towing a sailplane trailer / vehicle [Archive]

October 30th 09, 06:32 AM

As Dave said, it depends on what you're towing.
For a start, whatever it is had better have trailer brakes.
I had a Nimbus 3 in a Pfeiffer trailer, and towed it with 3
vehicles:
00 Subaru Outback 2.5L manual.
96 Chevy Tahoe V8 auto. (purchased before the Nimbus trailer had
brakes)
97 Holden Commodore V6 auto.
Without a doubt, other than starting on a hill the Outback was the
best tow vehicle. High winds weren't much of a factor. The Tahoe by
comparison was awful in windy conditions, not that it handled well at
any time compared to the Subaru. The Tahoe V8 with automatic was nice
for stop and go traffic but big V8 engines and automatic transmissions
are a waste otherwise.
The Outback also towed LS-6, Libelle, AS-W20, AS-W27, AS-H26E. All
in Cobra Trailers, all felt great.
Outback fuel economy was 23MPG (US Gallon) towing at 65 to 70MPH
with the AC on. Without a trailer, it's a fun car to drive. Expect
26MPG at 80MPH with AC on. Excellent in snow. Not bad in the dirt, but
replace the factory "skid plate" with something real.
However, the Outback has a weakness other than the infamous head
gaskets. The viscous clutch in the transfer case gets too hot towing
heavy trailers. The AS-H26E and Mojave Desert combination did it in.
Had the Outback for 10 years. Was going to replace it with a 3.0L
Outback (unfortunately only available with automatic) but found out
the transfer case is the same. The replacement, an 08 RAV4 V6
automatic tows very well and isn't too thirsty, but I miss the
Outback's handling and manual gearbox.
Bottom line: If it's 15M span or new generation 18m pure glider in a
good trailer, you'll love the Subaru.
Jim

On Oct 29, 7:52*pm, Dave Nadler > wrote:
> On Oct 29, 9:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
>
> Depends what you are towing !

Surfer!

October 30th 09, 08:39 AM

In message
>,
ryanglover1969 > writes
>Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
>reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
>work.
>
>So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
>trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
>the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
>tear up the transmission.
>
>I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.
>
>Thanks, Ryan

I live in the UK and have no problems towing a 15m glider in a metal
trailer. Fuel consumption suffers a bit, but so long as the trailer is
correctly loaded it is just fine. My car is a 4-cylinder manual diesel,
not a truck or a 4WD. Thankfully the tow ball isn't that high on the
car - if it was the back of the trailer would be rather close to the
ground.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

October 30th 09, 11:30 AM

qflyer1

October 30th 09, 12:22 PM

No problems with my Outback - '95 and '02 - both automatics.
Mileage did suck in hilly terrain. I put some extra air in the tires
to stiffen things up a bit.
Second the brakes comment.

Tim
1FL

On Oct 29, 10:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
> reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
> work.
>
> So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
> trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
> the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
> tear up the transmission.
>
> I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.
>
> Thanks, Ryan

rlovinggood

October 30th 09, 12:33 PM

Ryan,

I tow my glider with a 2005 Subaru Forester with the 2.5 liter four
cylinder, non-turbocharged gasoline engine, with 4 speed automatic
transmission.

Before I found the car, I first towed my trailer with a friend's car,
fully loaded with glider, tail dolly, tow-out gear, wash bucket, wing
stand, folding chair, etc, to a truck stop and weighed the trailer on
the scales. Result: 2,040 lbs! A LOT heavier than I had
anticipated. Tongue weight is 180 lbs. That, too is a lot more than
anticipated. But once I knew the weight of the trailer, I knew what I
had to look for in a tow vehicle. Oh, by the way, the "tow vehicle"
was going to be my every day driver, too. So, it had to be affordable
to purchase and to drive. And the Subaru fit the bill.

The Forester is rated to tow 2,400 lbs (in America. Seems to be
different in different countries. Lawyers at work?) if the trailer
has brakes. Only 1,000 lbs if the trailer doesn't have brakes. My
trailer, a Swan, has brakes. Max tongue weight is 200 lbs.

While my trailer weighs less than the maximum allowable tow weight, I
did have an automatic transmission oil cooler installed. Necessary?
I don't know. But I had it installed anyway. Subaru doesn't offer an
auxillary transmission cooler (the stock setup routes transmission oil
to a section of the radiator for cooling), so I had an independant
transmission shop install it for me.

Here on the east coast of USA, the Subaru tows the trailer just fine.
I have towed it up the steep climbs on I-77 through North Carolina,
Virginia and West Virginia without problems. On those climbs, I
pulled the transmission down to third gear and continued on at about
50 mph. I've pulled it up to New Castle, VA without any problems.
Now, one caveat is that on all these trips, the outside temperature
was cool. I've never had the opportunity to tow it up through the
mountains on a hot day. There is a transmission temperature "idiot
light" that is supposed to come on when the transmission gets hot.
I've never seen it come on. Not really sure if that means the tranny
is toast once it comes on, or just saying to pull over and let it cool
down before preceeding on...

Gas mileage towing varies from 20 - 22 mpg. Without the trailer, on
the highway, it gets about 26 mpg. As an everyday driver, it does
just fine. No, it's not as refined as my previous Honda Accord. It's
noiser in the cabin, less room, somewhat "cheaper" looking than either
the Accord or my wife's Hyundai Sonata. But here's the main point:
It is rated to tow my trailer. Nothing else matters.

Since it has the non-turbo engine, it burns regular ocatane gasoline.
Go with the turbo option, and you have to use premium gasoline. Your
fun factor goes up, but so does the gas bill.

The new Outbacks can be bought, in America, with a new 3.5 liter six
cylinder engine and it uses regular octane gasoline. I think in the
previous six, you had to use premium. If you get the four cylinder, I
think you get a continuously variable transmission, and I don't know
how that would work out for towing.

In Europe, the Forester is available with a four cylinder turbo-
diesel. Too bad we don't have that available in America. Not yet,
anyway.

So, I can recommend a Subaru for towing your trailer.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

delboy

October 30th 09, 01:20 PM

As a Brit, I just love these US discussions about the impossibilty of
towing glider trailers with anything that doesn't weigh at least 3
tons, with a huge gas guzzling V8 engine. Due to our Government's
dependence on fuel duties, which are extortionate, most of us own
quite modest sized cars, but we still tow glider trailers around. A
1.6 litre vehicle will tow a single seater glider trailer perfectly
well and 2.0 litres for a two seater trailer. It is probably best to
keep the speed below 60 mph though (legal speed limit for trailers
anyway in the UK) . Automatic gearboxes may need an oil cooler fitted.

Derek Copeland

On Oct 30, 12:33*pm, rlovinggood > wrote:
> Ryan,
>
> I tow my glider with a 2005 Subaru Forester with the 2.5 liter four
> cylinder, non-turbocharged gasoline engine, with 4 speed automatic
> transmission.
>
> Before I found the car, I first towed my trailer with a friend's car,
> fully loaded with glider, tail dolly, tow-out gear, wash bucket, wing
> stand, folding chair, etc, to a truck stop and weighed the trailer on
> the scales. *Result: *2,040 lbs! *A LOT heavier than I had
> anticipated. *Tongue weight is 180 lbs. *That, too is a lot more than
> anticipated. *But once I knew the weight of the trailer, I knew what I
> had to look for in a tow vehicle. *Oh, by the way, the "tow vehicle"
> was going to be my every day driver, too. *So, it had to be affordable
> to purchase and to drive. *And the Subaru fit the bill.
>
> The Forester is rated to tow 2,400 lbs (in America. *Seems to be
> different in different countries. *Lawyers at work?) if the trailer
> has brakes. *Only 1,000 lbs if the trailer doesn't have brakes. *My
> trailer, a Swan, has brakes. *Max tongue weight is 200 lbs.
>
> While my trailer weighs less than the maximum allowable tow weight, I
> did have an automatic transmission oil cooler installed. *Necessary?
> I don't know. *But I had it installed anyway. *Subaru doesn't offer an
> auxillary transmission cooler (the stock setup routes transmission oil
> to a section of the radiator for cooling), so I had an independant
> transmission shop install it for me.
>
> Here on the east coast of USA, the Subaru tows the trailer just fine.
> I have towed it up the steep climbs on I-77 through North Carolina,
> Virginia and West Virginia without problems. *On those climbs, I
> pulled the transmission down to third gear and continued on at about
> 50 mph. *I've pulled it up to New Castle, VA without any problems.
> Now, one caveat is that on all these trips, the outside temperature
> was cool. *I've never had the opportunity to tow it up through the
> mountains on a hot day. *There is a transmission temperature "idiot
> light" that is supposed to come on when the transmission gets hot.
> I've never seen it come on. *Not really sure if that means the tranny
> is toast once it comes on, or just saying to pull over and let it cool
> down before preceeding on...
>
> Gas mileage towing varies from 20 - 22 mpg. *Without the trailer, on
> the highway, it gets about 26 mpg. *As an everyday driver, it does
> just fine. *No, it's not as refined as my previous Honda Accord. *It's
> noiser in the cabin, less room, somewhat "cheaper" looking than either
> the Accord or my wife's Hyundai Sonata. *But here's the main point:
> It is rated to tow my trailer. *Nothing else matters.
>
> Since it has the non-turbo engine, it burns regular ocatane gasoline.
> Go with the turbo option, and you have to use premium gasoline. *Your
> fun factor goes up, but so does the gas bill.
>
> The new Outbacks can be bought, in America, with a new 3.5 liter six
> cylinder engine and it uses regular octane gasoline. *I think in the
> previous six, you had to use premium. *If you get the four cylinder, I
> think you get a continuously variable transmission, and I don't know
> how that would work out for towing.
>
> In Europe, the Forester is available with a four cylinder turbo-
> diesel. *Too bad we don't have that available in America. *Not yet,
> anyway.
>
> So, I can recommend a Subaru for towing your trailer.
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

Nick S

October 30th 09, 02:18 PM

So how much bearing do I need to put on the tow rating of a vehicle? I
would like a new Ford Ranger with the 2.3L 4 cyl and a manual
transmission. The tow rating for that vehicle is only 1,540 lbs.

