learning.



"Jose" > wrote in message
. net...
|> It's more correct to say that flying with another instructor (who
confuses the student) can be a problem.
|
| Flying with =an= instructor who confuses the student is a problem,
irrespective of whether it is the original instructor or a different one.
The implication I picked up was that being exposed to a different approach
is inherently confusing; it is that with which I disagree. Otherwise what
you (and others) have said applies equally to the original instructor as to
the substitute one.
|
| Jose
| --
| You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
>>
>> I'll be sure to look you up if I go back into flight instruction.
>
> Looking for somebody to confuse? That's too easy. :)
>
> Jose
You're going to LOVE the post I just made about you under Jim.
Sorry if I offended you. No offense meant. Just telling you how it is.

--
Dudley Henriques

It really is true, 95% [made up number by guess] of flight students who get
a rating have learned at least to the 70% level on the knowledge and the
practical test is in the 90% skill range of skill, but all rated pilots were
seen to be "safe" on the day they got their test and left the instructors
nest.

But traditional classroom instructor, if judged by the American public
schools, fails 80% of the students.



"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more
than
| > one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not
have
| > the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation
and
| > the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
| > plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the
experienced
| > instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.
| >
| > At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a
Chief
| > Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
| > just the Henry said previously.
| >
| >
| >
| It's no use Jim. I've been dealing with Jose now for years. He seems
| absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead of the curve
| when it comes to us lowly CFI's :-) I don't think the guy has EVER asked
| me a question about flight instruction. He just lectures and lectures
| and lectures some more.
| He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years :-))
| Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating and fly
| with a few students before telling us how to best do the job.
| No flame intended really :-))
|
| --
| Dudley Henriques

Jim Macklin wrote:
> It really is true, 95% [made up number by guess] of flight students who get
> a rating have learned at least to the 70% level on the knowledge and the
> practical test is in the 90% skill range of skill, but all rated pilots were
> seen to be "safe" on the day they got their test and left the instructors
> nest.
>
> But traditional classroom instructor, if judged by the American public
> schools, fails 80% of the students.
>
>
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> ...
> | Jim Macklin wrote:
> | > If you read the whole thing, you'll see that I support flying with more
> than
> | > one instructor, but particularly with a pre-solo student who does not
> have
> | > the skill or experience to do a TO&L session. But the false expectation
> and
> | > the bad habits, frustration and even failures that are likely create a
> | > plateau or even a big back-slide. I've seen it happen, all the
> experienced
> | > instructors have seen it and many students have experienced it.
> | >
> | > At any school, the instructor need to be coordinated and if there is a
> Chief
> | > Flight Instructor {approved school] they should have procedures in place
> | > just the Henry said previously.
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | It's no use Jim. I've been dealing with Jose now for years. He seems
> | absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead of the curve
> | when it comes to us lowly CFI's :-) I don't think the guy has EVER asked
> | me a question about flight instruction. He just lectures and lectures
> | and lectures some more.
> | He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years :-))
> | Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating and fly
> | with a few students before telling us how to best do the job.
> | No flame intended really :-))
> |
> | --
> | Dudley Henriques
>
>
The classroom advocates (not to mean that classroom training isn't an
asset by any means ) seem to get booged down in understanding that
flight instruction takes place in part at least in a classroom moving at
over a hundred or in many cases over two hundred miles an hour.
The differences involved in teaching in this dynamic scenario just seems
to avoid these people for some reason.
To be quite frank, I get a little tired sometimes of being "lectured" by
these teachers who have absolutely no concept of what it's like to teach
someone to do something correctly at the speed involved with a moving
airplane while at the same time keeping the student they are teaching
from killing them both in the process :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

> [Jose] seems absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead

.... actually, no. And btw I am not (and never have been) a classroom teacher. The screen name comes from teaching C programming online some years back.

> I don't think the guy has EVER asked me a question about flight instruction.

