ILS approach to near minimums - Video

[[email protected]]

First time for me going down to near ILS minimums by myself. Video
includes how I brief my IFR approaches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCk_RRMemnM

Video I think does a good job on demonstrating why the runway may not
be always exactly in front of you after wind correction angle
considerations and ONLY being 1/2 dot off the localizer.

I flew for 2.5 hours waiting for ceilings to climb above 500 AGL. My
next video will contain the VOR alpha back into Madison executed at
minimums. ATC and I had an on air "bet" going on whether I'd make it
in. To my surprise, I would have lost that bet.

[a[_3_]]

On Sep 26, 11:10*am, " > wrote:
> First time for me going down to near ILS minimums by myself. Video
> includes how I brief my IFR approaches.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCk_RRMemnM
>
> Video I think does a good job on demonstrating why the runway may not
> be always exactly in front of you after wind correction angle
> considerations and ONLY being 1/2 dot off the localizer.
>
> I flew for 2.5 hours waiting for ceilings to climb above 500 AGL. *My
> next video will contain the VOR alpha back into Madison executed at
> minimums. ATC and I had an on air "bet" going on whether I'd make it
> in. *To my surprise, I would have lost that bet.

I noticed when you broke out at 500 feet agl you aligned the axis of
the airplane with the runway then tended to drift a little left, and
coordinated turned yourself onto the center line again. Absolutely
nothing wrong with that, but my habit is a little different. I
continue to fly the localizer at whatever crab angle I need to keep
the needle centered and when much lower drop the windward wing, kick
the airplane into alignment and transition to a cross wind landing.
It would be interesting for the thread to address the advantanges and
disadvantages of each method.

[BeechSundowner]

On Sep 26, 8:46*pm, a > wrote:
> On Sep 26, 11:10*am, " > wrote:

> I noticed when you broke out at 500 feet agl you aligned the axis of
> the airplane with the runway then tended to drift a little left, and
> coordinated turned yourself onto the center line again. Absolutely
> nothing wrong with that, but my habit is a little different. I
> continue to fly the localizer at whatever crab angle I need *to keep
> the needle centered and when much lower *drop the windward wing, kick
> the airplane into alignment *and transition to a cross wind landing.
> It would be interesting for the thread to address the advantanges and
> disadvantages of each method.

A,

While IMC, I do exactly what you say, fly the crab all the way down.
Problem and why you see me drift left when I break out was I was 1/2
dot off fthe localizer to the right, so in order to find the
centerline, it required a slight turn to the left when I broke out 512
MSL or 200 AGL.

You can see my "reintercept" of the centerline from 7:20 to to 7:30 by
watching the point of the cowling in relationship to the runway
centerline. During this 10 seconds, I was correcting the right of the
localizer problem.

Couple of thoughts, as I did not even realize until breaking out that
I had that much of a crab as I was so focused on maintaining the
localizer. . It took several adjustments of the header bug on descent
to find that sweet spot in tracking. When I broke out, needless to
say I was surprised at my crab angle (like, oh crap, where's the
runway!), and thus the sharp "response on the yoke" My subsequent
approaches were not that abrupt on the yoke as I was better prepared.

This was a quartering "downwind landing" 34L was closed so only 16L
was available.

It's fun to Monday QB my videos and I sincerely appreciate this kind
of feedback!

[a[_3_]]

On Sep 26, 10:42*pm, BeechSundowner > wrote:
> On Sep 26, 8:46*pm, a > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 26, 11:10*am, " > wrote:
> > I noticed when you broke out at 500 feet agl you aligned the axis of
> > the airplane with the runway then tended to drift a little left, and
> > coordinated turned yourself onto the center line again. Absolutely
> > nothing wrong with that, but my habit is a little different. I
> > continue to fly the localizer at whatever crab angle I need *to keep
> > the needle centered and when much lower *drop the windward wing, kick
> > the airplane into alignment *and transition to a cross wind landing.
> > It would be interesting for the thread to address the advantanges and
> > disadvantages of each method.
>
> A,
>
> While IMC, I do exactly what you say, fly the crab all the way down.
> Problem and why you see me drift left when I break out was I was 1/2
> dot off fthe localizer to the right, so in order to find the
> centerline, it required a slight turn to the left when I broke out 512
> MSL or *200 AGL.
>
> You can see my "reintercept" of the centerline from 7:20 to to 7:30 by
> watching the point of the cowling in relationship to the runway
> centerline. *During this 10 seconds, I was correcting the right of the
> localizer problem.
>
> Couple of thoughts, as I did not even realize until breaking out that
> I had that much of a crab as I was so focused on maintaining the
> localizer. . *It took several adjustments of the header bug on descent
> to find that sweet spot in tracking. *When I broke out, needless to
> say I was surprised at my crab angle (like, oh crap, where's the
> runway!), and thus the sharp "response on the yoke" *My subsequent
> approaches were not that abrupt on the yoke as I was better prepared.
>
> This was a quartering "downwind landing" *34L was closed so only 16L
> was available.
>
> It's fun to Monday QB my videos and I sincerely appreciate this kind
> of feedback!

