Retrieve Contact - Radio Relay?

[V1]

Most of the discussion I’ve seen related to arranging for a retrieve
after a remote land-out has focused on either cell phone (often not
available), text message (slightly better than cell phone), or
satellite-based like ELB, PLB, & SPOT (only one-way, no confirmation
your message was received).

I’m wondering about the practicality of getting an aircraft radio
relay. In other words, making an (emergency?) call on common
frequencies to establish contact with a private or commercial flight,
with the request to relay the information to your intended contact by
radio or phone. Not something to do on a regular basis, but possibly
when other methods fail or are not available. This would obviously be
dependent on the position and willingness of airborne aircraft, and
the continued operability of your own radio & batteries.

Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? Or any
input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?

- Frank

[sisu1a]

> I’m wondering about the practicality of getting an aircraft radio
> relay. In other words, making an (emergency?) call on common
> frequencies to establish contact with a private or commercial flight,
> with the request to relay the information to your intended contact by
> radio or phone. Not something to do on a regular basis, but possibly
> when other methods fail or are not available. This would obviously be
> dependent on the position and willingness of airborne aircraft, and
> the continued operability of your own radio & batteries.
>
> Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
> input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
>
> - Frank

Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
still utilized when needed. I've never done it myself, but know about
many times it has been done. Most if not all pilots are more than
happy to help out a fellow aviator and as I understand things, most
airliner pilots are usually happy to break up the routine of boring
the same hole through the sky... I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
license to operate a 2 way ;)

-Paul

[CindyB]

On Sep 20, 11:46*am, sisu1a > wrote:

>
> > Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
> > input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
>
> > - Frank
>
> Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly

> I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
> but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
> The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
> license to operate a 2 way ;)
>
> -Paul

This is a very valid techinique.
It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
in several situations.

Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
message. The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
ATC frequency. Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.

Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
over creation. Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
and
pilots seeking each other. Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
and lightning in many quadrants. Contest Air goes home. One
crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
airliner
reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
his position and handed data to crew.

Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
stepping on transmissions. . .

Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
not been heard from and it was long after dark. We had launched
Contest Air for relays, sent Air on course line ( love those AST's
for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
contest HQ ground. Three airplanes tried to help that
night. Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
highway. He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
out from the glider prior to walking. We were certain to thank
ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.

Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
'boonies'. Communications can be important to prevent
unneccesary search or worries. If the radio work is handled
fairly professionally, with good cause, no one (FAA/FCC)
will make a fuss.

Cindy B
www.caracolesoaring.com

[jeplane]

Please do call on 121.5!

I am one of the few looking for entertainment at FL 410 flying a
Citation Sovereign, and I have sat phone in this plane.

Besides, I'll be more than likely jealous of all theses CU's I will
have seen way, way below, and I wanna know how your day went!!!...:-)

Richard, limo driver
ASW19 on days off...
Phoenix,AZ

[Robert Gaines[_2_]]

In other words, making an (emergency?) call on common
>frequencies to establish contact with a private or commercial flight,
>with the request to relay the information to your intended contact by
>radio or phone.>



Unless things have changed, commercial (Airliners) do not monitor 121.5.
Bob

[Chris Ruf]

Flying out of Marfa Texas, about 5 years ago a couple of us landed out
- and I do mean out. I had to hike a few miles past several jack
rabbits, and many spiders and snakes to the only ranch house on
200,000 acres.
We were having little luck with cell phones so I tried to get an
airliner to relay. I called on 121.5 multiple times. We were just in
such a remote area I got no response.
Luckily we did not have an emergency because we had no luck with the
airliner relay.

I'd try the scan function on my handheld radio next time as that is a
good suggestion.
How else would you know what frequency to try to call on?

I figured that a 5w handheld radio would have a pretty good range to
reach airliners at cruising height.

Chris

[jcarlyle]

I don't know about that. My club uses handhelds for the field crew,
and at 4,000 to 5,000 feet 2 to 3 miles away from the field you cannot
hear the field radios at all (although they can easily hear a glider
radio from that distance and height).

-John

Chris Ruf wrote:
> I figured that a 5w handheld radio would have a pretty good range to
> reach airliners at cruising height.

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

Earlier this summer, I answered a call on 123.300 from an glider pilot
flying overhead at FL370 asking how things were down there. So, I think
there are still many listening on frequencies we use, and on 121.500.

