When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.

Here's my question. Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
definition of it?

T

:)

Tman wrote:
> When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
> aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
> It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.
>
> Here's my question. Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
> definition of it?
>
> T
>
> :)

Not by any definition of the word I've ever seen.

On Sep 11, 1:53*pm, Tman <x@x> wrote:
> When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
> aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
> It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.
>
> Here's my question. *Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
> definition of it?
>
> T
>
> :)

Ahhh...does that make ANY teacher a syncophant for following
acknowledged techniques?
I think that is kind of a dumb question.
Ol S&B a teacher for over 50 years and a CFI with more than 6000
hours of dual given.

On Sep 11, 1:53*pm, Tman <x@x> wrote:
> When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
> aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
> It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.
>
> Here's my question. *Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
> definition of it?
>
> T
>
> :)

T
Did I miss part of it ;)
Ol S&B

On Sep 11, 12:53*pm, Tman <x@x> wrote:
> When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
> aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
> It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.
>
> Here's my question. *Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
> definition of it?
>
> T
>
> :)

A sycophant is someone who, out of their own low self-confidence,
seeks validation and acceptance from a person of perceived higher
authority by unabashedly complimenting and agreeing with that person.

A good example of a sycophant is a low self-esteem guy who does
errands, and favors for a woman. "Whipped", if you will.

If the CFI in your example was giving undeserved compliments, and if
he was only doing it because he perceived you as being more
influential, then yes he is a sycophant. People referred to "Yes men"
are also sycophants.

On Sep 11, 11:53*am, Tman <x@x> wrote:
> When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
> aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
> It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.
>
> Here's my question. *Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
> definition of it?

I'm not sure if this is suppose to be a serious question or not.
Flying is challenging. There isn't a pilot on this list who can't be
challenged by a good CFI. To spend the entire time telling a pilot
about his short comings isn't productive because at a certain point
people just turn off; either because they just assume they suck or
because they assume the CFI is full of crap. Mixing the good comments
with the feedback gives the pilot a balance.

-Robert, CFII

Tman wrote:
> When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
> aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
> It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.
>
> Here's my question. Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
> definition of it?
>
> T
>
> :)

Depends on the instructor.

Generally, from the way you have worded your question, I see no problem
at all with what this instructor has done.
It is common practice, and indeed PROPER practice among GOOD
instructors, to interface compliments and encouragement along with
constructive criticism during any dual session with a student.
It is noteworthy (from the inference of your post) that it's not
essential or even required that the student have actually done something
completely right or correct as a requisite for receiving such
compliments and encouragement from an instructor. In fact, in many
instances where such positive reinforcement is offered to a student by a
CFI, the reason for it might very well simply be the first recognition
by the student of a small part of what is required to understand a
specific action or procedure.
Praise judicially used by CFI's is a vital tool used to help instill
much needed confidence in a student.
It's the proper use and timing of praise and criticism, that helps
define a GOOD flight instructor.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Sep 11, 3:43*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> On Sep 11, 1:53*pm, Tman <x@x> wrote:
>
> > When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
> > aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
> > It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.
>
> > Here's my question. *Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
> > definition of it?
>
> > T
>
> > :)
>
> T
> Did I miss part of it ;)
> Ol S&B

Tman
To add to my comments and offer up some observations....... I am
currently senior instructor for a military training/screening program.
I take my responsibility very seriously knowing these young pilots
will potentially be faced with hostile response when they go
operational. Having been shot at and hit tends to color your
perspective.
I have a reputation for being hard and fair. A not uncommon statement
I hear from students is, "He will bust your balls for everything and
you'll learn more from him in an hour than you have learned in the
entire program."
Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
but the intensity doesn't ease up.
Now if you read all the FAA propaganda, I can't possibly be an
effective instructor as I frequently violate all the rules and
guidelines.for fundamentals of instruction. I went thru all that BS
when I was in USMC Drill Instructor school back in the mid 50's.
It often takes a student several hours before I finally tell them they
are doing good. And when I do, they are smiling for days. I'm sure
anyone here can recall favorite teachers and describe why they are
favorites. The challenge is to recall all the mediocre ones? With my 8
younger CFI's, I am watching their techniques carefully and reading
the critiques with an eye to maintaining our standards at a high
level.
I don't see any of them as syncophants.<gg>
Best Regards
Ol S&B