Actually I have. Several. And I've appreciated the answers.

> He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years

My POV is as a student. I know what worked for me, though I will grant that my experience as a flying student is limited.

> Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating

It's on my to-do list. Alas, I can't do everything at once and still post to Usenet. :)

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose wrote:
>> [Jose] seems absolutely convinced that classroom teachers are WAY ahead
>
> ... actually, no. And btw I am not (and never have been) a classroom
> teacher. The screen name comes from teaching C programming online some
> years back.
>
>> I don't think the guy has EVER asked me a question about flight
>> instruction.
>
> Actually I have. Several. And I've appreciated the answers.
>
>> He's been informing me on how to teach people to fly for years
>
> My POV is as a student. I know what worked for me, though I will grant
> that my experience as a flying student is limited.
>
>> Sorry Jose, but you might at least go out and get the rating
>
> It's on my to-do list. Alas, I can't do everything at once and still
> post to Usenet. :)
>
> Jose

Well when and if you do, I will be glad to help you in any way I can (if
asked)
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On 2007-12-25 11:58:42 -0800, Chris L > said:

> Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
> getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
> the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
> to know which is the best all around school.

Far be it from me to say which flight school is best, but you might
want to check us out at PAVCO at Tacoma Narrows in Gig Harbor (I have
some loyalty to the place). The bridge toll might get kind of old,
though.

You have listed some schools that I would avoid on account of their
being too impersonal or too expensive. You have also listed some good
ones. You might want to check out Auburn, too.

>
> So what should I do,
> Christopher Lusardi
>
> P.S.: It's all for fun and remotely work related. But, I can be able
> to pretend that I will to become an astronaut some day. [[:-))

You should start learning to fly. You will never find the 'best' flight
school or instructor, of course. The grass is always greener somewhere
else. AFAIK PAVCO is the only local flight school that has actually
produced an astronaut. :-)
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2007-12-26 09:24:54 -0800, "Jim Macklin"
> said:

> I'll add one more think, the instructor/student relationship is very
> personal. Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
> instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
> problem. Often the INSTRUCTOR has a series of step by step lesson plans,
> concentrating on mastering airwork, turns of all kinds, ground reference
> maneuvers, airspeed control and is not ready for "landings" yet.
> The student is happy because they are flying and working hard and learning
> the basics. But if the instructor is ill and another instructor subs a
> problem arises.
> #2 instructor may just say to the student, "You've got 8 hours, so let's
> stay in the pattern and practice take-offs and landings."

This is the thing, though. Too many instructors do nothing except what
#2 instructor does -- and so their students never learn to fly.

I would say that one of the first things you want to do is ask a
potential instructor's other students how closely the instructor
follows the syllabus. There are several possible answers:

1) "What syllabus?" An instructor without a syllabus will not teach you
to fly. Flee from an instructor who does not use one.

2) "Step by step. If the weather does not allow us to do the next
lesson, we cancel." Not as bad as the first, but it will take a long
time to finish with this instructor, especially in the Pacific
Northwest where the weather is often bad.

3) "We started out using a syllabus, but lately I am just practicing
takeoffs and landings. I have 120 landings and I still am not getting
it right." You will not get them right, either, if you fly with this
instructor. He started out with good intentions, but for some reason he
has stopped instructing. He just likes riding in the airplane with his
students.

4) "We have a syllabus, but if the weather does not work for a
particular lesson, we do something else. If he has a substitute
instructor, he follows the syllabus, too." Good instructor with good
backup. You can bet he will have you fly with a check instructor from
time to time, too, just to confirm his own observations and to make
sure you get a fresh point of view.

