TRIG TT21 Transponders

[Tim Mara[_2_]]

The new TSO'd TRIG Mode S transponders have been shipped from our US
Distruibutor and will be here by the end of the week...and they do in fact
have the US TSO approval as I mentioned earlier
see http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm for details
thanks
tim

Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I also will have them in stock in a few days. I also will have wiring
harnesses in stock for connecting the transponder unit to the display/user
interface unit.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Tim Mara" > wrote in message
...
> The new TSO'd TRIG Mode S transponders have been shipped from our US
> Distruibutor and will be here by the end of the week...and they do in fact
> have the US TSO approval as I mentioned earlier
> see http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page4.htm for details
> thanks
> tim
>
> Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com
>

[Larry[_5_]]

So I've got a mode-C xponder in my current glider. Since I fly near
Reno airspace, when I get another glider I'll be installing a xponder
if it doesn't already have one.

Question- is there a reason why I would want a mode-S rather than a
mode-C?

Thanks,
Larry

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 22, 8:19*pm, Larry > wrote:
> So I've got a mode-C xponder in my current glider. *Since I fly near
> Reno airspace, when I get another glider I'll be installing a xponder
> if it doesn't already have one.
>
> Question- is there a reason why I would want a mode-S rather than a
> mode-C?
>
> Thanks,
> Larry

Not really, in Europe Mode S is important. In the USA not so. Until
the TT21 my advice would have been to just by the cheaper Mode C like
the Becker 175W.

With Mode S you get a permanent aircraft ID so ATC can always tell who
you are. Some folks might not like that compared to Mode C. The Trig
will allow ADS-B data-out tricks in future but that is about a decade
from needing this. The main thing with the Trig TT21 is that it is
easier to install, smaller, more power efficient and around the same
price as competing Mode C transponders and it is Mode S with "extended
squitter" support aka 1090ES/ADS-B data out for future possible use.
As I've said before the TT21 is a game changer and if it performs as
good in practice as it looks on paper it will do well. I currently fly
with a Becker Mode-C 175W (my second in two gliders I've owned). If I
was buying a new transponder today it would be the TT-21.

Darryl

[Richard[_9_]]

On Sep 22, 9:47*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Sep 22, 8:19*pm, Larry > wrote:
>
> > So I've got a mode-C xponder in my current glider. *Since I fly near
> > Reno airspace, when I get another glider I'll be installing a xponder
> > if it doesn't already have one.
>
> > Question- is there a reason why I would want a mode-S rather than a
> > mode-C?
>
> > Thanks,
> > Larry
>
> Not really, in Europe Mode S is important. In the USA not so. Until
> the TT21 my advice would have been to just by the cheaper Mode C like
> the Becker 175W.
>
> With Mode S you get a permanent aircraft ID so ATC can always tell who
> you are. Some folks might not like that compared to Mode C. The Trig
> will allow ADS-B data-out tricks in future but that is about a decade
> from needing this. *The main thing with the Trig TT21 is that it is
> easier to install, smaller, more power efficient and around the same
> price as competing Mode C transponders and it is Mode S with "extended
> squitter" support aka 1090ES/ADS-B data out for future possible use.
> As I've said before the TT21 is a game changer and if it performs as
> good in practice as it looks on paper it will do well. I currently fly
> with a Becker Mode-C 175W (my second in two gliders I've owned). If I
> was buying a new transponder today it would be the TT-21.
>
> Darryl

Darryl,

I agree that the Trig appears to be a nice transpoder and reasonably
priced.

It does not appear to be any easier to install than a Becker or
Microair or have any better specs that the Microair or Becker in a
Mode C environment.

Trig 11min – 33 max Volts DC. Typical 5 Watts @ 14Volts.
Is the 11v acceptable in a Glider?

Becker 9.5 V to 32.2 V DC
Microair 10v to 33 v .15 to .200 amps
Trig 11 to 33 V .150 to .280 amps (from installation manual)

Low Power Design
The TT21 has one of the lowest power consumptions for any transponder.
With typical power consumption of around 5 watts, it can operate from
battery power for gliders or balloons for long duration flights. In
powered aircraft you can be sure that the TT21 is not making heavy
demands on your electrical system.

5 watts at 12 v = .41 amps
5 watts at 14v = .35 amps

Where did the .280 amps come from? I think all the manufactures play
with specifications.

An issue may be the temperature or the glider cockpit. The Trig
installation manual states The TT21 is certified to operate
correctly down to -20°C, but at low temperatures the display may be
impaired. On a cold day you may need to wait for the cockpit to warm
up to ensure normal operation.

All warranties are F.O.B.
Trig Avionics Limited Heriot Watt Research Park Riccarton, Currie,
EH14 4AP
Trig Avionics will not accept or pay for any charges for warranty work
performed outside our factory without prior written consent.

I perfer not to be a beta tester for a new instrument in the US
airspace environment. TSO only means they have completed the paperwork
requirements. I have experience the early problems with both Becker
and Microair. (They are now both reliable in the US airspace
environment)

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

Richard

On Sep 23, 8:58*am, Richard > wrote:
> On Sep 22, 9:47*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
[snip]
> Darryl,
>
> I agree that the Trig appears to be a nice transpoder and reasonably
> priced.
>
> It does not appear to be any easier to install than a Becker or
> Microair or have any better specs that the Microair or Becker in a
> Mode C environment.

The Trig unit with its two relatively small display/RF units appears
to me to be easier to install in many situations such as with with
tight panel (and behind panel) space and RF cable routing problems
(install the RF box at the antenna). I'm a bit lost as to why you
don't think the Trig has an "easier to install" benefit.


> Trig 11min *– 33 max *Volts DC. Typical 5 Watts @ 14Volts.
> Is the 11v *acceptable in a Glider?

Apparently yes. These are nominal input voltages. With modern switch
mode power supply technology I'm not so worried about the nominal
lower voltage range. This would be something to check with Trig (I'll
send off an email when I get time). I've not seen any problems
reported by the early users of the Trig TT21 and I would have expected
to from the folks I've been in contact with. Anybody out there had low
voltage issues with the TT21?

