I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot. I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description says:

The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of requirements for this program.

* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot License.
* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
* Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot License.

The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.

majortom546 wrote:
> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
> I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
> my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
> program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
> transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
> says:
>
> The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
> requirements for this program.
>
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
> License.
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
> License.
>
> The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer
> to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a
> degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.
*
*
*
It has been done before - but this is possibly the toughest, unlikeliest
way to an airline job. Getting a four year degree. YES!
Getting a pilot slot in the Navy or AirForce? YES?

But if an hour of flight costs $100 and it will take you 45 hours (at
least) then that's a $5000 budget, not $27 grand

Brian W

On Jun 26, 6:28*am, Brian Whatcott > wrote:
> majortom546 wrote:
> > I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot..
> > I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
> > my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
> > program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
> > transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
> > says:
>
> > The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
> > requirements for this program.
>
> > * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
> > License.
> > * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
> > * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
> > License.
>
> > The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer
> > to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a
> > degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.
>
> * *
> *
> *
> It has been done before - but this is possibly the toughest, unlikeliest
> way to an airline job. * * Getting a four year degree. YES!
> Getting a pilot slot in the Navy or AirForce? YES?
>
> But if an hour of flight costs $100 and it will take you 45 hours (at
> least) then that's a $5000 budget, not $27 grand
>
> Brian W

And not to rain on your parade (much) but if you were a major carrier
(and hiring, which they aren't) would you hire someone with military
experience (any military is better than no military) and a college
degree or someone with schooling but not that much experience? Just
to earn $25K/yr?

For most folks its more the life depicted in a recent New York Times
article:

Free registration:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/nyregion/17pilot.html

Excerpted:

May 17, 2009
Pilots’ Lives Defy Glamorous Stereotype
By DAVID M. HALBFINGER, MATTHEW L. WALD and CHRISTOPHER DREW

This article was reported by David M. Halbfinger, Matthew L. Wald and
Christopher Drew, and written by Mr. Halbfinger.

Alex Lapointe, a 25-year-old co-pilot for a regional airline, says he
routinely lifts off knowing he has gotten less sleep than he needs.
And once or twice a week, he says, he sees the captain next to him
struggling to stay alert.

Neil A. Weston, also 25, went $100,000 into debt to train for a co-
pilot’s job that pays him $25,000 annually. He carries sandwiches in a
cooler from his home in Dubuque, Iowa, bought his first uniform for
$400, and holds out hope of tripling his salary by moving into the
captain’s seat, then up to a major carrier. Assuming, that is, the
majors start hiring again.

Capt. Paul Nietz, 58, who recently retired from a regional airline,
said his schedule wore him down and cost him three marriages. His
workweek typically began with a 2:30 a.m. wake-up in northern Michigan
and a 6 a.m. flight to his Chicago home bases. There, he would wait
for his first assignment, a noon departure.

By the time he parked his aircraft at the last gate of the night, he
was exhausted. But he would be due back at work eight hours and 15
minutes later. “At the very most, if you’re the kind of person that
could walk into a hotel room, strip and lay down, you might get four
and a half hours of sleep,” he said. “And I was very senior. I was one
of the fortunate guys.”

The National Transportation Safety Board’s inquiry into the Feb. 12
crash of Continental Connection Flight 3407 outside Buffalo has
highlighted the operations of the nation’s regional airlines, a sector
of the aviation industry that has grown to account for half the
country’s airline flights and a quarter of its passengers.

The details of that world have surprised many Americans — the
strikingly low pay for new pilots; the rigors of flying multiple
flights, at lower altitudes and thus often in worse weather than
pilots on longer routes, while scrambling to get enough sleep; the
relative inexperience of pilots at the smaller airlines, whose
training standards are the same, but whose skills may not be.

majortom546 wrote

> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
> License.
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
> License.

I would be somewhat leery of any educational institution that calls a
pilot "certificate" a "license".

There are major differences between the two.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
5.250...
> majortom546 wrote
>
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
>> License.
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
>> License.
>
> I would be somewhat leery of any educational institution that calls a
> pilot "certificate" a "license".
>
> There are major differences between the two.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI
> PanAm (retired)

Technically true, but annecdotal evidence suggests that the distinction has
been blurred by individuals and agencies treating both as licenses and
enforcing them as such.

Peter

On Jun 26, 6:28*am, Brian Whatcott > wrote:

> majortom546 wrote:
> > I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot..
> > I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
> > my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
> > program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
> > transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
> > says:
>
> > The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
> > requirements for this program.
>
> > * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
> > License.
> > * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
> > * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
> > License.

> But if an hour of flight costs $100 and it will take you 45 hours (at
> least) then that's a $5000 budget, not $27 grand
>
> Brian W-

The school's program gives commercial and instrument, not just
private, making the $27 grand much more realistic. Factor in that this
is a part 141 college and a degree is earned then the $27 seems more
likely.