I also remember hearing Ned Wilson tell of calling a tower on 121.500 and
apologizing because he didn't know their frequency. By all means, use
121.500 if you need it. Tell them it is not life threatening (if indeed
it isn't), and someone will be happy to help.

This same tower had previously (not that day) not responded to calls by a
glider on their frequency. The glider was in their airspace and might be
needing to land at their airport. After his third or fourth call, the
tower responded in a winded voice "Say again calling tower? We were out
watching the glider!"

Steve Leonard

[Mike Bamberg]

On Sep 20, 7:16*pm, Chris Ruf > wrote:
> Flying out of Marfa Texas, about 5 years ago a couple of us landed out
> - and I do mean out. *I had to hike a few miles past several jack
> rabbits, and many spiders and snakes to the only ranch house on
> 200,000 acres.
> We were having little luck with cell phones so I tried to get an
> airliner to relay. *I called on 121.5 multiple times. *We were just in
> such a remote area I got no response.
> *Luckily we did not have an emergency because we had no luck with the
> airliner relay.
>
> I'd try the scan function on my handheld radio next time as that is a
> good suggestion.
> How else would you know what frequency to try to call on?
>
> I figured that a 5w handheld radio would have a pretty good range to
> reach airliners at cruising height.
>
> Chris

I teach power-plane instruction as well as glider and teach my
students to monitor 121.5 if they can, while remaining on the assigned
frequency. I've also heard a number of airlines contacted by ATC and
asked to monitor 121.5 and they almost always reply that it is their
standard procedure.

The chances of someone listening to 121.5 is pretty good but as noted
above, not guarenteed.

Mike

[Brian[_1_]]

On Sep 20, 8:15*pm, Robert Gaines >
wrote:
> In other words, making an (emergency?) call on common
>
> >frequencies to establish contact with a private or commercial flight,
> >with the request to relay the information to your intended contact by
> >radio or phone.>
>
> Unless things have changed, commercial (Airliners) do not monitor 121.5.
> *Bob

My understanding is that since 9/11 this has changed and they do often
monitor 121.5 while enroute.

However I would love to hear from some of the airline pilots to
confirm or refute this information.

The glider pilots/airline pilots I know also often monitor 123.3. I
will check with them when I get a change to see if they routinely
monitor 121.5.

Brian
CFIIG/ASE

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 20, 7:15*pm, Robert Gaines >
wrote:
> In other words, making an (emergency?) call on common
>
> >frequencies to establish contact with a private or commercial flight,
> >with the request to relay the information to your intended contact by
> >radio or phone.>
>
> Unless things have changed, commercial (Airliners) do not monitor 121.5.
> *Bob

Do not? Like no airlines out there listening? Like no airline requires
or recommends this in their SOP? Like crews won't guard 121.5 even if
their company SOP does not require it? I suspect that just is not
correct and is certainly the wrong message to send.

I think the airlines are pretty individual about whether this is a
requirement or recommendation in their SOP or not. Some airline pilots
might want to speak up.

There is an ICAO requirement (in Annex 10, Part 5) for airlines to
guard 121.5. This at least is required on long overwater flights and
more ambiguously "where carriage of an ELT is required". What exactly
the later means is open to some interpretation. I think the net is
many intentional airlines will have guarding 121.5 in their SOP.

The bottom line is it's worth trying there is often people listening
on 121.5. Including lots of airlines whether it is their company SOP
or not.

---

And while on ELTs in the ICAO rule above, new 406MHz ELTs and PLBs
still also transmit a (low power) beacon on 121.5 so airliners and
others guarding that frequency for ELT as well as voice still makes
sense. But now hopefully as people refresh their ELTs with newer units
the false alarm rate will go down. And just a hint if your buddy is
flying with a Personal Locator Beacon (more common that ELTs in
gliders) and you think he may be down/in distress tune to 121.5 and
you should hear the distress "siren" sound, with the addition of a
morse code "P" (for PLB) dit dah dah dit. This only applies to USA
licensed PLBs, in other countries there is no Morse code "P".


Darryl

[bumper[_2_]]

On Sep 20, 9:08*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:

> The bottom line is it's worth trying there is often people listening
> on 121.5. Including lots of airlines whether it is their company SOP
> or not.