It's not intended as Monday morning quarterbacking. I noticed you did
something different than the way I do, and asked about it. It's
rather fun when sliding down the glideslope to look at the dg and
compare it to the expected heading. I've seen 20 degrees difference at
the OM change to 10 degrees at minimums -- you can tell the pax where
to look for the runway environment if you're lucky enough to have an
extra pair of eyes in the cockpit. I coach the person in the right
hand seat to say 'runway lights in sight'.

This is also worth trying, especially in a low wing airplane where
ground effect is more obvious. When you have a safety pilot aboard, if
there is not much wind stay under the hood until you feel ground
effect. What we do is fly glide slope to the MM, then just the
localizer and start backng off the throttle a bit. It's a confidence
builder to know you can fly to touchdown that way. You'll likely
bounce -- I do at least -- but I know in the worst conditons (think
snow sqaull at your alternate) if I have no choice I can get on the
ground more or less safely. Keeping the localizer centered down low
is 'entertaining'..

[D Ramapriya]

On Sep 26, 7:10*pm, " > wrote:
> First time for me going down to near ILS minimums by myself. Video
> includes how I brief my IFR approaches.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCk_RRMemnM


Jeez, in most videos I've seen of yours, the stall horn has sounded
just before touchdown. I bet you like hairy landings :)

Very good video (and audio) quality, btw. Thanks!

Ramapriya

[BeechSundowner]

On Sep 27, 12:26*pm, D Ramapriya > wrote:

> Jeez, in most videos I've seen of yours, the stall horn has sounded
> just before touchdown. I bet you like hairy landings :)
>
> Very good video (and audio) quality, btw. Thanks!
>
> Ramapriya

Thanks for the compliment Ramapriva,

I was just happy to hit the center line LOL. Stall horn did go off at
7:59, but I just didn't drag it like I usually do since I had the
Southwest flight behind me barreling down the glide slope.

[D Ramapriya]

On Sep 28, 8:36*am, Clark > wrote:
> D Ramapriya > wrote in news:2f5fa47a-a9a0-4d76-897e-
> :
>
> > Jeez, in most videos I've seen of yours, the stall horn has sounded
> > just before touchdown. I bet you like hairy landings :)
>
> Just an educational point: a perfect landing includes a full stall about a
> foot off the ground. Typically the stall horn will sound about 5 to 10 knots
> above the actual stall. Alan's landings appear to be quite good.
>
> In other words, there is no harm in stalling within a few inches of the
> runway. On the other hand, there can be great harm in attempting to land way
> to fast.


Thanks, mate. Won't this lead to dodgy finals in a situation where the
headwind tails off for some reason (a gust or some such)?

Ramapriya

[Panic]

That crab "correction" was the hardest thing to get used to when I flew the
B-52H back in the early 60s. We had a little chart near the rudder control
knob to enter the angle and velocity of the crosswind, then we pulled up on
the knob and cranked it to the chart value to hydraulically move the main
gear so that it would be aligned with the runway even though we landed still
in a crab. We could crank up to 20° of alignment correction.

All of my previous years, once we finally saw the runway at very low
altitude we'd kick out the crab and use wing low cross control for landing.
GCA minimums were 100' ceiling. You had to psyche yourself ahead of time to
insure that when you finally spotted the runway you'd leave the crab in and
land that way. (but...make sure you entered the crab correction in the
right direction)


"BeechSundowner" > wrote in message
...
On Sep 26, 8:46 pm, a > wrote:
> On Sep 26, 11:10 am, " > wrote:

> I noticed when you broke out at 500 feet agl you aligned the axis of
> the airplane with the runway then tended to drift a little left, and
> coordinated turned yourself onto the center line again. Absolutely
> nothing wrong with that, but my habit is a little different. I
> continue to fly the localizer at whatever crab angle I need to keep
> the needle centered and when much lower drop the windward wing, kick
> the airplane into alignment and transition to a cross wind landing.
> It would be interesting for the thread to address the advantanges and
> disadvantages of each method.

