36HP VW Engine

[Claton Cadmus]

I have a 1959 36HP VW engine and would like information and opinions
on converting this for use in a small single place homebuilt. Also
can anyone tell me or point me to a source of this engines HP and,
more importantly, torque vs RPM curve.

Thanks Claton

[Corky Scott]

On 22 Oct 2003 08:50:28 -0700, (Claton Cadmus) wrote:

>I have a 1959 36HP VW engine and would like information and opinions
>on converting this for use in a small single place homebuilt. Also
>can anyone tell me or point me to a source of this engines HP and,
>more importantly, torque vs RPM curve.
>
>Thanks Claton

Claton, are you just stepping into this world for the first time
without knowing what history has gone by about this engine as used for
an aircraft engine?

Thanks, Corky Scott

[Ken Reynolds]

Great plains aircraft in Nebraska specialise in VW aircraft engines and
parts. They publish an engine manual which is very good.
Regards
Ken

[JFLEISC]

>I have a 1959 36HP VW engine

I've only seen one of these engines in 35 years. Don't think there is much
available for it any more. Bet you could trade it to a collector or museum for
something more up to date.

Jim

[BD5ER]

>I have a 1959 36HP VW engine and would like information and opinions
>on converting this for use in a small single place homebuilt.

My opinion - Don't even think about it. Sell that antique (not a derogatory
statement, I liked the old 36) on eBay to someone that is restoring a bug and
use the money for for a "modern" VW if you have your heart set on using a VW
motor for an aircraft.

If you insist on using the 36 I've got a good counterweighted crank for one I
might sell.

[Claton Cadmus]

(Corky Scott) wrote in message >...

> Claton, are you just stepping into this world for the first time
> without knowing what history has gone by about this engine as used for
> an aircraft engine?
>
> Thanks, Corky Scott

Yes, if I knew the history of the engine as it pertains to homebuilt
aircraft I wouldn't need to ask the question. I do know that the
horespower rating on an engine is not at important as it's torque.

Do you have anything constructive to add?

Claton

[Marvin Barnard]

Claton, First buy a copy of "Hot VW's " magazine at the drug store.
Next look for a rebuildable "core" dualport engine built after '68
expect to pay $100.00..... you can build one up for about 500- 800
bucks, (there's a little machine work to do if you want to use big bore
cylinders.) Expect 55 honest horsepower if you build an 1835 version.
The VW aftermarket parts sources are enormous! Have fun!
.........Marvin www.flysquirrel.net

[Tom Cummings]

Claton,
These engines were used in light homebuilts before the 1300cc and up engines
were available. I am talking light weight single seaters. i.e., Tipsey
Nipper.
I built a 1200 cc VW which I think is a 36 horsepower. I happened to have
two of these in my backyard so I just wanted to see if one could be
converted after an A&P advised me to use one on my small Supercat airplane.
I don't remember the year of the engine. It has oversized jugs making it a
1385cc. Jugs went from 77 to 83mm. Stock crank is 61mm opposed to a 69mm for
a 1600cc. It is installed on the Supercat homebuilt but has not been flown.
Test runs indicated 3250 rpms using a 54X24 wideblade Tennesee prop, which
is too big for the engine. Old modifications back in the 60s for a 1200cc
engine included installing Corvair cylinders which increased the
displacement some more. (lot of machine work)
Great Plains Aircraft does not carry a full line of replacement parts for a
36 horse engine. Cylinders, pistons, rods, and heads from a 1600 won't fit.
Not very many of the parts are interchangable. Crank and rod bearings will
fit. Cam will fit. Flywheel endpiece is different. A 1600cc flywheel won't
seal at the case because the rear of the crank is different. Heads are
different - smaller valves - single port. Rods are shorter therefore the
case is narrower. I liked to have never found four rebuilt rods for my
rebuild. No cam bearings are used in the 36 horse engine. The only place I
know to get a rebuild kit is J. C Whitney. It cost more than a 1600 kit. The
larger jugs came from Larry's Offroad Supply. He just happened to have a
set. I would use a 1600 if I were to do it over. But I sucessfully converted
the engine. I did use a Great Plains hub. See some pics at
http://www.geocities.com/tomlc1/Volks.html
and at http://www.geocities.com/tomlc1/volks2.html
Tom Cummings
"Claton Cadmus" > wrote in message
om...
> (Corky Scott) wrote in message
>...
>
> > Claton, are you just stepping into this world for the first time
> > without knowing what history has gone by about this engine as used for
> > an aircraft engine?
> >
> > Thanks, Corky Scott
>
> Yes, if I knew the history of the engine as it pertains to homebuilt
> aircraft I wouldn't need to ask the question. I do know that the
> horespower rating on an engine is not at important as it's torque.
>
> Do you have anything constructive to add?
>
> Claton