> Becker 9.5 V to 32.2 V DC
> Microair 10v to 33 v * *.15 to .200 amps
> Trig *11 to 33 V * .150 to .280 amps (from installation manual)
>
> Low Power Design
> The TT21 has one of the lowest power consumptions for any transponder.
> With typical power consumption of around 5 watts, it can operate from
> battery power for gliders or balloons for long duration flights. In
> powered aircraft you can be sure that the TT21 is not making heavy
> demands on your electrical system.
>
> 5 watts at 12 v = *.41 amps
> 5 watts at 14v = .35 amps
>
> Where did the .280 amps come from? *I think all the manufactures play
> with specifications.

The power requirement comes from the Trig product specs in their
brochure and in their installation manual. Trig states the power
consumption of their TT21 is Idle: 0.15 A Active: 0.28 A, both at 14V.
Remember this includes the internal encoder, the encoder power
consumption for other transponders should be included in any
comparison.

You are trying to compare a very rough "about 5 watts" statement from
the same exact product data sheet as the more detailed specs. When
somebody says "about 5 bananas" Do you assume they have exactly 5.0
bananas, between 4 and 6 bananas, between 1 and 10 bananas? You are
trying to reverse out the typical amperage from the "about 5 watts"
and then slamming them that all this stuff "is played with". They
provide detailed current specs, so be fair and use those.

Transponder power specs are complicated because they depend on
interrogation rate (SSR, TCAS and other) and on the encoder power
consumption that can be fairly temperature dependent (is that Encoder
in a drafty location?). My experience with measuring actual Becker
transponder power consumption is that the specs they provide are very
reasonable. I have not measured other transponders in actual use.
Trig do appear to use a fairly modern, low power encoder. I'd love to
get my hands on a TT21 to do actual power consumption tests. But I
have no reason to believe that the Trig would not be as low a power
consumption as they claim. A very nice thing for sailplane use.

> An issue may be the temperature or the glider cockpit. *The Trig
> installation manual states * The TT21 is certified to operate
> correctly down to -20°C, but at low temperatures the display may be
> impaired. On a cold day you may need to wait for the cockpit to warm
> up to ensure normal operation.

This is a compete red herring. The LCD displays used on all competing
products will not operate at low temperatures. This is a fundamental
"feature" of LCD display technology. For example the Becker
transponders also spec a minimum operating temperate of -20C. It is
quite likely the LCD display performance sets this lower limit. Kudos
for Trig for clearly explaining this low temperature limit in their
documentation.

> All warranties are F.O.B.
> Trig Avionics Limited Heriot Watt Research Park Riccarton, Currie,
> EH14 4AP
> Trig Avionics will not accept or pay for any charges for warranty work
> performed outside our factory without prior written consent.

Are you just cut and pasting stuff of the Trig web site or did you
check with their USA distributor?

Southeast Aerospace is the USA distributor. They have publically
stated (see video interview at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAvyjaYzq04)
that during the three year warranty period that warranty repairs are
being handled by field swap of units. With new technolgoy products I
actually think an initial approach of all facory repairs is the right
one. A good warranty period and a distubutor who is stocking spare
units and willing to field swap is a *great* approach. And given what
I think SEAs repair capabilities are it could be that they will do
actual repair in the field in future, I'm not sure. A three year
warranty period is great on new products, I believe both Becker and
Microair transponders have two year warranty period (but the encoder
may have a shorter warranty period - e.g. I believe the ACK A-30 has a
one year warranty, with the Trig TT21 the warranty covers the encoder
as well). Maybe Paul can update his transponder comparison table with
warranty period information.


> I perfer not to be a beta tester for a new instrument in the US
> airspace environment. TSO only means they have completed the paperwork
> requirements. I have experience the early problems with both Becker
> and Microair. (They are now both reliable in the US airspace
> environment)
>
> Richardwww.craggyaero.com


I've also personally had very good experience with Becker USA service
and would highly recommend Becker because of this. Luckily I never had
any early teething problems with Becker products--the repairs I've
needed were for external damage to a transponder. I had enough bed
experiences with early Microair radios that I never want a Microair
anything in my glider ever. But I do hear that their transponders work
well, and I do occasionally use one in a rental glider. I prefer the
Becker UI however. And I see they went through some problems with
them ultimately requiring airworthiness bulletins. And I believe they
did sorted out their radio problems. The teething and support problems
that Microair had on their VHF radios is absolutely the sort of issues
I would be worried about with adopting *any* new products. So Trig and
SEA has to prove they are up to this. Trig have been shipping the TT31
for several years, mostly in Europe so I'd hope any gross vendor
problems would be visible by now. They also have a good distributor
with SEA in the USA. So purchasers need to make their own decisions,
and the best the rest of us can do is watch reports from early
adopters.

I have no interest in any of these products, resellers etc. My
interest is only in encouraging transponder adoption in areas like
around Reno and other areas of mixed commercial/fast Jet and glider
traffic. I did help Paul Remde with information for the transponder
comparison table on his website at
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/transponders.htm#Transponder_Comparison_Table
to try to explain the different transponder capabilities.


Darryl

[Richard[_9_]]