A,

While IMC, I do exactly what you say, fly the crab all the way down.
Problem and why you see me drift left when I break out was I was 1/2
dot off fthe localizer to the right, so in order to find the
centerline, it required a slight turn to the left when I broke out 512
MSL or 200 AGL.

You can see my "reintercept" of the centerline from 7:20 to to 7:30 by
watching the point of the cowling in relationship to the runway
centerline. During this 10 seconds, I was correcting the right of the
localizer problem.

Couple of thoughts, as I did not even realize until breaking out that
I had that much of a crab as I was so focused on maintaining the
localizer. . It took several adjustments of the header bug on descent
to find that sweet spot in tracking. When I broke out, needless to
say I was surprised at my crab angle (like, oh crap, where's the
runway!), and thus the sharp "response on the yoke" My subsequent
approaches were not that abrupt on the yoke as I was better prepared.

This was a quartering "downwind landing" 34L was closed so only 16L
was available.

It's fun to Monday QB my videos and I sincerely appreciate this kind
of feedback!

[a[_3_]]

On Sep 28, 1:36*am, D Ramapriya > wrote:
> On Sep 28, 8:36*am, Clark > wrote:
>
> > D Ramapriya > wrote in news:2f5fa47a-a9a0-4d76-897e-
> > :
>
> > > Jeez, in most videos I've seen of yours, the stall horn has sounded
> > > just before touchdown. I bet you like hairy landings :)
>
> > Just an educational point: a perfect landing includes a full stall about a
> > foot off the ground. Typically the stall horn will sound about 5 to 10 knots
> > above the actual stall. Alan's landings appear to be quite good.
>
> > In other words, there is no harm in stalling within a few inches of the
> > runway. On the other hand, there can be great harm in attempting to land way
> > to fast.
>
> Thanks, mate. Won't this lead to dodgy finals in a situation where the
> headwind tails off for some reason (a gust or some such)?
>
> Ramapriya
In most of our SELs the stall warning sounds 5 or 8 knots before the
stall. That's a nice margin. The only time I am not going to want the
stall to sound is if there's a big cross wind and I am running out of
rudder authority at low air speeds. Too much airspeed in the flair is,
in this pilot's opinion, the sign of an airplane driver who has not
been trained well. Ditto, for that matter, for the guy who touches
down in a SEL 2000 feet from his turn off, then finds himself driving
the airplane on the ground for an extra 1000 plus feet. A good landing
in my view is where there's a stall warning, throttle aft, touchdown,
and make the turn off without using throttle or break.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"a" > wrote

> A good landing
> in my view is where there's a stall warning, throttle aft, touchdown,
> and make the turn off without using throttle or break.

Or without using the brakes, in case nothing is broken. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[a[_3_]]

On Sep 28, 6:44*pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "a" > wrote
>
> > A good landing
> > in my view is where there's a stall warning, throttle aft, touchdown,
> > and make the turn off without using throttle or break.
>
> Or without using the brakes, in case nothing is broken. ;-)
> --
> Jim in NC

Nice catch! But it is good not to break anything and if you brake too
hard you may. It IS Monday, I think it's going to be a bad weak.

[D Ramapriya]

On Sep 28, 10:00*am, Clark > wrote:
> D Ramapriya > wrote in news:e238c979-3550-4a59-87f1-
> :
>
>
>
> > On Sep 28, 8:36*am, Clark > wrote:
> >> D Ramapriya > wrote in news:2f5fa47a-a9a0-4d76-897e
> > -
> >> :
>
> >> > Jeez, in most videos I've seen of yours, the stall horn has sounded
> >> > just before touchdown. I bet you like hairy landings :)
>
> >> Just an educational point: a perfect landing includes a full stall about
> > a
> >> foot off the ground. Typically the stall horn will sound about 5 to 10 kn
> > ots
> >> above the actual stall. Alan's landings appear to be quite good.
>
> >> In other words, there is no harm in stalling within a few inches of the
> >> runway. On the other hand, there can be great harm in attempting to land
> > way
> >> to fast.
>
> > Thanks, mate. Won't this lead to dodgy finals in a situation where the
> > headwind tails off for some reason (a gust or some such)?
>
> Final is typically flown at 1.3*Vso which translated means 30% above stall
> speed. The extra velocity is lost in the roundout at the bottom of the
> approach. If the winds are gusty then 1/2 the gust factor is added to the
> approach speed. The gust factor is the difference between the base wind
> velocity and the maximum gust velocity.
>
> Folks have been doing this for a long time and the numbers work really well.