Ricky

On Jun 25, 9:38 pm, majortom546
> wrote:
> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
> I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
> my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
> program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
> transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
> says:
>
> The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
> requirements for this program.
>
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
> License.
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
> License.
>
> The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer
> to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a
> degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.
>
> --
> majortom546

Please do not listen only to the doom stories about salary, hours,
expense, and the liberal NYT article. Never trust or put much weight
on the media in making life-changing decions, especially about a
career.

Piloting careers are diverse and the job market fluctuates greatly. I
am not a career pilot (I am a career A&P who flys for fun at the
moment) but my nephew's story paints a different picture than the doom
& gloom stories given to you here so far.
He went into some debt but had wealthy parents to help him through
Baylor's aviation program, graduated with a bachelor's and a CFII,
Multi, went straight to the Dallas area and stepped into a $25,000/
year CFI job with very reasonable hours and benefits. A few months
later he hired on at Flight Safety as a co-pilot in a specific
business jet simulator and was paid over $30,000 for this. A business
jet captain, coming to train in the simulator liked my nephew and
said; "you should come work for us." So he went from Flight Safety to
co-pilot in a Sabreliner for a major corporation and his salary jumped
significantly to, I think, near $40,000. All this happened in less
than 2 years after graduating from a 4 year university so don't let
anyone tell you that you can't get a good flying job. If you want
something bad enough, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get
it, it can be your's.
I could tell you at least 5 more very recent success stories of pilots
just out of school getting very respectable careers flying. The
airlines are NOT all there is. There are corporations, 1000s of them
with small business jets. Helicopter jobs are hot, I understand, right
now (and usually are). You can fly and earn a living, don't listen to
those who say "don't!"
Many people really enjoy instructing as a career and make well over
$50,000 within a few years at the right school/insitution. My plan is
to get my CFII & instruct as a "side job" supplementing my A&P work or
to find a place that needs check or test pilots for planes worked on.
If you really want to fly and it's been your dream since you were
little, don't let anything or anyone stop you. You will never be
satisfied or happy until you're living your dream, anyway.

Ricky

Robert Moore wrote:
> majortom546 wrote
>
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
>> License.
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
>> License.
>
> I would be somewhat leery of any educational institution that calls a
> pilot "certificate" a "license".
>
> There are major differences between the two.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI
> PanAm (retired)

Some European licensing authorities call 'em licences.

Brian W

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
5.250...
snip
> I would be somewhat leery of any educational institution that calls a
> pilot "certificate" a "license".
>
> There are major differences between the two.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI
> PanAm (retired)

Hello Bob,
with respect,
The OP did not indicate their country of concern, in Canada at least (and I
suspect many others) the correct term (and spelling) is Licence.

PPL = Private pilot Licence (class = aeroplane or other)
CPL = Commercial Pilot Licence - aeroplane
ATPL = Airline Transport Pilot Licence - aeroplane
GPL = Glider Pilot Licence
BPL = Balloon Pilot Licence

Other Pilot Permits are available -
Student Pilot Permit
Gyroplane Pilot Permit
Ultra-light Aeroplane Pilot Permit
RPP = Recreational Pilot Permit - Aeroplane
Recreational Pilot Permit - Helicopter

Other available Licences cover -
Flight Engineers
Air Traffic Controllers
Aircraft Maintenance Engineers

In addition there are many additional ratings covering
Night
VFR OTT
Instrument
Second Officer
Passenger carrying (ultralight)
Flight Instructor
other Classes
Types
Floats

Link to CARs (Canadian Aviation Regulations)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regserv/affairs/cars/menu.htm
Part IV - Personnel Licensing and Training subpart 1
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regserv/affairs/cars/part4/subpart1.htm
has a list and training requirements for the various licences and permits.

I agree there can be major differences between a Licence (or License) and a
Certificate or a Permit. AFAIK, Permits are not valid or recognized outside
of their country of issue. I do not fully understand the difference in the
USA between a License (correct spelling in US usage?) and a Certificate. I
would appreciate enlightenment.

Happy landings,

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
5.250...
snip
> I would be somewhat leery of any educational institution that calls a
> pilot "certificate" a "license".
>
> There are major differences between the two.
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP CFI
> PanAm (retired)

Hello Bob,
with respect,
The OP did not indicate their country of concern, in Canada at least (and I
suspect many others) the correct term (and spelling) is Licence.

PPL = Private pilot Licence (class = aeroplane or other)
CPL = Commercial Pilot Licence - aeroplane
ATPL = Airline Transport Pilot Licence - aeroplane
GPL = Glider Pilot Licence
BPL = Balloon Pilot Licence

Other Pilot Permits are available -
Student Pilot Permit
Gyroplane Pilot Permit
Ultra-light Aeroplane Pilot Permit
RPP = Recreational Pilot Permit - Aeroplane
Recreational Pilot Permit - Helicopter

Other available Licences cover -
Flight Engineers
Air Traffic Controllers
Aircraft Maintenance Engineers

In addition there are many additional ratings covering
Night
VFR OTT
Instrument
Second Officer
Passenger carrying (ultralight)
Flight Instructor
other Classes
Types
Floats

Link to CARs (Canadian Aviation Regulations)
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regserv/affairs/cars/menu.htm
Part IV - Personnel Licensing and Training subpart 1
http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regserv/affairs/cars/part4/subpart1.htm
has a list and training requirements for the various licences and permits.

