Wanted: Article from Soaring, March 1998

[jsbrake]

Hi All,

Would anyone be kind enough to send me an electronic copy of the
following article from Soaring, March 1998:
“Putting the Bite into Weak Drum Brakes”, by Tillmann Steckner

I'd like to actually be able to stop my heavy Kestrel 19 when it
lands... without using fixed objects likes trees or fence posts.

TIA,
John

[Tim Taylor]

On Nov 13, 10:21*am, jsbrake > wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Would anyone be kind enough to send me an electronic copy of the
> following article from Soaring, March 1998:
> “Putting the Bite into Weak Drum Brakes”, by Tillmann Steckner
>
> I'd like to actually be able to stop my heavy Kestrel 19 when it
> lands... without using fixed objects likes trees or fence posts.
>
> TIA,
> John

Don't do it! Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
engaged.

http://www.vintagebrake.com/

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Nov 13, 9:26*am, Tim Taylor > wrote:

> Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> engaged.
>
> http://www.vintagebrake.com/

I second Tim's recommendation. Vintage Brake does great work and
they're easy to deal with.

Thanks, Bob K.
www.hpaircraft.com

[JJ Sinclair]

> Don't do it! *

Roger that!
I saw a ship lock the brake on the runway after installing this stupid
mod. Ever try to move a 20 with a locked brake?
JJ

[Dave Nadler]

On Nov 13, 12:26*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 10:21*am, jsbrake > wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
>
> > Would anyone be kind enough to send me an electronic copy of the
> > following article from Soaring, March 1998:
> > “Putting the Bite into Weak Drum Brakes”, by Tillmann Steckner
>
> > I'd like to actually be able to stop my heavy Kestrel 19 when it
> > lands... without using fixed objects likes trees or fence posts.
>
> > TIA,
> > John
>
> Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> engaged.
>
> http://www.vintagebrake.com/

The instructions I saw (> a decade prior Tilly's publication)
are explicit about the need to add much bigger return springs
to avoid lockup. Its quite entertaining to watch the results
when this is ignored. "These springs look good enough"...

Best I've seen was an Elfe (same tiny wheel as H201),
where the lockup broke the axle and tost castings, and
the glider slid to a stop on top on top of the wheel,
except the wheel was lying sideways on the pavement.
Very nice !

Other than properly surfacing the brake shoes, check
that the cam has not elongated the hole in the weak
aluminum casting, in which case you want to put
in a strong bushing and get rid of all the slop.

Have fun, and don't forget to post the video of
the first attempt to use the new brake,

Best Regards, "YO electric" *

* "proud owner of an actual functioning wheelbrake"

[rlovinggood]

YO, Dave,

Can you switch your electric fan to "reverse thrust" upon landing for
a REALLY short landing, in conjunction with properly functioning wheel
brake?


Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
> The instructions I saw (> a decade prior Tilly's publication)
> are explicit about the need to add much bigger return springs
> to avoid lockup. Its quite entertaining to watch the results
> when this is ignored. "These springs look good enough"...
>
> Best I've seen was an Elfe (same tiny wheel as H201),
> where the lockup broke the axle and tost castings, and
> the glider slid to a stop on top on top of the wheel,
> except the wheel was lying sideways on the pavement.
> Very nice !
>
> Other than properly surfacing the brake shoes, check
> that the cam has not elongated the hole in the weak
> aluminum casting, in which case you want to put
> in a strong bushing and get rid of all the slop.
>
> Have fun, and don't forget to post the video of
> the first attempt to use the new brake,
>
> Best Regards, "YO electric" *
>
> * "proud owner of an actual functioning wheelbrake"

[Dave Nadler]

On Nov 13, 7:47*pm, rlovinggood > wrote:
> YO, Dave,
>
> Can you switch your electric fan to "reverse thrust" upon landing for
> a REALLY short landing, in conjunction with properly functioning wheel
> brake?
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

If you had ever experienced an actual functioning wheelbrake,
you'd know that this is unnecessary...

See ya, Dave "YO electric"

PS: My wheelbrake actually has a separate component to
*limit* the braking force ! Here's a picture:
http://www.nadler.com/Antares/Antares_PressureLimiter.jpg
Imagine needing that !