Correct me if I'm wrong but there may also be the possibility that in
aircraft where the computer doesn't correlate data from the AOA
sensor, you'll probably get a slightly slower airspeed indication than
actual during the flare, in which case even the stall horn would be a
kind of false alarm ;)

Ramapriya

[Morgans[_2_]]

"D Ramapriya" > wrote in message
...
> On Sep 28, 10:00 am, Clark > wrote:
>> D Ramapriya > wrote in
>> news:e238c979-3550-4a59-87f1-
>> :
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 28, 8:36 am, Clark > wrote:
>> >> D Ramapriya > wrote in
>> >> news:2f5fa47a-a9a0-4d76-897e
>> > -
>> >> :
>>
>> >> > Jeez, in most videos I've seen of yours, the stall horn has sounded
>> >> > just before touchdown. I bet you like hairy landings :)
>>
>> >> Just an educational point: a perfect landing includes a full stall
>> >> about
>> > a
>> >> foot off the ground. Typically the stall horn will sound about 5 to 10
>> >> kn
>> > ots
>> >> above the actual stall. Alan's landings appear to be quite good.
>>
>> >> In other words, there is no harm in stalling within a few inches of
>> >> the
>> >> runway. On the other hand, there can be great harm in attempting to
>> >> land
>> > way
>> >> to fast.
>>
>> > Thanks, mate. Won't this lead to dodgy finals in a situation where the
>> > headwind tails off for some reason (a gust or some such)?
>>
>> Final is typically flown at 1.3*Vso which translated means 30% above
>> stall
>> speed. The extra velocity is lost in the roundout at the bottom of the
>> approach. If the winds are gusty then 1/2 the gust factor is added to the
>> approach speed. The gust factor is the difference between the base wind
>> velocity and the maximum gust velocity.
>>
>> Folks have been doing this for a long time and the numbers work really
>> well.
>
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong but there may also be the possibility that in
> aircraft where the computer doesn't correlate data from the AOA
> sensor, you'll probably get a slightly slower airspeed indication than
> actual during the flare, in which case even the stall horn would be a
> kind of false alarm ;)
>
> Ramapriya

Small aircraft do not use any computers to actuate the stall horn. Instead,
there are ports on the leading edge of the wing in a precise location so
that the air moves from one to the other at stall only, which blows a reed
horn, or some have a little flap that blows over at the leading edge that
turns on a switch to sound an electric horn. In either case, it is
aerodynamic airflow that triggers the stall horn.
--
Jim in NC

[D Ramapriya]

On Sep 30, 3:13*am, Clark > wrote:
> D Ramapriya > wrote in news:2c0fab6a-a8d4-4889-a0ef-
> :
>
> As for the accuracy of the airspeed indicator, well we generally stall the
> aircraft in training and proficiency flights so we know exactly when the
> stall occurs even if the indicated airspeed might be in error. As an aside,
> the aircraft will usually tell you through handling characteristics and
> vibration that it's going to stall. The aircraft that don't tell you about
> the impending stall are the ones with which to be very careful.


Thanks, especially for the above bit. Don't know if it's because
someone once told me or something I'd read somewhere but I was under
the impression that when flying and if you didn't have external visual
references of the ground, there's NO way that a pilot can know the
airspeed of his aircraft.

On another matter, everything I've read so far about the AF447 crash
suggests that the aircraft was upset because it flew too slow (iced
pitot leading to erroneous airspeed readings) and pretty much went
down like a bag of cement and possibly hit the water at a nearly level
attitude!

Ramapriya

[BeechSundowner]

On Sep 29, 9:29*pm, D Ramapriya > wrote:

> Thanks, especially for the above bit. Don't know if it's because
> someone once told me or something I'd read somewhere but I was under
> the impression that when flying and if you didn't have external visual
> references of the ground, there's NO way that a pilot can know the
> airspeed of his aircraft.