I agree there can be major differences between a Licence (or License) and a
Certificate or a Permit. AFAIK, Permits are not valid or recognized outside
of their country of issue. I do not fully understand the difference in the
USA between a License (correct spelling in US usage?) and a Certificate. I
would appreciate enlightenment.

Happy landings,

"Private" wrote
> I agree there can be major differences between a Licence (or License)
> and a Certificate or a Permit. AFAIK, Permits are not valid or
> recognized outside of their country of issue. I do not fully
> understand the difference in the USA between a License (correct
> spelling in US usage?) and a Certificate. I would appreciate
> enlightenment.

I post below a bit of dialog that I had a few years ago with one of the
editors of AVWEB, Russ Niles, who just happens to be from Canada.

I can understand the idiots at the local TV station constantly referring
to "pilot's licenses", but how did supposedly "aviation savvy" writers
for AVWEB mistake a certificate for a license in the lead article
pertaining to medical certificate fraud?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little journalistic license, Bob, as approved by the FAA.
Check it out under the Airman Registry subhead in the link provided
below.
It now appears that license is the preferred term and (certificate) is
bracketed
: ie less used... http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------
A quick call to the FAA confirms that there has been no change and that,
just like the newscasters, the webmaster has inserted his own slant on
the subject.
Since the page seems to be intended for the general public, the
webmaster probably felt that they would understand license better than
certificate.

However............from Wikipedia

A license (American English) or licence (Commonwealth English) is a
document or agreement giving permission to do something.

A certificate is an official document affirming some fact.
A certificate may also certify that a person has received specific
education or has passed a test.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is the following little bit of freedom granted to citizens of the
United States of America that makes the difference between license and
certificate.

United State Code TITLE 49 - TRANSPORTATION
Sec. 40103. Sovereignty and use of airspace
(2) A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit
through the navigable airspace.

No further granting of permission (license) is required, however, a
demonstration of training or ability (certification) may be required.

There is no such federal code granting a citizen the right to operate a
vehicle on public roads, or to practice medicine, therefore allowing the
government to require a license.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response from the FAA webmaster

Subject
Has the FAA really switched "pilot certificate" to "pilot license" as is
indi...

Discussion Thread
Response (FAA Expert) 07/22/2005 03:51 PM
It's a web error. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We are
in the process of restructuring our entire web site. I have initiated
action to correct this page to reflect "pilot certificate" and "mechanic
certificates."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Would you mind if I wrote about this for Monday, Bob?

Write away Russ....just bear in mind that I'll be checking each and
every word. :-) :-)

What started out as just a gentle chide to the AVWEB editor turned out
to taking-on the FAA, something that I've done many times in the past.
I've been in this flying business for 50 years and have learned that the
FAA probably makes more mistakes than I do. Getting them to admit it as
easily as happened Friday came as quite a shock to me. My first call
was to the local (Tampa) FSDO and what a waste that was.
A simple yes or no question and after a five minute dissertation, I
still did not have a firm answer.

My name since leaving Naval Aviation and joining PanAm in 1967 has been
"Bob (It's a certificate not a license) Moore". The basic indoctrination
course at PanAm taught us a lot about aviation law and history. At 74
years of age, I am still an active Flight Instructor. I instructed for
three years in the Navy, probably ten years in the airline industry and
six years in the GA business and one thing that I learned early-on from
my students was to very carefully weigh each and every word that I
uttered for accuracy. This is much more important for those who would
commit words to paper, or now-a-days,to the internet. :-)

BTW, that little bit of Federal Code had its origins in the Air Commerce
Act of 1926. Just try discussing that with your friendly local FDSO
inspector! :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob Moore
ATP B-707 B-727 L-188
CFI ASEL-I
USN S-2F P-2V P-3B