Hey. I'd pay for a couple hours of that. (really).
I've had a variety of CFI's and I find that flying with a 'hardass' may
not make your day but you sure learn a lot.
Are you around the New England area and have time for the occasional
student...
T


Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> On Sep 11, 3:43 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>> On Sep 11, 1:53 pm, Tman <x@x> wrote:
>>
>>> When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
>>> aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism.
>>> It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training.
>>> Here's my question. Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
>>> definition of it?
>>> T
>>> :)
>> T
>> Did I miss part of it ;)
>> Ol S&B
>
> Tman
> To add to my comments and offer up some observations....... I am
> currently senior instructor for a military training/screening program.
> I take my responsibility very seriously knowing these young pilots
> will potentially be faced with hostile response when they go
> operational. Having been shot at and hit tends to color your
> perspective.
> I have a reputation for being hard and fair. A not uncommon statement
> I hear from students is, "He will bust your balls for everything and
> you'll learn more from him in an hour than you have learned in the
> entire program."
> Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
> up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
> all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
> don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
> but the intensity doesn't ease up.
> Now if you read all the FAA propaganda, I can't possibly be an
> effective instructor as I frequently violate all the rules and
> guidelines.for fundamentals of instruction. I went thru all that BS
> when I was in USMC Drill Instructor school back in the mid 50's.
> It often takes a student several hours before I finally tell them they
> are doing good. And when I do, they are smiling for days. I'm sure
> anyone here can recall favorite teachers and describe why they are
> favorites. The challenge is to recall all the mediocre ones? With my 8
> younger CFI's, I am watching their techniques carefully and reading
> the critiques with an eye to maintaining our standards at a high
> level.
> I don't see any of them as syncophants.<gg>
> Best Regards
> Ol S&B

On Sep 12, 8:55*am, Tman <x@x> wrote:
> Hey. *I'd pay for a couple hours of that. *(really).
> I've had a variety of CFI's and I find that flying with a 'hardass' may
> not make your day but you sure learn a lot.
> Are you around the New England area and have time for the occasional
> student...
> T
>
> Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 11, 3:43 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> >> On Sep 11, 1:53 pm, Tman <x@x> wrote:
>
> >>> When taking lessons with a CFI, I've often had them compliment various
> >>> aspects of my performance, while also offering constructive criticism..
> >>> It seems that this behavior is right out of the pages of CFI training..
> >>> Here's my question. *Does that make the CFI a sycophant, by the formal
> >>> definition of it?
> >>> T
> >>> :)
> >> T
> >> Did I miss part of it ;)
> >> Ol S&B
>
> > Tman
> > To add to my comments and offer up some observations....... I am
> > currently senior instructor for a military training/screening program.
> > I take my responsibility very seriously knowing these young pilots
> > will potentially be faced with hostile response when they go
> > operational. Having been shot at and hit tends to color your
> > perspective.
> > I have a reputation for being hard and fair. A not uncommon statement
> > I hear from students is, "He will bust your balls for everything and
> > you'll learn more from him in an hour than you have learned in the
> > entire program."
> > Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
> > up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
> > all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
> > don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
> > but the intensity doesn't ease up.
> > Now if you read all the FAA propaganda, I can't possibly be an
> > effective instructor as I frequently violate all the rules and
> > guidelines.for fundamentals of instruction. I went thru all that BS
> > when I was in USMC Drill Instructor school back in the mid 50's.
> > It often takes a student several hours before I finally tell them they
> > are doing good. And when I do, they are smiling for days. I'm sure
> > anyone here can recall favorite teachers and describe why they are
> > favorites. The challenge is to recall all the mediocre ones? With my 8
> > younger CFI's, I am watching their techniques carefully and reading
> > the critiques with an eye to maintaining our standards at a high
> > level.
> > I don't see any of them as syncophants.<gg>
> > Best Regards
> > *Ol S&B- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Tman
No, I'm down on the gulf coast near Pensacola, FL. The home of Naval
Aviation. Check our website;Skywarriorinc.com and you can even find a
picture of me! (whoopee) I'm the one looking so serious and ready to
launch......<gg>

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote
> Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
> up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
> all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
> don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
> but the intensity doesn't ease up.

