Delta Aircraft lands on taxiway in Alanta

[Ross]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/georgia.taxiway.incursion/index.html

Back to incursions.
--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Darkwing]

"Ross" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/georgia.taxiway.incursion/index.html
>
> Back to incursions.
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> Sold :(
> KSWI

Wow, thats a major screw up!

[Peter Dohm]

"Ross" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/georgia.taxiway.incursion/index.html
>
> Back to incursions.
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> Sold :(
> KSWI

Other than the runway and taxiway lights being in use, the article did not
apear to mention the time of day, place of origin, or the number of hours
the crew had been or duty.

Y'all don't suppose that crew fatigue could have played a part?

Peter

[a[_3_]]

On Oct 21, 7:40*pm, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
> "Ross" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/georgia.taxiway.incursion/index.html
>
> > Back to incursions.
> > --
>
> > Regards, Ross
> > C-172F 180HP
> > Sold :(
> > KSWI
>
> Other than the runway and taxiway lights being in use, the article did not
> apear to mention the time of day, place of origin, or the number of hours
> the crew had been or duty.
>
> Y'all don't suppose that crew fatigue could have played a part?
>
> Peter

Peter, it landed at 6:05 AM, it would have been quite dark, and the
flight was I think from Reo. I guess if there was a cross wind of,
say, 50 knots, if they were flying an ILS the nose could have been
pointing at the taxiway when they broke out (that is intended to be
funny -- this event was not).

Years ago I was flying an approach into Seattle's airport (Seatac?),
and not very far off the extended centerline of the runway I was to
use was another airport, with a runway aligned almost the same way. I
wonder how often visitors land at the wrong airport?

[Stubby[_3_]]

On Oct 21, 10:46*pm, a > wrote:
> On Oct 21, 7:40*pm, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Ross" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > >http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/georgia.taxiway.incursion/index.html
>
> > > Back to incursions.
> > > --
>
> > > Regards, Ross
> > > C-172F 180HP
> > > Sold :(
> > > KSWI
>
> > Other than the runway and taxiway lights being in use, the article did not
> > apear to mention the time of day, place of origin, or the number of hours
> > the crew had been or duty.
>
> > Y'all don't suppose that crew fatigue could have played a part?
>
> > Peter
>
> Peter, it landed at 6:05 AM, it would have been quite dark, and the
> flight was I think from Reo. I guess if there was a cross wind of,
> say, 50 knots, if they were flying an ILS the nose could have been
> pointing at the taxiway when they broke out (that is intended to be
> funny -- this event was not).
>
> Years ago I was flying an approach into Seattle's airport (Seatac?),
> and not very far off the extended centerline of the runway I was to
> use was another airport, with a runway aligned almost the same way. I
> wonder how often visitors land at the wrong airport?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I have suffered momentary confusion at an airport that was using a
closed runway as a taxiway.

[Ross]

Stubby wrote:
> On Oct 21, 10:46 pm, a > wrote:
>> On Oct 21, 7:40 pm, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Ross" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/georgia.taxiway.incursion/index.html
>>>> Back to incursions.
>>>> --
>>>> Regards, Ross
>>>> C-172F 180HP
>>>> Sold :(
>>>> KSWI
>>> Other than the runway and taxiway lights being in use, the article did not
>>> apear to mention the time of day, place of origin, or the number of hours
>>> the crew had been or duty.
>>> Y'all don't suppose that crew fatigue could have played a part?
>>> Peter
>> Peter, it landed at 6:05 AM, it would have been quite dark, and the
>> flight was I think from Reo. I guess if there was a cross wind of,
>> say, 50 knots, if they were flying an ILS the nose could have been
>> pointing at the taxiway when they broke out (that is intended to be
>> funny -- this event was not).
>>
>> Years ago I was flying an approach into Seattle's airport (Seatac?),
>> and not very far off the extended centerline of the runway I was to
>> use was another airport, with a runway aligned almost the same way. I
>> wonder how often visitors land at the wrong airport?- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> I have suffered momentary confusion at an airport that was using a
> closed runway as a taxiway.


Long ago there use to be two airports in Kansas City area. One on the
Kansas side (Fairfax) and the other on the MO side which was the
original KC main airport. A river separated the two airports. There was
a hot line between the towers because the pilot would be talking to one
tower and landing at the other airport. Fairfax is now gone.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Peter Dohm]

"a" > wrote in message
...
>On Oct 21, 7:40 pm, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>> "Ross" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/georgia.taxiway.incursion/index.html
>>
>> > Back to incursions.
>> > --
>>
>> > Regards, Ross
>> > C-172F 180HP
>> > Sold :(
>> > KSWI
>>
>> Other than the runway and taxiway lights being in use, the article did
>> not
>> apear to mention the time of day, place of origin, or the number of hours
>> the crew had been or duty.
>>
>> Y'all don't suppose that crew fatigue could have played a part?
>>
>> Peter
>
>
> Peter, it landed at 6:05 AM, it would have been quite dark, and the
> flight was I think from Reo. I guess if there was a cross wind of,
> say, 50 knots, if they were flying an ILS the nose could have been
> pointing at the taxiway when they broke out (that is intended to be
> funny -- this event was not).
>
> Years ago I was flying an approach into Seattle's airport (Seatac?),
> and not very far off the extended centerline of the runway I was to
> use was another airport, with a runway aligned almost the same way. I
> wonder how often visitors land at the wrong airport?
>
I have lined up on a taxiway by mistake, in the middle of the afternoon and
I was well rested. That was as a student pilot, and back before every
incident became a big deal. In any case, that was a common enough
occurrance in those days on Runway 18 at Tampa and the controller caught the
error before I could even roll out with the wrong alignment.