>
> Darryl

A couple of years ago, wife and I came across a body in the Black Rock
desert of Nevada while flying low in the Husky - - thought he was for
sure dead. After landing and determining he was still alive, we called
on 121.5 for medical assistance. Airliner overhead answered up
immediately. In fact, there were at least a couple of other aircraft
answering at the same time (including another Husky up by the NV / OR
border) - - they were stepping on each other answering up! Airliner
relayed to Reno Approach for us, as we were 100 nm north of there with
no cell coverage and no chance of getting other ground stations on the
radio from our position.

Guy survived, btw, though I don't think he'd have lasted though the
day in that heat if he hadn't been found.

bumper
zz
Minden

[jeplane]

On Sep 20, 7:15*pm, Robert Gaines >
wrote:

> Unless things have changed, commercial (Airliners) do not monitor 121.5.
> *Bob

This is incorrect.

Quite the opposite in fact, when after 9/11, we were reminded to
monitor this frequency since the military will be calling us during an
interception.

Airlines DO monitor it! You should hear the number of times Jet Blue
or United try to get a "push back" from the gate on 121.5!!!...:-)

Single engine are also supposed to monitor it. Every month I hear the
Air Force trying to get a heads up to someone who is about to enter a
restricted airspace...

Richard

[vontresc]

On Sep 21, 8:02*am, jeplane > wrote:
> On Sep 20, 7:15*pm, Robert Gaines >
> wrote:
>
> > Unless things have changed, commercial (Airliners) do not monitor 121.5..
> > *Bob
>
> This is incorrect.
>
> Quite the opposite in fact, when after 9/11, we were reminded to
> monitor this frequency since the military will be calling us during an
> interception.
>
> Airlines DO monitor it! You should hear the number of times Jet Blue
> or United try to get a "push back" from the gate on 121.5!!!...:-)
>
> Single engine are also supposed to monitor it. Every month I hear the
> Air Force trying to get a heads up to someone who is about to enter a
> restricted airspace...
>
> Richard

I managed to arrange a radio relay on my one and only landout so far.
I ended up getting a hold of one of my gliding buddies on 123.3, and
he had the tow plane come up to the strip where I had landed for an
aero retrieve.

As for 121.5 The AIM does "encourage" you to listen on 121.5 if
possible in flight.

AIM 5-6-2 - http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0506.html

"All aircraft operating in the U.S. national airspace, if capable,
will maintain a listening watch on VHF guard 121.5 or UHF 243.0."

Peter

[Bela[_2_]]

On Sep 20, 6:57*pm, CindyB > wrote:
> On Sep 20, 11:46*am, sisu1a > wrote:
>
>
>
> > > Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
> > > input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
>
> > > - Frank
>
> > Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
> > I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
> > but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
> > The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
> > license to operate a 2 way ;)
>
> > -Paul
>
> This is a very valid techinique.
> It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
> or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
> in several situations.
>
> Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
> poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
> When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
> He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
> enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
> message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
> ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
> himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
> best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
>
> Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
> over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
> and
> pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
> rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
> and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
> crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
> talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
> airliner
> reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
> his position and handed data to crew.
>
> Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
> range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
> stepping on transmissions. . .
>
> Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
> not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
> Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
> for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
> Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
> frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
> contest HQ ground. *Three airplanes tried to help that
> night. *Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
> Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
> highway. *He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
> reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
> a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
> out from the glider prior to walking. *We were certain to thank
> ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.
>
> Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
> 'boonies'. *Communications can be important to prevent
> unneccesary search or worries. *If the radio work is handled
> fairly professionally, with good cause, no one *(FAA/FCC)
> will make a fuss.
>
> Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com

A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
the same.
Response was: a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
i.e.: asking for relay, not an emergency.
I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
Here is a good source:
http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
Bela

[bgrly]

On Sep 21, 3:15*pm, Bela > wrote:
> On Sep 20, 6:57*pm, CindyB > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 20, 11:46*am, sisu1a > wrote:
>
> > > > Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
> > > > input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
>
> > > > - Frank
>
> > > Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
> > > I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
> > > but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq..
> > > The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
> > > license to operate a 2 way ;)
>
> > > -Paul
>
> > This is a very valid techinique.
> > It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
> > or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
> > in several situations.
>
> > Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
> > poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
> > When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
> > He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
> > enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
> > message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
> > ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
> > himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
> > best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
>
> > Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
> > over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
> > and
> > pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
> > rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
> > and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
> > crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
> > talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
> > airliner
> > reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
> > his position and handed data to crew.
>
> > Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
> > range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
> > stepping on transmissions. . .
>
> > Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
> > not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
> > Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
> > for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
> > Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
> > frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
> > contest HQ ground. *Three airplanes tried to help that
> > night. *Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
> > Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
> > highway. *He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
> > reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
> > a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
> > out from the glider prior to walking. *We were certain to thank
> > ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.
>
> > Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
> > 'boonies'. *Communications can be important to prevent
> > unneccesary search or worries. *If the radio work is handled
> > fairly professionally, with good cause, no one *(FAA/FCC)
> > will make a fuss.
>
> > Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com
>
> A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
> the same.
> Response was: *a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
> i.e.: *asking for relay, not an emergency.
> I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
> Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
> Bela

Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
are quite busy.

bgrly

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 21, 3:35*pm, bgrly > wrote:
> On Sep 21, 3:15*pm, Bela > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 20, 6:57*pm, CindyB > wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 20, 11:46*am, sisu1a > wrote:
>
> > > > > Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
> > > > > input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
>
> > > > > - Frank
>
> > > > Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
> > > > I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
> > > > but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
> > > > The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
> > > > license to operate a 2 way ;)
>
> > > > -Paul
>
> > > This is a very valid techinique.
> > > It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
> > > or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
> > > in several situations.
>
> > > Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
> > > poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
> > > When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
> > > He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
> > > enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
> > > message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
> > > ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
> > > himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
> > > best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
>
> > > Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
> > > over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
> > > and
> > > pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
> > > rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
> > > and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
> > > crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
> > > talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
> > > airliner
> > > reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
> > > his position and handed data to crew.
>
> > > Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
> > > range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
> > > stepping on transmissions. . .
>
> > > Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
> > > not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
> > > Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
> > > for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot..
> > > Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
> > > frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
> > > contest HQ ground. *Three airplanes tried to help that
> > > night. *Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
> > > Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
> > > highway. *He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
> > > reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
> > > a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
> > > out from the glider prior to walking. *We were certain to thank
> > > ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.
>
> > > Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
> > > 'boonies'. *Communications can be important to prevent
> > > unneccesary search or worries. *If the radio work is handled
> > > fairly professionally, with good cause, no one *(FAA/FCC)
> > > will make a fuss.
>
> > > Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com
>
> > A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
> > the same.
> > Response was: *a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
> > i.e.: *asking for relay, not an emergency.
> > I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
> > Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
> > Bela
>
> Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
> for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
> the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
> This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
> are quite busy.
>
> bgrly

I carried these when I flew regularly out of Truckee. Got a retrieve
assist after landing out by calling on an overhead frequency then
moving to a discrete frequency.

[Ed Winchester[_2_]]

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Sep 21, 3:35 pm, bgrly > wrote:
>> On Sep 21, 3:15 pm, Bela > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 20, 6:57 pm, CindyB > wrote:
>>>> On Sep 20, 11:46 am, sisu1a > wrote:
>>>>>> Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? Or any
>>>>>> input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
>>>>>> - Frank
>>>>> Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
>>>>> I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
>>>>> but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
>>>>> The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
>>>>> license to operate a 2 way ;)
>>>>> -Paul
>>>> This is a very valid techinique.
>>>> It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
>>>> or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
>>>> in several situations.
>>>> Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
>>>> poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
>>>> When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
>>>> He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
>>>> enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
>>>> message. The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
>>>> ATC frequency. Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
>>>> himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
>>>> best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
>>>> Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
>>>> over creation. Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
>>>> and
>>>> pilots seeking each other. Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
>>>> rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
>>>> and lightning in many quadrants. Contest Air goes home. One
>>>> crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
>>>> talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
>>>> airliner
>>>> reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
>>>> his position and handed data to crew.
>>>> Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
>>>> range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
>>>> stepping on transmissions. . .
>>>> Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
>>>> not been heard from and it was long after dark. We had launched
>>>> Contest Air for relays, sent Air on course line ( love those AST's
>>>> for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
>>>> Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
>>>> frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
>>>> contest HQ ground. Three airplanes tried to help that
>>>> night. Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
>>>> Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
>>>> highway. He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
>>>> reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
>>>> a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
>>>> out from the glider prior to walking. We were certain to thank
>>>> ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.
>>>> Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
>>>> 'boonies'. Communications can be important to prevent
>>>> unneccesary search or worries. If the radio work is handled
>>>> fairly professionally, with good cause, no one (FAA/FCC)
>>>> will make a fuss.
>>>> Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com
>>> A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
>>> the same.
>>> Response was: a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
>>> i.e.: asking for relay, not an emergency.
>>> I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
>>> Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
>>> Bela
>> Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
>> for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
>> the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
>> This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
>> are quite busy.
>>
>> bgrly
>
> I carried these when I flew regularly out of Truckee. Got a retrieve
> assist after landing out by calling on an overhead frequency then
> moving to a discrete frequency.
Now there's something I was wondering about. How would you know which
discrete freq to use? Would 123.5 be appropriate, or is there a better one?