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
5.247...
> "Private" wrote
>> I agree there can be major differences between a Licence (or License)
>> and a Certificate or a Permit. AFAIK, Permits are not valid or
>> recognized outside of their country of issue. I do not fully
>> understand the difference in the USA between a License (correct
>> spelling in US usage?) and a Certificate. I would appreciate
>> enlightenment.
>
> I post below a bit of dialog that I had a few years ago with one of the
> editors of AVWEB, Russ Niles, who just happens to be from Canada.
>
> I can understand the idiots at the local TV station constantly referring
> to "pilot's licenses", but how did supposedly "aviation savvy" writers
> for AVWEB mistake a certificate for a license in the lead article
> pertaining to medical certificate fraud?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A little journalistic license, Bob, as approved by the FAA.
> Check it out under the Airman Registry subhead in the link provided
> below.
> It now appears that license is the preferred term and (certificate) is
> bracketed
> : ie less used... http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------
> A quick call to the FAA confirms that there has been no change and that,
> just like the newscasters, the webmaster has inserted his own slant on
> the subject.
> Since the page seems to be intended for the general public, the
> webmaster probably felt that they would understand license better than
> certificate.
>
> However............from Wikipedia
>
> A license (American English) or licence (Commonwealth English) is a
> document or agreement giving permission to do something.
>
> A certificate is an official document affirming some fact.
> A certificate may also certify that a person has received specific
> education or has passed a test.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> It is the following little bit of freedom granted to citizens of the
> United States of America that makes the difference between license and
> certificate.
>
> United State Code TITLE 49 - TRANSPORTATION
> Sec. 40103. Sovereignty and use of airspace
> (2) A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit
> through the navigable airspace.
>
> No further granting of permission (license) is required, however, a
> demonstration of training or ability (certification) may be required.
>
> There is no such federal code granting a citizen the right to operate a
> vehicle on public roads, or to practice medicine, therefore allowing the
> government to require a license.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> My response from the FAA webmaster
>
> Subject
> Has the FAA really switched "pilot certificate" to "pilot license" as is
> indi...
>
> Discussion Thread
> Response (FAA Expert) 07/22/2005 03:51 PM
> It's a web error. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. We are
> in the process of restructuring our entire web site. I have initiated
> action to correct this page to reflect "pilot certificate" and "mechanic
> certificates."
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Would you mind if I wrote about this for Monday, Bob?
>
> Write away Russ....just bear in mind that I'll be checking each and
> every word. :-) :-)
>
> What started out as just a gentle chide to the AVWEB editor turned out
> to taking-on the FAA, something that I've done many times in the past.
> I've been in this flying business for 50 years and have learned that the
> FAA probably makes more mistakes than I do. Getting them to admit it as
> easily as happened Friday came as quite a shock to me. My first call
> was to the local (Tampa) FSDO and what a waste that was.
> A simple yes or no question and after a five minute dissertation, I
> still did not have a firm answer.
>
> My name since leaving Naval Aviation and joining PanAm in 1967 has been
> "Bob (It's a certificate not a license) Moore". The basic indoctrination
> course at PanAm taught us a lot about aviation law and history. At 74
> years of age, I am still an active Flight Instructor. I instructed for
> three years in the Navy, probably ten years in the airline industry and
> six years in the GA business and one thing that I learned early-on from
> my students was to very carefully weigh each and every word that I
> uttered for accuracy. This is much more important for those who would
> commit words to paper, or now-a-days,to the internet. :-)
>
> BTW, that little bit of Federal Code had its origins in the Air Commerce
> Act of 1926. Just try discussing that with your friendly local FDSO
> inspector! :-)
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bob Moore
> ATP B-707 B-727 L-188
> CFI ASEL-I
> USN S-2F P-2V P-3B


Hello Bob,
Thank you for posting this, it is the best explanation that I have read and
certainly clarifies the issue for me.

ISTM that the USA has defined and granted 'rights' to its citizens that are
considered 'privileges' elsewhere. I suspect that many in the US government
wishes that this was not so, and seek to downgrade these and other 'rights'
to 'privileges' which it(they) can grant or withhold at will.

Happy landings,

On Jun 26, 1:51*pm, "Private" > wrote:
> "Robert Moore" > wrote in message
>
> 5.250...
> snip
>
> > I would be somewhat leery of any educational institution that calls a
> > pilot "certificate" a "license".
>
> > There are major differences between the two.
>
> > Bob Moore
> > ATP *CFI
> > PanAm (retired)
>
> Hello Bob,
> with respect,
> The OP did not indicate their country of concern, in Canada at least (and I
> suspect many others) the correct term (and spelling) is Licence.
>
> PPL = Private pilot Licence (class = aeroplane or other)
> CPL = Commercial Pilot Licence - aeroplane
> ATPL = Airline Transport Pilot Licence - aeroplane
> GPL = Glider Pilot Licence
> BPL = Balloon Pilot Licence
>
> Other Pilot Permits are available -
> Student Pilot Permit
> Gyroplane Pilot Permit
> Ultra-light Aeroplane Pilot Permit
> RPP = Recreational Pilot Permit - Aeroplane
> Recreational Pilot Permit - Helicopter
>
> Other available Licences cover -
> Flight Engineers
> Air Traffic Controllers
> Aircraft Maintenance Engineers
>
> In addition there are many additional ratings covering
> Night
> VFR OTT
> Instrument
> Second Officer
> Passenger carrying (ultralight)
> Flight Instructor
> other Classes
> Types
> Floats
>
> Link to CARs (Canadian Aviation Regulations)http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regserv/affairs/cars/menu.htm
> Part IV - Personnel Licensing and Training subpart 1http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regserv/affairs/cars/part4/subpart1...
> has a list and training requirements for the various licences and permits..
>
> I agree there can be major differences between a Licence (or License) and a
> Certificate or a Permit. *AFAIK, Permits are not valid or recognized outside
> of their country of issue. *I do not fully understand the difference in the
> USA between a License (correct spelling in US usage?) *and a Certificate. *I
> would appreciate enlightenment.
>
> Happy landings,

It's been a very minor but aggravating issue with flight instructors
dealing with the FAA T crossers and i dotters for years here in the
states if that helps. A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors.
I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
> Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
> themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors.
> I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
> had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)

