towplane collides with glider, prop hits wingtip

[[email protected]]

Educational video...
Murphy's law at work... one thing leads to another...
towplane: Wilga
glider: LAK
place and time: competition at Pila in Poland, late August 2009
towplane's engine misses than cuts off during takeoff
prop collides with the wingtip
http://picasaweb.google.pl/Wojtekpara/Wypadek#5238527461393125826

Andre V, CFIG

[tstock]

On Aug 29, 4:34*pm, wrote:
> Educational video...
> Murphy's law at work... one thing leads to another...
> towplane: Wilga
> glider: LAK
> place and time: competition at Pila in Poland, late August 2009
> towplane's engine misses than cuts off during takeoff
> prop collides with the wingtiphttp://picasaweb.google.pl/Wojtekpara/Wypadek#5238527461393125826
>
> Andre V, CFIG

Any clues as to what caused the tow pilot to lose control at the end
of the runway and/or make the hard right turn into the glider's path?

[vaughn[_2_]]

"tstock" > wrote in message
...

>Any clues as to what caused the tow pilot to lose control at the end
>of the runway and/or make the hard right turn into the glider's path?

Plain old taildragger-type ground loop?

Another question is what kind of brakes did that glider have? It didn't
seem to have been doing very much stopping.

Vaughn

[BT]

"vaughn" > wrote in message
...
>
> "tstock" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Any clues as to what caused the tow pilot to lose control at the end
>>of the runway and/or make the hard right turn into the glider's path?
>
> Plain old taildragger-type ground loop?
>
> Another question is what kind of brakes did that glider have? It didn't
> seem to have been doing very much stopping.
>
> Vaughn
>

It appeared to me that the glider had not chance to stop, he's still being
pulled by the rope when the tow plane looses control.
We can see no where that either the tow or glider pilot released the rope.
Gliders in this situation do not have good brakes.
The error is in the tow pilot trying to keep the tow plane on a runway, he
faked left, glider pilot decides to go right and the tow pilot changes
direction.

[Frank[_12_]]

On Aug 29, 8:34*pm, "vaughn" >
wrote:
> "tstock" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >Any clues as to what caused the tow pilot to lose control at the end
> >of the runway and/or make the hard right turn into the glider's path?
>
> Plain old taildragger-type ground loop?
>
> Another question is what kind of brakes did that glider have? *It didn't
> seem to have been doing very much stopping.
>
> Vaughn

Lets all be thankful that the wingtip was the only thing chomped up by
the prop - could just as easily have been pilot hamburger!

TA

[tstock]

>
> Lets all be thankful that the wingtip was the only thing chomped up by
> the prop - could just as easily have been pilot hamburger!
>

Agreed.. and also thankful that this happened on the ground and not at
75 feet.

[John Smith]

BT wrote:
> The error is in the tow pilot trying to keep the tow plane on a runway, he
> faked left, glider pilot decides to go right and the tow pilot changes
> direction.

Wow. You should apply for a job as an accident investigator, your quick
conclutions would save them a lot of money! Not sure the reports would
be very accurate, though.

[bildan]

On Aug 29, 6:05*pm, tstock > wrote:
> On Aug 29, 4:34*pm, wrote:
>
> > Educational video...
> > Murphy's law at work... one thing leads to another...
> > towplane: Wilga
> > glider: LAK
> > place and time: competition at Pila in Poland, late August 2009
> > towplane's engine misses than cuts off during takeoff
> > prop collides with the wingtiphttp://picasaweb.google.pl/Wojtekpara/Wypadek#5238527461393125826
>
> > Andre V, CFIG
>
> Any clues as to what caused the tow pilot to lose control at the end
> of the runway and/or make the hard right turn into the glider's path?

After watching this a couple of times, it appears to me the tug pilot
intended to turn around and didn't lose control until he saw the
glider about to collide with him - a failure to maintain situational
awareness.

I've had a tug abruptly stop on the runway centerline just after I was
airborne forcing me to fly around him - it's an experience I won't
forget. Just as in flight, the tug pilot should bear left if aborting
takeoff on the runway so the glider has somewhere to go.