[Lewis Hartswick]

Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> Don't do it! Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> engaged.
>
> http://www.vintagebrake.com/
>

Any company that uses the term "billet" in their ads looks
like they are mainly aimed at the motorcycle crowd. I thought
the soaring community had a bit more intelligence than to
use such language. :-(
...lew...

[Dan[_6_]]

On Nov 14, 6:41*am, Lewis Hartswick > wrote:
> Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> > Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> > The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> > engaged.
>
> >http://www.vintagebrake.com/
>
> Any company that uses the term "billet" in their ads looks
> like they are mainly aimed at the motorcycle crowd. I thought
> the soaring community had a bit more intelligence than to
> use such language. :-(
> * * ...lew...

[Dan[_6_]]

On Nov 14, 6:41*am, Lewis Hartswick > wrote:
> Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> > Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> > The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> > engaged.
>
> >http://www.vintagebrake.com/
>
> Any company that uses the term "billet" in their ads looks
> like they are mainly aimed at the motorcycle crowd. I thought
> the soaring community had a bit more intelligence than to
> use such language. :-(
> * * ...lew...

yes, they do a lot of brake work on motorcycles. Don't hold that
against them.
They did a great job on my Tost wheel brake and for a good price and
on schedule.
I give Vintage Brake a big thumbs up.
Dan

[Dave Nadler]

On Nov 14, 10:02*am, Dan > wrote:
> On Nov 14, 6:41*am, Lewis Hartswick > wrote:
>
> > Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> > > Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> > > The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> > > engaged.
>
> > >http://www.vintagebrake.com/
>
> > Any company that uses the term "billet" in their ads looks
> > like they are mainly aimed at the motorcycle crowd. I thought
> > the soaring community had a bit more intelligence than to
> > use such language. :-(
> > * * ...lew...
>
> yes, they do a lot of brake work on motorcycles. *Don't hold that
> against them.
> They did a great job on my Tost wheel brake and for a good price and
> on schedule.
> I give Vintage Brake a big thumbs up.
> Dan

Seriously - Can they also install a bushing as needed when the
camshaft wears away the casting ?

[[email protected]]

Michael "Mercury" Morris at Vintage Brakes does excellent work at a
fair price and in a timely manner. I highly recommend his work.

He overhauled my AS-W20 P.O.J. Tost unit including detecting and
bushing out the ovalized holes, installing high performance brake
shoes, and making the shoes and drum concentric (unlike almost all
stock Tost brakes I have ever seen). The brake would lock, if I
desired, after his work and continued to perform perfectly for years.

Happily, he is not wise enough (yet) to stop working of whiner glider
pilot's brakes. I believe he only works on "racing lawnmower" Tost
brakes as he does not want the liability of working on aircraft - and
maybe because lawnmowers are the only thing a stock Tost unit is good
for.

Mark (AS-W20C with a real hydraulic aircraft brake)

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Nov 14, 6:41*am, Lewis Hartswick > wrote:
> Tim Taylor wrote:
>
> > Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> > The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> > engaged.
>
> >http://www.vintagebrake.com/
>
> Any company that uses the term "billet" in their ads looks
> like they are mainly aimed at the motorcycle crowd. I thought
> the soaring community had a bit more intelligence than to
> use such language. :-(
> * * ...lew...

Yes, that is their main business. They can (and have, for me) make a
vintage quad leading shoe cable actuated road racing drum brake work
every bit as well as a dual disc system. There are numerous people
who have had Vintage Brake turn their nearly useless Tost brake into
something that actually works, and they do it for a reasonable and
don't take forever.

[Doug Hoffman[_3_]]

On Nov 13, 12:26*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 10:21*am, jsbrake > wrote:
>
> > Hi All,
>
> > Would anyone be kind enough to send me an electronic copy of the
> > following article from Soaring, March 1998:
> > “Putting the Bite into Weak Drum Brakes”, by Tillmann Steckner
>
> > I'd like to actually be able to stop my heavy Kestrel 19 when it
> > lands... without using fixed objects likes trees or fence posts.
>
> > TIA,
> > John
>
> Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> engaged.

I don't know how many of the negative responders have actually done
the Steckner mod with their own hands. Here is one data point from
someone who has. It was simple to do and has worked perfectly for the
last 6 years. Tost brake. Prior to the mod I essentially had no
brake. After the mod it felt like a disc brake. Very progressive
feel, easily modulated, with absolutely no tendency to stick and will
stand the glider on its nose if you need it.