While I suppose there may be some minor technical issues with log book
signing, I personally don't see any problems with CFIs using CFI to mean
"Certified Flight Instructor." It's not like the FAA has a trademark on the
acronym. Besides, here are several definitions of "certified,"
"certificated," and "certifiable" lifted straight from the web that show
how little difference there really is between them:

Certified:

Adj: "holding appropriate documentation and officially on record as
qualified to perform a specified function or practice a specified skill"

Adj: "endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements"

Certificated:

Adj: "furnished with or authorized by a certificate"

Certifiable:

Adj: "fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly)"

All seem equally applicable to CFIs!
;-)

On Jun 26, 7:54*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> > A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
> > Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
> > themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors.
> > I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
> > had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)
>
> While I suppose there may be some minor technical issues with log book
> signing, I personally don't see any problems with CFIs using CFI to mean
> "Certified Flight Instructor." It's not like the FAA has a trademark on the
> acronym. Besides, here are several definitions of "certified,"
> "certificated," and "certifiable" lifted straight from the web that show
> how little difference there really is between them:
>
> Certified:
>
> Adj: "holding appropriate documentation and officially on record as
> qualified to perform a specified function or practice a specified skill"
>
> Adj: "endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements"
>
> Certificated:
>
> Adj: "furnished with or authorized by a certificate"
>
> Certifiable:
>
> Adj: "fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly)"
>
> All seem equally applicable to CFIs!
> ;-)

Based on these definitions, and after a quick consultation with my
wife, I think I can state flatly that I am FULLY qualified as a
certifiable flight instructor.
:-)

DH

In article
>,
Dudley Henriques > wrote:

> On Jun 26, 7:54*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> > Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> > > A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
> > > Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
> > > themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors.
> > > I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
> > > had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)
> >
> > While I suppose there may be some minor technical issues with log book
> > signing, I personally don't see any problems with CFIs using CFI to mean
> > "Certified Flight Instructor." It's not like the FAA has a trademark on the
> > acronym. Besides, here are several definitions of "certified,"
> > "certificated," and "certifiable" lifted straight from the web that show
> > how little difference there really is between them:
> >
> > Certified:
> >
> > Adj: "holding appropriate documentation and officially on record as
> > qualified to perform a specified function or practice a specified skill"
> >
> > Adj: "endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements"
> >
> > Certificated:
> >
> > Adj: "furnished with or authorized by a certificate"
> >
> > Certifiable:
> >
> > Adj: "fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly)"
> >
> > All seem equally applicable to CFIs!
> > ;-)
>
> Based on these definitions, and after a quick consultation with my
> wife, I think I can state flatly that I am FULLY qualified as a
> certifiable flight instructor.
> :-)
>
> DH

Is she hinting that you're getting behind on the mowing?

On Jun 26, 8:26*pm, Steve Hix >
wrote:
> In article
> >,
> *Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 26, 7:54*pm, Jim Logajan > wrote:
> > > Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> > > > A CFI is technically a Certificated Flight
> > > > Instructor, but there are a virtual ton of CFI's who refer to
> > > > themselves on almost every occasion as CERTIFIED Flight Instructors..
> > > > I did it myself for many years, even signed log books this way. Never
> > > > had a problem with it until discovering Usenet :-)
>
> > > While I suppose there may be some minor technical issues with log book
> > > signing, I personally don't see any problems with CFIs using CFI to mean
> > > "Certified Flight Instructor." It's not like the FAA has a trademark on the
> > > acronym. Besides, here are several definitions of "certified,"
> > > "certificated," and "certifiable" lifted straight from the web that show
> > > how little difference there really is between them:
>
> > > Certified:
>
> > > Adj: "holding appropriate documentation and officially on record as
> > > qualified to perform a specified function or practice a specified skill"
>
> > > Adj: "endorsed authoritatively as having met certain requirements"
>
> > > Certificated:
>
> > > Adj: "furnished with or authorized by a certificate"
>
> > > Certifiable:
>
> > > Adj: "fit to be certified as insane (and treated accordingly)"
>
> > > All seem equally applicable to CFIs!
> > > ;-)
>
> > Based on these definitions, and after a quick consultation with my
> > wife, I think I can state flatly that I am FULLY qualified as a
> > certifiable flight instructor.
> > :-)
>
> > DH
>
> Is she hinting that you're getting behind on the mowing?

That one comes more as a Ninja attack than a "hint" :-))
-DH

Brian.. the $27K estimate is for Pvt, Commercial and Instrument.. plus
academics for an AS Degree.

"Brian Whatcott" > wrote in message
...
> majortom546 wrote:
>> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
>> I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
>> my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
>> program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
>> transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
>> says:
>>
>> The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
>> requirements for this program.
>>
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
>> License.
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
>> License.
>>
>> The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer
>> to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a
>> degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.
> *
> *
> *
> It has been done before - but this is possibly the toughest, unlikeliest
> way to an airline job. Getting a four year degree. YES!
> Getting a pilot slot in the Navy or AirForce? YES?
>
> But if an hour of flight costs $100 and it will take you 45 hours (at
> least) then that's a $5000 budget, not $27 grand
>
> Brian W

Ah yes, of course. And after a look at a dollar index graph at a
commodities seminar this week, it might be good to spend those bucks
while they are still worth more than six bits??