The PZL 104 Wilga's Russian Ivchenko/Vedeneyev radial can be a cranky
beast - 'ready to go' and 'ready to quit' sound about the same. The
tug pilot may have been confused by that.

[Andy[_10_]]

On Aug 30, 7:06*am, bildan > wrote:
> On Aug 29, 6:05*pm, tstock > wrote:
>
> > On Aug 29, 4:34*pm, wrote:
>
> > > Educational video...
> > > Murphy's law at work... one thing leads to another...
> > > towplane: Wilga
> > > glider: LAK
> > > place and time: competition at Pila in Poland, late August 2009
> > > towplane's engine misses than cuts off during takeoff
> > > prop collides with the wingtiphttp://picasaweb.google.pl/Wojtekpara/Wypadek#5238527461393125826
>
> > > Andre V, CFIG
>
> > Any clues as to what caused the tow pilot to lose control at the end
> > of the runway and/or make the hard right turn into the glider's path?
>
> After watching this a couple of times, it appears to me the tug pilot
> intended to turn around and didn't lose control until he saw the
> glider about to collide with him - a failure to maintain situational
> awareness.
>
> I've had a tug abruptly stop on the runway centerline just after I was
> airborne forcing me to fly around him - it's an experience I won't
> forget. *Just as in flight, the tug pilot should bear left if aborting
> takeoff on the runway so the glider has somewhere to go.
>
> The PZL 104 Wilga's Russian Ivchenko/Vedeneyev radial can be a cranky
> beast - 'ready to go' and 'ready to quit' sound about the same. *The
> tug pilot may have been confused by that.

I had an L-19 run out of gas on me on a downhiill asphalt runway. I
had just broken ground and my LS-3 was full of water. Full spoilers
and flying it onto the runway to engage the LS's powerful Tost drum
brake (not!) was the only thing that kept me out of the swampy
overrun. The tow pilot was smart enough to coast to a stop off the
left edge of the runway, leaving me room to scoot past on the right
edge of the pavement. I ended up with the tow rope wrapped around my
axle but no harm done.

[Maciek K.]

> place and time: competition at Pila in Poland, late August 2009

It happened a year ago, in 2008. The rest is true. Thank God noone got
injured. But there were a few more accidents during that competition. A few
days before one pilot got heavily injured crashing his Cobra glider in a
spin during an outlanding near airfield. It was a very unlucky competition.
Four damaged gliders, one damaged winch, one car (hit by one of the landing
gliders), and finally the tug. Also the weather was very poor: four tasks
played during 16 days of competition (two of them played on the 16th day -
yes, two tasks played one day).

Maciek

[bildan]

On Aug 30, 11:31*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Aug 30, 7:06*am, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 29, 6:05*pm, tstock > wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 29, 4:34*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > Educational video...
> > > > Murphy's law at work... one thing leads to another...
> > > > towplane: Wilga
> > > > glider: LAK
> > > > place and time: competition at Pila in Poland, late August 2009
> > > > towplane's engine misses than cuts off during takeoff
> > > > prop collides with the wingtiphttp://picasaweb.google.pl/Wojtekpara/Wypadek#5238527461393125826
>
> > > > Andre V, CFIG
>
> > > Any clues as to what caused the tow pilot to lose control at the end
> > > of the runway and/or make the hard right turn into the glider's path?
>
> > After watching this a couple of times, it appears to me the tug pilot
> > intended to turn around and didn't lose control until he saw the
> > glider about to collide with him - a failure to maintain situational
> > awareness.
>
> > I've had a tug abruptly stop on the runway centerline just after I was
> > airborne forcing me to fly around him - it's an experience I won't
> > forget. *Just as in flight, the tug pilot should bear left if aborting
> > takeoff on the runway so the glider has somewhere to go.
>
> > The PZL 104 Wilga's Russian Ivchenko/Vedeneyev radial can be a cranky
> > beast - 'ready to go' and 'ready to quit' sound about the same. *The
> > tug pilot may have been confused by that.
>
> I had an L-19 run out of gas on me on a downhiill asphalt runway. I
> had just broken ground and my LS-3 was full of water. Full spoilers
> and flying it onto the runway to engage the LS's powerful Tost drum
> brake (not!) was the only thing that kept me out of the swampy
> overrun. The tow pilot was smart enough to coast to a stop off the
> left edge of the runway, leaving me room to scoot past on the right
> edge of the pavement. *I ended up with the tow rope wrapped around my
> axle but no harm done.