Bob

October 30th 09, 02:19 PM

I have a question, are glider trailers rated to tow above 60MPH. In
Europe where most of the trailers are made (I think) the max speed for
a trailer is 60mph /100kph. Just wondering as I see all kinds of
clames that people are towing faster than this. Would this be an
insurance problem if you had an accident and were going faster than
the trailer is rated? Just wondering.

Bob (waiting for the wave)

vontresc

October 30th 09, 02:21 PM

On Oct 30, 8:20*am, delboy > wrote:
> As a Brit, I just love these US discussions about the impossibilty of
> towing glider trailers with anything that doesn't weigh at least 3
> tons, with a huge gas guzzling V8 engine. Due to our Government's
> dependence on fuel duties, which are extortionate, most of us own
> quite modest sized cars, but we still tow glider trailers around. A
> 1.6 litre vehicle will tow a single seater glider trailer perfectly
> well and 2.0 litres for a two seater trailer. It is probably best to
> keep the speed below 60 mph though (legal speed limit for trailers
> anyway in the UK) . Automatic gearboxes may need an oil cooler fitted.
>
> Derek Copeland
>
> On Oct 30, 12:33*pm, rlovinggood > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ryan,
>
> > I tow my glider with a 2005 Subaru Forester with the 2.5 liter four
> > cylinder, non-turbocharged gasoline engine, with 4 speed automatic
> > transmission.
>
> > Before I found the car, I first towed my trailer with a friend's car,
> > fully loaded with glider, tail dolly, tow-out gear, wash bucket, wing
> > stand, folding chair, etc, to a truck stop and weighed the trailer on
> > the scales. *Result: *2,040 lbs! *A LOT heavier than I had
> > anticipated. *Tongue weight is 180 lbs. *That, too is a lot more than
> > anticipated. *But once I knew the weight of the trailer, I knew what I
> > had to look for in a tow vehicle. *Oh, by the way, the "tow vehicle"
> > was going to be my every day driver, too. *So, it had to be affordable
> > to purchase and to drive. *And the Subaru fit the bill.
>
> > The Forester is rated to tow 2,400 lbs (in America. *Seems to be
> > different in different countries. *Lawyers at work?) if the trailer
> > has brakes. *Only 1,000 lbs if the trailer doesn't have brakes. *My
> > trailer, a Swan, has brakes. *Max tongue weight is 200 lbs.
>
> > While my trailer weighs less than the maximum allowable tow weight, I
> > did have an automatic transmission oil cooler installed. *Necessary?
> > I don't know. *But I had it installed anyway. *Subaru doesn't offer an
> > auxillary transmission cooler (the stock setup routes transmission oil
> > to a section of the radiator for cooling), so I had an independant
> > transmission shop install it for me.
>
> > Here on the east coast of USA, the Subaru tows the trailer just fine.
> > I have towed it up the steep climbs on I-77 through North Carolina,
> > Virginia and West Virginia without problems. *On those climbs, I
> > pulled the transmission down to third gear and continued on at about
> > 50 mph. *I've pulled it up to New Castle, VA without any problems.
> > Now, one caveat is that on all these trips, the outside temperature
> > was cool. *I've never had the opportunity to tow it up through the
> > mountains on a hot day. *There is a transmission temperature "idiot
> > light" that is supposed to come on when the transmission gets hot.
> > I've never seen it come on. *Not really sure if that means the tranny
> > is toast once it comes on, or just saying to pull over and let it cool
> > down before preceeding on...
>
> > Gas mileage towing varies from 20 - 22 mpg. *Without the trailer, on
> > the highway, it gets about 26 mpg. *As an everyday driver, it does
> > just fine. *No, it's not as refined as my previous Honda Accord. *It's
> > noiser in the cabin, less room, somewhat "cheaper" looking than either
> > the Accord or my wife's Hyundai Sonata. *But here's the main point:
> > It is rated to tow my trailer. *Nothing else matters.
>
> > Since it has the non-turbo engine, it burns regular ocatane gasoline.
> > Go with the turbo option, and you have to use premium gasoline. *Your
> > fun factor goes up, but so does the gas bill.
>
> > The new Outbacks can be bought, in America, with a new 3.5 liter six
> > cylinder engine and it uses regular octane gasoline. *I think in the
> > previous six, you had to use premium. *If you get the four cylinder, I
> > think you get a continuously variable transmission, and I don't know
> > how that would work out for towing.
>
> > In Europe, the Forester is available with a four cylinder turbo-
> > diesel. *Too bad we don't have that available in America. *Not yet,
> > anyway.
>
> > So, I can recommend a Subaru for towing your trailer.
>
> > Ray Lovinggood
> > Carrboro, North Carolina, USA- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

As an additional datapoint, I towed my Ka-6 from WI to Elmira NY and
back for IVSM behind my 1.8l Mazda Protege 5. The Mazda does have a
manual transmission, and I stayed in 4th at around 57mph the entire
way. The fuel mileage was pretty atrocious, but I blame the fact that
I am towing a slab sided bread box with no aerodynamic refinement
whatsoever.

Peter

rlovinggood

October 30th 09, 02:29 PM

On Oct 30, 10:18*am, Nick S > wrote:
> So how much bearing do I need to put on the tow rating of a vehicle? I
> would like a new Ford Ranger with the 2.3L 4 cyl and a manual
> transmission. The tow rating for that vehicle is only 1,540 lbs.

Nick, in my case, I had to put a good bit of bearing on the tow rating
of the vehicle. My old homebuilt trailer was very light. Now, that,
and the fact that it towed easily, were the ONLY things good about
it. My old 1988 Honda Accord 2.0 liter 5-speed manual towed it quite
easily. When I got an Accord V-6 with automatic transmission, it
towed it even better.

Then, I got a new trailer. Boy is it nice, but boy is it heavy, as
compared to the old home-built trailer. Unknown to me at the time, it
was too heavy for the Accord. The tow rating for the Accord was 1,000
lbs with a 100 lb max tongue weight. Turns out that 180 lb tongue
weight of the new trailer came very close to ripping the hitch off of
the bottom of the Accord's trunk. There was really not much steel in
the Honda to bolt a hitch to, and the strain imposed by the trailer
was ripping the bottom of the trunk away from the car. Thus the need
to find a different tow vehicle. And thus, my reason for first
weighing the loaded trailer, then secondly looking for a tow vehicle.
Now after a few thousand miles of towing the trailer with the Subaru,
there haven't been any problems.

Of course, Your Mileage May Vary...

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

John Smith

October 30th 09, 03:06 PM

rlovinggood wrote:
> lbs with a 100 lb max tongue weight. Turns out that 180 lb tongue
> weight of the new trailer came very close to ripping the hitch off of

This is ridiculous. There's no reason to have a tongue weight of more
than about 30 to 40 pounds. That you bought a new car rather than
rebalancing the trailer is even more ridiculous.

If Europeans want a faster plane, they refine the aerodynamics. If
Americans want a faster plane, they mount a bigger engine.

delboy

October 30th 09, 03:11 PM

On Oct 30, 2:18*pm, Nick S > wrote:
> So how much bearing do I need to put on the tow rating of a vehicle? I
> would like a new Ford Ranger with the 2.3L 4 cyl and a manual
> transmission. The tow rating for that vehicle is only 1,540 lbs.

I think that you will find that figure is for an UNBRAKED trailer (750
kg to us Europeans). Nearly all glider trailers are fitted with
overrun brakes. In the UK there is a recommendation (although not a
law) that the weight of the trailer should not exceed 85% of the kerb
weight of the towing vehicle. Most vehicles are capable of towing much
more than this, but you need to check the manufacturer's handbook for
exact details.

Derek Copeland

Uncle Fuzzy

October 30th 09, 03:18 PM

On Oct 30, 8:06*am, John Smith > wrote:
> rlovinggood wrote:
> > lbs with a 100 lb max tongue weight. *Turns out that 180 lb tongue
> > weight of the new trailer came very close to ripping the hitch off of
>
> This is ridiculous. There's no reason to have a tongue weight of more
> than about 30 to 40 pounds. That you bought a new car rather than
> rebalancing the trailer is even more ridiculous.
>
> If Europeans want a faster plane, they refine the aerodynamics. If
> Americans want a faster plane, they mount a bigger engine.

Yes there is. Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight. My
Komet trailer is almost exactly that. Our club Komet with the LS-4 in
it has, as you stated, about 30-50 pounds tongue weight. My trailer
is stable to well over 75 mph. The LS-4 trailer can get very ugly
around/above 65. Of course, it's not a problem if you're willing to
keep the speed down.

rlovinggood

October 30th 09, 04:15 PM

John,

As someone said, "Power corrupts. Absolute power is a pretty neat
thing." Or something like that. So a bigger engine would be alright
by me! :-)

Not sure how I could shift enough of the contents in the trailer to
get the tongue weight down to the featherweights you mention. It
would be a job of shifting the axle. Yea, with money, anything is
possible. I have seen a trailer, maybe it was an Anshau Komet, that
had several available mounting points for the axle, which in theory
should make shifting the axle around a bit less complicated. My Swan
has no such arrangement and any axle shifting would be all of my
problem.

While the V-6 Honda Accord was a great car, but a poor tow car for my
particular trailer, it was probably time to trade it in anyway. It
had almost 210,000 miles on it. Not nearly as many as my old '88
Accord with 396,000 miles on it when an errant driver going the
opposite direction decided to turn in front of me. That idiot's move
totalled out the old blue Honda. And I'm still ****ed seven years
after the wreck!