Brian W


BT wrote:
> Brian.. the $27K estimate is for Pvt, Commercial and Instrument.. plus
> academics for an AS Degree.
>
> "Brian Whatcott" > wrote in message
> ...
>> majortom546 wrote:
>>> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
>>> I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
>>> my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
>>> program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
>>> transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
>>> says:
>>>
>>> The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
>>> requirements for this program.
>>>
>>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
>>> License.
>>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
>>> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
>>> License.
>>>
>>> The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer
>>> to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a
>>> degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.
>> *
>> *
>> *
>> It has been done before - but this is possibly the toughest, unlikeliest
>> way to an airline job. Getting a four year degree. YES!
>> Getting a pilot slot in the Navy or AirForce? YES?
>>
>> But if an hour of flight costs $100 and it will take you 45 hours (at
>> least) then that's a $5000 budget, not $27 grand
>>
>> Brian W
>
>

Ricky wrote:
> On Jun 25, 9:38 pm, majortom546
> > wrote:
>> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
>> The total cost of the program is $27,000....
>> majortom546
>
> Please do not listen only to the doom stories about salary, hours,
> expense, and the liberal NYT article. Never trust or put much weight
> on the media in making life-changing decions, especially about a
> career.
>
> Piloting careers are diverse and the job market fluctuates greatly. I
> am not a career pilot (I am a career A&P who flys for fun at the
> moment) but my nephew's story paints a different picture than the doom
> & gloom stories given to you here so far.
> He went into some debt but had wealthy parents to help him through
> Baylor's aviation program, graduated with a bachelor's and a CFII,
> Multi, went straight to the Dallas area and stepped into a $25,000/
> year CFI job with very reasonable hours and benefits. A few months
> later he hired on at Flight Safety as a co-pilot in a specific
> business jet simulator and was paid over $30,000 for this. A business
> jet captain, coming to train in the simulator liked my nephew and
> said; "you should come work for us." So he went from Flight Safety to
> co-pilot in a Sabreliner for a major corporation and his salary jumped
> significantly to, I think, near $40,000. All this happened in less
> than 2 years after graduating from a 4 year university so don't let
> anyone tell you that you can't get a good flying job. If you want
> something bad enough, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get
> it, it can be your's.
> I could tell you at least 5 more very recent success stories of pilots
> just out of school getting very respectable careers flying. The
> airlines are NOT all there is. There are corporations, 1000s of them
> with small business jets. Helicopter jobs are hot, I understand, right
> now (and usually are). You can fly and earn a living, don't listen to
> those who say "don't!"
> Many people really enjoy instructing as a career and make well over
> $50,000 within a few years at the right school/insitution. My plan is
> to get my CFII & instruct as a "side job" supplementing my A&P work or
> to find a place that needs check or test pilots for planes worked on.
> If you really want to fly and it's been your dream since you were
> little, don't let anything or anyone stop you. You will never be
> satisfied or happy until you're living your dream, anyway.
>
> Ricky
>

There's a useful, contrasting viewpoint.
But (can't I resist being negative?) a 4 year degree from Baylor and
a CFII ticket is not a $27 grand proposition. $80? $100? $127 grand?
That's why it is very, very helpful to have well-heeled parents in
this situation.
I could mention the starry eyed young instructors living hand to mouth
in a tatty travel trailer, building hours towards an ATP.

Still, I like the idea of grabbing for the ring and living the dream.

Brian W

On Jun 27, 8:33*am, Brian Whatcott > wrote:

> There's a useful, contrasting viewpoint.
> * * But (can't I resist being negative?) a 4 year degree from Baylor and
> a CFII ticket is not a $27 grand proposition. *$80? $100? $127 grand?
> * * That's why it is very, very helpful to have well-heeled parents in
> this situation.

> Brian W- Hide quoted text -

Indeed, it was NOT a $27 grand proposition at Baylor. More along the
low 6 figures. But there are many good & excellent part 141 colleges &
universities with both stellar flight instruction and reasonable rates/
expenses both at the school and for the flight costs. Near here,
Central Texas University and South-Eastern Oklahoma State are good,
reasonable 141 schools. In my city, Texas State Technical College is a
good, and cheap 141 school but you'll graduate with only a (virtually
useless) 2 year associates degree. Now that I think of it, TSTC
partners, I believe, with South Eastern or UT Arlington for a
bachelors and you stay in Waco for your flying & classroom
instruction. Many 2 year colleges are partnering with nearby
universities so one can earn his/her bachelors while staying in their
respective city, avoiding the hasle & expense of moving for a degree..

