Small Altimeter Options for Gliders

[joesimmers]

I am going to build a new panel for my glider this winter and would
like to go with all small instruments.

The Altimeter is the only one that I am having trouble deciding on, I
thought I was going to need a "certified" altimeter but recently spoke
to a very reputable source and found out that a "certified" altimeter
is not required for VFR flying, so this opens my options.

I have it narrowed down to four choices listed below.


1) New Winter altimeter $900 ( A lot more than I would like to spend)

2) Used Aerosonic for $500 to $700 ( looks like a very nice
instrument, a bit heavier than the Winter)

3) UMA single pointer 20k $300 (These look very difficult to read
accuratly as the 20k is one full rotation)

4) Microtim digital altimeter from ( http://www.microtim.com/index.htm
) (This option looks very good to me, it takes up very little panel
space, easy to read, self contained long lasting battery, easy on the
wallet compared to other options)


I found a post by Mike Borgelt where he stated he was using a Microtim
altimeter and he reccomended it.

Does anyone know of any good reason not to install a Microtim?

Thanks for any advice,
Joe Simmers

[Paul Remde]

Hi Joe,

I imagine that this will sound like I'm just trying to sell you an expensive
(but very nice) Winter altimeter, but... You may want to consider how the
altimeter will affect the re-sale value of the glider. As a buyer I would
shy away from gliders with non-standard altimeters and would be included to
buy a glider with a Winter altimeter - because I know it is legal and
reliable.

The low cost options do look very interesting. I'm very curious to hear how
many pilots use non-certified altimeters - and whether they are legal in
Experimental and type-certificated gliders in the USA.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"joesimmers" > wrote in message
...
>I am going to build a new panel for my glider this winter and would
> like to go with all small instruments.
>
> The Altimeter is the only one that I am having trouble deciding on, I
> thought I was going to need a "certified" altimeter but recently spoke
> to a very reputable source and found out that a "certified" altimeter
> is not required for VFR flying, so this opens my options.
>
> I have it narrowed down to four choices listed below.
>
>
> 1) New Winter altimeter $900 ( A lot more than I would like to spend)
>
> 2) Used Aerosonic for $500 to $700 ( looks like a very nice
> instrument, a bit heavier than the Winter)
>
> 3) UMA single pointer 20k $300 (These look very difficult to read
> accuratly as the 20k is one full rotation)
>
> 4) Microtim digital altimeter from ( http://www.microtim.com/index.htm
> ) (This option looks very good to me, it takes up very little panel
> space, easy to read, self contained long lasting battery, easy on the
> wallet compared to other options)
>
>
> I found a post by Mike Borgelt where he stated he was using a Microtim
> altimeter and he reccomended it.
>
> Does anyone know of any good reason not to install a Microtim?
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Joe Simmers

[John Smith]

joesimmers wrote:

> thought I was going to need a "certified" altimeter but recently spoke
> to a very reputable source and found out that a "certified" altimeter
> is not required for VFR flying,

This depends on where you're flying. In EASA country, a certified
altimeter is part of the required minimum equipment.

[[email protected]]

On Nov 12, 7:55*am, joesimmers > wrote:
> I am going to build a new panel for my glider this winter and would
> like to go with all small instruments.
>
> The Altimeter is the only one that I am having trouble deciding on, I
> thought I was going to need a "certified" altimeter but recently spoke
> to a very reputable source and found out that a "certified" altimeter
> is not required for VFR flying, so this opens my options.
>
> I have it narrowed down to four choices listed below.
>
> 1) *New Winter altimeter $900 ( A lot more than I would like to spend)
>
> 2) Used Aerosonic for $500 to $700 ( looks like a very nice
> instrument, a bit heavier than the Winter)
>
> 3) UMA single pointer 20k *$300 *(These look very difficult to read
> accuratly as the 20k is one full rotation)
>
> 4) Microtim digital altimeter from *(http://www.microtim.com/index.htm
> ) *(This option looks very good to me, it takes up * very little panel
> space, easy to read, self contained long lasting battery, easy on the
> wallet compared to other options)
>
> I found a post by Mike Borgelt where he stated he was using a Microtim
> altimeter and he reccomended it.
>
> Does anyone know of any good reason not to install a Microtim?
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Joe Simmers

This comment will repeat a phrase which is more and more common. Look
into information in your Flt and Maint. manuals related to
instrumentation.
If your glider is licensed in the standard catagory, the FAA's
position is that the glider must conform to "approved data", ie the
manufacturer's documents.
Ah! But my glider is Experimental. Now go look at your operating
limitations which, unless they are non standard or old, will also
indicated that the glider is to be maintained in accordance with
manufacturer's information(approved data).
In reality, it probably makes no difference unless you have a problem,
but you should read your documents before making your decision.
Functionally, a small digital altimiter seems like a nice improvement-
unless of course, the power supply pukes.
Confusing answer huh!
UH

[joesimmers]

>
> This depends on where you're flying. In EASA country, a certified
> altimeter is part of the required minimum equipment.