Ed

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 22, 7:09*am, Ed Winchester > wrote:
> Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > On Sep 21, 3:35 pm, bgrly > wrote:
> >> On Sep 21, 3:15 pm, Bela > wrote:
>
> >>> On Sep 20, 6:57 pm, CindyB > wrote:
> >>>> On Sep 20, 11:46 am, sisu1a > wrote:
> >>>>>> Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
> >>>>>> input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
> >>>>>> - Frank
> >>>>> Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
> >>>>> I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
> >>>>> but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
> >>>>> The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
> >>>>> license to operate a 2 way ;)
> >>>>> -Paul
> >>>> This is a very valid techinique.
> >>>> It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
> >>>> or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
> >>>> in several situations.
> >>>> Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
> >>>> poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
> >>>> When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
> >>>> He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
> >>>> enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
> >>>> message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
> >>>> ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
> >>>> himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
> >>>> best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
> >>>> Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
> >>>> over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
> >>>> and
> >>>> pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
> >>>> rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
> >>>> and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
> >>>> crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
> >>>> talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
> >>>> airliner
> >>>> reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
> >>>> his position and handed data to crew.
> >>>> Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
> >>>> range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
> >>>> stepping on transmissions. . .
> >>>> Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
> >>>> not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
> >>>> Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
> >>>> for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sep 22, 9:16*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Sep 22, 7:09*am, Ed Winchester > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Frank Whiteley wrote:
> > > On Sep 21, 3:35 pm, bgrly > wrote:
> > >> On Sep 21, 3:15 pm, Bela > wrote:
>
> > >>> On Sep 20, 6:57 pm, CindyB > wrote:
> > >>>> On Sep 20, 11:46 am, sisu1a > wrote:
> > >>>>>> Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? *Or any
> > >>>>>> input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
> > >>>>>> - Frank
> > >>>>> Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
> > >>>>> I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
> > >>>>> but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
> > >>>>> The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
> > >>>>> license to operate a 2 way ;)
> > >>>>> -Paul
> > >>>> This is a very valid techinique.
> > >>>> It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
> > >>>> or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
> > >>>> in several situations.
> > >>>> Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
> > >>>> poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
> > >>>> When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
> > >>>> He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
> > >>>> enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
> > >>>> message. *The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
> > >>>> ATC frequency. *Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
> > >>>> himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
> > >>>> best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
> > >>>> Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
> > >>>> over creation. *Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
> > >>>> and
> > >>>> pilots seeking each other. *Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
> > >>>> rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
> > >>>> and lightning in many quadrants. *Contest Air goes home. *One
> > >>>> crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
> > >>>> talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
> > >>>> airliner
> > >>>> reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
> > >>>> his position and handed data to crew.
> > >>>> Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
> > >>>> range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
> > >>>> stepping on transmissions. . .
> > >>>> Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? *Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
> > >>>> not been heard from and it was long after dark. *We had launched
> > >>>> Contest Air for relays, sent Air *on course line ( love those AST's
> > >>>> for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
> > >>>> Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
> > >>>> frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
> > >>>> contest HQ ground. *Three airplanes tried to help that
> > >>>> night. *Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
> > >>>> Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
> > >>>> highway. *He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
> > >>>> reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
> > >>>> a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
> > >>>> out from the glider prior to walking. *We were certain to thank
> > >>>> ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.
> > >>>> Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
> > >>>> 'boonies'. *Communications can be important to prevent
> > >>>> unneccesary search or worries. *If the radio work is handled
> > >>>> fairly professionally, with good cause, no one *(FAA/FCC)
> > >>>> will make a fuss.
> > >>>> Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com
> > >>> A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
> > >>> the same.
> > >>> Response was: *a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
> > >>> i.e.: *asking for relay, not an emergency.
> > >>> I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
> > >>> Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
> > >>> Bela
> > >> Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
> > >> for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
> > >> the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
> > >> This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
> > >> are quite busy.
>
> > >> bgrly
>
> > > I carried these when I flew regularly out of Truckee. *Got a retrieve
> > > assist after landing out by calling on an overhead frequency then
> > > moving to a discrete frequency.
>
> > Now there's something I was wondering about. *How would you know which
> > discrete freq to use? *Would 123.5 be appropriate, or is there a better one?
>
> > Ed
>
> Long time ago, IIRC we moved to the Truckee base for the relay.
>
> Frank