Oh, and not only is the Subaru rated to tow the trailer, it has all
wheel drive, in case I need help getting out of a cow pasture, and a
bit more ground clearance than the Accord, again better suited for
driving over rather than through the cow pies.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

On Oct 30, 11:06*am, John Smith > wrote:
> rlovinggood wrote:
> > lbs with a 100 lb max tongue weight. *Turns out that 180 lb tongue
> > weight of the new trailer came very close to ripping the hitch off of
>
> This is ridiculous. There's no reason to have a tongue weight of more
> than about 30 to 40 pounds. That you bought a new car rather than
> rebalancing the trailer is even more ridiculous.
>
> If Europeans want a faster plane, they refine the aerodynamics. If
> Americans want a faster plane, they mount a bigger engine.

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

October 30th 09, 04:22 PM

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:18:19 -0700, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

> Yes there is. Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight.
>
Is this a general recommendation for any type of trailer, or is it meant
for caravans?

The reason I'm asking is that caravans have a lot of frontal area mounted
high up and a short wheel-hitch distance, while a glider trailer has a
smaller frontal area, often mostly hidden behind the tow vehicle and at
least twice the wheel-hitch distance. Pull the caravan at highway speeds
and you'll have a significant reduction in load on the hitch, while the
glider trailer's load reduction will be very much smaller, especially if
the tow vehicle is an estate or station wagon of some sort.

Data point: I tow a Libelle in a small cross section home-built box
trailer using a 2.0 litre automatic Focus estate. The hitch load from
this trailer is low - its easy to support the front of the trailer with
one hand while hoicking up the dolly wheel with the other so the hitch
can be dropped onto the ball. I haven't measured it, but I'd be surprised
of the hitch load is more than 20-25 lbs, yet this trailer tows
beautifully up to 70 mph. There's no sway, even when passing trailer
trucks in a cross wind. Fuel consumption is normally 34-35 mpg thanks to
the slush pump and drops to 29-30 with the trailer. One reason for
choosing an estate was that the rear springs are much stiffer then those
on a Focus car.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

October 30th 09, 04:40 PM

On Oct 30, 12:22*pm, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:18:19 -0700, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
> > Yes there is. *Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight.
>
> Is this a general recommendation for any type of trailer, or is it meant
> for caravans?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that caravans have a lot of frontal area mounted
> high up and a short wheel-hitch distance, while a glider trailer has a
> smaller frontal area, often mostly hidden behind the tow vehicle and at
> least twice the wheel-hitch distance. Pull the caravan at highway speeds
> and you'll have a significant reduction in load on the hitch, while the
> glider trailer's load reduction will be very much smaller, especially if
> the tow vehicle is an estate or station wagon of some sort.
>
> Data point: I tow a Libelle in a small cross section home-built box
> trailer using a 2.0 litre automatic Focus estate. The hitch load from
> this trailer is low - its easy to support the front of the trailer with
> one hand while hoicking up the dolly wheel with the other so the hitch
> can be dropped onto the ball. I haven't measured it, but I'd be surprised
> of the hitch load is more than 20-25 lbs, yet this trailer tows
> beautifully up to 70 mph. There's no sway, even when passing trailer
> trucks in a cross wind. Fuel consumption is normally 34-35 mpg thanks to
> the slush pump and drops to 29-30 with the trailer. One reason for
> choosing an estate was that the rear springs are much stiffer then those
> on a Focus car.
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * *

My experience is that a Cobra or Komet type with std or 15m glider in
it needs 100 - 150 # on the tongue to be stable at 70 mph.

Clearly, if you average 29+ mpg towing, you are traveling closer to 50
than 70 mph, as a rule. Either that or our US cars are even more
gruesomely strangled by our EPA than I realized.

Here in the states... and 31 of our states individually are bigger
than England... it's necessary to maintain 65 - 70 mph to avoid being
a traffic bottleneck. Furthermore, we have these huge long steep
grades in many places -- Virginia/North Carolina, Pennsylvania,
Colorado and California all come immediately to mind -- and on the
downhill stretches it is common to get passed by trucks going well
over 80 mph. This is no time to find out you are marginal on
stability.... A Cobra trailer with 40 lbs on the tongue will surely
have you in the ditch.

Many are the days I wish we had gliding clubs walking distance apart
as you do....

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Uncle Fuzzy

October 30th 09, 04:44 PM

On Oct 30, 9:22*am, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:18:19 -0700, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
> > Yes there is. *Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight.
>
> Is this a general recommendation for any type of trailer, or is it meant
> for caravans?
>
> The reason I'm asking is that caravans have a lot of frontal area mounted
> high up and a short wheel-hitch distance, while a glider trailer has a
> smaller frontal area, often mostly hidden behind the tow vehicle and at
> least twice the wheel-hitch distance. Pull the caravan at highway speeds
> and you'll have a significant reduction in load on the hitch, while the
> glider trailer's load reduction will be very much smaller, especially if
> the tow vehicle is an estate or station wagon of some sort.
>
> Data point: I tow a Libelle in a small cross section home-built box
> trailer using a 2.0 litre automatic Focus estate. The hitch load from
> this trailer is low - its easy to support the front of the trailer with
> one hand while hoicking up the dolly wheel with the other so the hitch
> can be dropped onto the ball. I haven't measured it, but I'd be surprised
> of the hitch load is more than 20-25 lbs, yet this trailer tows
> beautifully up to 70 mph. There's no sway, even when passing trailer
> trucks in a cross wind. Fuel consumption is normally 34-35 mpg thanks to
> the slush pump and drops to 29-30 with the trailer. One reason for
> choosing an estate was that the rear springs are much stiffer then those
> on a Focus car.
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |

The 10% figure came from on-line searches, and calls to a couple
trailer shops. The information was for trailers in general, though at
the time I was helping a friend with an uncooperative boat trailer. My
experience is quite limited, but between two otherwise nearly
identical Komet trailers, (both towed behind my ridiculously large
truck) the one with the higher tongue weight was vastly more stable.

Papa3

October 30th 09, 06:13 PM

On Oct 29, 9:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
> reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
> work.
>
> So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
> trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
> the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
> tear up the transmission.
>
> I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.
>
> Thanks, Ryan

Related to this, the new model year Outback looks like just the
ticket. My neighbor just brought one home, and it's definitely
looking even better than the prior model years. It now rides a bit
higher - just the thing for the occasional off-field retrieve. Also,
wheelbase is longer while the rear overhang is shorter.

I currently tow with a V6 powered VW Passat wagon with the 4motion
transmission. Great tow vehicle. The Subaru looks even better.
I may get the V6, as the difference in mileage in highway driving
(most of my driving) is marginal.

P3

Martin Gregorie[_5_]

October 30th 09, 06:31 PM

On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 09:40:48 -0700, T8 wrote:

> My experience is that a Cobra or Komet type with std or 15m glider in it
> needs 100 - 150 # on the tongue to be stable at 70 mph.
>
Fair comment. Some trailers are less stable than others and I was
forgetting that the Komet our club Pegase lives in is a lot less stable
than my box type, despite having 2-3 times more tongue weight.

> Clearly, if you average 29+ mpg towing, you are traveling closer to 50
> than 70 mph, as a rule. Either that or our US cars are even more
> gruesomely strangled by our EPA than I realized.
>
That's Imperial gallons. IIRC a US gallon is 0.8 Imperial gallons, so
that becomes around 24 mpg US. My speedometer does read 3-4 mph fast
according to my satnav, so I try to keep my motorway speed between 60-65
indicated. As others have said, the towing limit is 60 vs 70 for
unencumbered cars.

> Furthermore, we have these huge long steep grades
> in many places -- Virginia/North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Colorado and
> California all come immediately to mind -- and on the downhill stretches
> it is common to get passed by trucks going well over 80 mph.
>
Tell me about it! I've driven Denver-Sacramento via Salinas, St. George,
Las Vegas and Bakersfield and Sacramento-Denver via Tahoe, Minden, Salt
Lake City and Cheyenne in a 4 cylinder automatic Toyota and, even without
a trailer, it really didn't like the grades over the Rockies. I can't
imagine who would think that designing a 4 speed automatic box that could
only be locked in 1st and 2nd but not 3rd was a good idea, but there you
go.

> Many are the days I wish we had gliding clubs walking distance apart as
> you do....
>
Come over and enjoy our summer soaring weather any time!

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Craig[_2_]

October 30th 09, 06:33 PM

On Oct 30, 7:19*am, Bob > wrote:
> I have a question, are glider trailers rated to tow above 60MPH. In
> Europe where most of the trailers are made (I think) the max speed for
> a trailer is 60mph /100kph. Just wondering as I see all kinds of
> clames that people are towing faster than this. Would this be an
> insurance problem if you had an accident and were going faster than
> the trailer is rated? Just wondering.
>
> Bob (waiting for the wave)

Not sure about the insurance thing, but the 100 kph tow speed limit
does explain why most in Europe profess their trailers tow just fine.
I tow a larger Komet trailer with a 3.0L Toyota Sienna and all is well
up to 65mph (105 kph). At 70 it's managable, but requires attention.
At 75 (120 kph) it's a real handful. I guess we're a bit spoiled, but
covering long distances at 60 mph is tedious at best & I'm awfully
tempted to modify my trailer to tow better at higher speeds.

Craig

John Smith

October 30th 09, 06:43 PM

Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
> Yes there is. Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight.