Visually, you are correct and even "sensually" (feeling), while IMC
there is no way to tell speed or what direction the nose of the plane
is pointed (up, down, right or left). The instrumentation is the only
source of information you have telling you what direction the ground
and sky points to.

With regards to airspeed, there are other clues to be watched for
airspeed besides the airspeed indicator and one is engine RPM.
Generally speaking, under normal flight attitudes, the engine RPM will
increase as you point down which subsequently means your airspeed is
building. You hear this increase just as if you hear the engine noise
level go down, that would normally indicate the nose of the plane is
pointed up and your airspeed is decreasing.

[a[_3_]]

On Sep 30, 9:42*am, BeechSundowner > wrote:
> On Sep 29, 9:29*pm, D Ramapriya > wrote:
>
> > Thanks, especially for the above bit. Don't know if it's because
> > someone once told me or something I'd read somewhere but I was under
> > the impression that when flying and if you didn't have external visual
> > references of the ground, there's NO way that a pilot can know the
> > airspeed of his aircraft.
>
> Visually, you are correct and even "sensually" (feeling), while IMC
> there is no way to tell speed or what direction the nose of the plane
> is pointed (up, down, right or left). *The instrumentation is the only
> source of information you have telling you what direction the ground
> and sky points to.
>
> With regards to airspeed, there are other clues to be watched for
> airspeed besides the airspeed indicator and one is engine RPM.
> Generally speaking, under normal flight attitudes, the engine RPM will
> increase as you point down which subsequently means your airspeed is
> building. *You hear this increase just as if you hear the engine noise
> level go down, that would normally indicate the nose of the plane is
> pointed up and your airspeed is decreasing.

Even under the hood as one approaches the stall or slow flight in
general aviation airplanes the controls are really soft -- little bits
of pressure make for large excursions. One should not depend on those
kinds of clues when there is no outside visual reference (that by the
way is LOT different than being in IMC) but it from a sensation
standpoint is pretty much like waving an oar in air instead of in
water. At cruise speeds the yoke has a certain 'stiffness' that is is
largely gone at lower airspeeds. Absent a working airspeed gauge
because you might have driven the pitot tube into a seagull of
something, the link between manifold pressure, RPM, and pitch attitude
is a pretty reliable indication of airspeed for a given airplane
configuration.

[Flaps_50!]

On Sep 29, 5:28*am, "Panic" > wrote:
> That crab "correction" was the hardest thing to get used to when I flew the
> B-52H back in the early 60s. * We had a little chart near the rudder control
> knob to enter the angle and velocity of the crosswind, then we pulled up on
> the knob and cranked it to the chart value to hydraulically move the main
> gear so that it would be aligned with the runway even though we landed still
> in a crab. * We could crank up to 20° of alignment correction.
>
> All of my previous years, once we finally saw the runway at very low
> altitude we'd kick out the crab and use wing low cross control for landing.
> GCA minimums were 100' ceiling. *You had to psyche yourself ahead of time to
> insure that when you finally spotted the runway you'd leave the crab in and
> land that way. *(but...make sure you entered the crab correction in the
> right direction)
>
> "BeechSundowner" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Sep 26, 8:46 pm, a > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 26, 11:10 am, " > wrote:
> > I noticed when you broke out at 500 feet agl you aligned the axis of
> > the airplane with the runway then tended to drift a little left, and
> > coordinated turned yourself onto the center line again. Absolutely
> > nothing wrong with that, but my habit is a little different. I
> > continue to fly the localizer at whatever crab angle I need to keep
> > the needle centered and when much lower drop the windward wing, kick
> > the airplane into alignment and transition to a cross wind landing.
> > It would be interesting for the thread to address the advantanges and
> > disadvantages of each method.
>
> A,
>
> While IMC, I do exactly what you say, fly the crab all the way down.
> Problem and why you see me drift left when I break out was I was 1/2
> dot off fthe localizer to the right, so in order to find the
> centerline, it required a slight turn to the left when I broke out 512
> MSL or *200 AGL.
>
> You can see my "reintercept" of the centerline from 7:20 to to 7:30 by
> watching the point of the cowling in relationship to the runway
> centerline. *During this 10 seconds, I was correcting the right of the
> localizer problem.
>
> Couple of thoughts, as I did not even realize until breaking out that
> I had that much of a crab as I was so focused on maintaining the
> localizer. . *It took several adjustments of the header bug on descent
> to find that sweet spot in tracking. *When I broke out, needless to
> say I was surprised at my crab angle (like, oh crap, where's the
> runway!), and thus the sharp "response on the yoke" *My subsequent
> approaches were not that abrupt on the yoke as I was better prepared.
>

Didn't you know the x-wind factor for the runway you were using?