This is for flying in the USA, sorry forgot to include that.

Joe

[jcarlyle]

Speaking only to readability, I recommend the digital option. The 57
mm Winter altimeter is horrible, because Winter decided to use a 10
foot interval and thus overcrowded the dial. If they had simply used a
20 foot interval, like the 80 mm United altimeter, it would have been
1000% better.

Having said that, I recommend that you go with whatever your Flight
Manual calls out.

-John

[joesimmers]

Hello Uncle Hank, I have went through the manuals and the only thing
I can find for a requirement simply states "ALTIMETER" and nothing
else.

Glider is an asw27 licensed in the Standard category.

Thanks, Joe

[John Smith]

joesimmers wrote:
> I have went through the manuals and the only thing I can find
> for a requirement simply states "ALTIMETER" and nothing else.

When it is on the required minimum equipment list, then it must be
certified. At least that's how I understand it.

[luv2glide]

On Nov 12, 7:55*am, joesimmers > wrote:
> I am going to build a new panel for my glider this winter and would
> like to go with all small instruments.
>
> The Altimeter is the only one that I am having trouble deciding on, I
> thought I was going to need a "certified" altimeter but recently spoke
> to a very reputable source and found out that a "certified" altimeter
> is not required for VFR flying, so this opens my options.
>
> I have it narrowed down to four choices listed below.
>
> 1) *New Winter altimeter $900 ( A lot more than I would like to spend)
>
> 2) Used Aerosonic for $500 to $700 ( looks like a very nice
> instrument, a bit heavier than the Winter)
>
> 3) UMA single pointer 20k *$300 *(These look very difficult to read
> accuratly as the 20k is one full rotation)
>
> 4) Microtim digital altimeter from *(http://www.microtim.com/index.htm
> ) *(This option looks very good to me, it takes up * very little panel
> space, easy to read, self contained long lasting battery, easy on the
> wallet compared to other options)
>
> I found a post by Mike Borgelt where he stated he was using a Microtim
> altimeter and he reccomended it.
>
> Does anyone know of any good reason not to install a Microtim?
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Joe Simmers

I re-did my panel and put in a small altimeter. Would not do that
again. They are not user friendly for reading.

[Richard[_9_]]

On Nov 12, 4:55*am, joesimmers > wrote:
> I am going to build a new panel for my glider this winter and would
> like to go with all small instruments.
>
> The Altimeter is the only one that I am having trouble deciding on, I
> thought I was going to need a "certified" altimeter but recently spoke
> to a very reputable source and found out that a "certified" altimeter
> is not required for VFR flying, so this opens my options.
>
> I have it narrowed down to four choices listed below.
>
> 1) *New Winter altimeter $900 ( A lot more than I would like to spend)
>
> 2) Used Aerosonic for $500 to $700 ( looks like a very nice
> instrument, a bit heavier than the Winter)
>
> 3) UMA single pointer 20k *$300 *(These look very difficult to read
> accuratly as the 20k is one full rotation)
>
> 4) Microtim digital altimeter from *(http://www.microtim.com/index.htm
> ) *(This option looks very good to me, it takes up * very little panel
> space, easy to read, self contained long lasting battery, easy on the
> wallet compared to other options)
>
> I found a post by Mike Borgelt where he stated he was using a Microtim
> altimeter and he reccomended it.
>
> Does anyone know of any good reason not to install a Microtim?
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Joe Simmers

I used a Winter 57mm for a summer. I found it extremely hard to read
and prone to misreading. What I reverted to is the altimeter
display on the CAI 302. The panel this year has a United 80mm that is
usable.