I do not like instructors who are abusive -- an instructor should never
use foul language and nearly all of his criticism should be positive.
It is better to say "Try keeping your airspeed at 65 knots on final"
instead of "Your landings were lousy today," but it is a lot easier for
some instructors to say the latter instead of the former.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

C J Campbell wrote:
> On 2007-12-26 09:24:54 -0800, "Jim Macklin"
> > said:
>
>> I'll add one more think, the instructor/student relationship is very
>> personal. Instructors have plan and if a student flies with another
>> instructor who does not follow the principle instructors plan, it is a
>> problem. Often the INSTRUCTOR has a series of step by step lesson plans,
>> concentrating on mastering airwork, turns of all kinds, ground reference
>> maneuvers, airspeed control and is not ready for "landings" yet.
>> The student is happy because they are flying and working hard and
>> learning
>> the basics. But if the instructor is ill and another instructor subs a
>> problem arises.
>> #2 instructor may just say to the student, "You've got 8 hours, so let's
>> stay in the pattern and practice take-offs and landings."
>
> This is the thing, though. Too many instructors do nothing except what
> #2 instructor does -- and so their students never learn to fly.
>
> I would say that one of the first things you want to do is ask a
> potential instructor's other students how closely the instructor follows
> the syllabus. There are several possible answers:
>
> 1) "What syllabus?" An instructor without a syllabus will not teach you
> to fly. Flee from an instructor who does not use one.
>
> 2) "Step by step. If the weather does not allow us to do the next
> lesson, we cancel." Not as bad as the first, but it will take a long
> time to finish with this instructor, especially in the Pacific Northwest
> where the weather is often bad.
>
> 3) "We started out using a syllabus, but lately I am just practicing
> takeoffs and landings. I have 120 landings and I still am not getting it
> right." You will not get them right, either, if you fly with this
> instructor. He started out with good intentions, but for some reason he
> has stopped instructing. He just likes riding in the airplane with his
> students.
>
> 4) "We have a syllabus, but if the weather does not work for a
> particular lesson, we do something else. If he has a substitute
> instructor, he follows the syllabus, too." Good instructor with good
> backup. You can bet he will have you fly with a check instructor from
> time to time, too, just to confirm his own observations and to make sure
> you get a fresh point of view.
>
> I do not like instructors who are abusive -- an instructor should never
> use foul language and nearly all of his criticism should be positive. It
> is better to say "Try keeping your airspeed at 65 knots on final"
> instead of "Your landings were lousy today," but it is a lot easier for
> some instructors to say the latter instead of the former.
>
>

Good instructors ALWAYS, regardless of how the lesson went, end a lesson
with a positive note of praise for a student. You NEVER abuse a student
or take the lesson into negative territoty. This doesn't mean good CFI's
shouldn't criticize or correct. It means that all critiszm and
correcting should be done wrapped up in a positive presentation.
I can't ever remember letting a student end a lesson feeling despondent
or unfulfilled. There's simply no excuse or reason for this ever happening.
ALL student instruction should be positive instruction. If the student
screws something up, any good instructor should be able to deal with it
on a positive basis and without making a student feel bad in any way.
I'd fire a flight instructor working for me in a heartbeat for
approaching flight instruction in any other way than what CJ and I have
both commented on here.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Dec 26, 1:04*pm, Christopher Brian Colohan >
wrote:
> "Bob Gardner" > writes:
> > If you want to get more insight than that...and you
> > should...both ASA, Gleim, and the Kings have DVD courses.
>
> The King courses have "more insight"? *Oh wow. *Those travelling
> courses must be really really shallow -- because when I went through
> the King private pilot DVDs I was constantly frustrated by how little
> explanation there was besides "the FAA wants you to know that..."
>
> Chris

Where can I get the King and Gleim DVD courses, www.airnav.com does
not have them.

I have :

Virtual Test Prep an Aviation Ground School
Bonus! Start Flying! DVD Included
Private 08 Pilot
Study and Prepare for the Airplane Private Pilot FAA Knowledge Exam

Thank you,
Christopher Lusardi

Chris L > writes:
> Where can I get the King and Gleim DVD courses, www.airnav.com does
> not have them.

http://www.kingschools.com/
http://www.gleim.com/

Chris

> Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
> getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
> the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
> to know which is the best all around school.