Cheers

[Flaps_50!]

On Oct 1, 2:42*am, BeechSundowner > wrote:
> On Sep 29, 9:29*pm, D Ramapriya > wrote:
>
> > Thanks, especially for the above bit. Don't know if it's because
> > someone once told me or something I'd read somewhere but I was under
> > the impression that when flying and if you didn't have external visual
> > references of the ground, there's NO way that a pilot can know the
> > airspeed of his aircraft.
>
> Visually, you are correct and even "sensually" (feeling), while IMC
> there is no way to tell speed or what direction the nose of the plane
> is pointed (up, down, right or left). *The instrumentation is the only
> source of information you have telling you what direction the ground
> and sky points to.
>
> With regards to airspeed, there are other clues to be watched for
> airspeed besides the airspeed indicator and one is engine RPM.
> Generally speaking, under normal flight attitudes, the engine RPM will
> increase as you point down which subsequently means your airspeed is
> building. *

Yes, for a fixed pitch prop. With a CSU its not so. Airframe noise
does increase but that's subtle for small speed excursions and I have
no idea if you can pick that up with noise cancelling headsets..

Cheers

[BeechSundowner]

On Sep 30, 10:48*pm, "Flaps_50!" > wrote:

> Didn't you know the x-wind factor for the runway you were using?

It changed as I was descending. The only thing I need to know is that
the x-wind is not above my capabilities before executing the approach.

My job is to keep the localizer centered and deal with the WCA
visually when I break out.

[a[_3_]]

On Oct 1, 8:37*am, BeechSundowner > wrote:
> On Sep 30, 10:48*pm, "Flaps_50!" > wrote:
>
> > Didn't you know the x-wind factor for the runway you were using?
>
> It changed as I was descending. *The only thing I need to know is that
> the x-wind is not above my capabilities before executing the approach.
>
> My job is to keep the localizer centered and deal with the WCA
> visually when I break out.

To support Sundowner's observation -- I simply don't worry about the
crosswind component once I start an approach. The DG and runway
heading tell me where to look for the runway environement when close
to minima, and the final decision regarding landing or going elsewhere
is dependent on, among other things, if I have enough rudder to keep
the airplane aligned with the center line at reasonable touch down
speeds. I don't remember ever having to go to an alternate because of
an excessive cross wind. I have, at oncontrolled airports, had to
because all I could see at mimimums was the inside of a cloud.

It's worth noting if there is a strong crosswind there is no
obligation to land with the airplane axis aligned with the centerline.
On a wide runway touch down closer to the downwind edge with the
airplane aimed on a diagonal -- you can steal up to 8 or 9 degrees of
cross wind that way. But don't try that without adult supervision, you
(or at least I) need a lot of hours in a given airplane and have to
know its characteristics very well to pull that off.

..

[Ross]

BeechSundowner wrote:
> On Sep 30, 10:48 pm, "Flaps_50!" > wrote:
>
>> Didn't you know the x-wind factor for the runway you were using?
>
> It changed as I was descending. The only thing I need to know is that
> the x-wind is not above my capabilities before executing the approach.
>
> My job is to keep the localizer centered and deal with the WCA
> visually when I break out.

I have had wind changes that made significant changes on the way down
from the FAF.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Jon Woellhaf]

Isn't it an FAA regulation that wind has to change direction and speed
during all approaches in IMC? <g>

"Ross" > wrote in message
...
> I have had wind changes that made significant changes on the way down from
> the FAF.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> Sold :(
> KSWI

[BeechSundowner]

On Oct 1, 12:50*pm, "Jon Woellhaf" > wrote:
> Isn't it an FAA regulation that wind has to change direction and speed
> during all approaches in IMC? <g>

And for those FARS hungry, that can be found in FARS 91.999.999 point
niner sub paragragh J point 1 subject to wind conditions. If such
conditions exist, go down to W.I.N.D. and down to S.P.E.E.D, then to
the paragraph C.H.N.G.S for the regulation Jon refers to. LOL

[Flaps_50!]