For trailers up to 3.5 tons, the German law asks for 4% of the trailer
weight or 25kg, whichever is lower. Not surprisingly, the trailer
manufactorer I asked said something similiar.

brianDG303[_2_]

October 30th 09, 08:51 PM

On Oct 30, 11:13*am, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Oct 29, 9:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
>
> > Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
> > reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
> > work.
>
> > So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
> > trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
> > the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
> > tear up the transmission.
>
> > I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.
>
> > Thanks, Ryan
>
> Related to this, the new model year Outback looks like just the
> ticket. * My neighbor just brought one home, and it's definitely
> looking even better than the prior model years. *It now rides a bit
> higher - just the thing for the occasional off-field retrieve. *Also,
> wheelbase is longer while the rear overhang is shorter.
>
> I currently tow with a V6 powered VW Passat wagon with the 4motion
> transmission. * *Great tow vehicle. *The Subaru looks even better.
> I may get the V6, as the difference in mileage in highway driving
> (most of my driving) is marginal.
>
> P3

What's with the Brits these days? This is a thread, primarily by
Americans, about who well you can tow gliders with a Subaru, except
for some Brits who jump in to make fun of Americans insisting on
towing with giant SUV's. Please read the posts, we are discussing
towing with small cars not big cars.

An excellent car for towing is the smaller Volvos. I like the V40 1.9t
4cyl, it's rated for 2,000 lbs. and 200lbs. on the tongue, great fun
to drive and tows like a dream. Had a 2001 and sold it when I found a
2004 with 10K miles on it. The V50 is just a good. A little more fun
to drive than a Subaru (got one of those too) but the road clearance
can be a problem.

Brian

Bruce

October 30th 09, 09:16 PM

True Del

I towed for years with a 1600cc hatchback. BUT = having driven in both
countries I must respectfully suggest that there are considerations in
countries that are not as sea level, as flat and cool as the UK.

So - when was the last time you hooked a trailer and drove at freeway
speed (120kmh) for 700km? At 3000-5000+ MSL? with an ambient
temperature >30C .

Sure a small car can do it (I have proven that), and I agree that the
clumsy behemoths so beloved by some are a pain to drive, are appalling
tow vehicles and guzzle fuel for no utility. However, I have to say that
the comfort, stability and ease of towing behind a large 2.5l Turbo is
worth the general higher day to day cost of operation. Interestingly,
having done back to back trips in the compact, manual 1600 hatch and the
automatic 4WD Volvo - the small car actually used marginally more fuel
on the same trip, with the same trailer and driver, while being around
10% slower. On the work commute you pay in fuel consumption, but the big
car is 5 years old and so low stress that it is pretty much "as new" -
long economical life also influences total cost of ownership...

I submit that the similarly equipped Subaru would also make an excellent
choice. Adequate power, agility, stability (esp the 4WD) versions.

If I lived in the UK my tow vehicle would probably also be a 1400/1600
diesel. Where I live it is a lot less practical.

For what it is worth I averaged 10.4l/100km over the last 85000km - the
little hatch did around 9 over 250000.
Towing a streamlined single seater trailer I get 10.5-11.2 depending on
how much Drakensberg there is in the trip. The bigger unstreamlined box
for the kestrel results in slower speed and ~14l/100. The hatch was
unsafe towing this trailer at any speed above 80km/h.

Bruce

delboy wrote:
> As a Brit, I just love these US discussions about the impossibilty of
> towing glider trailers with anything that doesn't weigh at least 3
> tons, with a huge gas guzzling V8 engine. Due to our Government's
> dependence on fuel duties, which are extortionate, most of us own
> quite modest sized cars, but we still tow glider trailers around. A
> 1.6 litre vehicle will tow a single seater glider trailer perfectly
> well and 2.0 litres for a two seater trailer. It is probably best to
> keep the speed below 60 mph though (legal speed limit for trailers
> anyway in the UK) . Automatic gearboxes may need an oil cooler fitted.
>
> Derek Copeland
>
>
> On Oct 30, 12:33 pm, rlovinggood > wrote:
>> Ryan,
>>
>> I tow my glider with a 2005 Subaru Forester with the 2.5 liter four
>> cylinder, non-turbocharged gasoline engine, with 4 speed automatic
>> transmission.
>>
>> Before I found the car, I first towed my trailer with a friend's car,
>> fully loaded with glider, tail dolly, tow-out gear, wash bucket, wing
>> stand, folding chair, etc, to a truck stop and weighed the trailer on
>> the scales. Result: 2,040 lbs! A LOT heavier than I had
>> anticipated. Tongue weight is 180 lbs. That, too is a lot more than
>> anticipated. But once I knew the weight of the trailer, I knew what I
>> had to look for in a tow vehicle. Oh, by the way, the "tow vehicle"
>> was going to be my every day driver, too. So, it had to be affordable
>> to purchase and to drive. And the Subaru fit the bill.
>>
>> The Forester is rated to tow 2,400 lbs (in America. Seems to be
>> different in different countries. Lawyers at work?) if the trailer
>> has brakes. Only 1,000 lbs if the trailer doesn't have brakes. My
>> trailer, a Swan, has brakes. Max tongue weight is 200 lbs.
>>
>> While my trailer weighs less than the maximum allowable tow weight, I
>> did have an automatic transmission oil cooler installed. Necessary?
>> I don't know. But I had it installed anyway. Subaru doesn't offer an
>> auxillary transmission cooler (the stock setup routes transmission oil
>> to a section of the radiator for cooling), so I had an independant
>> transmission shop install it for me.
>>
>> Here on the east coast of USA, the Subaru tows the trailer just fine.
>> I have towed it up the steep climbs on I-77 through North Carolina,
>> Virginia and West Virginia without problems. On those climbs, I
>> pulled the transmission down to third gear and continued on at about
>> 50 mph. I've pulled it up to New Castle, VA without any problems.
>> Now, one caveat is that on all these trips, the outside temperature
>> was cool. I've never had the opportunity to tow it up through the
>> mountains on a hot day. There is a transmission temperature "idiot
>> light" that is supposed to come on when the transmission gets hot.
>> I've never seen it come on. Not really sure if that means the tranny
>> is toast once it comes on, or just saying to pull over and let it cool
>> down before preceeding on...
>>
>> Gas mileage towing varies from 20 - 22 mpg. Without the trailer, on
>> the highway, it gets about 26 mpg. As an everyday driver, it does
>> just fine. No, it's not as refined as my previous Honda Accord. It's
>> noiser in the cabin, less room, somewhat "cheaper" looking than either
>> the Accord or my wife's Hyundai Sonata. But here's the main point:
>> It is rated to tow my trailer. Nothing else matters.
>>
>> Since it has the non-turbo engine, it burns regular ocatane gasoline.
>> Go with the turbo option, and you have to use premium gasoline. Your
>> fun factor goes up, but so does the gas bill.
>>
>> The new Outbacks can be bought, in America, with a new 3.5 liter six
>> cylinder engine and it uses regular octane gasoline. I think in the
>> previous six, you had to use premium. If you get the four cylinder, I
>> think you get a continuously variable transmission, and I don't know
>> how that would work out for towing.
>>
>> In Europe, the Forester is available with a four cylinder turbo-
>> diesel. Too bad we don't have that available in America. Not yet,
>> anyway.
>>
>> So, I can recommend a Subaru for towing your trailer.
>>
>> Ray Lovinggood
>> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>

ryanglover1969[_2_]

October 30th 09, 09:56 PM

On Oct 30, 11:13*am, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Oct 29, 9:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
>
> >Thanks so much for all the good advise. You guys have been very helpful!

Ryan Glover Std Cirrus 345G

Tim Taylor

October 30th 09, 10:18 PM

On Oct 30, 2:51*pm, brianDG303 > wrote:
> On Oct 30, 11:13*am, Papa3 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 29, 9:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
>
> > > Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
> > > reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
> > > work.
>
> > > So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
> > > trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
> > > the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
> > > tear up the transmission.
>
> > > I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.
>
> > > Thanks, Ryan
>
> > Related to this, the new model year Outback looks like just the
> > ticket. * My neighbor just brought one home, and it's definitely
> > looking even better than the prior model years. *It now rides a bit
> > higher - just the thing for the occasional off-field retrieve. *Also,
> > wheelbase is longer while the rear overhang is shorter.
>
> > I currently tow with a V6 powered VW Passat wagon with the 4motion
> > transmission. * *Great tow vehicle. *The Subaru looks even better..
> > I may get the V6, as the difference in mileage in highway driving
> > (most of my driving) is marginal.
>
> > P3
>
> What's with the Brits these days? This is a thread, primarily by
> Americans, about who well you can tow gliders with a Subaru, except
> for some Brits who jump in to make fun of Americans insisting on
> towing with giant SUV's. Please read the posts, we are discussing
> towing with small cars not big cars.
>
> An excellent car for towing is the smaller Volvos. I like the V40 1.9t
> 4cyl, it's rated for 2,000 lbs. and 200lbs. on the tongue, great fun
> to drive and tows like a dream. Had a 2001 and sold it when I found a
> 2004 with 10K miles on it. The V50 is just a good. A little more fun
> to drive than a Subaru (got one of those too) but the road clearance
> can be a problem.
>
> Brian

All through grad school and many years beyond I towed with a Volvo 240
with a 4 cylinder engine, was great except for the trips over the
Sierras to Minden and Truckee from California.

James D'Andrea[_2_]

October 30th 09, 11:02 PM

One thing no one has mentioned is that the 2010 Outbacks with 4 cyls
are now matted to a CVT. It is unclear how reliable this new tranny is
since it doesn't have an established track record. The Subaru turbo
diesel sold in Europe has a traditional geared tranny presumably
because CVTs are not as capable of handling torque. The Outback CVT
comes with a "gear shifting" mechanism that might help with towing
since the CVT is optimized for gas mileage.

October 31st 09, 02:15 AM

I had no problems towing the club trailer with the LS-4 in it at up to
"almost 90" in passing mode.
Towing with 07 Toyota Tundra 2W Drive, 5.7L V8 Auto

"Uncle Fuzzy" > wrote in message
...
On Oct 30, 8:06 am, John Smith > wrote:
> rlovinggood wrote:
> > lbs with a 100 lb max tongue weight. Turns out that 180 lb tongue
> > weight of the new trailer came very close to ripping the hitch off of
>
> This is ridiculous. There's no reason to have a tongue weight of more
> than about 30 to 40 pounds. That you bought a new car rather than
> rebalancing the trailer is even more ridiculous.
>
> If Europeans want a faster plane, they refine the aerodynamics. If
> Americans want a faster plane, they mount a bigger engine.