Sorry Rocky.....I don't buy into that method. My training programs are
intensive...not me. I'm there to help the student beat the program.
Profanity is out of the question. Not one of my Naval Aviator instructors
at Pensacola ever resorted to the use of profanity, the old "Officer and
Gentleman" routine that an ex-Drill Sargent might not understand.

After 9 years as a Naval Aviator with combat time in Vietnam, I then spent
25 year as a B-707/B-727 airline pilot with probably 10 years spent as an
FAA designated Instructor Pilot, Manager of Flightcrew Training, Chief Pilot,
and a stint as Director of Operations.

I have been a civilian flight instructor for 38 years with a 100% pass rate
with not one Private Pilot student requiring more than 50 hours of training
to acquire an airman certificate.

You really don't have to curse and swear, you know, your looks are mean
enough. :) :) :)

Bob Moore
PanAm (retired)

On Sep 12, 1:23*pm, Robert Moore > wrote:
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" *wrote
>
> > Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
> > up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
> > all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
> > don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
> > but the intensity doesn't ease up.
>
> Sorry Rocky.....I don't buy into that method. My training programs are
> intensive...not me. *I'm there to help the student beat the program.
> Profanity is out of the question. Not one of my Naval Aviator instructors
> at Pensacola ever resorted to the use of profanity, the old "Officer and
> Gentleman" routine that an ex-Drill Sargent might not understand.
>
> After 9 years as a Naval Aviator with combat time in Vietnam, I then spent
> 25 year as a B-707/B-727 airline pilot with probably 10 years spent as an
> FAA designated Instructor Pilot, Manager of Flightcrew Training, Chief Pilot,
> and a stint as Director of Operations.
>
> I have been a civilian flight instructor for 38 years with a 100% pass rate
> with not one Private Pilot student requiring more than 50 hours of training
> to acquire an airman certificate.
>
> You really don't have to curse and swear, you know, your looks are mean
> enough. *:) *:) *:)
>
> Bob Moore
> PanAm (retired)

Hey Bob
You know, I have really enjoyed your posts over the years and you are
a delight and a real pro. It all boils down to individual techniques.
I know guys who never raise their voice and are really scary. I know
guys who are really tough and really religious who never use profanity
except on rare occasions. All of them are respected and proficient.
It just works for me and it appears, expected? I'll ammend my
presentation according to the student and it seems to work fine. Isn't
that what being a teacher is all about? Teaching effectively?
I don't want to teach a student to beat the program. I want my
students to understand what they are trying to do within the program
and become proficient aviators. Thinking pilots rather than, robots.
My rationalization being, many years back (late 60's), I was focused
on autorotations and didn't hear anything my instructor said. After
that and a discussion, my personal technique became one of not letting
the student not hear me! Of course I like to think it is more refined
than that now Still, my students frequently tell me thay can still
hear me "chirping" in their ears while they are flying and staying
ahead of the events.
My son is just over 2 yrs old and flexing his new muscles and finding
his place in the world. I have to smack his little butt to let him
know when he reached the particular limit. Then he crawls into my lap,
wipes away his tears, grins at me and says "My Dadda"
Thats when it takes discipline to maintain ......... <ggg>
Best Professional and Personal Regards
Rocky Kemp

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
> up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
> all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
> don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
> but the intensity doesn't ease up.

I believe the scientific method says you should have tried instructing
without the profanity and see if it made any difference in your success
rate and student's perception.