On Sep 23, 11:34*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Richard
>
> On Sep 23, 8:58*am, Richard > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 22, 9:47*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> [snip]
> > Darryl,
>
> > I agree that the Trig appears to be a nice transpoder and reasonably
> > priced.
>
> > It does not appear to be any easier to install than a Becker or
> > Microair or have any better specs that the Microair or Becker in a
> > Mode C environment.
>
> The Trig unit with its two relatively small display/RF units appears
> to me to be easier to install in many situations such as with with
> tight panel (and behind panel) space and RF cable routing problems
> (install the RF box at the antenna). I'm a bit lost as to why you
> don't think the Trig has an "easier to install" benefit.
>
> > Trig 11min *– 33 max *Volts DC. Typical 5 Watts @ 14Volts.
> > Is the 11v *acceptable in a Glider?
>
> Apparently yes. These are nominal input voltages. With modern switch
> mode power supply technology I'm not so worried about the nominal
> lower voltage range. This would be something to check with Trig (I'll
> send off an email when I get time). I've not seen any problems
> reported by the early users of the Trig TT21 and I would have expected
> to from the folks I've been in contact with. Anybody out there had low
> voltage issues with the TT21?
>
>
>
>
>
> > Becker 9.5 V to 32.2 V DC
> > Microair 10v to 33 v * *.15 to .200 amps
> > Trig *11 to 33 V * .150 to .280 amps (from installation manual)
>
> > Low Power Design
> > The TT21 has one of the lowest power consumptions for any transponder.
> > With typical power consumption of around 5 watts, it can operate from
> > battery power for gliders or balloons for long duration flights. In
> > powered aircraft you can be sure that the TT21 is not making heavy
> > demands on your electrical system.
>
> > 5 watts at 12 v = *.41 amps
> > 5 watts at 14v = .35 amps
>
> > Where did the .280 amps come from? *I think all the manufactures play
> > with specifications.
>
> The power requirement comes from the Trig product specs in their
> brochure and in their installation manual. Trig states the power
> consumption of their TT21 is Idle: 0.15 A Active: 0.28 A, both at 14V.
> Remember this includes the internal encoder, the encoder power
> consumption for other transponders should be included in any
> comparison.
>
> You are trying to compare a very rough "about 5 watts" statement from
> the same exact product data sheet as the more detailed specs. When
> somebody says "about 5 bananas" Do you assume they have exactly 5.0
> bananas, between 4 and 6 bananas, between 1 and 10 bananas? You are
> trying to reverse out the typical amperage from the "about 5 watts"
> and then slamming them that all this stuff "is played with". They
> provide detailed current specs, so be fair and use those.
>
> Transponder power specs are complicated because they depend on
> interrogation rate (SSR, TCAS and other) and on the encoder power
> consumption that can be fairly temperature dependent (is that Encoder
> in a drafty location?). My experience with measuring actual Becker
> transponder power consumption is that the specs they provide are very
> reasonable. I have not measured other transponders in actual use.
> Trig do appear to use a fairly modern, low power encoder. I'd love to
> get my hands on a TT21 to do actual power consumption tests. But I
> have no reason to believe that the Trig would not be as low a power
> consumption as they claim. A very nice thing for sailplane use.
>
> > An issue may be the temperature or the glider cockpit. *The Trig
> > installation manual states * The TT21 is certified to operate
> > correctly down to -20°C, but at low temperatures the display may be
> > impaired. On a cold day you may need to wait for the cockpit to warm
> > up to ensure normal operation.
>
> This is a compete red herring. The LCD displays used on all competing
> products will not operate at low temperatures. This is a fundamental
> "feature" of LCD display technology. For example the Becker
> transponders also spec a minimum operating temperate of -20C. It is
> quite likely the LCD display performance sets this lower limit. Kudos
> for Trig for clearly explaining this low temperature limit in their
> documentation.
>
> > All warranties are F.O.B.
> > Trig Avionics Limited Heriot Watt Research Park Riccarton, Currie,
> > EH14 4AP
> > Trig Avionics will not accept or pay for any charges for warranty work
> > performed outside our factory without prior written consent.
>
> Are you just cut and pasting stuff of the Trig web site or did you
> check with their USA distributor?
>
> Southeast Aerospace is the USA distributor. They have publically
> stated (see video interview athttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAvyjaYzq04)
> that during the three year warranty period that warranty repairs are
> being handled by field swap of units. *With new technolgoy products I
> actually think an initial approach of all facory repairs is the right
> one. A good warranty period and a distubutor who is stocking spare
> units and willing to field swap is a *great* approach. And given what
> I think SEAs repair capabilities are it could be that they will do
> actual repair in the field in future, I'm not sure. A three year
> warranty period is great on new products, I believe both Becker and
> Microair transponders have two year warranty period (but the encoder
> may have a shorter warranty period - e.g. I believe the ACK A-30 has a
> one year warranty, with the Trig TT21 the warranty covers the encoder
> as well). Maybe Paul can update his transponder comparison table with
> warranty period information.
>
> > I perfer not to be a beta tester for a new instrument in the US
> > airspace environment. TSO only means they have completed the paperwork
> > requirements. * *I have experience the early problems with both Becker
> > and Microair. *(They are now both reliable in the US airspace
> > environment)
>
> > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> I've also personally had very good experience with Becker USA service
> and would highly recommend Becker because of this. Luckily I never had
> any early teething problems with Becker products--the repairs I've
> needed were for external damage to a transponder. *I had enough bed
> experiences with early Microair radios that I never want a Microair
> anything in my glider ever. But I do hear that their transponders work
> well, and I do occasionally use one in a rental glider. I prefer the
> Becker UI however. *And I see they went through some problems with
> them ultimately requiring airworthiness bulletins. And I believe they
> did sorted out their radio problems. The teething and support problems
> that Microair had on their VHF radios is absolutely the sort of issues
> I would be worried about with adopting *any* new products. So Trig and
> SEA has to prove they are up to this. Trig have been shipping the TT31
> for several years, mostly in Europe so I'd hope any gross vendor
> problems would be visible by now. They also have a good distributor
> with SEA in the USA. So purchasers need to make their own decisions,
> and the best the rest of us can do is watch reports from early
> adopters.
>
> I have no interest in any of these products, resellers etc. My
> interest is only in encouraging transponder adoption in areas like
> around Reno and other areas of mixed commercial/fast Jet and glider
> traffic. I did help Paul Remde with information for the transponder
> comparison table on his website athttp://www.cumulus-soaring.com/transponders.htm#Transponder_Compariso...
> to try to explain the different transponder capabilities.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

darryl

Installation:

Two units, 4 Panel screws, 1 static connection, 1 cable.
I will admit the trig unit is lighter.
I have had no problems with the length of either Microair or Becker
panel units. Becker are longer than the Microair.
The odd shape of the compact version (that all seem to be selling).
IMHO is much harder to cut in either aluminum or fiberglass than a
round hole. Not to mention the weird screw measurements. If you want a
professional installation the hole for the Trig compact version is not
round and you would have thru holes to your panel back with a round
57mm hole. I don't see anything that makes it easier except the
weight.