You've already received great advice about the specific schools in
your area. The only thing I would add is that you will be happier if
you find an older CFI with no aspirations for the airlines.
Especially now, with CFIs being plucked with as little as 250 hours.

Here are three real-world data point for you:

I was lucky enough to train with an "old-timer" who had "been there,
done that", had 20,000 hours in every imaginable aircraft -- and was
happy doing what he was doing. His entire being was focused on
teaching -- not getting to the next level.

My son had an interesting mix of instructors, doing most of his
training with a similar "old timer" (flies a '29 Travel Air on the
barnstorming network), but finishing up with a young guy who is
clearly on his way to the regionals. He actually enjoyed flying with
the young guy more (I think due to their closeness in age) -- but he
admits that he learned far more from the old guy.

My wife finished her ticket with the same CFI -- who jumped to the
regionals the same week that she took her checkride. Luckily, he was
a former banker who had changed careers, which gave him a much
different perspective than the 20-something year old CFI who is
straight-lining into the majors.

Of the people I know who never finished getting their ticket, I think
most of them ran into trouble with their CFI vanishing. Bottom line:
There are enough reasons to quit your training -- you don't need to
make your CFI one of them. Seek out the graybeard in the group.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Dec 27, 3:30*am, Christopher Brian Colohan >
wrote:
> Chris L > writes:
> > Where can I get the King and Gleim DVD courses,www.airnav.comdoes
> > not have them.
>
> http://www.kingschools.com/http://www.gleim.com/
>
> Chris

I just purchased the below. Should I also get what Gleim offers?

Many thanks,

1 Private Pilot Exam Course - DVD for PC $279.00 $279.00

1 Private Pilot Checkride Course - DVD $119.00 $119.00

1 BEST BUY + 4 TAKEOFF DVDS
· Takeoffs & Landings Made Easy - DVD
· VFR Cross-Country Flying - DVD
· Taming Stalls & Spins - DVD
· Communications - DVD FREE! FREE!

1 Pvt Update Sub Svc $20.00 $20.00

FREE GIFTS
QTY DESCRIPTION UNIT PRICE TOTAL
1 Airspace & Communications Cockpit Card

On Dec 26, 7:12*pm, C J Campbell >
wrote:
> On 2007-12-25 11:58:42 -0800, Chris L > said:
>
> > Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
> > getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
> > the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
> > to know which is the best all around school.
>
> Far be it from me to say which flight school is best, but you might
> want to check us out at PAVCO at Tacoma Narrows in Gig Harbor (I have
> some loyalty to the place). The bridge toll might get kind of old,
> though.
>
> You have listed some schools that I would avoid on account of their
> being too impersonal or too expensive. You have also listed some good
> ones. You might want to check out Auburn, too.
>
>
>
> > So what should I do,
> > ChristopherLusardi
>
> > P.S.: It's all for fun and remotely work related. But, I can be able
> > to pretend that I will to become an astronaut some day. [[:-))
>
> You should start learning to fly. You will never find the 'best' flight
> school or instructor, of course. The grass is always greener somewhere
> else. AFAIK PAVCO is the only local flight school that has actually
> produced an astronaut. :-)
> --
> Waddling Eagle
> World Famous Flight Instructor

Is that astronaut Love? He has a PhD in something like astronomy which
makes me shy away from his path.

Anyway, what is the bridge toll, and do they offer monthy tickets?

And, is it really just a coincidence that Pavco produced the only
astronaut?

Thank you,

Recently, Chris L > posted:

> Hello, I know virtually nothing about flying, but am planning on
> getting a private flying license. I have already talked to a few of
> the schools in and around the Tukwila/Renton Washington area, and want
> to know which is the best all around school.
>
You've already received many useful responses from others, and I can only
think of one area to expand on what has already been presented; what kind
of student are you? The "best" school will be the one that best fits your
style of learning. Add to that any applicable knowledge that you might
already have about aviation, for example whether you built and flew model
aircraft, and it might be easier to select the kind of materials that
would convey the necessary knowledge best. Browse a few, and see what
connects.