Yes there is. Recommended tongue weight is 10% of trailer weight. My
Komet trailer is almost exactly that. Our club Komet with the LS-4 in
it has, as you stated, about 30-50 pounds tongue weight. My trailer
is stable to well over 75 mph. The LS-4 trailer can get very ugly
around/above 65. Of course, it's not a problem if you're willing to
keep the speed down.

rlovinggood

October 31st 09, 03:16 AM

On Oct 30, 7:02*pm, "James D'Andrea" >
wrote:
> One thing no one has mentioned is that the 2010 Outbacks with 4 cyls
> are now matted to a CVT. It is unclear how reliable this new tranny is
> since it doesn't have an established track record. The Subaru turbo
> diesel sold in Europe has a traditional geared tranny presumably
> because CVTs are not as capable of handling torque. *The Outback CVT
> comes with a "gear shifting" mechanism that might help with towing
> since the CVT is optimized for gas mileage.

James,

Yes, I mentioned the CVT in an earlier post.

Ray

delboy

October 31st 09, 09:18 AM

Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.

To get good towing stability:

1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.

2) Make sure that the trailer tyres are correctly inflated, and
increase the rear tyre pressures of the towing vehicle by 5 psi.

3) Fit a stabiliser bar.

You should then be able to tow at up to about 70mph, even with a
relatively small car.

Derek Copeland

On Oct 30, 9:16*pm, Bruce > wrote:
> True Del
>
> I towed for years with a 1600cc hatchback. BUT = having driven in both
> countries I must respectfully suggest that there are considerations in
> countries that are not as sea level, as flat and cool as the UK.
>
> So - when was the last time you hooked a trailer and drove at freeway
> speed (120kmh) for 700km? At 3000-5000+ MSL? *with an ambient
> temperature >30C .
>
> Sure a small car can do it (I have proven that), and I agree that the
> clumsy behemoths so beloved by some are a pain to drive, are appalling
> tow vehicles and guzzle fuel for no utility. However, I have to say that
> the comfort, stability and ease of towing behind a large 2.5l Turbo is
> worth the general higher day to day cost of operation. Interestingly,
> having done back to back trips in the compact, manual 1600 hatch and the
> automatic 4WD Volvo - the small car actually used marginally more fuel
> on the same trip, with the same trailer and driver, while being around
> 10% slower. On the work commute you pay in fuel consumption, but the big
> car is 5 years old and so low stress that it is pretty much "as new" -
> long economical life also influences total cost of ownership...
>
> I submit that the similarly equipped Subaru would also make an excellent
> choice. Adequate power, agility, stability (esp the 4WD) versions.
>
> If I lived in the UK my tow vehicle would probably also be a 1400/1600
> diesel. Where I live it is a lot less practical.
>
> For what it is worth I averaged 10.4l/100km over the last 85000km - the
> little hatch did around 9 over 250000.
> Towing a streamlined single seater trailer I get 10.5-11.2 depending on
> how much Drakensberg there is in the trip. The bigger unstreamlined box
> for the kestrel results in slower speed and ~14l/100. The hatch was
> unsafe towing this trailer at any speed above 80km/h.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> delboy wrote:
> > As a Brit, I just love these US discussions about the impossibilty of
> > towing glider trailers with anything that doesn't weigh at least 3
> > tons, with a huge gas guzzling V8 engine. Due to our Government's
> > dependence on fuel duties, which are extortionate, most of us own
> > quite modest sized cars, but we still tow glider trailers around. A
> > 1.6 litre vehicle will tow a single seater glider trailer perfectly
> > well and 2.0 litres for a two seater trailer. It is probably best to
> > keep the speed below 60 mph though (legal speed limit for trailers
> > anyway in the UK) . Automatic gearboxes may need an oil cooler fitted.
>
> > Derek Copeland
>
> > On Oct 30, 12:33 pm, rlovinggood > wrote:
> >> Ryan,
>
> >> I tow my glider with a 2005 Subaru Forester with the 2.5 liter four
> >> cylinder, non-turbocharged gasoline engine, with 4 speed automatic
> >> transmission.
>
> >> Before I found the car, I first towed my trailer with a friend's car,
> >> fully loaded with glider, tail dolly, tow-out gear, wash bucket, wing
> >> stand, folding chair, etc, to a truck stop and weighed the trailer on
> >> the scales. *Result: *2,040 lbs! *A LOT heavier than I had
> >> anticipated. *Tongue weight is 180 lbs. *That, too is a lot more than
> >> anticipated. *But once I knew the weight of the trailer, I knew what I
> >> had to look for in a tow vehicle. *Oh, by the way, the "tow vehicle"
> >> was going to be my every day driver, too. *So, it had to be affordable
> >> to purchase and to drive. *And the Subaru fit the bill.
>
> >> The Forester is rated to tow 2,400 lbs (in America. *Seems to be
> >> different in different countries. *Lawyers at work?) if the trailer
> >> has brakes. *Only 1,000 lbs if the trailer doesn't have brakes. *My
> >> trailer, a Swan, has brakes. *Max tongue weight is 200 lbs.
>
> >> While my trailer weighs less than the maximum allowable tow weight, I
> >> did have an automatic transmission oil cooler installed. *Necessary?
> >> I don't know. *But I had it installed anyway. *Subaru doesn't offer an
> >> auxillary transmission cooler (the stock setup routes transmission oil
> >> to a section of the radiator for cooling), so I had an independant
> >> transmission shop install it for me.
>
> >> Here on the east coast of USA, the Subaru tows the trailer just fine.
> >> I have towed it up the steep climbs on I-77 through North Carolina,
> >> Virginia and West Virginia without problems. *On those climbs, I
> >> pulled the transmission down to third gear and continued on at about
> >> 50 mph. *I've pulled it up to New Castle, VA without any problems.
> >> Now, one caveat is that on all these trips, the outside temperature
> >> was cool. *I've never had the opportunity to tow it up through the
> >> mountains on a hot day. *There is a transmission temperature "idiot
> >> light" that is supposed to come on when the transmission gets hot.
> >> I've never seen it come on. *Not really sure if that means the tranny
> >> is toast once it comes on, or just saying to pull over and let it cool
> >> down before preceeding on...
>
> >> Gas mileage towing varies from 20 - 22 mpg. *Without the trailer, on
> >> the highway, it gets about 26 mpg. *As an everyday driver, it does
> >> just fine. *No, it's not as refined as my previous Honda Accord. *It's
> >> noiser in the cabin, less room, somewhat "cheaper" looking than either
> >> the Accord or my wife's Hyundai Sonata. *But here's the main point:
> >> It is rated to tow my trailer. *Nothing else matters.
>
> >> Since it has the non-turbo engine, it burns regular ocatane gasoline.
> >> Go with the turbo option, and you have to use premium gasoline. *Your
> >> fun factor goes up, but so does the gas bill.
>
> >> The new Outbacks can be bought, in America, with a new 3.5 liter six
> >> cylinder engine and it uses regular octane gasoline. *I think in the
> >> previous six, you had to use premium. *If you get the four cylinder, I
> >> think you get a continuously variable transmission, and I don't know
> >> how that would work out for towing.
>
> >> In Europe, the Forester is available with a four cylinder turbo-
> >> diesel. *Too bad we don't have that available in America. *Not yet,
> >> anyway.
>
> >> So, I can recommend a Subaru for towing your trailer.
>
> >> Ray Lovinggood
> >> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

October 31st 09, 12:11 PM

On Oct 31, 5:18*am, delboy > wrote:

>
> To get good towing stability:
>
> 1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.
>

Del: what part of "this has been proven dangerously inadequate in
many cases" don't you get?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

delboy

October 31st 09, 01:31 PM

You need some noseweight, but you are often limited by the maximum
download on the hitch, as modern vehicles don't seem to have much
metal structure at the back. Also if you put too download on the hitch
it tends to lift the front wheels (you know, the ones you steer with)
off the ground. I have alway found that 40 - 60 lbs is fine, as long
as you take the other precautions I mentioned.

Derek Copeland

On Oct 31, 12:11*pm, T8 > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 5:18*am, delboy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > To get good towing stability:
>
> > 1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.
>
> Del: *what part of *"this has been proven dangerously inadequate in
> many cases" don't you get?
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

Frank Whiteley

October 31st 09, 04:15 PM

On Oct 31, 3:18*am, delboy > wrote:
> Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
> England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
> steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
> really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
> litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
> that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.
>
> To get good towing stability:
>
> 1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.
>
> 2) Make sure that the trailer tyres are correctly inflated, and
> increase the rear tyre pressures of the towing vehicle by 5 psi.
>
> 3) Fit a stabiliser bar.
>
> You should then be able to tow at up to about 70mph, even with a
> relatively small car.
>
> Derek Copeland

I've towed a 37 foot glider trailer to Aboyne and to the Mynd with a
1600cc Ford Cortina MkIII Estate car manual transmission at 65-70mph
on M and A dual carriage ways. The country lane to the Mynd was
single lane in places and second gear at best, at least approaching
from the east, which is the grade I think you're referencing. Google
Earth seems to indicate that's still the case. I've also towed two
other 37ft glider trailers with a SAAB 900, with a rated towing weight
of 3300lb.
In both cases, some additional weight on the rear wheels was useful.
I also towed with a Rover SD1 for a short while. Not a good tow
vehicle in my opinion. The Cortina rear wheels drifted once on wet
pavement on an A11 roundabout on the way to Aboyne, but recovered just
fine. I jackknifed the SAAB 900 on the A41 just east of Bicester,
largely due to no fuel in the tank and no tools in the boot. I later
added a stabilizer, but this is really just admitting that the system
of the small tow vehicle and large trailer is actually unstable.

