Landings in phase 1 of flight test

[Stanley]

I am having some trouble finding the rules.
I have a friend that is ready for the DAR. When discussing the flight
test area, my friend was trying to include some local airports if
possible. The DAR responded that he would not be able to land there in
phase 1.
While I have seen that this type of restriction has been added to the
operating limitations on other aircraft in phase 1, I have not yet
found the rule that says that is necessary.

Can someone here enlighten me on this issue?

Thanks

[BobR]

On Sep 16, 2:03*pm, Stanley > wrote:
> I am having some trouble finding the rules.
> I have a friend that is ready for the DAR. When discussing the flight
> test area, my friend was trying to include some local airports if
> possible. The DAR responded that he would not be able to land there in
> phase 1.
> While I have seen that this type of restriction has been added to the
> operating limitations on other aircraft in phase 1, I have not yet
> found the rule that says that is necessary.
>
> Can someone here enlighten me on this issue?
>
> Thanks

From everything I have seen in the past, your options during phase 1
flight testing are very limited in both what airport you can use and
where the test flights must be performed. Generally speaking, you
will be limited to your home airport unless it is within a heavily
populated area in which case you may not be allowed to perform the
phase 1 from your home airport. (Now doesn't that sound like fun?)
You will also be limited in how far you may fly from your home base
and that usually means to the assigned practice area and back. Phase
1 is NOT just flying around and having a good time, it is for serious
testing of your aircraft.

[pittss1c[_2_]]

While I agree 100% what the purpose of this 40 hrs. I don't see in the
regs where is requires the DAR to impose a a limitation to a single
airport.
I see my friend's point that it would be nice to be able to land at an
additional airport within his flight test area.
The flight test period is also the same weather you are testing a new
radical design or your 3rd RV with a lycosaurus.
Considered the difference in time required between the same airplane
with a certified engine or with a certified engine that the DAR will
not consider a certified engine? What additional flight testing are
you planning for those 15 hrs?
Just saying, if the FARs don't prohibit it, it might be nice to be
able to land at an airport in your practice area and get a burger
between flight tests.

[Brian Whatcott]

pittss1c wrote:
> While I agree 100% what the purpose of this 40 hrs. I don't see in the
> regs where is requires the DAR to impose a a limitation to a single
> airport.
> I see my friend's point that it would be nice to be able to land at an
> additional airport within his flight test area.
> The flight test period is also the same weather you are testing a new
> radical design or your 3rd RV with a lycosaurus.
> Considered the difference in time required between the same airplane
> with a certified engine or with a certified engine that the DAR will
> not consider a certified engine? What additional flight testing are
> you planning for those 15 hrs?
> Just saying, if the FARs don't prohibit it, it might be nice to be
> able to land at an airport in your practice area and get a burger
> between flight tests.


How about adopting the attitude that something may drop off, come loose
or go into vibration - and you don't want to be thinking of $100 bergers
at that point? :-)

Brian W

[Jim Logajan]

Stanley > wrote:
> I am having some trouble finding the rules.
> I have a friend that is ready for the DAR. When discussing the flight
> test area, my friend was trying to include some local airports if
> possible. The DAR responded that he would not be able to land there in
> phase 1.
> While I have seen that this type of restriction has been added to the
> operating limitations on other aircraft in phase 1, I have not yet
> found the rule that says that is necessary.

This appears to be the only relevant regulation:

"91.305 Flight test areas

No person may flight test an aircraft except over open water, or sparsely
populated areas, having light air traffic."

The most relevant AC, wherein airport selection is discussed, appears to be
this one:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraft/media/ac90-89a.pdf

[pittss1c[_2_]]

If his goal was to use his flight test period for $100 burgers, I
would of course just dismiss him as an idiot.
He was just curious if it was a reg or a DAR preference. While I have
not done a first flight, I have flown time off a plane after rest and
reassembly.
I remember something needing attention after almost every flight. Of
course, around here, aircraft inspection is kind of a spectator sport.
10 eyes is often better than 2. (it takes a village)
Unless I hear differently, it sounds like it is not a FAA requirement,
but possibly a common constraint added by the DAR to the operating
limitations in phase 1.

thanks

[Morgans[_2_]]

"pittss1c" > wrote

> The flight test period is also the same weather you are testing a new
> radical design or your 3rd RV with a lycosaurus.

Not so. If you are using an engine and propeller combination that was
certified in any certified aircraft the flight test may be, and probably
will be, reduced to 25 hours.
--
Jim in NC

[cavelamb[_2_]]

Morgans wrote:
>
> "pittss1c" > wrote
>
>> The flight test period is also the same weather you are testing a new
>> radical design or your 3rd RV with a lycosaurus.
>
> Not so. If you are using an engine and propeller combination that was
> certified in any certified aircraft the flight test may be, and probably
> will be, reduced to 25 hours.


I don't know how the DARs do it, but in the old days when the FAA did
inspections they could set any restrictions they wanted.

Including things like time of flight - 6:00AM to 6:01AM.
It all depended on how they felt about the design, workmanship, and
pilot capabilities.

One story goes that it was the FAA reps that vetoed John Dyke's intent
to use foam cored fiberglass for primary structure in the Dyke Delta.
To radical for the times.

Remember, any particular DAR is NOT obliged to approve your project.

For what it's worth...

Richard

[pittss1c[_2_]]

On Sep 17, 6:45*pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "pittss1c" > wrote
>
> > The flight test period is also the same weather you are testing a new
> > radical design or your 3rd RV with a lycosaurus.
>
> Not so. *If you are using an engine and propeller combination that was
> certified in any certified aircraft the flight test may be, and probably
> will be, reduced to 25 hours.
> --
> Jim in NC

Right. I think if you were to take one right from the overhaul shop or
new from the box, that is easily the case.
When it comes off an existing experimental, it is not so easy.
Besides, I think the dataplate was removed from the pan to comply with
the letter of the law, so there is no chance of it being considered a
certified engine (even though it has 100% certified parts, and has 300
hrs of proven operation)