My flight training took over a year because of limited time and resources,
so I had a few instructors and since then several more for BFRs and the
annual flight reviews that our club's insurance requires. In my opinion,
you won't stick with an instructor that is a bad match, so I wouldn't put
too much emphasis on trying to guess the good from the bad ahead of time.

Every experience can offer something useful, so just get started and let
the rest sort itself out as you go.

Regards,

Neil

On Dec 27, 8:47*am, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>
> You've already received great advice about the specific schools in
> your area. *The only thing I would add is that you will be happier if
> you find an older CFI with no aspirations for the airlines.
> Especially now, with CFIs being plucked with as little as 250 hours.

Chris, use caution here, Jay Honeck is not a CFI, he is a hotelist in
the Midwest. The fact of the mater is that if you have a good working
relationship with your instructor, his or her age is not important.


> I was lucky enough to train with an "old-timer" who had "been there,
> done that", had 20,000 hours in every imaginable aircraft -- and was
> happy doing what he was doing. *His entire being was focused on
> teaching -- not getting to the next level.

20,000 hours ? Jay you stud! No wonder you know everything .
>
> My son had an interesting mix of instructors, doing most of his
> training with a similar "old timer" (flies a '29 Travel Air on the
> barnstorming network), but finishing up with a young guy who is
> clearly on his way to the regionals.

OK, for the hundreth time, your son is a pilot, thanks for reminding
us.


* He actually enjoyed flying with
> the young guy more (I think due to their closeness in age) -- but he
> admits that he learned far more from the old guy.

Bashing the airline guys again.


>
> My wife finished her ticket with the same CFI -- who jumped to the
> regionals the same week that she took her checkride. *Luckily, he was
> a former banker who had changed careers, which gave him a much
> different perspective than the 20-something year old CFI who is
> straight-lining into the majors.

Who ask about your wife?
>
> Of the people I know who never finished getting their ticket, I think
> most of them ran into trouble with their CFI vanishing. *Bottom line:
> There are enough reasons to quit your training -- you don't need to
> make your CFI one of them. *Seek out the graybeard in the group.

Arbitrary stuff.
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination" Shameless plug

"F. Baum" > wrote

> 20,000 hours ? Jay you stud! No wonder you know everything .

I'm beginning to think F. Baum is a bertie the bunyip sock puppet.

In any case, the sport of Jay bashing has made me decide that this is a
poster I no longer need to read.
--
Jim in NC

"Chris L" > wrote in message
news:8f3acfd0-53d8-4d64-8053-
> http://www.kingschools.com/http://www.gleim.com/
>
>> Chris

> I just purchased the below. Should I also get what Gleim offers?


The only Gleim (or ASA) book I would recommend beyond what you already
appear to have is this one:
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/sep/701 (The written
test/"knowledge test" prep)


All the questions for the written, as well as all of the answers and
explanations for each. Too much to memorize but you'll walk into the test
knowing exactly what to expect.

-c

On 2007-12-27 10:17:14 -0800, Chris L > said:

>
> Is that astronaut Love? He has a PhD in something like astronomy which
> makes me shy away from his path.

No, it was Pete Siebold of SpaceShipOne fame. He did the FAA
certification flights for White Knight and several of the test flights
for SpaceShip One. He started out as a line guy at PAVCO and worked his
way up to CFI-I and MEI, eventually going to work for Rutan. Siebold
was supposed to make one of the final flights in SpaceShip One, but was
grounded because of a head cold.

>
> Anyway, what is the bridge toll, and do they offer monthy tickets?