Input Voltages
Just because you haven't seen any problems doesn't mean there aren't
any. When a manufacturer states a minimul voltage, I would error on
the side of believing the statement.

Spec sheets are generally marketing devices. Mine is better than
yours.

Warranty:
I would not consider YouTube a definitive warranty statement. That is
in the manual you receive with the unit. The warranty appearst to be
pretty standard.

Swapping transponders for transponders with the same issues is not
effective, nor a realistic warranty scheme.
I know that Becker and Microair went through several design changes to
get it correct. They were not immediate and some it appears required
recertification of the units.

Trig also says they have a internal encoder heater circuit. Is this
included in their performance specs for the power draw? Maybe not as
they say typical on their power specs. Cold may not be typical.

My customers have had generally good experiences with both Becker and
Microair transponders especially in the last several years.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

You mention that the odd shape instrument hole on the TT21 may be a pain.
Actually, that is not true. There is only one version of the unit. It
comes with the small face which allows it to fit into tight panels (as found
in many gliders), but adapters are included in the box with the standard
unit that make it easy to install it into a standard round 57 mm instrument
hole.

Warranty - Southeast Aerospace told me that warranty claims will be handled
with replacement units. That sounds very nice to me.

I have sold many Becker transponders and I agree they are great products.
However, the features and price of the TT21 are very attractive. I'm sure
that some pilots will opt for the proven and reliable Becker units and some
will opt for the new TT21. My main hope is that more glider pilots will
find the low price of the TT21 attractive enough that they will finally
invest in their first transponder. Every glider should have one.

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Richard" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 23, 11:34 am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> Richard
>
> On Sep 23, 8:58 am, Richard > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 22, 9:47 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> [snip]
> > Darryl,
>
> > I agree that the Trig appears to be a nice transpoder and reasonably
> > priced.
>
> > It does not appear to be any easier to install than a Becker or
> > Microair or have any better specs that the Microair or Becker in a
> > Mode C environment.
>
> The Trig unit with its two relatively small display/RF units appears
> to me to be easier to install in many situations such as with with
> tight panel (and behind panel) space and RF cable routing problems
> (install the RF box at the antenna). I'm a bit lost as to why you
> don't think the Trig has an "easier to install" benefit.
>
> > Trig 11min – 33 max Volts DC. Typical 5 Watts @ 14Volts.
> > Is the 11v acceptable in a Glider?
>
> Apparently yes. These are nominal input voltages. With modern switch
> mode power supply technology I'm not so worried about the nominal
> lower voltage range. This would be something to check with Trig (I'll
> send off an email when I get time). I've not seen any problems
> reported by the early users of the Trig TT21 and I would have expected
> to from the folks I've been in contact with. Anybody out there had low
> voltage issues with the TT21?
>
>
>
>
>
> > Becker 9.5 V to 32.2 V DC
> > Microair 10v to 33 v .15 to .200 amps
> > Trig 11 to 33 V .150 to .280 amps (from installation manual)
>
> > Low Power Design
> > The TT21 has one of the lowest power consumptions for any transponder.
> > With typical power consumption of around 5 watts, it can operate from
> > battery power for gliders or balloons for long duration flights. In
> > powered aircraft you can be sure that the TT21 is not making heavy
> > demands on your electrical system.
>
> > 5 watts at 12 v = .41 amps
> > 5 watts at 14v = .35 amps
>
> > Where did the .280 amps come from? I think all the manufactures play
> > with specifications.
>
> The power requirement comes from the Trig product specs in their
> brochure and in their installation manual. Trig states the power
> consumption of their TT21 is Idle: 0.15 A Active: 0.28 A, both at 14V.
> Remember this includes the internal encoder, the encoder power
> consumption for other transponders should be included in any
> comparison.
>
> You are trying to compare a very rough "about 5 watts" statement from
> the same exact product data sheet as the more detailed specs. When
> somebody says "about 5 bananas" Do you assume they have exactly 5.0
> bananas, between 4 and 6 bananas, between 1 and 10 bananas? You are
> trying to reverse out the typical amperage from the "about 5 watts"
> and then slamming them that all this stuff "is played with". They
> provide detailed current specs, so be fair and use those.
>
> Transponder power specs are complicated because they depend on
> interrogation rate (SSR, TCAS and other) and on the encoder power
> consumption that can be fairly temperature dependent (is that Encoder
> in a drafty location?). My experience with measuring actual Becker
> transponder power consumption is that the specs they provide are very
> reasonable. I have not measured other transponders in actual use.
> Trig do appear to use a fairly modern, low power encoder. I'd love to
> get my hands on a TT21 to do actual power consumption tests. But I
> have no reason to believe that the Trig would not be as low a power
> consumption as they claim. A very nice thing for sailplane use.
>
> > An issue may be the temperature or the glider cockpit. The Trig
> > installation manual states The TT21 is certified to operate
> > correctly down to -20°C, but at low temperatures the display may be
> > impaired. On a cold day you may need to wait for the cockpit to warm
> > up to ensure normal operation.
>
> This is a compete red herring. The LCD displays used on all competing
> products will not operate at low temperatures. This is a fundamental
> "feature" of LCD display technology. For example the Becker
> transponders also spec a minimum operating temperate of -20C. It is
> quite likely the LCD display performance sets this lower limit. Kudos
> for Trig for clearly explaining this low temperature limit in their
> documentation.
>
> > All warranties are F.O.B.
> > Trig Avionics Limited Heriot Watt Research Park Riccarton, Currie,
> > EH14 4AP
> > Trig Avionics will not accept or pay for any charges for warranty work
> > performed outside our factory without prior written consent.
>
> Are you just cut and pasting stuff of the Trig web site or did you
> check with their USA distributor?
>
> Southeast Aerospace is the USA distributor. They have publically
> stated (see video interview athttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAvyjaYzq04)
> that during the three year warranty period that warranty repairs are
> being handled by field swap of units. With new technolgoy products I
> actually think an initial approach of all facory repairs is the right
> one. A good warranty period and a distubutor who is stocking spare
> units and willing to field swap is a *great* approach. And given what
> I think SEAs repair capabilities are it could be that they will do
> actual repair in the field in future, I'm not sure. A three year
> warranty period is great on new products, I believe both Becker and
> Microair transponders have two year warranty period (but the encoder
> may have a shorter warranty period - e.g. I believe the ACK A-30 has a
> one year warranty, with the Trig TT21 the warranty covers the encoder
> as well). Maybe Paul can update his transponder comparison table with
> warranty period information.
>
> > I perfer not to be a beta tester for a new instrument in the US
> > airspace environment. TSO only means they have completed the paperwork
> > requirements. I have experience the early problems with both Becker
> > and Microair. (They are now both reliable in the US airspace
> > environment)
>
> > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> I've also personally had very good experience with Becker USA service
> and would highly recommend Becker because of this. Luckily I never had
> any early teething problems with Becker products--the repairs I've
> needed were for external damage to a transponder. I had enough bed
> experiences with early Microair radios that I never want a Microair
> anything in my glider ever. But I do hear that their transponders work
> well, and I do occasionally use one in a rental glider. I prefer the
> Becker UI however. And I see they went through some problems with
> them ultimately requiring airworthiness bulletins. And I believe they
> did sorted out their radio problems. The teething and support problems
> that Microair had on their VHF radios is absolutely the sort of issues
> I would be worried about with adopting *any* new products. So Trig and
> SEA has to prove they are up to this. Trig have been shipping the TT31
> for several years, mostly in Europe so I'd hope any gross vendor
> problems would be visible by now. They also have a good distributor
> with SEA in the USA. So purchasers need to make their own decisions,
> and the best the rest of us can do is watch reports from early
> adopters.
>
> I have no interest in any of these products, resellers etc. My
> interest is only in encouraging transponder adoption in areas like
> around Reno and other areas of mixed commercial/fast Jet and glider
> traffic. I did help Paul Remde with information for the transponder
> comparison table on his website
> athttp://www.cumulus-soaring.com/transponders.htm#Transponder_Compariso...
> to try to explain the different transponder capabilities.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