On Sep 12, 2:07*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
> > Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
> > up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
> > all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
> > don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
> > but the intensity doesn't ease up.
>
> I believe the scientific method says you should have tried instructing
> without the profanity and see if it made any difference in your success
> rate and student's perception.

I have. And I continue to use the most effective method for me. My
students proficiency tells the story.

On Sep 12, 2:59*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> On Sep 12, 1:23*pm, Robert Moore > wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Ol Shy & Bashful" *wrote
>
> > > Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
> > > up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
> > > all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
> > > don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
> > > but the intensity doesn't ease up.
>
> > Sorry Rocky.....I don't buy into that method. My training programs are
> > intensive...not me. *I'm there to help the student beat the program.
> > Profanity is out of the question. Not one of my Naval Aviator instructors
> > at Pensacola ever resorted to the use of profanity, the old "Officer and
> > Gentleman" routine that an ex-Drill Sargent might not understand.
>
> > After 9 years as a Naval Aviator with combat time in Vietnam, I then spent
> > 25 year as a B-707/B-727 airline pilot with probably 10 years spent as an
> > FAA designated Instructor Pilot, Manager of Flightcrew Training, Chief Pilot,
> > and a stint as Director of Operations.
>
> > I have been a civilian flight instructor for 38 years with a 100% pass rate
> > with not one Private Pilot student requiring more than 50 hours of training
> > to acquire an airman certificate.
>
> > You really don't have to curse and swear, you know, your looks are mean
> > enough. *:) *:) *:)
>
> > Bob Moore
> > PanAm (retired)
>
> Hey Bob
> You know, I have really enjoyed your posts over the years and you are
> a delight and a real pro. It all boils down to individual techniques.
> I know guys who never raise their voice and are really scary. I know
> guys who are really tough and really religious who never use profanity
> except on rare occasions. All of them are respected and proficient.
> It just works for me and it appears, expected? I'll ammend my
> presentation according to the student and it seems to work fine. Isn't
> that what being a teacher is all about? Teaching effectively?
> I don't want to teach a student to beat the program. I want my
> students to understand what they are trying to do within the program
> and become proficient aviators. Thinking pilots rather than, robots.
> My rationalization being, many years back (late 60's), I was focused
> on autorotations and didn't hear anything my instructor said. After
> that and a discussion, my personal technique became one of not letting
> the student not hear me! Of course I like to think it is more refined
> than that now Still, my students frequently tell me thay can still
> hear me "chirping" in their ears while they are flying and staying
> ahead of the events.
> My son is just over 2 yrs old and flexing his new muscles and finding
> his place in the world. I have to smack his little butt to let him
> know when he reached the particular limit. Then he crawls into my lap,
> wipes away his tears, grins at me and says "My Dadda"
> Thats when it takes discipline to maintain ......... <ggg>
> Best Professional and Personal Regards
> Rocky Kemp

Ol Shy, I have to do some math here. Let's see, first became a CFI in
67? It's not 2008, so that's like, let's see, carry the one -- uh, 41
years ago. CFI at say age 21? Hmm, 2 year old son? You da man!

It happens, just not often. Congratulations.