The "tug out of gas" incidents/accidents are getting old. I can
recall no less than a dozen - which means 10x that number are likely
to have happened. You'd think a pilot who is back on the ground every
10 minutes would have time to check his fuel.

We had an as yet unexplained fuel exhaustion incident this summer -
the pilot glided safely back to the runway. One possibility is that a
fuel drain continued to dribble fuel overboard after the pre-flight.
Please take a second or two to check the drains shut off after taking
a fuel sample.

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 17:31 30 August 2009, Andy wrote:
>On Aug 30, 7:06=A0am, bildan wrote:
>> On Aug 29, 6:05=A0pm, tstock wrote:
>>
>> > On Aug 29, 4:34=A0pm, wrote:
>>
>> > > Educational video...
>> > > Murphy's law at work... one thing leads to another...
>> > > towplane: Wilga
>> > > glider: LAK
>> > > place and time: competition at Pila in Poland, late August 2009
>> > > towplane's engine misses than cuts off during takeoff
>> > > prop collides with the
>
>I had an L-19 run out of gas on me on a downhiill asphalt runway. I
>had just broken ground and my LS-3 was full of water. Full spoilers
>and flying it onto the runway to engage the LS's powerful Tost drum
>brake (not!) was the only thing that kept me out of the swampy
>overrun. The tow pilot was smart enough to coast to a stop off the
>left edge of the runway, leaving me room to scoot past on the right
>edge of the pavement. I ended up with the tow rope wrapped around my
>axle but no harm done.

I doubt very much if the brake fitted to any glider is going to stop it
anytime soon if it is full of water and even if it did I suppose the water
would be handy to put out the brake fire. In the case of the LAK it is a
heavy beast even without the water, as anyone who has been conned into
rigging one will testify. If the tug does not get out of the way it's
going to collect the glider.
>

[Frank Whiteley]

> I doubt very much if the brake fitted to any glider is going to stop it
> anytime soon if it is full of water and even if it did I suppose the water
> would be handy to put out the brake fire. In the case of the LAK it is a
> heavy beast even without the water, as anyone who has been conned into
> rigging one will testify. If the tug does not get out of the way it's
> going to collect the glider.
>
>
Looks like a LAK 17 rather than a 12.

[cernauta]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:46:05 +0200, "Maciek K." >
wrote:

>Also the weather was very poor: four tasks
>played during 16 days of competition (two of them played on the 16th day -
>yes, two tasks played one day).

I was too curious, so I find found out!

http://www.soaringspot.com/smpj/results/mixed/day-by-day.html

Aldo Cernezzi

[Doug Hoffman]

On Aug 30, 8:15*pm, Don Johnstone > wrote:

> In the case of the LAK it is a heavy beast even without
> the water, as anyone who has been conned into
> rigging one will testify.

Sorry to go off-topic but the LAK-12 (to which you must be referring,
though this glider is a LAK-17) is 100 pounds lighter than an ASW-17.
So when you say "heavy beast" I assume you are referring not to the
glider itself, which is on the light side for a 20.5-meter. You must
be referring to the fact that the wings are one-piece. All that is
needed is a decent wing-rigging dolly and so forth and it becomes a
one-man operation. The dolly carries the weight, not the human. But
without proper knowledge of how to align the wings it will be
difficult to assemble. With proper knowledge and rigging aids it is a
rather easy one-man operation. The secret to rigging a LAK-12 is
finesse, not brute force. Disassembly is rather easy since no finesse
(critical wing alignment) is required. I suspect the same is true of
many 15-meter gliders.

Regards,

-Doug

[Limus]

Ouch. Myself being Lak-17 owner it was just painful watching that
beautiful wing getting chopped off.

Looking at the takeoff I can see the glider was loaded with water to
the top and wheel brakes are pretty weak on Lak-17s.

Limus

[Derek Copeland[_2_]]

Isn't there supposed to be a convention that the tug pilot turns right and
the glider pilot turns left (or the other way round) in the event of an
engine failure during the take off ground run?