darryl

Installation:

Two units, 4 Panel screws, 1 static connection, 1 cable.
I will admit the trig unit is lighter.
I have had no problems with the length of either Microair or Becker
panel units. Becker are longer than the Microair.
The odd shape of the compact version (that all seem to be selling).
IMHO is much harder to cut in either aluminum or fiberglass than a
round hole. Not to mention the weird screw measurements. If you want a
professional installation the hole for the Trig compact version is not
round and you would have thru holes to your panel back with a round
57mm hole. I don't see anything that makes it easier except the
weight.

Input Voltages
Just because you haven't seen any problems doesn't mean there aren't
any. When a manufacturer states a minimul voltage, I would error on
the side of believing the statement.

Spec sheets are generally marketing devices. Mine is better than
yours.

Warranty:
I would not consider YouTube a definitive warranty statement. That is
in the manual you receive with the unit. The warranty appearst to be
pretty standard.

Swapping transponders for transponders with the same issues is not
effective, nor a realistic warranty scheme.
I know that Becker and Microair went through several design changes to
get it correct. They were not immediate and some it appears required
recertification of the units.

Trig also says they have a internal encoder heater circuit. Is this
included in their performance specs for the power draw? Maybe not as
they say typical on their power specs. Cold may not be typical.

My customers have had generally good experiences with both Becker and
Microair transponders especially in the last several years.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 23, 7:42*pm, Richard > wrote:
[snip]
>
> Two units, *4 Panel screws, 1 static connection, 1 cable.
> I will admit the trig unit is lighter.
> I have had no problems with the length of either Microair or Becker
> panel units. *Becker are longer than the Microair.
> The odd shape of the compact version (that all seem to be selling).
> IMHO is much harder to cut in either aluminum or fiberglass than a
> round hole. Not to mention the weird screw measurements. If you want a
> professional installation the hole for the Trig compact version is not
> round and you would have thru holes to your panel back with a round
> 57mm hole. I don't see anything that makes it easier except the
> weight.
>
> Input Voltages
> Just because you haven't seen any problems doesn't mean there aren't
> any. When a manufacturer states a minimul voltage, I would error on
> the side of believing the statement.
>
> Spec sheets are generally marketing devices. *Mine is better than
> yours.
>
> Warranty:
> I would not consider YouTube a definitive warranty statement. *That is
> in the manual you receive with the unit. *The warranty appearst to be
> pretty standard.
>
> Swapping transponders for transponders with the same issues is not
> effective, nor a realistic warranty scheme.
> I know that Becker and Microair went through several design changes to
> get it correct. *They were not immediate and some it appears required
> recertification of the units.
>
> Trig also says they have a internal encoder heater circuit. *Is this
> included in their performance specs for the power draw? *Maybe not as
> they say typical on their power specs. *Cold may not be typical.
>
> My customers have had generally good experiences with both Becker and
> Microair transponders especially in the last several years.
>
> Richardwww.craggyaero.com

Richard

We get this is new technology. There is risk in that. No argument. And
I expect any early adopters having problems will speak up. So putting
aside it is new and that is a risk you seem determined to keep
bringing up FUD.

So you raise new FUD about mounting holes. The TT21 will install in
standard 57mm mounting holes with the standard screw locations *or* in
the more compact hole with different screw locations. The choice is up
to the installer. That is wonderful flexibility. All this is clearly
explained in the installation manual.