On Oct 2, 1:37*am, BeechSundowner > wrote:
> On Sep 30, 10:48*pm, "Flaps_50!" > wrote:
>
> > Didn't you know the x-wind factor for the runway you were using?
>
> It changed as I was descending. *The only thing I need to know is that
> the x-wind is not above my capabilities before executing the approach.
>
> My job is to keep the localizer centered and deal with the WCA
> visually when I break out.

Sure, but my point is that you should then know where to look for the
runway threshold ...

Cheers

[Scott Braddock]

Flaps_50! wrote:
/snip/
> Sure, but my point is that you should then know where to look for the
> runway threshold ...
>
> Cheers

You've never actually flown IFR, in real life, have you?

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[Dylan Smith[_2_]]

On 2009-10-02, Flaps_50! > wrote:
> Sure, but my point is that you should then know where to look for the
> runway threshold ...

You'll know that anyway, after all, you need to pay attention to the
DG as you follow the localizer. However, I've done more than one ILS
where the reported crosswind at the airfield hasn't even remotely
resembled the wind conditions at 300ft AGL.

[BeechSundowner]

On Oct 1, 11:11*pm, "Flaps_50!" > wrote:

> Sure, but my point is that you should then know where to look for the
> runway threshold ...
>
> Cheers

Ummm, where did I say I didn't know where to look the runway was? I
said I was surprised on the crab angle on breaking out. My job before
breaking out is to maintain the localizer. Last thing on my mind is
the crab angle while IMC on my descent.

The only thing I need to know is the "general direction" where the
runway is breaking out to land. As others indicated, the DG and my
header bug will clue me in which direction to look.

Oh yeah, another thing. When going to minimums, we have to identify
the runway APPROACH lights, not the runway threshold when breaking out.

[a[_3_]]

On Oct 2, 10:13*am, BeechSundowner > wrote:
> On Oct 1, 11:11*pm, "Flaps_50!" > wrote:
>
> > Sure, but my point is that you should then know where to look for the
> > runway threshold ...
>
> > Cheers
>
> Ummm, where did I say I didn't know where to look the runway was? *I
> said I was surprised on the crab angle on breaking out. My job before
> breaking out is to maintain the localizer. *Last thing on my mind is
> the crab angle while IMC on my descent.
>
> The only thing I need to know is the "general direction" where the
> runway is breaking out to land. *As others indicated, the DG and my
> header bug will clue me in which direction to look.
>
> Oh yeah, another thing. *When going to minimums, we have to identify
> the runway APPROACH lights, not the runway threshold when breaking out.

Another point, if you have an analog ADF -- the OM is also a beacon at
many airports -- glance at the needle when you get close to the middle
marker: It's a neat analog (no mental math) way of knowing where to
look -- if the needle is pointing 15 degrees to the left of the tail,
expect the approach lights to be pointed to by the end tail end of the
needle, 15 degrees to the right of the nose.

[BeechSundowner]

On Oct 2, 10:27*am, a > wrote:

> Another point, if you have an analog ADF -- the OM is also a beacon at
> many airports -- glance at the needle when you get close to the middle
> marker: It's a neat analog (no mental math) way of knowing where to
> look -- if the needle is pointing 15 degrees to the left of the tail,
> expect the approach lights to be pointed to by the end tail end of the
> needle, 15 degrees to the right of the nose.

Too cool. While I don't have an ADF, I can clearly visualize what you
say and **almost** wish mine was still op as having a visual aid is
always is nice.

Also love your high Xwind landing tip you gave. It took me awhile to
visualize that as I kept thinking why land downwind side of the
runway, but it makes perfect sense thinking it through as now you are
set up for taxi, one step of the airplane before landing, I like it.