I'll add that it facilitated communications as I could hear half of
the conversation as could Tahoe-Truckee Soaring. If the IFR enroute
frequency had failed, I was quite prepared to call on 121.5 to
establish comms initially. I landed at a small strip with a barn/
hangar and house, but no one around and a non-working phone at the
hangar. Had to wait until day operations ended. No one arrived
before the evening tow home.

Frank

[V1]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to this thread. I saw a
lot of useful tips - especially about what frequencies to try, and
practical experience that says this is a feasible option in the
(hopefully rare) cases where the normally planned communication paths
fail.

- Frank

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

Frankly (gri n), I'm not up on this at the moment, but there used to be a
frequency set aside for air-to-air communications. If such still exists
that would be the discret frequency to use. Did that frequency get caught
up in the re-distribution of frequencies years ago?




At 14:10 23 September 2009, V1 wrote:
>Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to this thread. I saw a
>lot of useful tips - especially about what frequencies to try, and
>practical experience that says this is a feasible option in the
>(hopefully rare) cases where the normally planned communication paths
>fail.
>
>- Frank
>

[Mike Bamberg]

On Sep 23, 11:15*am, Nyal Williams > wrote:
> Frankly (gri n), I'm not up on this at the moment, but there used to be a
> frequency set aside for air-to-air communications. *If such still exists
> that would be the discret frequency to use. *Did that frequency get caught
> up in the re-distribution of frequencies years ago?
>
> At 14:10 23 September 2009, V1 wrote:
>
>
>
> >Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply to this thread. I saw a
> >lot of useful tips - especially about what frequencies to try, and
> >practical experience that says this is a feasible option in the
> >(hopefully rare) cases where the normally planned communication paths
> >fail.
>
> >- Frank- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The "standard" air-to-air is 122.75 below 18,000 ft and 123.45 above
18,000 ft.

MIke

[R[_2_]]

Mike Bamberg wrote:
> The "standard" air-to-air is 122.75 below 18,000 ft and 123.45 above
> 18,000 ft.
>
> MIke

Contrary to the rest of ICAO, In the US 123.45 MHZ is not an Air to Air
frequency. 123.45 MHZ is designated for non-governmental flight
testing. However, a special use authorization is allowed as acceptable;
air to air, for aircraft in remote locations to use it to exchange
operational information and facilitate the resolution of operational
problems. No altitudes are specified.

Russ

[Eric Greenwell]