The Trig units are smaller and lighter. The RF unit (144mmx62mmx45mm)
is roughly the sames size as an ACK A-30 encoder (152mmx67mmx33mm),
let alone the entire body of a Becker or similar transponder. Of
course since you don't need the A-30 encoder anymore that also
simplifies the installation. I've seen depth behind the panel be quite
an issue on installations, especially in pedestal mount panels like
the DG-300, etc. where transponders like the Becker will not fit in
the lower factory instrument holes and still clear the sides of the
pedestal. Even if there is space being able to remote mount the RF
unit is goodness. Routing the RF cable up though the the factory
installed shrinkwrap hell in the plenum behind the panel in many
Schliecher gliders is a pain. And if done poorly can lead to connector
or cable failure from the flexing when the panel is raised and
lowered. Remote mounting the RF box in these gliders completely
eliminates any RF cable flex issues. If all the gliders you work on
have no panel space or space behind the panel issues or problems
feeding RF cables then you are very lucky. Congratulations. For the
rest of us the news that transponders are getting more compact and
flexible in their installation is all goodness.

Again you seem to be speculating the power specs that Trig provide
must be inaccurate or don't include important components like the
encoder heater. I have no idea why you believe this. I would expect
they include the typical total load including any encoder effects. If
somebody wants to send me a TT21 I'll be happy to throw it in my
freezer and measure its encoder power performance vs. temperature.

Those folks selling the TT21 might be able to clarify the USA warranty
situation.

Darryl

[Richard[_9_]]

On Sep 23, 8:48*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
> On Sep 23, 7:42*pm, Richard > wrote:
> [snip]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Two units, *4 Panel screws, 1 static connection, 1 cable.
> > I will admit the trig unit is lighter.
> > I have had no problems with the length of either Microair or Becker
> > panel units. *Becker are longer than the Microair.
> > The odd shape of the compact version (that all seem to be selling).
> > IMHO is much harder to cut in either aluminum or fiberglass than a
> > round hole. Not to mention the weird screw measurements. If you want a
> > professional installation the hole for the Trig compact version is not
> > round and you would have thru holes to your panel back with a round
> > 57mm hole. I don't see anything that makes it easier except the
> > weight.
>
> > Input Voltages
> > Just because you haven't seen any problems doesn't mean there aren't
> > any. When a manufacturer states a minimul voltage, I would error on
> > the side of believing the statement.
>
> > Spec sheets are generally marketing devices. *Mine is better than
> > yours.
>
> > Warranty:
> > I would not consider YouTube a definitive warranty statement. *That is
> > in the manual you receive with the unit. *The warranty appearst to be
> > pretty standard.
>
> > Swapping transponders for transponders with the same issues is not
> > effective, nor a realistic warranty scheme.
> > I know that Becker and Microair went through several design changes to
> > get it correct. *They were not immediate and some it appears required
> > recertification of the units.
>
> > Trig also says they have a internal encoder heater circuit. *Is this
> > included in their performance specs for the power draw? *Maybe not as
> > they say typical on their power specs. *Cold may not be typical.
>
> > My customers have had generally good experiences with both Becker and
> > Microair transponders especially in the last several years.
>
> > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> Richard
>
> We get this is new technology. There is risk in that. No argument. And
> I expect any early adopters having problems will speak up. So putting
> aside it is new and that is a risk you seem determined to keep
> bringing up FUD.
>
> So you raise new FUD about mounting holes. The TT21 will install in
> standard 57mm mounting holes with the standard screw locations *or* in
> the more compact hole with different screw locations. The choice is up
> to the installer. That is wonderful flexibility. All this is clearly
> explained in the installation manual.
>
> The Trig units are smaller and lighter. The RF unit (144mmx62mmx45mm)
> is roughly the sames size as an ACK A-30 encoder (152mmx67mmx33mm),
> let alone the entire body of a Becker or similar transponder. Of
> course since you don't need the A-30 encoder anymore that also
> simplifies the installation. I've seen depth behind the panel be quite
> an issue on installations, especially in pedestal mount panels like
> the DG-300, etc. where transponders like the Becker will not fit in
> the lower factory instrument holes and still clear the sides of the
> pedestal. Even if there is space being able to remote mount the RF
> unit is goodness. Routing the RF cable up though the the factory
> installed shrinkwrap hell in the plenum behind the panel in many
> Schliecher gliders is a pain. And if done poorly can lead to connector
> or cable failure from the flexing when the panel is raised and
> lowered. Remote mounting the RF box in these gliders completely
> eliminates any RF cable flex issues. If all the gliders you work on
> have no panel space or space behind the panel issues or problems
> feeding RF cables then you are very lucky. Congratulations. For the
> rest of us the news that transponders are getting more compact and
> flexible in their installation is all goodness.
>
> Again you seem to be speculating the power specs that Trig provide
> must be inaccurate or don't include important components like the
> encoder heater. I have no idea why you believe this. I would expect
> they include the typical total load including any encoder effects. If
> somebody wants to send me a TT21 I'll be happy to throw it in my
> freezer and measure its encoder power performance vs. temperature.
>
> Those folks selling the TT21 might be able to clarify the USA warranty
> situation.
>
> Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Darryl

As with most things if it sounds too good to be true it usually is.

New Company
First new product
Price 40% lower than competition
Better Specifications than competition

If it all works out, I agree with an eariler post "this is a game
changer"