Ricky

Brian Whatcott wrote:
> Ricky wrote:
>> On Jun 25, 9:38 pm, majortom546
>> > wrote:
>>> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
>>> The total cost of the program is $27,000....
>>> majortom546
>>
>> Please do not listen only to the doom stories about salary, hours,
>> expense, and the liberal NYT article. Never trust or put much weight
>> on the media in making life-changing decions, especially about a
>> career.
>>
>> Piloting careers are diverse and the job market fluctuates greatly. I
>> am not a career pilot (I am a career A&P who flys for fun at the
>> moment) but my nephew's story paints a different picture than the doom
>> & gloom stories given to you here so far.
>> He went into some debt but had wealthy parents to help him through
>> Baylor's aviation program, graduated with a bachelor's and a CFII,
>> Multi, went straight to the Dallas area and stepped into a $25,000/
>> year CFI job with very reasonable hours and benefits. A few months
>> later he hired on at Flight Safety as a co-pilot in a specific
>> business jet simulator and was paid over $30,000 for this. A business
>> jet captain, coming to train in the simulator liked my nephew and
>> said; "you should come work for us." So he went from Flight Safety to
>> co-pilot in a Sabreliner for a major corporation and his salary jumped
>> significantly to, I think, near $40,000. All this happened in less
>> than 2 years after graduating from a 4 year university so don't let
>> anyone tell you that you can't get a good flying job. If you want
>> something bad enough, and are willing to do whatever it takes to get
>> it, it can be your's.
>> I could tell you at least 5 more very recent success stories of pilots
>> just out of school getting very respectable careers flying. The
>> airlines are NOT all there is. There are corporations, 1000s of them
>> with small business jets. Helicopter jobs are hot, I understand, right
>> now (and usually are). You can fly and earn a living, don't listen to
>> those who say "don't!"
>> Many people really enjoy instructing as a career and make well over
>> $50,000 within a few years at the right school/insitution. My plan is
>> to get my CFII & instruct as a "side job" supplementing my A&P work or
>> to find a place that needs check or test pilots for planes worked on.
>> If you really want to fly and it's been your dream since you were
>> little, don't let anything or anyone stop you. You will never be
>> satisfied or happy until you're living your dream, anyway.
>>
>> Ricky
>>
>
> There's a useful, contrasting viewpoint.
> But (can't I resist being negative?) a 4 year degree from Baylor and
> a CFII ticket is not a $27 grand proposition. $80? $100? $127 grand?
> That's why it is very, very helpful to have well-heeled parents in
> this situation.
> I could mention the starry eyed young instructors living hand to mouth
> in a tatty travel trailer, building hours towards an ATP.
>
> Still, I like the idea of grabbing for the ring and living the dream.
>
> Brian W

Baylor may be expensive but have you looked at Southeastern Oklahoma
State University in Durant, OK. I have known some folks that graduated
with a degree and all the certificates/licenses (your pick) and have
done well. They have had to earn their position by first being a flight
instructor, then a freight hauler, then start moving on up. A son of one
friend is now captain on a Gulfstream. He sent a picture of his "office"
and it is quite nice. There are other things than the airlines. BTW, I
have not association with SOSU. Just live near it and know some folks
that went there.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:38:46 +0100, majortom546 wrote:

> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.

I think you might find this article very interesting:

SO, YOU WANT TO BE AN AIRPLANE PILOT.....
by Hal Stoen

http://stoenworks.com/So%2C%20you%20want%20to%20be%20a%20pilot.html
--
Dallas

Dallas > wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:38:46 +0100, majortom546 wrote:
>
>> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
>
> I think you might find this article very interesting:
>
> SO, YOU WANT TO BE AN AIRPLANE PILOT.....
> by Hal Stoen
>
> http://stoenworks.com/So%2C%20you%20want%20to%20be%20a%20pilot.html

Too bad he doesn't mention starting with glider training - even though he
says one should probably start with aircraft the most difficult to fly.
Nothing like training on a plane with no motor, one wheel, every takeoff
requiring formation flight (for aerotows), and no allowance for go-arounds
on landings!

On Jun 29, 11:28*am, Ross > wrote:

> Baylor may be expensive but have you looked at Southeastern Oklahoma
> State University in Durant, OK.

Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> Sold :(
> KSWI-

See above...I talk about S.E. Ok. State U.
Inexpensive, respected, but with mediocre to low quality instruction
(just what I've heard).
I have heard good & bad about the school, but there's good & bad in
everything.
I honestly don't think the particular school has a whole lot of
bearing on one getting hired at an airline, corporation, FBO or
wherever one's flight career takes root.

Ricky

On Jun 25, 9:38*pm, majortom546
> wrote:

> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
> I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
> my local community college this fall.

> majortom546

Do it.
BUT...why not start out at a university and avoid the hassle of
transferring? You'll likely come out cheaper ($) and more time-
efficient in your studies if you go directly to a 4 year school.
I have been involved with 3 2 year colleges with flight programs and
not one student seriously pursuing their flight career was glad they
began at a 2 year school.

"Jim Logajan" > wrote in message
.. .
> Dallas > wrote:
>> On Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:38:46 +0100, majortom546 wrote:
>>
>>> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
>>
>> I think you might find this article very interesting:
>>
>> SO, YOU WANT TO BE AN AIRPLANE PILOT.....
>> by Hal Stoen
>>
>> http://stoenworks.com/So%2C%20you%20want%20to%20be%20a%20pilot.html
>
> Too bad he doesn't mention starting with glider training - even though he
> says one should probably start with aircraft the most difficult to fly.
> Nothing like training on a plane with no motor, one wheel, every takeoff
> requiring formation flight (for aerotows), and no allowance for go-arounds
> on landings!