I probably wouldn't do it myself as if the winds were that high, I
probably wouldn't be flying anyway :-) but it's certainly a good tool
to consider should surface winds be higher then "forecasted" *surprise
surpise*./

[a[_3_]]

On Oct 2, 11:34*am, BeechSundowner > wrote:
> On Oct 2, 10:27*am, a > wrote:
>
> > Another point, if you have an analog ADF -- the OM is also a beacon at
> > many airports -- glance at the needle when you get close to the middle
> > marker: It's a neat analog (no mental math) way of knowing where to
> > look -- if the needle is pointing 15 degrees to the left of the tail,
> > expect the approach lights to be pointed to by the end tail end of the
> > needle, 15 degrees to the right of the nose.
>
> Too cool. *While I don't have an ADF, I can clearly visualize what you
> say and **almost** wish mine was still op as having a visual aid is
> always is nice.
>
> Also love your high Xwind landing tip you gave. *It took me awhile to
> visualize that as I kept thinking why land downwind side of the
> runway, but it makes perfect sense thinking it through as now you are
> set up for taxi, one step of the airplane before landing, I like it.
>
> I probably wouldn't do it myself as if the winds were that *high, I
> probably wouldn't be flying anyway :-) but it's certainly a good tool
> to consider should surface winds be higher then "forecasted" *surprise
> surpise*./



About ADFs. It's nice to know the clear channel AM stations. I can for
example tune into WBZ (1030) Boston from very far away, and the
ADFneedle will remind me of the direct route, That;s fun VFR at night,
but I don;t fly VFR at night. I also like that the needle points to
active thunderstorms when it's not providing a hint as to the way
home.

What angling into the wind by aiming at an angle across the runway
buys me is a somewhat slower touchdown speed. I like to land with the
airplane just about out of flying speed, and I hate having the rudder
into the stop to keep things aligned at the end of the flair, there's
no final 'kick' if it;s needed, and the damned nosewheel is pointing
off in left field somewhere. As I said earlier, these are things that
I would not do unless I really had lots of hours in the airplane.
Also, I never enter the flair without flaps, but in a cross wind (they
are electric and take a couple of seconds for each notch of flaps) I
start them up when into the flair. I don't want a slower stall speed
then, I want the airplane to stop flying. This is probably not a good
thing to do unless you are paying close attention. Sucking up the
wheels then does reduce the landing role, but it's a good idea to make
sure you're messing with the right control if you want to use the
airplane soon after landing.

I think one could writ a book on flying tips just by haresting them
from the newsgroup. I learned here to be more aggressive with clearing
turns on downwind base and final especially at uncontrolled airports,
and I strap on oxygen at night when at or above 9000 feet for an
extended period of time. Some of my practices, like those above, are
probably too wrong in the risk / benefit ratio for people who are
booking a hundred hours a year in different airplanes. One size does
not fit all.

I use my airplane for business, and even so abort one planned trip (or
leg) out of every 10 or 15 for safety reasons. Ice in the clouds,
embedded thunderstorms are showstoppers. I don't mind bouncing around
in the clouds if there are no thunderstorms, and it's frankly not
often that weather is worse than my personal minima and forecasted to
stay that way throughout my desired window of opportunity. My airplane
holds 66 gallons of fuel, and I average less than 9 gph, so so long as
everything keeps working 7 hours of endurance at 150 knots or more
gets me to golden alternates.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Scott Braddock" > wrote in message
mmunications...
> Flaps_50! wrote:
> /snip/
>> Sure, but my point is that you should then know where to look for the
>> runway threshold ...
>>
>> Cheers
>
> You've never actually flown IFR, in real life, have you?

Flaps 50 is an internet troll, and of no consequence, and has clearly never
flown a plane, but has done a small amount of reading on the subject.

His style is similar to the Anthon_ troll that we would all like to forget.
We would all do well to make no response to his comments.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Dohm]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scott Braddock" > wrote in message
> mmunications...
>> Flaps_50! wrote:
>> /snip/
>>> Sure, but my point is that you should then know where to look for the
>>> runway threshold ...
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>
>> You've never actually flown IFR, in real life, have you?
>
> Flaps 50 is an internet troll, and of no consequence, and has clearly
> never flown a plane, but has done a small amount of reading on the
> subject.
>
> His style is similar to the Anthon_ troll that we would all like to
> forget. We would all do well to make no response to his comments.
> --
> Jim in NC
Amen!

Peter in FL

[Flaps_50!]

On Oct 4, 9:40*am, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "Scott Braddock" > wrote in message
>
> mmunications...
>
> > Flaps_50! wrote:
> > /snip/
> >> Sure, but my point is that you should then know where to look for the
> >> runway threshold ...
>
> >> Cheers
>
> > You've never actually flown IFR, in real life, have you?
>
> *Flaps 50 is an internet troll, and of no consequence, and has clearly never
> flown a plane, but has done a small amount of reading on the subject.
>

Your presumption makes you look foolish.

Cheers