I will sell the TRIG and add to my website by at least Tuesday 2012.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 24, 6:56*am, Richard > wrote:
> On Sep 23, 8:48*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 23, 7:42*pm, Richard > wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> > > Two units, *4 Panel screws, 1 static connection, 1 cable.
> > > I will admit the trig unit is lighter.
> > > I have had no problems with the length of either Microair or Becker
> > > panel units. *Becker are longer than the Microair.
> > > The odd shape of the compact version (that all seem to be selling).
> > > IMHO is much harder to cut in either aluminum or fiberglass than a
> > > round hole. Not to mention the weird screw measurements. If you want a
> > > professional installation the hole for the Trig compact version is not
> > > round and you would have thru holes to your panel back with a round
> > > 57mm hole. I don't see anything that makes it easier except the
> > > weight.
>
> > > Input Voltages
> > > Just because you haven't seen any problems doesn't mean there aren't
> > > any. When a manufacturer states a minimul voltage, I would error on
> > > the side of believing the statement.
>
> > > Spec sheets are generally marketing devices. *Mine is better than
> > > yours.
>
> > > Warranty:
> > > I would not consider YouTube a definitive warranty statement. *That is
> > > in the manual you receive with the unit. *The warranty appearst to be
> > > pretty standard.
>
> > > Swapping transponders for transponders with the same issues is not
> > > effective, nor a realistic warranty scheme.
> > > I know that Becker and Microair went through several design changes to
> > > get it correct. *They were not immediate and some it appears required
> > > recertification of the units.
>
> > > Trig also says they have a internal encoder heater circuit. *Is this
> > > included in their performance specs for the power draw? *Maybe not as
> > > they say typical on their power specs. *Cold may not be typical.
>
> > > My customers have had generally good experiences with both Becker and
> > > Microair transponders especially in the last several years.
>
> > > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> > Richard
>
> > We get this is new technology. There is risk in that. No argument. And
> > I expect any early adopters having problems will speak up. So putting
> > aside it is new and that is a risk you seem determined to keep
> > bringing up FUD.
>
> > So you raise new FUD about mounting holes. The TT21 will install in
> > standard 57mm mounting holes with the standard screw locations *or* in
> > the more compact hole with different screw locations. The choice is up
> > to the installer. That is wonderful flexibility. All this is clearly
> > explained in the installation manual.
>
> > The Trig units are smaller and lighter. The RF unit (144mmx62mmx45mm)
> > is roughly the sames size as an ACK A-30 encoder (152mmx67mmx33mm),
> > let alone the entire body of a Becker or similar transponder. Of
> > course since you don't need the A-30 encoder anymore that also
> > simplifies the installation. I've seen depth behind the panel be quite
> > an issue on installations, especially in pedestal mount panels like
> > the DG-300, etc. where transponders like the Becker will not fit in
> > the lower factory instrument holes and still clear the sides of the
> > pedestal. Even if there is space being able to remote mount the RF
> > unit is goodness. Routing the RF cable up though the the factory
> > installed shrinkwrap hell in the plenum behind the panel in many
> > Schliecher gliders is a pain. And if done poorly can lead to connector
> > or cable failure from the flexing when the panel is raised and
> > lowered. Remote mounting the RF box in these gliders completely
> > eliminates any RF cable flex issues. If all the gliders you work on
> > have no panel space or space behind the panel issues or problems
> > feeding RF cables then you are very lucky. Congratulations. For the
> > rest of us the news that transponders are getting more compact and
> > flexible in their installation is all goodness.
>
> > Again you seem to be speculating the power specs that Trig provide
> > must be inaccurate or don't include important components like the
> > encoder heater. I have no idea why you believe this. I would expect
> > they include the typical total load including any encoder effects. If
> > somebody wants to send me a TT21 I'll be happy to throw it in my
> > freezer and measure its encoder power performance vs. temperature.
>
> > Those folks selling the TT21 might be able to clarify the USA warranty
> > situation.
>
> > Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Darryl
>
> As with most things if it sounds too good to be true it usually is.
>
> New Company
> First new product
> Price 40% lower than competition
> Better Specifications than competition
>
> If it all works out, I agree with an eariler post "this is a game
> changer"
>
> I will *sell the TRIG and add to my website by at least Tuesday *2012..
>
> Richardwww.craggyaero.com

Richard.

Actually, this is their second product, they have been selling the
TT31 transponder in Europe for several years.

Darryl

[Tim Mara[_2_]]

Becker transponders have proven themselves to be quite reliable, latest and
newest version Microair transponders have been excellent and even the very
early ones though that had some issues pretty well taken care of by the
manufacturer are apparently working well, TRIG appears to already have been
quite well tested since they ahve produced and sold previous versions they
produced already for a number of years and have established a pretty good
reputation as well...all appears to be suitable for a wide range of
applications and really the choice of options, features, prices brand
loyalty all should and I'm sure will play into anyone's decision on which
one they would most like to purchase...for this reason and others I offer
all three of these types and if other types are announced that have the same
promise I likely will make these available as well.
Tim Mara
Wings & Wheels
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Darryl Ramm" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 24, 6:56 am, Richard > wrote:
> On Sep 23, 8:48 pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 23, 7:42 pm, Richard > wrote:
> > [snip]
>
> > > Two units, 4 Panel screws, 1 static connection, 1 cable.
> > > I will admit the trig unit is lighter.
> > > I have had no problems with the length of either Microair or Becker
> > > panel units. Becker are longer than the Microair.
> > > The odd shape of the compact version (that all seem to be selling).
> > > IMHO is much harder to cut in either aluminum or fiberglass than a
> > > round hole. Not to mention the weird screw measurements. If you want a
> > > professional installation the hole for the Trig compact version is not
> > > round and you would have thru holes to your panel back with a round
> > > 57mm hole. I don't see anything that makes it easier except the
> > > weight.
>
> > > Input Voltages
> > > Just because you haven't seen any problems doesn't mean there aren't
> > > any. When a manufacturer states a minimul voltage, I would error on
> > > the side of believing the statement.
>
> > > Spec sheets are generally marketing devices. Mine is better than
> > > yours.
>
> > > Warranty:
> > > I would not consider YouTube a definitive warranty statement. That is
> > > in the manual you receive with the unit. The warranty appearst to be
> > > pretty standard.
>
> > > Swapping transponders for transponders with the same issues is not
> > > effective, nor a realistic warranty scheme.
> > > I know that Becker and Microair went through several design changes to
> > > get it correct. They were not immediate and some it appears required
> > > recertification of the units.
>
> > > Trig also says they have a internal encoder heater circuit. Is this
> > > included in their performance specs for the power draw? Maybe not as
> > > they say typical on their power specs. Cold may not be typical.
>
> > > My customers have had generally good experiences with both Becker and
> > > Microair transponders especially in the last several years.
>
> > > Richardwww.craggyaero.com
>
> > Richard
>
> > We get this is new technology. There is risk in that. No argument. And
> > I expect any early adopters having problems will speak up. So putting
> > aside it is new and that is a risk you seem determined to keep
> > bringing up FUD.
>
> > So you raise new FUD about mounting holes. The TT21 will install in
> > standard 57mm mounting holes with the standard screw locations *or* in
> > the more compact hole with different screw locations. The choice is up
> > to the installer. That is wonderful flexibility. All this is clearly
> > explained in the installation manual.
>
> > The Trig units are smaller and lighter. The RF unit (144mmx62mmx45mm)
> > is roughly the sames size as an ACK A-30 encoder (152mmx67mmx33mm),
> > let alone the entire body of a Becker or similar transponder. Of
> > course since you don't need the A-30 encoder anymore that also
> > simplifies the installation. I've seen depth behind the panel be quite
> > an issue on installations, especially in pedestal mount panels like
> > the DG-300, etc. where transponders like the Becker will not fit in
> > the lower factory instrument holes and still clear the sides of the
> > pedestal. Even if there is space being able to remote mount the RF
> > unit is goodness. Routing the RF cable up though the the factory
> > installed shrinkwrap hell in the plenum behind the panel in many
> > Schliecher gliders is a pain. And if done poorly can lead to connector
> > or cable failure from the flexing when the panel is raised and
> > lowered. Remote mounting the RF box in these gliders completely
> > eliminates any RF cable flex issues. If all the gliders you work on
> > have no panel space or space behind the panel issues or problems
> > feeding RF cables then you are very lucky. Congratulations. For the
> > rest of us the news that transponders are getting more compact and
> > flexible in their installation is all goodness.
>
> > Again you seem to be speculating the power specs that Trig provide
> > must be inaccurate or don't include important components like the
> > encoder heater. I have no idea why you believe this. I would expect
> > they include the typical total load including any encoder effects. If
> > somebody wants to send me a TT21 I'll be happy to throw it in my
> > freezer and measure its encoder power performance vs. temperature.
>
> > Those folks selling the TT21 might be able to clarify the USA warranty
> > situation.
>
> > Darryl- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Darryl
>
> As with most things if it sounds too good to be true it usually is.
>
> New Company
> First new product
> Price 40% lower than competition
> Better Specifications than competition
>
> If it all works out, I agree with an eariler post "this is a game
> changer"
>
> I will sell the TRIG and add to my website by at least Tuesday 2012.
>
> Richardwww.craggyaero.com