I believe it is $3.50, but you can get a Good To Go transponder that
reduces the toll to $1.75. There is no time limit or minimum number of
tolls that you have to use. The toll is charged only when going
eastbound, not westbound.

>
> And, is it really just a coincidence that Pavco produced the only
> astronaut?
>
> Thank you,

Mike Pickett knows Burt Rutan and introduced Pete Siebold to him,
although not for that specific job. Originally, Siebold was just
supposed to fly Rutan's StarShip.

The school has been around for about thirty years, has a good safety
record, and is infested with many interesting characters, some of whom
did things like fly for Air America.

We require and use the Cessna syllabus.
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

> > 20,000 hours ? Jay you stud! No wonder you know everything .
>
> I'm beginning to think F. Baum is a bertie the bunyip sock puppet.

Ya think? It would be nice to think that there couldn't possibly be
*two* such bitter "pilots" like them...

> In any case, the sport of Jay bashing has made me decide that this is a
> poster I no longer need to read.

Ah, shoot, Jim -- I have more faith in people than that. Pilots are
generally pretty sharp people who can spot a fool with an axe to grind
from a mile off. Bitter, unhappy folks like Bunyip and Baum have such
difficulty with cordial written communication that spotting them in
this crowd is quite simple, making them easy to filter out -- even for
newbie posters like Chris.

All Chris (or anyone else) has to do is Google our posts to see who is
real, and who is a sock puppet. The evidence is there for anyone who
wants to see it.

Besides -- sometimes B&B are quite funny, usually in completely
unintentional ways. If you killfile them, you'll miss all their
accidental wit.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Dec 27, 8:08*pm, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > I'm beginning to think F. Baum is a bertie the bunyip sock puppet.
>
> Ya think? *It would be nice to think that there couldn't possibly be
> *two* such bitter "pilots" like them...

No sock puppeting here, Im sure BTB has better things to do.
>
> > In any case, the sport of Jay bashing has made me decide that this is a
> > poster I no longer need to read.

Interesting Jim, after your "Sperm Bucket" remarks, I feel the same
whay about your posts.

>
> Ah, shoot, Jim -- I have more faith in people than that. *Pilots are
> generally pretty sharp people who can spot a fool with an axe to grind
> from a mile off.

Ah, Golly Gee, Jay --Speaking of "Fool with an ax", whats with your
hardon toward Europeans, Inner city kids, Airline guys, etc.. Is that
why you constantly remind everyone of your aviation accomplishments.
Cant help what I do fer a liven, but I own and operate a GA
aireoplane, so I figger that gives me as much right to be here as
anyone.

>*Bitter, unhappy folks like Bunyip and Baum have such
> difficulty with cordial written communication that spotting them in
> this crowd is quite simple, making them easy to filter out -- even for
> newbie posters like Chris.

Till Ya ask somethin that requires some good ol aviatin knowlege. And
speekin O bitter, I was just tryin to argue for the integrity of RAP
and you responded with personal attacks and vulgarity (On Christmas no
less). In my book that makes you the uptight one.
>
> All Chris (or anyone else) has to do is Google our posts to see who is
> real, and who is a sock puppet. *The evidence is there for anyone who
> wants to see it.

Whats funny is that you and Jim seem to be about it when it comes to
me , but the list of people making negative posts toward you is much
greater over the years. All Chris (Or anyone else ) has to do is
google your threads . As you always point out, you have made lots of
friends, if you have to maintain your off topic bantor with them why
not just email them offline so you dont get on everyone's nerves.

>
> Besides -- sometimes B&B are quite funny, usually in completely
> unintentional ways. *If you killfile them, you'll miss all their
> accidental wit.

I dont get individual posts from this list otherwize, Id just KF you.
Ive got an ider, Instead of boring everyone on Usnet with our mutual
distain, why dont we hook up at S&F and you can tell me what you think
to my face?