Please see panel pictures the top two pictures show the two different
altitmeters,

http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate.htm

If you need any tips on panel construction give me a call.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard[_9_]]

On Nov 12, 4:55*am, joesimmers > wrote:
> I am going to build a new panel for my glider this winter and would
> like to go with all small instruments.
>
> The Altimeter is the only one that I am having trouble deciding on, I
> thought I was going to need a "certified" altimeter but recently spoke
> to a very reputable source and found out that a "certified" altimeter
> is not required for VFR flying, so this opens my options.
>
> I have it narrowed down to four choices listed below.
>
> 1) *New Winter altimeter $900 ( A lot more than I would like to spend)
>
> 2) Used Aerosonic for $500 to $700 ( looks like a very nice
> instrument, a bit heavier than the Winter)
>
> 3) UMA single pointer 20k *$300 *(These look very difficult to read
> accuratly as the 20k is one full rotation)
>
> 4) Microtim digital altimeter from *(http://www.microtim.com/index.htm
> ) *(This option looks very good to me, it takes up * very little panel
> space, easy to read, self contained long lasting battery, easy on the
> wallet compared to other options)
>
> I found a post by Mike Borgelt where he stated he was using a Microtim
> altimeter and he reccomended it.
>
> Does anyone know of any good reason not to install a Microtim?
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Joe Simmers

Joe,

MGL also has a very nice digital altimeter option which has a VSI and
a temperature.

I have it in another panel the I built bottom of the following page.

http://www.craggyaero.com/instl_pictures.htm

MGL details: ALT-1

http://www.craggyaero.com/smart_singles.htm


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Andy[_10_]]

On Nov 12, 4:55*am, joesimmers > wrote:
> I am going to build a new panel for my glider this winter and would
> like to go with all small instruments.
>
> The Altimeter is the only one that I am having trouble deciding on, I
> thought I was going to need a "certified" altimeter but recently spoke
> to a very reputable source and found out that a "certified" altimeter
> is not required for VFR flying, so this opens my options.
>
> I have it narrowed down to four choices listed below.
>
> 1) *New Winter altimeter $900 ( A lot more than I would like to spend)
>
> 2) Used Aerosonic for $500 to $700 ( looks like a very nice
> instrument, a bit heavier than the Winter)
>
> 3) UMA single pointer 20k *$300 *(These look very difficult to read
> accuratly as the 20k is one full rotation)
>
> 4) Microtim digital altimeter from *(http://www.microtim.com/index.htm
> ) *(This option looks very good to me, it takes up * very little panel
> space, easy to read, self contained long lasting battery, easy on the
> wallet compared to other options)
>
> I found a post by Mike Borgelt where he stated he was using a Microtim
> altimeter and he reccomended it.
>
> Does anyone know of any good reason not to install a Microtim?
>
> Thanks for any advice,
> Joe Simmers

There are two instruments in my panel that I chose to keep at 80mm -
the airspeed and the altimeter. The reason? Readability. I also put
the airspeed top center in the panel. I figured I really don't want
ever to be in a position of misreading my altitude, and particularly
my airspeed. My worry on the LCD altimeter is the battery or display
going south due to any of a host of reasons. Unless panel space is
really at a premium make sure that you select instruments you can
quickly and easily scan, even if it means bigger ones - at least in
these two categories.

9B

[Mark Jardini]

From my point of view with nearly 60 yo eyes, the Winter is fine-
expensive but readable.

Mark

[KevinFinke]

I agree with John Carlyle. If only Winter would just make a new face
for their little altimeter. One with 20 foot graduations and numbers
that are a bit bigger in size, I think they would sell a bundle of
them. Take the standard United 3" altimeter and scale down the face.
The 57mm Aerosonic altimeter looks like a scaled down 80mm version and
is incredibly easy to read, but it's way too expensive for common use.

-Kevin

[John Smith]

KevinFinke wrote:
> I agree with John Carlyle. If only Winter would just make a new face
> for their little altimeter. One with 20 foot graduations and numbers
> that are a bit bigger in size, I think they would sell a bundle of

Pretty much all gliders I fly are equipped with Winter's 57mm altimeter,
and I never felt any difficulties in reading it. As the fifties are
nicley marked, it gives me immediately a good quick estimate, and in
those very rare moments when I want to know more precisely, I can always
take a closer look.

The only problem I've encountered is that I've seen a couple of them
with broken temperature compensation, but I don't have any statistical
numbers, so I don't know whether this altimeter is overly prone to that
failure.

[jcarlyle]

Maybe my point can be better made with pictures. Compare the altimeter
at this link:
http://www.airwich.com/aerosonic-2inch-altimete2.html
with the bottom altimeter at this link:
http://www.winter-instruments.de/english/produkte/hoehenmesser.html

Sure, you can read the Winter, but the Aerosonic is much crisper and
clearer. And if you imagine replacing the red-tipped 10,000 foot hand
on the Winter shown with the all white 10,000 foot hand that my Winter
actually has, you can appreciate why I'd junk my Winter in a heartbeat
if the Aerosonic wasn't $3,700!