[Corky Scott]

On 22 Oct 2003 17:23:37 -0700, (Claton Cadmus) wrote:

(Corky Scott) wrote in message >...
>
>> Claton, are you just stepping into this world for the first time
>> without knowing what history has gone by about this engine as used for
>> an aircraft engine?
>>
>> Thanks, Corky Scott
>
>Yes, if I knew the history of the engine as it pertains to homebuilt
>aircraft I wouldn't need to ask the question. I do know that the
>horespower rating on an engine is not at important as it's torque.
>
>Do you have anything constructive to add?
>
>Claton

Sorry Claton, I wanted to find out where you were in understanding
what it takes to make an airworthy engine out of the VW.

My understanding is that the engine cannot be used as is. I don't
know how you intended to use it, whether you wanted to simply bolt a
prop to it or use a Prop Speed Reduction Unit. The crankshaft has
been proven not strong enough to handle the prop loads when used as a
direct drive engine. The crank snaps off at the prop, eventually.

The 36 horsepower you mention is what the engine makes at full rated
rpm. If there is a prop bolted to the engine, the engine cannot turn
full rated rpm because the prop will be spinning too fast: the prop
tips approach or even exceed the speed of sound. When the tips get
going that fast, they have the very same reaction to sonic speed that
ordinary wings do, they produce massive amounts of drag.

Since the engine has to rev up to make it's 36 horsepower, you have to
cut down the prop to allow it to do this. The reduced disc size of
the prop makes it very inefficient in terms of producing thrust.

Then there are issues with the case, which has proven weak too.

There are several companies that produce airworthy versions of the
venerable VW engine, but there are very few original parts left. The
case is stronger, the cylinders are aftermarket racing jugs, the
valves are bigger, the cam is different, and of course, the crankshaft
is forged and machined to withstand prop loads.

I didn't know if you understood all that, which is why I asked.

My apologies if the question upset you.

Corky Scott

[Peter Dohm]

These engines were used, I assume with some success, in aircraft such
as the Jodel D9; and were claimed, by the aircraft plans provider, to
produce roughly 24 or 25 horsepower at typical aircraft engine rotational
speeds.


The Jodel had an empty weight just over 300 pounds, gross weight of about
500 pounds, and supposedly cruised around 60 statute miles per hour with
a takeoff run of less than 250 feet and obstacle clearance distance of less
than 500 feet. Little has been heard of the D9 or similar aircraft since
ultra lights ceased to be foot-launched.

Please be aware that the VW engines of 1200 cc and less displacement, and
probably the 1300 cc engine as well, had a serious oil pressure problem
in long term service. The camshaft of these early engines rode directly
in the crankcase halves without bearing liners. As wear occurred, some
mechanics attempted to have the mating surfaces of the case halves milled
and the complete case line-bored. The process was only partially effective
and it was generally impossible to fully restore oil pressure to these
engines on any long term basis.

Please also remember that VW engines from relatively new cars with only a
few thousand miles of use were dirt cheap in wrecking yards and that new
engines were available at very reasonable prices from every VW dealer in
both the US and France (were the D9 was designed) when these aircraft were
designed and for about two decades after that.

Another aircraft using similar power was the Stewart Headwind. Mr. Stewart
is still in business selling plans for his designs and has a web site at
http://www.StewartAircraft.com/main.html

Personally, I agree with BD5ER and JFLEISC that you should treat the 36hp
engine as having primarily antique value and choose something else to
power your project.

Peter

Claton Cadmus wrote:
>
> I have a 1959 36HP VW engine and would like information and opinions
> on converting this for use in a small single place homebuilt. Also
> can anyone tell me or point me to a source of this engines HP and,
> more importantly, torque vs RPM curve.
>
> Thanks Claton

[clare @ snyder.on .ca]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:11:37 GMT, Peter Dohm >
wrote:

>These engines were used, I assume with some success, in aircraft such
>as the Jodel D9; and were claimed, by the aircraft plans provider, to
>produce roughly 24 or 25 horsepower at typical aircraft engine rotational
>speeds.
>
>
>The Jodel had an empty weight just over 300 pounds, gross weight of about
>500 pounds, and supposedly cruised around 60 statute miles per hour with
>a takeoff run of less than 250 feet and obstacle clearance distance of less
>than 500 feet. Little has been heard of the D9 or similar aircraft since
>ultra lights ceased to be foot-launched.
>
>Please be aware that the VW engines of 1200 cc and less displacement, and
>probably the 1300 cc engine as well, had a serious oil pressure problem
>in long term service. The camshaft of these early engines rode directly
>in the crankcase halves without bearing liners. As wear occurred, some
>mechanics attempted to have the mating surfaces of the case halves milled
>and the complete case line-bored. The process was only partially effective
>and it was generally impossible to fully restore oil pressure to these
>engines on any long term basis.
>
Not only that, those cases are Magnesium, and they deteriorate
significantly with age. They harden, granulate, and crack.
Either start with a later model magnesium case (still risky) or get a
new aluminum universal replacement case and go from there.

>Please also remember that VW engines from relatively new cars with only a
>few thousand miles of use were dirt cheap in wrecking yards and that new
>engines were available at very reasonable prices from every VW dealer in
>both the US and France (were the D9 was designed) when these aircraft were
>designed and for about two decades after that.
>
>Another aircraft using similar power was the Stewart Headwind. Mr. Stewart
>is still in business selling plans for his designs and has a web site at
>http://www.StewartAircraft.com/main.html
>
>Personally, I agree with BD5ER and JFLEISC that you should treat the 36hp
>engine as having primarily antique value and choose something else to
>power your project.
>
>Peter
>
>Claton Cadmus wrote:
>>
>> I have a 1959 36HP VW engine and would like information and opinions
>> on converting this for use in a small single place homebuilt. Also
>> can anyone tell me or point me to a source of this engines HP and,
>> more importantly, torque vs RPM curve.
>>
>> Thanks Claton
>

[Ray]

Also, the 36 HP VW engine as well as the earlier 25 HP had the generator
town cast into the case as well, You can't just unbolt it like you could on
the 40 HP 1200cc and later.

[Peter Dohm]

clare, @, snyder.on, .ca wrote:
>
> On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 15:11:37 GMT, Peter Dohm >
> wrote:
>
> >These engines were used, I assume with some success, in aircraft such
> >as the Jodel D9; and were claimed, by the aircraft plans provider, to
> >produce roughly 24 or 25 horsepower at typical aircraft engine rotational
> >speeds.
> >
> >
> >The Jodel had an empty weight just over 300 pounds, gross weight of about
> >500 pounds, and supposedly cruised around 60 statute miles per hour with
> >a takeoff run of less than 250 feet and obstacle clearance distance of less
> >than 500 feet. Little has been heard of the D9 or similar aircraft since
> >ultra lights ceased to be foot-launched.
> >
> >Please be aware that the VW engines of 1200 cc and less displacement, and
> >probably the 1300 cc engine as well, had a serious oil pressure problem
> >in long term service. The camshaft of these early engines rode directly
> >in the crankcase halves without bearing liners. As wear occurred, some
> >mechanics attempted to have the mating surfaces of the case halves milled
> >and the complete case line-bored. The process was only partially effective
> >and it was generally impossible to fully restore oil pressure to these
> >engines on any long term basis.
> >
> Not only that, those cases are Magnesium, and they deteriorate
> significantly with age. They harden, granulate, and crack.
> Either start with a later model magnesium case (still risky) or get a
> new aluminum universal replacement case and go from there.
>
Excellent point. I had forgotten that replacement cases might be available.
Who makes them, and who distributes them. Also do you know of a source for
new replacement cases and heads for the Corvair?

> >Please also remember that VW engines from relatively new cars with only a
> >few thousand miles of use were dirt cheap in wrecking yards and that new
> >engines were available at very reasonable prices from every VW dealer in
> >both the US and France (were the D9 was designed) when these aircraft were
> >designed and for about two decades after that.
> >
> >Another aircraft using similar power was the Stewart Headwind. Mr. Stewart
> >is still in business selling plans for his designs and has a web site at
> >http://www.StewartAircraft.com/main.html
> >
> >Personally, I agree with BD5ER and JFLEISC that you should treat the 36hp
> >engine as having primarily antique value and choose something else to
> >power your project.
> >
> >Peter
> >
> >Claton Cadmus wrote:
> >>
> >> I have a 1959 36HP VW engine and would like information and opinions
> >> on converting this for use in a small single place homebuilt. Also
> >> can anyone tell me or point me to a source of this engines HP and,
> >> more importantly, torque vs RPM curve.
> >>
> >> Thanks Claton
> >

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