>
> :-(
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993www.AlexisParkInn.com
Another shameless plug. Ya know, I help run an aviation business on
the side, but I certainly do not see fit to advertise it here, Why do
you see fit to abuse this list in such a manner.

"Morgans" > wrote in news:mmVcj.93$mp7.33
@newsfe07.lga:

>
> "F. Baum" > wrote
>
>> 20,000 hours ? Jay you stud! No wonder you know everything .
>
> I'm beginning to think F. Baum is a bertie the bunyip sock puppet.
>


Mmm, no. i necver use sockpuppets in the traditional sense, i.e, to pat
myself on the back.
Also I'd pick something much sportier or a name that would have some
meaning.
Like Michael Detroyat, for instance.


> In any case, the sport of Jay bashing has made me decide that this is a
> poster I no longer need to read.


Jay asks to be bashed


He really does.


Bertie

Jay Honeck > wrote in news:a91954b4-b86f-45dd-a8a2-
:

>> > 20,000 hours ? Jay you stud! No wonder you know everything .
>>
>> I'm beginning to think F. Baum is a bertie the bunyip sock puppet.
>
> Ya think? It would be nice to think that there couldn't possibly be
> *two* such bitter "pilots" like them...
>
>> In any case, the sport of Jay bashing has made me decide that this is a
>> poster I no longer need to read.
>
> Ah, shoot, Jim -- I have more faith in people than that. Pilots are
> generally pretty sharp people who can spot a fool with an axe to grind
> from a mile off. Bitter, unhappy folks like Bunyip and Baum have such
> difficulty with cordial written communication that spotting them in
> this crowd is quite simple, making them easy to filter out -- even for
> newbie posters like Chris.
>

Ooow the irony !

God I love usenet.

Bertie>

On Dec 27, 10:24*pm, C J Campbell >
wrote:
> On 2007-12-27 10:17:14 -0800, Chris L > said:
>
> > Is that astronaut Love? He has a PhD in something like astronomy which
> > makes me shy away from his path.
>
> No, it was Pete Siebold of SpaceShipOne fame.

I want to thank everyone for helping me!

I've started studying the ASA Private Pilot DVD. The DVD appears to be
very straight forward. What should be my expectations. What is the
difference between getting the flying license and the DVD. In other
words, how much can I expect to get out of the DVDs. I am, currently,
planning on studying (almost memorizing) all my DVDs and then going
to the school. What do you think I should do?

I am waiting for the Kings DVDs to get to me. I'll start studying them
once I receive them.

Do you think I should first learn all of the ASA DVD then the Kings
DVD, or mix the DVDs up in some way.

Should I purchase the Gleim DVD. How much more will I learn with it?

Someone at ProFlight said if I want to save money to wait till good
weather (spring or summer) before flying. What do you think. Will it
save me money and also mean a long delay in getting the license.

As a student what are my limitations on when I can fly? How clear does
the weather have to be, and how do I know when I have the correct
weather?

I am leaning towards the Acuwings flying school because they offer 1
free hour (both for plane and instructor tagging along) each time I
purchase 10 hours.

That stuff I posted about an astronaut was only holiday cheer on my
part because I was going to the Museum of Flight (http://
www.museumofflight.org/).

Thank you,
Christopher Lusardi

On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:30:00 -0800 (PST), Chris L >
wrote:

> What is the
>difference between getting the flying license and the DVD

I think of it as the difference between going to a war movie and being
under enemy fire.

Still, I'm told by pilots I respect that flight simulators do cut down
on the flight time required to get certificated. The DVD of course is
not a flight sim, but it is a different way to cram knowledge into
your head, and you need that knowledge to pass the written exam. It
sounds as though you're planning to take a residential course, which
is very intense, so it might really help to have advance knowledge. My
lessons were spread out over a year to solo and another year to pass
the flight check (I was 67 when I started), so I'd forgotten
everything I learned in ground school by the time I was good to go.
With the DVD, of course, you can refresh as often as you like.


Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com