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Sep 22, 9:16 am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>> On Sep 22, 7:09 am, Ed Winchester > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Frank Whiteley wrote:
>>>> On Sep 21, 3:35 pm, bgrly > wrote:
>>>>> On Sep 21, 3:15 pm, Bela > wrote:
>>>>>> On Sep 20, 6:57 pm, CindyB > wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sep 20, 11:46 am, sisu1a > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Does anyone have any real-life experience using this method? Or any
>>>>>>>>> input on how the FAA (in the US) might view this strategy?
>>>>>>>>> - Frank
>>>>>>>> Pre-celly, this used to be common practice, and I suspect commonly
>>>>>>>> I'm not sure on the FAA's take on it,
>>>>>>>> but I imagine that it falls into the realm of legal usage of the freq.
>>>>>>>> The FCC however may feel otherwise if you aren't current on your
>>>>>>>> license to operate a 2 way ;)
>>>>>>>> -Paul
>>>>>>> This is a very valid techinique.
>>>>>>> It is not to be used in place of normal comm procedures,
>>>>>>> or to substitute for poor planning, but I have been party to using it
>>>>>>> in several situations.
>>>>>>> Local pilot wanders off on first Spring X-C, with no ship batteries,
>>>>>>> poor handheld batteries, and more enthusiasm than sense.
>>>>>>> When the day overbuilds and cuts him off from home, he outlands.
>>>>>>> He calls in the blind on the 'approach' frequency, and gets an
>>>>>>> enroute G.A. pilot to switch to the home airport CTAF and relay a
>>>>>>> message. The airplane pilot handled his changes off/on to the
>>>>>>> ATC frequency. Very considerate airplane guy, and happy to involve
>>>>>>> himself. Knowing the enroute local ATC frfequency was about the
>>>>>>> best part of the day's execution by that glider pilot.
>>>>>>> Tonopah Nationals .... big CBs end the day, folks scattered all
>>>>>>> over creation. Contest Air goes up to relay line-of-sight for crews
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> pilots seeking each other. Poor radio quality due to the HEAVY
>>>>>>> rain showers and interior glider cockpit noise on the ground,
>>>>>>> and lightning in many quadrants. Contest Air goes home. One
>>>>>>> crew was enterprising enough to use scan function on their handy-
>>>>>>> talkie and ask the airliner to switch for an 'urgent' relay. The
>>>>>>> airliner
>>>>>>> reached the pilot, now not in heavy rain on the ground, and got
>>>>>>> his position and handed data to crew.
>>>>>>> Remember to WAIT for the relay time and the other party out of
>>>>>>> range to answer to the relaying airborn machine, rather than
>>>>>>> stepping on transmissions. . .
>>>>>>> Region 12 contest at Inyokern, 1999? Beloved silly Fred Ebner had
>>>>>>> not been heard from and it was long after dark. We had launched
>>>>>>> Contest Air for relays, sent Air on course line ( love those AST's
>>>>>>> for finding folks late in the evenings), still never raised the pilot.
>>>>>>> Phoned ATC to ask for the assistance on both possible
>>>>>>> frequencies, and handled listening and thank yous from the
>>>>>>> contest HQ ground. Three airplanes tried to help that
>>>>>>> night. Turns out, Fred was hiking from the wrong side of the
>>>>>>> Owens River, with no hand held, to cross the water and reach the
>>>>>>> highway. He was tired, dry, cranky, and not in the mood to be
>>>>>>> reprimanded for not either 1)staying with the glider, or 2) having
>>>>>>> a ground communication method during the walk or 3) relaying
>>>>>>> out from the glider prior to walking. We were certain to thank
>>>>>>> ATC for their help with a follow up phone call when we found Fred.
>>>>>>> Landouts can be serious for pilot health and safety in the
>>>>>>> 'boonies'. Communications can be important to prevent
>>>>>>> unneccesary search or worries. If the radio work is handled
>>>>>>> fairly professionally, with good cause, no one (FAA/FCC)
>>>>>>> will make a fuss.
>>>>>>> Cindy Bwww.caracolesoaring.com
>>>>>> A few years ago I shared a chair lift with an FAA big-wig and asked
>>>>>> the same.
>>>>>> Response was: a very valid method, provided you make intent clear,
>>>>>> i.e.: asking for relay, not an emergency.
>>>>>> I would also try Aircraft Corp. frequencies first, that are monitored.
>>>>>> Here is a good source:http://ku4ay.net/scanner/airemergency.html
>>>>>> Bela
>>>>> Other than 121.5, a good frequency would be the ATC sector frequency
>>>>> for that area. These are shown on the IFR enroute charts and listed in
>>>>> the DOD IFR supplement and probably in the Airport/Facility Directory.
>>>>> This is what you would find with a scanning hand held radio, as some
>>>>> are quite busy.
>>>>> bgrly
>>>> I carried these when I flew regularly out of Truckee. Got a retrieve
>>>> assist after landing out by calling on an overhead frequency then
>>>> moving to a discrete frequency.
>>> Now there's something I was wondering about. How would you know which
>>> discrete freq to use? Would 123.5 be appropriate, or is there a better one?
>>> Ed
>> Long time ago, IIRC we moved to the Truckee base for the relay.
>>
>> Frank
>
> I'll add that it facilitated communications as I could hear half of
> the conversation as could Tahoe-Truckee Soaring. If the IFR enroute
> frequency had failed, I was quite prepared to call on 121.5 to
> establish comms initially. I landed at a small strip with a barn/
> hangar and house, but no one around and a non-working phone at the
> hangar. Had to wait until day operations ended. No one arrived
> before the evening tow home.
>
> Frank

Is it really useful to drag along the entire thread, now over 150 lines
long? Maybe I have a low pain threshold, but somewhere around 100 lines
of old message and only a two three new lines, I skip to a message
that's much smaller.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org