Back in the US, I've opted for the larger tow vehicle because I have
large trailers. I also like 4WD because I sometimes move a glider and
trailer in winter weather (Sep-Apr), and I like to carry enough kit to
effect expedient repairs (it can be over 100 miles between fuel
stations in the US west). Power and engine braking is useful on 5 and
10 miles 6% and 8% grades that may exceed 10,000ft msl. On the down
side, the OD gearing is a bit tall, to increase economy, but results
on 3rd gear downshifts at posted limits of 70 or 75mph on moderate
grades. At 85mph it stays in OD and the mileage is actually better,
but the fines are higher. The best medium sized tow vehicle (which
has grown) for 15m that I've driven is the Honda Pilot, but I didn't
like the seating comfort. Performance and economy are very good. I'm
sure many are comparable.

The small displacement, fuel injected, lightweight vehicles do work
fine in some environments, but may not be so good in harsh
environments. This was pointed out on a trip to Santa Barbara/
Pasadena with a soaring friend. Once we passed Parowan in Utah, he
said we'd start to see a lot of burn patches on the Interstate all the
way to Los Angeles. He said these were generally the smaller FI cars
that developed high pressure fuel leaks and burst into flames. Sure
enough, soon we were seeing scorched asphalt an burn patches on the
concrete. As we passed through St George, the local fire crew was
putting out such a fire. When it happens miles out in the desert, the
cars generally burn completely. This road, of course, passes through
Las Vegas. It's often extremely hot and people drive fast. The other
frequent happening is the single car accident. Sure enough, we soon
found a medium sized SUV on its top in the median. Alcohol or falling
asleep are the main reasons. It's a very high volume stretch of
highway in a very harsh environment and the number of car fire patches
was truly amazing. Air temps approach 50C and who knows how hot the
pavement gets.

Simply a case of the right tool for the right job.

Frank Whiteley

Burt Compton - Marfa

October 31st 09, 04:22 PM

On Oct 30, 1:33*pm, Craig > wrote:
> On Oct 30, 7:19*am, Bob > wrote:
>
> > I have a question, are glider trailers rated to tow above 60MPH. In
> > Europe where most of the trailers are made (I think) the max speed for
> > a trailer is 60mph /100kph. Just wondering as I see all kinds of
> > clames that people are towing faster than this. Would this be an
> > insurance problem if you had an accident and were going faster than
> > the trailer is rated? Just wondering.
>
> > Bob (waiting for the wave)
>
> Not sure about the insurance thing, but the 100 kph tow speed limit
> does explain why most in Europe profess their trailers tow just fine.
> I tow a larger Komet trailer with a 3.0L Toyota Sienna and all is well
> up to 65mph (105 kph). At 70 it's managable, but requires attention.
> At 75 (120 kph) it's a real handful. I guess we're a bit spoiled, but
> covering long distances at 60 mph is tedious at best & I'm awfully
> tempted to modify my trailer to tow better at higher speeds.
>
> Craig

What's the hurry? I tow my glider trailers (DG-1000 in a Cobra /
ASK-13 in a Swan / Cirrus in an Eberle trailer) long distances to/from
Marfa, west Texas (USA) at no more than 60 mph behind my 2001 Ford Van
(6 cylinder). Why risk damaging a glider by driving at higher
speeds? At slower speeds you can maneuver around potholes, junk in
the road, wayward critters, or manage a blowout better. I've been
towing glider trailers at 60 mph across the USA for decades. No
problems, yet.

The Germans must know something if they limit glider trailers to 100
km/h (62 mph), while also driving their well-tuned cars without
trailers much faster on their Autobahns.

So put in a long day and get there with a lot less stress and fatigue
on glider, driver and tow vehicle. I find that driving off the US
Interstates the "blue" roads are often smoother, less traffic passing
you and the scenery is great, with small-town diners, tractors in
fields, cool junkyards, vintage "motorcourt" motels -- classic
Americana! Listen to audiobooks and your favorite CD's if you find
60 mph "tedious".

I also get a bit better gas mileage for my Ford van as the glider
trailer creates an aerodynamically favorable "after body" behind the
big van.

Start early, slow down, save gas, enjoy the trip, keep our trailer /
gilder insurance premiums from being raised because of highway
accidents due to "get-there-i-tis".

Burt -- just easin' on down the road . . .

bildan

October 31st 09, 06:29 PM

On Oct 31, 10:22*am, Burt Compton - Marfa > wrote:
> On Oct 30, 1:33*pm, Craig > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 30, 7:19*am, Bob > wrote:
>
> > > I have a question, are glider trailers rated to tow above 60MPH. In
> > > Europe where most of the trailers are made (I think) the max speed for
> > > a trailer is 60mph /100kph. Just wondering as I see all kinds of
> > > clames that people are towing faster than this. Would this be an
> > > insurance problem if you had an accident and were going faster than
> > > the trailer is rated? Just wondering.
>
> > > Bob (waiting for the wave)
>
> > Not sure about the insurance thing, but the 100 kph tow speed limit
> > does explain why most in Europe profess their trailers tow just fine.
> > I tow a larger Komet trailer with a 3.0L Toyota Sienna and all is well
> > up to 65mph (105 kph). At 70 it's managable, but requires attention.
> > At 75 (120 kph) it's a real handful. I guess we're a bit spoiled, but
> > covering long distances at 60 mph is tedious at best & I'm awfully
> > tempted to modify my trailer to tow better at higher speeds.
>
> > Craig
>
> What's the hurry? *I tow my glider trailers (DG-1000 in a Cobra /
> ASK-13 in a Swan / Cirrus in an Eberle trailer) long distances to/from
> Marfa, west Texas (USA) at no more than 60 mph behind my 2001 Ford Van
> (6 cylinder). *Why risk damaging a glider by driving at higher
> speeds? *At slower speeds you can maneuver around potholes, junk in
> the road, wayward critters, or manage a blowout better. *I've been
> towing glider trailers at 60 mph across the USA for decades. No
> problems, yet.
>
> The Germans must know something if they limit glider trailers to 100
> km/h (62 mph), while also driving their well-tuned cars without
> trailers much faster on their Autobahns.
>
> So put in a long day and get there with a lot less stress and fatigue
> on glider, driver and tow vehicle. *I find that driving off the US
> Interstates the "blue" roads are often smoother, less traffic passing
> you and the scenery is great, with small-town diners, tractors in
> fields, cool junkyards, vintage "motorcourt" motels -- classic
> Americana! * *Listen to audiobooks and your favorite CD's if you find
> 60 mph "tedious".
>
> I also get a bit better gas mileage for my Ford van as the glider
> trailer creates an aerodynamically favorable "after body" behind the
> big van.
>
> Start early, slow down, save gas, enjoy the trip, keep our trailer /
> gilder insurance premiums from being raised because of highway
> accidents due to "get-there-i-tis".
>
> Burt -- *just easin' on down the road . . .

Good advice, Burt.

If you plot fuel consumption vs. speed (MPG vs. MPH) you get a curve
that looks like a sailplane polar. Pretty much regardless of the
vehicle, the peak MPH is around 45 MPH. It drops off very sharply
below 45 and somewhat more slowly above 45. If you have an automatic
transmission with a locking torque converter, best MPG is just above
the speed where the TC locks up - approximately 43 MPH.

61 MPH (100 KPH) is a reasonable compromise between speed and economy.

What Frank says about the western US is correct. The steep 7% grades
on Interstate 15 between Las Vegas and Barstow are in Death Valley
where 130F (54C) temperatures are not uncommon. Pulling a trailer up
the Baker Grade has doomed many small cars. Imagine what the under-
hood temperatures are. If you break down and aren't rescued quickly,
your survival may depend on how much water you have.

I tried towing a 1-26 on open trailer along that route with a '59
Volvo PV-544. The little 1800cc sedan was great in the cool coastal
climate but in the desert it was a deathtrap. It only took once to
learn my lesson. My next car had a V8 and air conditioning.

Eric Greenwell

November 1st 09, 02:19 AM

delboy wrote:
> Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
> England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
> steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
> really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
> litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
> that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.
>
> To get good towing stability:
>
> 1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.
>
> 2) Make sure that the trailer tyres are correctly inflated, and
> increase the rear tyre pressures of the towing vehicle by 5 psi.
>
> 3) Fit a stabiliser bar.
Please describe a stabiliser bar. In the USA, there are several types.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Frank Whiteley

November 1st 09, 03:41 AM

On Oct 31, 8:19*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> delboy wrote:
> > Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
> > England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
> > steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
> > really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
> > litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
> > that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.
>
> > To get good towing stability:
>
> > 1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.
>
> > 2) Make sure that the trailer tyres are correctly inflated, and
> > increase the rear tyre pressures of the towing vehicle by 5 psi.
>
> > 3) Fit a stabiliser bar.
>
> Please describe a stabiliser bar. In the USA, there are several types.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> * Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> * "Transponders in Sailplanes"http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
> * ** Sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more
>
> * "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org

Probably better described as an anti-sway bar. I couldn't find a web
site for the type I had.

Most involved some kind of friction or dampening.

This image link shows the basic design principle.

http://www.title-3.com/images/SwayBar.jpg

Frank Whiteley

delboy

November 1st 09, 12:46 PM

Two of the three towing vehicles you mention below are rear wheel
drive. Unless you own a BMW or a Porche or a permanent AWD, most
modern European cars are now front wheel drive. Too much hitch weight
will just reduce traction (and steering authority).

I approach the Mynd by a road called the Burway that leads up from
Church Stretton. The approach road from the south at Asterton is even
steeper (1 in3) and is not recommended for towing trailers up.