However, I have also seen some of the faulty reasoning that can occur during
the hours of darkness, especially when it is not your normal waking hours,
and have been a participant a few times--and not only in aviation. In this
particular case, the crew almost certainly would have seen what was wrong,
and acted appropriately, if there had been any activity in progress on the
taxiway--but they also would have been far less likely to fall into a
similar sequence of errors during the beginning of the night-time low
traffic period. I have read that the highest incidence of really poor
reasoning and decision making occurs between the hours of approximately 1:00
am and 6:00 am, with the time periods just before and after being not quite
as attrocious. Just as a couple of examples, the nuclear power plant
accidents at Three Mile Island and also at Chernobyl both occurred during
the pre-dawn time periods which would have been the second half of a mornal
sleeping period.

So my point is that, if we really want to be serious about safety and good
decision making; sanctioning the above flight crew is probably a poor
choice. We might do a lot better to simply accept our failings as humans,
which are unlikely to change meaningfully, and take a hard look at which
activities really MUST be accomplished during those hours, how much such
activity is truly necessary, and also the possibility that staffing levels
should be greater in order to assure a greater margin of safety in the high
risk time periods.

IMHO, we have been going in exactly the wrong direction and, since the
subject of this thread was an airline transport incident, I will use them as
my example. Just a few decades ago, the crew of a transport aircraft on an
international flight would have included a Navigator and a Flight Engineer
in addition to the Pilor and Copilot. That provided a lot more backup, and a
lot more opportunity to notice something amiss and call attention to it. In
addition, I have every reason to suppose that the staffing level in the
tower is also reduced during non peak hours.

Peter

[ManhattanMan]

Ross wrote:
> Stubby wrote:
>> On Oct 21, 10:46 pm, a > wrote:
>>> On Oct 21, 7:40 pm, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Ross" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/21/georgia.taxiway.incursion/index.html
>>>>> Back to incursions.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards, Ross
>>>>> C-172F 180HP
>>>>> Sold :(
>>>>> KSWI
>>>> Other than the runway and taxiway lights being in use, the article
>>>> did not apear to mention the time of day, place of origin, or the
>>>> number of hours the crew had been or duty.
>>>> Y'all don't suppose that crew fatigue could have played a part?
>>>> Peter
>>> Peter, it landed at 6:05 AM, it would have been quite dark, and the
>>> flight was I think from Reo. I guess if there was a cross wind of,
>>> say, 50 knots, if they were flying an ILS the nose could have been
>>> pointing at the taxiway when they broke out (that is intended to be
>>> funny -- this event was not).
>>>
>>> Years ago I was flying an approach into Seattle's airport (Seatac?),
>>> and not very far off the extended centerline of the runway I was to
>>> use was another airport, with a runway aligned almost the same way.
>>> I wonder how often visitors land at the wrong airport?- Hide quoted
>>> text - - Show quoted text -
>>
>> I have suffered momentary confusion at an airport that was using a
>> closed runway as a taxiway.
>
>
> Long ago there use to be two airports in Kansas City area. One on the
> Kansas side (Fairfax) and the other on the MO side which was the
> original KC main airport. A river separated the two airports. There
> was a hot line between the towers because the pilot would be talking
> to one tower and landing at the other airport. Fairfax is now gone.

Got my PPL there in '67. Great airport to learn right and left patterns
since you always had to keep west of Fairfax to avoid KMKC. It was turned
into a GM assembly plant over thirty years ago so hard telling what it is
today. I left KC 20 years ago.

[Ross]

ManhattanMan wrote:
> Ross wrote:
>> Stubby wrote:
>>> On Oct 21, 10:46 pm, a > wrote:
>>>> On Oct 21, 7:40 pm, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:

>/snip/

>> to one tower and landing at the other airport. Fairfax is now gone.
>
> Got my PPL there in '67. Great airport to learn right and left patterns
> since you always had to keep west of Fairfax to avoid KMKC. It was turned
> into a GM assembly plant over thirty years ago so hard telling what it is
> today. I left KC 20 years ago.
>
>

I got my PPL at Hillside Airport far south of KCMO. 1800' Ma and Pa
operation. C-150 was $8.00/hr wet. This was 1970. Got my CPL at, then,
Johnson County Airport though the Johnson county community college. Paid
$75 for tuition and $14.00/hr wet for C-172 or Cherokee 140s.
Instructors were free as they were paid by the college. Did a lot of
flying out of Stateline Airport at 150 highway and Stateline. I left in
1974. And, I thought flying was expensive then. Kansas City
International was being built. I remember doing T&Gs up there and was in
the pattern with a TWA L-1011 doing the same thing.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Darkwing]

"Ross" > wrote in message
...
> ManhattanMan wrote:
>> Ross wrote:
>>> Stubby wrote:
>>>> On Oct 21, 10:46 pm, a > wrote:
>>>>> On Oct 21, 7:40 pm, "Peter Dohm" > wrote:
>
>>/snip/
>
>>> to one tower and landing at the other airport. Fairfax is now gone.
>>
>> Got my PPL there in '67. Great airport to learn right and left patterns
>> since you always had to keep west of Fairfax to avoid KMKC. It was
>> turned into a GM assembly plant over thirty years ago so hard telling
>> what it is today. I left KC 20 years ago.
>
> I got my PPL at Hillside Airport far south of KCMO. 1800' Ma and Pa
> operation. C-150 was $8.00/hr wet. This was 1970. Got my CPL at, then,
> Johnson County Airport though the Johnson county community college. Paid
> $75 for tuition and $14.00/hr wet for C-172 or Cherokee 140s. Instructors
> were free as they were paid by the college.

I like those prices!