Richard.

Actually, this is their second product, they have been selling the
TT31 transponder in Europe for several years.

Darryl

[Darryl Ramm]

On Sep 23, 7:42*pm, Richard > wrote:
> On Sep 23, 11:34*am, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
[snip]
> > On Sep 23, 8:58*am, Richard > wrote:
> > > On Sep 22, 9:47*pm, Darryl Ramm > wrote:
[snip]
> > > All warranties are F.O.B.
> > > Trig Avionics Limited Heriot Watt Research Park Riccarton, Currie,
> > > EH14 4AP
> > > Trig Avionics will not accept or pay for any charges for warranty work
> > > performed outside our factory without prior written consent.
>
> > Are you just cut and pasting stuff of the Trig web site or did you
> > check with their USA distributor?
>
> > Southeast Aerospace is the USA distributor. They have publically
> > stated (see video interview athttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAvyjaYzq04)
> > that during the three year warranty period that warranty repairs are
> > being handled by field swap of units. *With new technolgoy products I
> > actually think an initial approach of all facory repairs is the right
> > one. A good warranty period and a distubutor who is stocking spare
> > units and willing to field swap is a *great* approach. And given what
> > I think SEAs repair capabilities are it could be that they will do
> > actual repair in the field in future, I'm not sure. A three year
> > warranty period is great on new products, I believe both Becker and
> > Microair transponders have two year warranty period (but the encoder
> > may have a shorter warranty period - e.g. I believe the ACK A-30 has a
> > one year warranty, with the Trig TT21 the warranty covers the encoder
> > as well). Maybe Paul can update his transponder comparison table with
> > warranty period information.
[snip]
> Warranty:
> I would not consider YouTube a definitive warranty statement. *That is
> in the manual you receive with the unit. *The warranty appearst to be
> pretty standard.
>
> Swapping transponders for transponders with the same issues is not
> effective, nor a realistic warranty scheme.
> I know that Becker and Microair went through several design changes to
> get it correct. *They were not immediate and some it appears required
> recertification of the units.
[snip]

We'll we've probably flogged this to death already but I wanted to
make sure I had the facts on Trig warranty in the USA so I contacted
Southeast Aerospace the USA distributor of Trig and got a quick reply
from Joe Braddock, their VP Sales & Marketing. Joe is the person in
the video interview on YouTube I linked to earlier. Below is his reply
to my warranty questions. Including a correction that the warranty is
indeed two years not three. But in addition to the swap policy it also
looks like SEA will be doing repair of Trig products themselves in
future. Anyhow to the original concern that Richard raised, warranty
in the USA is _definitely not_ FOB the factory in Scotland. SEA is
updating their warranty documents and Joe is also going to send me the
written SEA/Trig warranty that covers the USA next week.

So from Joe Braddock (quoted with permission)...

[BEGIN QUOTE]

Regarding the warranty, I must apologize for the information in the
Aero TV interview as the warranty is 2 years not 3 years. No excuses
but we represent many different manufacturers whose warranty periods
vary from 1-3 years. In the heat of the moment (interview), I simply
gave the wrong information. Once again, my apologies for the
confusion.

In relation to other warranty matters, we have been given a supply of
warranty replacement units from Trig for any such situations. In
addition, our shop will be set up to perform warranty repairs within
the next 6 months. Therefore, the potential warranty situations
should be seamless with a quick and painless resolution. However, I
can inform you that we have been selling the panel mount TT31
transponder for approximately 6 months (approx 50+ units) and not had
one warranty claim or return yet.

I believe that the TT21 will be a great fit for the sailplane market
for many reasons. The FAA TSO approval should provide some additional
confidence for those considering it as well.

[END QUOTE]

Oh and Eric Greenwell will have info to share soon from the Trig
factory on the TT21 minimal operating voltages, and the summary there
is g^hr^he^ha^t^h ... (oooh you'll just have to wait for Eric :-))

Darryl