Derek C

At 23:13 31 August 2009, Limus wrote:
>Ouch. Myself being Lak-17 owner it was just painful watching that
>beautiful wing getting chopped off.
>
>Looking at the takeoff I can see the glider was loaded with water to
>the top and wheel brakes are pretty weak on Lak-17s.
>
>Limus
>

[Al Eddie[_3_]]

At 13:00 01 September 2009, Derek Copeland wrote:
>Isn't there supposed to be a convention that the tug pilot turns right
and
>the glider pilot turns left (or the other way round) in the event of an
>engine failure during the take off ground run?
>
>Derek C


Hmmm....

Maybe in a wide open space like Lasham, but be careful not to plant a bad
seed here, Derek.

;o)

[Doug Hoffman]

On Sep 1, 9:00*am, Derek Copeland > wrote:
> Isn't there supposed to be a convention that the tug pilot turns right and
> the glider pilot turns left (or the other way round) in the event of an
> engine failure during the take off ground run?

In the US I believe the answer is yes. From my copy of the SSA
Soaring Flight Manual:

"If the towplane loses power, the sailplane pilot should immediately
release, maneuver to the right of the towplane, and stop as quickly as
possible. The tow pilot can then discontinue the takeoff and maneuver
to the left side of the runway."

Regards,

-Doug

[Mike the Strike]

>
> "If the towplane loses power, the sailplane pilot should immediately
> release, maneuver to the right of the towplane, and stop as quickly as
> possible. *The tow pilot can then discontinue the takeoff and maneuver
> to the left side of the runway."

This is exactly what I did many years ago in the same situation. I
was unable to stop my ballasted open-class ship before reaching the
towplane and coasted past it on the right. I recall seeing the
propeller stop abruptly as I was just about airborne. He pulled to
the left and I went right - no problem.

Mike

[[email protected]]

On Aug 30, 10:06*am, bildan > wrote:
> On Aug 29, 6:05*pm, tstock > wrote:
>
> > On Aug 29, 4:34*pm, wrote:
>
> > > Educational video...
> > > Murphy's law at work... one thing leads to another...
> > > towplane: Wilga
> > > glider: LAK
> > > place and time: competition at Pila in Poland, late August 2009
> > > towplane's engine misses than cuts off during takeoff
> > > prop collides with the wingtiphttp://picasaweb.google.pl/Wojtekpara/Wypadek#5238527461393125826
>
> > > Andre V, CFIG
>
> > Any clues as to what caused the tow pilot to lose control at the end
> > of the runway and/or make the hard right turn into the glider's path?
>
> After watching this a couple of times, it appears to me the tug pilot
> intended to turn around and didn't lose control until he saw the
> glider about to collide with him - a failure to maintain situational
> awareness.
>
> I've had a tug abruptly stop on the runway centerline just after I was
> airborne forcing me to fly around him - it's an experience I won't
> forget. *Just as in flight, the tug pilot should bear left if aborting
> takeoff on the runway so the glider has somewhere to go.
>
> The PZL 104 Wilga's Russian Ivchenko/Vedeneyev radial can be a cranky
> beast - 'ready to go' and 'ready to quit' sound about the same. *The
> tug pilot may have been confused by that.

Could well be that tug pilot just lost it. When taking off with
glider, it doesn't take a huge amount of effort to stay straight- the
rope does that for you. Now get surprised by engine puke, start to
swing off runway, wake up and try to catch it quick, overcorrect on
non skid pavement, and you are around before you can believe it.
Stuff happens pretty fast sometimes.
UH

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 09:25:38 -0700, unclhank wrote:

>
> Could well be that tug pilot just lost it. When taking off with glider,
> it doesn't take a huge amount of effort to stay straight- the rope does
> that for you. Now get surprised by engine puke, start to swing off
> runway, wake up and try to catch it quick, overcorrect on non skid
> pavement, and you are around before you can believe it. Stuff happens
> pretty fast sometimes.
>
It looks the tuggie lost it and ground looped - even a semi-controlled
turn wouldn't put the Wilga's left tip on the floor like that.

The unasked and unanswered question, though, is why didn't the tuggie
abort the launch when his engine almost died just after they started to
roll?


--
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gregorie. | Essex, UK
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