-John

John Smith wrote:
> Pretty much all gliders I fly are equipped with Winter's 57mm altimeter,
> and I never felt any difficulties in reading it. As the fifties are
> nicley marked, it gives me immediately a good quick estimate, and in
> those very rare moments when I want to know more precisely, I can always
> take a closer look.

[John Smith]

jcarlyle wrote:

> I'd junk my Winter in a heartbeat if the Aerosonic wasn't $3,700!

I'd junk my 1-26 in a heartbeat if the Antares wasn't $200,000 ...

[jcarlyle]

You've got a 1-26 with a 57mm Winter altimeter???? Besides being
sacrilege, what are you doing with all the excess panel space?

-John

John Smith wrote:
> I'd junk my 1-26 in a heartbeat if the Antares wasn't $200,000 ...

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 12:30:36 -0800, KevinFinke wrote:

> I agree with John Carlyle. If only Winter would just make a new face for
> their little altimeter. One with 20 foot graduations and numbers that
> are a bit bigger in size, I think they would sell a bundle of them.
>
I understand why you'd want bigger numbers, but why do you need even 20
ft graduations? I have an 80 mm PZL altimeter with 100 ft graduations.
Thats fine enough markings for my needs: I can estimate to 20-25 feet if
I should ever need to do that.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[John Smith]

jcarlyle wrote:

> You've got a 1-26 with a 57mm Winter altimeter????

Actually no, luckily. While most gliders I fly are indeed equipped with
the 57mm Winter altimeter, I luckily don't have to fly 1-26s. Unluckily
no Antares either, though. But I guess you knew that.

[vontresc]

On Nov 12, 4:31*pm, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Maybe my point can be better made with pictures. Compare the altimeter
> at this link:http://www.airwich.com/aerosonic-2inch-altimete2.html
> with the bottom altimeter at this link:http://www.winter-instruments.de/english/produkte/hoehenmesser.html
>
> Sure, you can read the Winter, but the Aerosonic is much crisper and
> clearer. And if you imagine replacing the red-tipped 10,000 foot hand
> on the Winter shown with the all white 10,000 foot hand that my Winter
> actually has, you can appreciate why I'd junk my Winter in a heartbeat
> if the Aerosonic wasn't $3,700!
>
> -John
>
>
>
> John Smith wrote:
> > Pretty much all gliders I fly are equipped with Winter's 57mm altimeter,
> > and I never felt any difficulties in reading it. As the fifties are
> > nicley marked, it gives me immediately a good quick estimate, and in
> > those very rare moments when I want to know more precisely, I can always
> > take a closer look.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

WOW. What makes an altimeter cost $3,700???? I mean besides low volume
production, paperwork, and liability.

Pete

[jcarlyle]

Astounding, isn't it? I've no idea why Aerosonic charges 4x the price
of the Winter 57 mm altimeter. Maybe it has a lifetime warranty, maybe
it's gold plated, or maybe they sell only to the government. Whatever,
the horrible 57 mm Winter will stay in my glider for a long time,
notwithstanding the much better readability of the Aerosonic...

-John

On Nov 13, 10:04 am, vontresc > wrote:
> WOW. What makes an altimeter cost $3,700???? I mean besides low volume
> production, paperwork, and liability.

[Tim Taylor]

On Nov 13, 8:22*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Astounding, isn't it? I've no idea why Aerosonic charges 4x the price
> of the Winter 57 mm altimeter. Maybe it has a lifetime warranty, maybe
> it's gold plated, or maybe they sell only to the government. Whatever,
> the horrible 57 mm Winter will stay in my glider for a long time,
> notwithstanding the much better readability of the Aerosonic...
>
> -John
>
> On Nov 13, 10:04 am, vontresc > wrote:
>
>
>
> > WOW. What makes an altimeter cost $3,700???? I mean besides low volume
> > production, *paperwork, and liability.

As Richard said my 302 has become my main altimeter. I hardly look at
the 57 mm Winter. I have to be careful on my preflight to even set it
as I automatically set the 302 during the preflight as "the"
altimeter.

I don't think they are hard to read, but they do require a refocusing
and direct attention compared to a quick scan that can be done with
the 80 mm. A little work to make a new face would improve the 57 mm
dramatically.