Actually one of the trailers I tow quite regularly is a four wheel
Cobra Trailer containing a K21. This has no noseweight at all, unless
you put all the trestles and other bits of kit in the front and even
then it's not much. Nevertheless for its size and weight it tows very
well, probably because it is fitted with an Alko friction hitch.

I would like a SUV for towing out of muddy fields etc, but they cost a
lot to run (due to the extortionate cost of fuel in the UK) and
insure, and make you a social pariah in our politically correct New
Labour country. Never have a socialist government!

Derek Copeland

On Oct 31, 4:15*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Oct 31, 3:18*am, delboy > wrote:
>
> > Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
> > England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
> > steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
> > really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
> > litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
> > that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.
>
> > To get good towing stability:
>
> > 1) Make sure that have about 40 lbs of nose weight.
>
> > 2) Make sure that the trailer tyres are correctly inflated, and
> > increase the rear tyre pressures of the towing vehicle by 5 psi.
>
> > 3) Fit a stabiliser bar.
>
> > You should then be able to tow at up to about 70mph, even with a
> > relatively small car.
>
> > Derek Copeland
>
> I've towed a 37 foot glider trailer to Aboyne and to the Mynd with a
> 1600cc Ford Cortina MkIII Estate car manual transmission at 65-70mph
> on M and A dual carriage ways. *The country lane to the Mynd was
> single lane in places and second gear at best, at least approaching
> from the east, which is the grade I think you're referencing. *Google
> Earth seems to indicate that's still the case. *I've also towed two
> other 37ft glider trailers with a SAAB 900, with a rated towing weight
> of 3300lb.
> In both cases, some additional weight on the rear wheels was useful.
> I also towed with a Rover SD1 for a short while. *Not a good tow
> vehicle in my opinion. *The Cortina rear wheels drifted once on wet
> pavement on an A11 roundabout on the way to Aboyne, but recovered just
> fine. *I jackknifed the SAAB 900 on the A41 just east of Bicester,
> largely due to no fuel in the tank and no tools in the boot. *I later
> added a stabilizer, but this is really just admitting that the system
> of the small tow vehicle and large trailer is actually unstable.
>
> Back in the US, I've opted for the larger tow vehicle because I have
> large trailers. *I also like 4WD because I sometimes move a glider and
> trailer in winter weather (Sep-Apr), and I like to carry enough kit to
> effect expedient repairs (it can be over 100 miles between fuel
> stations in the US west). *Power and engine braking is useful on 5 and
> 10 miles 6% and 8% grades that may exceed 10,000ft msl. *On the down
> side, the OD gearing is a bit tall, to increase economy, but results
> on 3rd gear downshifts at posted limits of 70 or 75mph on moderate
> grades. *At 85mph it stays in OD and the mileage is actually better,
> but the fines are higher. *The best medium sized tow vehicle (which
> has grown) for 15m that I've driven is the Honda Pilot, but I didn't
> like the seating comfort. *Performance and economy are very good. *I'm
> sure many are comparable.
>
> The small displacement, fuel injected, lightweight vehicles do work
> fine in some environments, but may not be so good in harsh
> environments. *This was pointed out on a trip to Santa Barbara/
> Pasadena with a soaring friend. *Once we passed Parowan in Utah, he
> said we'd start to see a lot of burn patches on the Interstate all the
> way to Los Angeles. *He said these were generally the smaller FI cars
> that developed high pressure fuel leaks and burst into flames. *Sure
> enough, soon we were seeing scorched asphalt an burn patches on the
> concrete. *As we passed through St George, the local fire crew was
> putting out such a fire. *When it happens miles out in the desert, the
> cars generally burn completely. *This road, of course, passes through
> Las Vegas. *It's often extremely hot and people drive fast. *The other
> frequent happening is the single car accident. *Sure enough, we soon
> found a medium sized SUV on its top in the median. *Alcohol or falling
> asleep are the main reasons. *It's a very high volume stretch of
> highway in a very harsh environment and the number of car fire patches
> was truly amazing. *Air temps approach 50C and who knows how hot the
> pavement gets.
>
> Simply a case of the right tool for the right job.
>
> Frank Whiteley- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Bruce

November 1st 09, 05:15 PM

I have driven in the Welsh hills. And yes they are steep in places and
the roads are certainly narrow and circuitous. Ideal place to have a
smaller car. However, their highest peak would be subterranean where
this conversation is discussing.

Try the "peak to peak" drive in Colorado,
(http://www.coloradodirectory.com/maps/peak.html)

I tried this in a 1600 Mazda, there were patches where I could not get
out of second, and I was alone in the car, no trailer. High altitude and
steep inclines demand a little more. Either a turbocharger to get some
power back, or lots more power in the first place.

Try the roads to Bloemfontein, 4458 feet MSL, Johannesburg is 480km away
and 5100 feet - summer temperatures average high is 30 Celsius (38 max)
and the roads are two lane freeway, straight as a die for many, many
kilometres on end.

The local build models all have uprated cooling, and drivetrain changes
to suit the sustained high speed running in the heat they get exposed
to, and tend to be the higher power spec. Direct imports occasionally
self ignite, particularly those from places less known for their
original engineering...

Then there Australia - up to 45 Celsius on a bad day. Never been outside
Sydney, myself but the figures speak for themselves. OK - the speeds are
a lot saner there, given that they actually police speed limits
effectively.

Very different challenges from the European roads.

For the soaring side - both locations have excellent soaring - Black
forest in Boulder, and Soaring Safaris in Bloemfontein.

So, the ideal vehicle might vary depending on what the roads are like,
and what the driving is like on the roads...

delboy wrote:
> Not all of the UK is flat and our annual trip from Lasham in Southern
> England to Aboyne in Scotland is 540 miles (860 k) over some quite
> steep climbs. A number of hilltop sites involve an approach via a
> really steep incline, e.g 1 in 3.5 to get to the Long Mynd. My 1.6
> litre turbo diesel Citroen Estate pulled a K21 in a Cobra trailer up
> that without any difficulty. We do get 30C sometimes in the summer.
>
> To get good towing stability:
>

Eric Greenwell

November 1st 09, 10:39 PM

delboy wrote:
> Actually one of the trailers I tow quite regularly is a four wheel
> Cobra Trailer containing a K21. This has no noseweight at all, unless
> you put all the trestles and other bits of kit in the front and even
> then it's not much. Nevertheless for its size and weight it tows very
> well, probably because it is fitted with an Alko friction hitch.
>
The double axle is important, too. My guess is it would tow just as well
without the friction hitch. Has anyone tried that experiment?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

jsbrake

November 2nd 09, 01:52 AM

I think there would be a problem with the anti-sway bar if the trailer
has surge brakes. The anti-sway is friction controlled fore/aft, and
the surge brake engages when pushed -- isn't that conflicting with the
anti-sway?

If you have electric (or no) brakes, then the anti-sway bar should be
great.
..

Frank Whiteley

November 2nd 09, 02:33 AM

On Nov 1, 6:52*pm, jsbrake > wrote:
> I think there would be a problem with the anti-sway bar if the trailer
> has surge brakes. *The anti-sway is friction controlled fore/aft, and
> the surge brake engages when pushed -- isn't that conflicting with the
> anti-sway?
>
> If you have electric (or no) brakes, then the anti-sway bar should be
> great.
> .

I couldn't find a picture of the setup on mine, but it had an
adjustable friction disk on the car side and a slider for the overrun
brake on the trailer. Not quite like the image I posted previously.
The dampening action was side to side.

Frank

delboy

November 2nd 09, 07:57 AM

Link to a trailer stabiliser bar:

http://www.bulldogsecure.com/category/23/1/stabiliser

These work well and add about 10 mph to your maximum safe towing speed
by damping the tendency to sway. They do not affect the action of the
trailer brakes. The Alko friction trailer hitch also works well, but
you need a special Alko ball hitch and you must not put any grease on
it.

BTW, Several people at my gliding club have jack-knifed twin axle
trailers, so they are not a cure in themselves.

Derek Copeland

On Nov 2, 2:33*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Nov 1, 6:52*pm, jsbrake > wrote:
>
> > I think there would be a problem with the anti-sway bar if the trailer
> > has surge brakes. *The anti-sway is friction controlled fore/aft, and
> > the surge brake engages when pushed -- isn't that conflicting with the
> > anti-sway?
>
> > If you have electric (or no) brakes, then the anti-sway bar should be
> > great.
> > .
>
> I couldn't find a picture of the setup on mine, but it had an
> adjustable friction disk on the car side and a slider for the overrun
> brake on the trailer. *Not quite like the image I posted previously.
> The dampening action was side to side.
>
> Frank

Frank Whiteley

November 2nd 09, 02:53 PM

On Nov 2, 12:57*am, delboy > wrote:
> Link to a trailer stabiliser bar:
>
> http://www.bulldogsecure.com/category/23/1/stabiliser
>
> These work well and add about 10 mph to your maximum safe towing speed
> by damping the tendency to sway. They do not affect the action of the
> trailer brakes. The Alko friction trailer hitch also works well, but
> you need a special Alko ball hitch and you must not put any grease on
> it.
>
> BTW, Several people at my gliding club have jack-knifed twin axle
> trailers, so they are not a cure in themselves.
>
> Derek Copeland
>
That's the make I had on my SAAB 900. Don't recall if it was a 100 or
200.

Thanks for the link Derek.

Frank

jsbrake

November 2nd 09, 07:25 PM

This is what I had when I was towing a caravan, also using weight-
distrubition bars:
http://www.hitchesonline.com/sway.htm

It connects on the side of the "V" of the trailer tongue, about
2' (60cm) back from the ball, and then on the hitch side, about 6" (15
cm) off-side of the ball. The amount of friction can be controlled to
reduce the swaying movement of the trailer.