IMHE, I learned a great deal flying gliders and consider glider training and
experience very helpful for any pilot, however, I would NOT advise students
to spend energy or money pursuing a glider pilot certificate (or licence)
before obtaining a powered pilot cert/lic.

IN GENERAL (there are exceptions) and IMHE,
-Powered schools and instructors are better qualified and trained as
instructors, teach to a more structured curriculum, and are more motivated
to train new pilots to the level of both solo and flight test standards.
-IMHE, Cert/Lic pilots will solo gliders very quickly but ab-initio glider
student pilots seldom ever do.
-Cert/Lic glider pilots get very little credit (5hrs?) towards power
training requirements and non cert/lic students get no credit for glider
training.
-IIRC, Cert/Lic pilots do not require either glider ground school or
written test to add the glider class to their Cert/Lic.
-Gliders are affectively taildraggers and will teach good landing skills but
they are not very good at touch and go and it is difficult to get much
landing practice unless you can find a club with a winch. Similarly
towplanes are expensive and landing training is much cheaper using a winch
or a powered aircraft..
-IMHO the best and most cost effective flight training will be found at a
school using taildraggers (IMHO the best is a Citabria 7ECA) for training,
It will take a few hours longer to solo but IMHE the instructors will be
better and you will learn to use your feet properly and will have little
trouble transitioning to tricycle or glider aircraft. (Few taildraggers
have the full instruments best for use during Commercial training.)
-IMHO, glider training is very helpful after Private Pilot Cert/Lic and
enroute to Commercial Pilot Cert/Lic. IIRC, A Cert/Lic pilot can claim
their glider solo flying as both PIC and total time. Commercial students
often find themselves short on PIC time after they have completed all the
other requirements. Many people also recommend float training as part of
Commercial Pilot training as this can make it easier to get a first flying
job.

Happy landings, YMMV

I think im going to go for the degree in aviation. Here is the link to the page of the course im looking at by the way:

http://www.sunydutchess.edu/academics/departments/enact/ENACTPrgrams/AviationSciencePilot/


And some people were saying the cost is too low... It is $26,200 in "lab" fees plus the tuition of $3000 a year.
And what are some colleges I can look into transfering to? Thanks guys.

On Jun 29, 4:12*pm, majortom546
> wrote:
> I think im going to go for the degree in aviation. Here is the link to
> the page of the course im looking at by the way:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lpsqms
>
> And some people were saying the cost is too low... It is $26,200 in
> "lab" fees plus the tuition of $3000 a year.
> And what are some colleges I can look into transfering to? Thanks guys.
>
> --
> majortom546

I strongly suggest you begin at your 4 year university instead of
getting an associates (2 year) degree and then transferring somewhere
else. If you transfer there are the possible hassles of moving,
transferring schools, new airplanes & flight instructors, different
costs, different school, environment. Starting at the 4 year school
will be smoother sailing.

Southeast Oklahoma State, Central Texas University, U.T. Arlington,
there are hundreds of universities with bachelor's programs in flight.
Perhaps someone can provide a good link for the search.

Ricky

On Jun 29, 4:12*pm, majortom546
> wrote:

> And what are some colleges I can look into transfering to? Thanks guys.

> majortom546

Here is one of among 6,000,000 plus links;

http://www.collegebound.net/aviation-school-guide/?gclid=CJKT0MqIspsCFZ-F7QoddSucOg&referer=http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&rlz=&q=searching+for+a+4+year+aviation+school&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&campaign_id=5065712&

Ricky

Ive been giving it some thought and talking to people and I think I will consider going in to the air national guard. Anyone have any experience with this? And how could I become a pilot in the national guard? Thanks

On Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:38:46 PM UTC-7, majortom546 wrote:
> I just graduated from high school and my dream job is to become a pilot.
> I have wanted to be a pilot since a very young age. I plan on attending
> my local community college this fall. They offer an aviation science
> program that is mainly a transfer program where you go for 2 years then
> transfer to a 4-year school for the other two. The course description
> says:
>
> The Associate in Science (A.S.) degree is awarded upon completion of
> requirements for this program.
>
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Private Pilot
> License.
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn an Instrument Rating.
> * Student will satisfy all requirements to earn a Commercial Pilot
> License.
>
> The total cost of the program is $27,000. What schools could I transfer
> to after this? And do you guys think its worth it or should I persue a
> degree in something else? What is the job outlook like? Thanks.
>
>
>
>
> --
> majortom546

Well Tom becoming a theif is not a way to start by stealing peoples money. So next time you do it make sure you don't use your real name.

Docdose411

On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 06:49:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

> Well Tom becoming a theif is not a way to start by stealing peoples money.

Well, SpellKing, you know a better way?
--
If you really must fellate me,
Though the thought appalls;
Remember work the shaft
And cup the balls.