On Sep 12, 3:30*pm, a > wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2:59*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 12, 1:23*pm, Robert Moore > wrote:
>
> > > "Ol Shy & Bashful" *wrote
>
> > > > Right up front I tell students I get pretty intensive in the cockpit
> > > > up to and including profanity. Does it work for me? If you check with
> > > > all the students I've flown with they will tell you YES. Certainly I
> > > > don't go overboard with any profanity (depending on who you talk to)
> > > > but the intensity doesn't ease up.
>
> > > Sorry Rocky.....I don't buy into that method. My training programs are
> > > intensive...not me. *I'm there to help the student beat the program..
> > > Profanity is out of the question. Not one of my Naval Aviator instructors
> > > at Pensacola ever resorted to the use of profanity, the old "Officer and
> > > Gentleman" routine that an ex-Drill Sargent might not understand.
>
> > > After 9 years as a Naval Aviator with combat time in Vietnam, I then spent
> > > 25 year as a B-707/B-727 airline pilot with probably 10 years spent as an
> > > FAA designated Instructor Pilot, Manager of Flightcrew Training, Chief Pilot,
> > > and a stint as Director of Operations.
>
> > > I have been a civilian flight instructor for 38 years with a 100% pass rate
> > > with not one Private Pilot student requiring more than 50 hours of training
> > > to acquire an airman certificate.
>
> > > You really don't have to curse and swear, you know, your looks are mean
> > > enough. *:) *:) *:)
>
> > > Bob Moore
> > > PanAm (retired)
>
> > Hey Bob
> > You know, I have really enjoyed your posts over the years and you are
> > a delight and a real pro. It all boils down to individual techniques.
> > I know guys who never raise their voice and are really scary. I know
> > guys who are really tough and really religious who never use profanity
> > except on rare occasions. All of them are respected and proficient.
> > It just works for me and it appears, expected? I'll ammend my
> > presentation according to the student and it seems to work fine. Isn't
> > that what being a teacher is all about? Teaching effectively?
> > I don't want to teach a student to beat the program. I want my
> > students to understand what they are trying to do within the program
> > and become proficient aviators. Thinking pilots rather than, robots.
> > My rationalization being, many years back (late 60's), I was focused
> > on autorotations and didn't hear anything my instructor said. After
> > that and a discussion, my personal technique became one of not letting
> > the student not hear me! Of course I like to think it is more refined
> > than that now Still, my students frequently tell me thay can still
> > hear me "chirping" in their ears while they are flying and staying
> > ahead of the events.
> > My son is just over 2 yrs old and flexing his new muscles and finding
> > his place in the world. I have to smack his little butt to let him
> > know when he reached the particular limit. Then he crawls into my lap,
> > wipes away his tears, grins at me and says "My Dadda"
> > Thats when it takes discipline to maintain ......... <ggg>
> > Best Professional and Personal Regards
> > Rocky Kemp
>
> Ol Shy, I have to do some math here. Let's see, first became a CFI in
> 67? It's not 2008, so that's like, let's see, carry the one -- uh, 41
> years ago. CFI at say age 21? Hmm, 2 year old son? You da man!
>
> *It happens, just not often. Congratulations.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thank you. You can't begin to know how much pleasure this little man
gives me. Yep I'm up there in age and my wife is 29 years my junior.
One of those lifetime stories. He now knows how to salute and sees it
on TV with the military channel and hollers to get my attention while
he gives me a salute. Delightful to call cadence while he marches down
the hallway and a big grin. When I softly call him "Pvt Kemp" while
waking him up in the morning at 0500 and he rolls over saying "non
nonnoo nooo" and then he sits up saying "Dadda". What an absolute
delght and affirmation about what MY life is all about.
He cocks his head, holds his hand to his ear and looks around when he
hears a helicopter,and says "Sshhhhh hecopter" or something like that.
I'll take him flying shortly and hopefully with both airplane and
helicopter. He sure knows the difference.
p.s. I'm 72 and having the best time of my life.

"Tman" <x@x> wrote

> I've had a variety of CFI's and I find that flying with a 'hardass' may
> not make your day but you sure learn a lot.

But have no doubt that you can learn _just_ as much from a highly competent,
demanding instructor, with a much more gentle teaching style, too.

Like Dan said, teaching is finding out how your student learns best, and by
using a variety of techniques, you will be able to find out how your student
learns best.

I'm not surprised that a prospective military candidate does well with a
firm, demanding hand, with a bit of colorful language thrown in. The same
technique applied to a 40 year old housewife would probably not be quite
appropriate. <g>

Of course, an instructor can not be something he is not, and teach in a way
that he can not relate to. It would still be a surprise to me, that any
instructor could be effective and use the same exact teaching style with
_every_ student.

It has always seemed to me that the very best teachers have a gift to be
able to teach almost without thinking about what will work best for each
student. That gift combined with good command of the subject being taught
results in an effective teacher, able to maximize the learning taking place,
no matter the student, as long as the student is receptive.
--
Jim in NC