AGL

November 2nd 09, 11:30 PM

You can't tell my 1-35 is behind my 2000 2.5 automatic Legacy Subaru
except on VERY steep hills. A twin Grob in a Cobra is definitely
noticable, but other than being careful in crosswinds it isn't a
problem.

I tow my 1-35 with my wife's Toyota Corolla with no problems either,
but it does slow down on hills, but a lower gear takes care of it.

On Oct 29, 8:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
> reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
> work.
>
> So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
> trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
> the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
> tear up the transmission.
>
> I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.
>
> Thanks, Ryan

Bruce

November 3rd 09, 07:44 AM

Hey Burt

That about sums it up.

There are different tools for different circumstances. Lots of parts of
South Africa where a breakdown could be quite hazardous.
Lots of generally excellent freeway where the speed limit is 120, the
cambers are designed for 120 - and the 18 wheelers will ride right over
you from behind if you don't keep up. On these roads the safest is to
have a combination that is comfortable and stable at 110-120kmh.

Where safe to do so - it is a lot less stress and danger driving a
little slower and exercising a little more care. Unfortunately it is not
always possible to avoid the heavy traffic. In South Africa again, many
of the secondary roads are in appalling condition, and take you through
endless informal settlements with high traffic density of animals, kids
and alcohol fuelled pedestrians. Best to stay on the main roads where
you can. In the UK you can get giddy from all the little roundabouts on
the B roads.

I find having an appropriate combination for the circumstances works
well. Investing in some comfort and safety makes it a lot more pleasant
getting there.

The day someone manages a 500km+ drive with a glider trailer attached
with a GPS average speed over 100km/h in the UK they should let us know.

Cheers
Bruce

delboy

November 3rd 09, 09:41 AM

Come on Bruce! The UK roads are so overcrowded, poorly maintained and
ridden with roadworks that averaging over 40mph (65kph) on a long
journey is quite a feat, even without a trailer! Our recent trip from
Lasham to Aboyne took 12 hours going (although we lost two and a half
hours because of a puncture - more about that later) and 9 hours
excluding refreshment and comfort brakes. That was in a powerful
Jaguar car, not towing a trailer, and cruising at (er!) slightly over
the National Speed Limit of 70mph on the few bits of Motorway and dual
carriageway that didn't have roadworks on them.

The journey from Lasham to Aboyne is 540 miles by the route we took.
so the average speed going (excluding the puncture) was 57mph and
coming back 60mph (96.5 kph).

The delay due to the puncture was caused by:
1) The car's owner couldn't find the jacking point, so we had to call
out the AA.
2) The car only had a spacesaver spare wheel and tyre (50miles, 50mph
maximum), although there is plenty of space for a full sized wheel and
tyre in the boot (trunk to the Yanks), so we had to stop in the
nearest town to get a new tyre fitted.

Before anyone has another go at British cars, I think Jaguar was owned
by the Ford Motor Company of America at the time this one was built.

Derek Copeland

On Nov 3, 7:44*am, Bruce > wrote:
> Hey Burt
>
> That about sums it up.
>
> There are different tools for different circumstances. Lots of parts of
> South Africa where a breakdown could be quite hazardous.
> Lots of generally excellent freeway where the speed limit is 120, the
> cambers are designed for 120 - and the 18 wheelers will ride right over
> you from behind if you don't keep up. On these roads the safest is to
> have a combination that is comfortable and stable at 110-120kmh.
>
> Where safe to do so - it is a lot less stress and danger driving a
> little slower and exercising a little more care. Unfortunately it is not
> always possible to avoid the heavy traffic. In South Africa again, many
> of the secondary roads are in appalling condition, and take you through
> endless informal settlements with high traffic density of animals, kids
> and alcohol fuelled pedestrians. Best to stay on the main roads where
> you can. In the UK you can get giddy from all the little roundabouts on
> the B roads.
>
> I find having an appropriate combination for the circumstances works
> well. Investing in some comfort and safety makes it a lot more pleasant
> getting there.
>
> The day someone manages a 500km+ drive with a glider trailer attached
> with a GPS average speed over 100km/h in the UK they should let us know.
>
> Cheers
> Bruce

Larry Goddard

November 3rd 09, 05:01 PM

"Burt Compton - Marfa" > wrote in message
:

>
> What's the hurry? I tow my glider trailers (DG-1000 in a Cobra /
> ASK-13 in a Swan / Cirrus in an Eberle trailer) long distances to/from
> Marfa, west Texas (USA) at no more than 60 mph behind my 2001 Ford Van
> (6 cylinder). Why risk damaging a glider by driving at higher
> speeds? At slower speeds you can maneuver around potholes, junk in
> the road, wayward critters, or manage a blowout better. I've been
> towing glider trailers at 60 mph across the USA for decades. No
> problems, yet.
>
> The Germans must know something if they limit glider trailers to 100
> km/h (62 mph), while also driving their well-tuned cars without
> trailers much faster on their Autobahns.
>
> So put in a long day and get there with a lot less stress and fatigue
> on glider, driver and tow vehicle. I find that driving off the US
> Interstates the "blue" roads are often smoother, less traffic passing
> you and the scenery is great, with small-town diners, tractors in
> fields, cool junkyards, vintage "motorcourt" motels -- classic
> Americana! Listen to audiobooks and your favorite CD's if you find
> 60 mph "tedious".
>
> I also get a bit better gas mileage for my Ford van as the glider
> trailer creates an aerodynamically favorable "after body" behind the
> big van.
>
> Start early, slow down, save gas, enjoy the trip, keep our trailer /
> gilder insurance premiums from being raised because of highway
> accidents due to "get-there-i-tis".
>
> Burt -- just easin' on down the road . . .

C'mon Burt...

You're completely forgetting "Crosina's Law".

:-)

Larry

Eric Greenwell

November 3rd 09, 07:34 PM

delboy wrote:
> Link to a trailer stabiliser bar:
>
> http://www.bulldogsecure.com/category/23/1/stabiliser
>
> These work well and add about 10 mph to your maximum safe towing speed
> by damping the tendency to sway. They do not affect the action of the
> trailer brakes. The Alko friction trailer hitch also works well, but
> you need a special Alko ball hitch and you must not put any grease on
> it.
>
> BTW, Several people at my gliding club have jack-knifed twin axle
> trailers, so they are not a cure in themselves.
Does this suggest that towing with small cars is more problematic than
many have indicated, or a reflection on the
inexperience/ignorance/impatience of your club members?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Adam

November 4th 09, 04:01 AM

On Oct 29, 7:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
> Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
> reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
> work.
>
> So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
> trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
> the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
> tear up the transmission.
>
> I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.
>
> Thanks, Ryan

I tow with a used '99 Audi A6 Avant (wagon) quattro. The car is very
heavy and has decent brakes. It has double-wishbones on all four
corners and rides much better than a Subie (the roads up north here
are crap). The tranny is 5 speed automatic. The torque converter is
locked nearly all the time and it shifts very fast in manual or auto
mode. The motor is a 5 valve V6 with 200 hp and variable cam timing -
not too much but it gets you around. It gets 26 mpg at 75+mph with AC
on. Premium fuel is required. The interior is leather, plush, and very
roomy. Sound system and seats are excellent.

I towed my Jantar 3000+ miles thru the mountains to 10k feet. With a
Minden fab trailer (the proverbial barn door), I drove 65 mph and got
20 mpg for the trip. You have to downshift in the big hills, no
biggie. I can do 80 mph with a stable ride, but then I feel like I am
abusing it. A better trailer would fix that problem.

If you go used Audi, avoid the V6 turbos and V8's. Mine has 160k with
no real issues to speak of over the last 100k and five years I have
owned it.

YMMV,
Adam

Papa3

November 4th 09, 12:54 PM

On Nov 3, 11:01*pm, Adam > wrote:
> On Oct 29, 7:38*pm, ryanglover1969 > wrote:
>
> > Hello all. I am looking to buy a new vehicle, mainly for work related
> > reasons. Something like an AWD Subaru Outback would be perfect for
> > work.
>
> > So I'm wondering what you all have to say about towing my sailplane
> > trailer with a Subaru Outback, which is a 4 cylinder vehicle. That's
> > the issue I need answered. Would a 4 cylinder do the job? Or would it
> > tear up the transmission.
>
> > I don't want a lager vehicle for MPG reasons.
>
> > Thanks, Ryan
>
> I tow with a used '99 Audi A6 Avant (wagon) quattro. The car is very
> heavy and has decent brakes. It has double-wishbones on all four
> corners and rides much better than a Subie (the roads up north here
> are crap). The tranny is 5 speed automatic. The torque converter is
> locked nearly all the time and it shifts very fast in manual or auto
> mode. The motor is a 5 valve V6 with 200 hp and variable cam timing -
> not too much but it gets you around. It gets 26 mpg at 75+mph with AC
> on. Premium fuel is required. The interior is leather, plush, and very
> roomy. Sound system and seats are excellent.
>
> I towed my Jantar 3000+ miles thru the mountains to 10k feet. With a
> Minden fab trailer (the proverbial barn door), I drove 65 mph and got
> 20 mpg for the trip. You have to downshift in the big hills, no
> biggie. I can do 80 mph with a stable ride, but then I feel like I am
> abusing it. A better trailer would fix that problem.
>
> If you go used Audi, avoid the V6 turbos and V8's. Mine has 160k with
> no real issues to speak of over the last 100k and five years I have
> owned it.
>
> YMMV,
> Adam

The new (2010) Outback has a re-designed suspension incorporating
double wishbone in the rear (front is still standard McPherson
struts). Along with the increased ride height, it should be an even
better tow vehicle.

I love my 2002 Passat with the V6 and 4motion suspension (similar to
your Audi quattro). However, at 150K miles, it's starting to give
warning signs that it will become a money pit in the not too distant
future (replaced ignition coils, flex joints in the exhaust, etc.).

P3