If you mess up the installation, which is unlikely if you are at all
handy with simple tools, or just don't like the results you can easily
return it to standard by buying one new brake shoe.

It is true that the Steckner mod loads a pin in the brake assy in a
manner for which it was not designed (I think). But I would much
rather eventually damage that pin than run into $something$. Again,
after 6 years of frequent use the mod has worked flawlessly (15 meter
glider over 525 pounds empty weight) including at least a couple of
important "saves".

Regards,

-Doug Hoffman

p.s. Let me know if you still want/need the article and I can send it
to you.

[Brad[_2_]]

On Nov 15, 3:33*am, Doug Hoffman > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 12:26*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 13, 10:21*am, jsbrake > wrote:
>
> > > Hi All,
>
> > > Would anyone be kind enough to send me an electronic copy of the
> > > following article from Soaring, March 1998:
> > > “Putting the Bite into Weak Drum Brakes”, by Tillmann Steckner
>
> > > I'd like to actually be able to stop my heavy Kestrel 19 when it
> > > lands... without using fixed objects likes trees or fence posts.
>
> > > TIA,
> > > John
>
> > Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> > The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> > engaged.
>
> I don't know how many of the negative responders have actually done
> the Steckner mod with their own hands. *Here is one data point from
> someone who has. *It was simple to do and has worked perfectly for the
> last 6 years. *Tost brake. *Prior to the mod I essentially had no
> brake. *After the mod it felt like a disc brake. *Very progressive
> feel, easily modulated, with absolutely no tendency to stick and will
> stand the glider on its nose if you need it.
>
> If you mess up the installation, which is unlikely if you are at all
> handy with simple tools, or just don't like the results you can easily
> return it to standard by buying one new brake shoe.
>
> It is true that the Steckner mod loads a pin in the brake assy in a
> manner for which it was not designed (I think). *But I would much
> rather eventually damage that pin than run into $something$. *Again,
> after 6 years of frequent use the mod has worked flawlessly (15 meter
> glider over 525 pounds empty weight) including at least a couple of
> important "saves".
>
> Regards,
>
> -Doug Hoffman
>
> p.s. Let me know if you still want/need the article and I can send it
> to you.

I put an Azuza drum brake on my HP-24, the system is installed now,
and when I squeeze the bike grip, if I reeeeeaaaaaalllly try I can
slightly rotate the tire, for a moment. This might or might not result
in stopping the glider reasonably well. I wonder if the mod you are
talking about could be performed on this brake system?

Brad

[Mike[_8_]]

On Nov 15, 4:33*am, Doug Hoffman > wrote:
> On Nov 13, 12:26*pm, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 13, 10:21*am, jsbrake > wrote:
>
> > > Hi All,
>
> > > Would anyone be kind enough to send me an electronic copy of the
> > > following article from Soaring, March 1998:
> > > “Putting the Bite into Weak Drum Brakes”, by Tillmann Steckner
>
> > > I'd like to actually be able to stop my heavy Kestrel 19 when it
> > > lands... without using fixed objects likes trees or fence posts.
>
> > > TIA,
> > > John
>
> > Don't do it! *Send the wheel to Vintage Brake in Sonora California.
> > The Steckner mod is self energizing but won't release properly once
> > engaged.
>
> I don't know how many of the negative responders have actually done
> the Steckner mod with their own hands. *Here is one data point from
> someone who has. *It was simple to do and has worked perfectly for the
> last 6 years. *Tost brake. *Prior to the mod I essentially had no
> brake. *After the mod it felt like a disc brake. *Very progressive
> feel, easily modulated, with absolutely no tendency to stick and will
> stand the glider on its nose if you need it.
>
> If you mess up the installation, which is unlikely if you are at all
> handy with simple tools, or just don't like the results you can easily
> return it to standard by buying one new brake shoe.
I now own the sailplane Doug put the Streckner mod on.

The brake will still put the sailplane on its nose and continues to
work flawlessly.




>
> It is true that the Steckner mod loads a pin in the brake assy in a
> manner for which it was not designed (I think). *But I would much
> rather eventually damage that pin than run into $something$. *Again,
> after 6 years of frequent use the mod has worked flawlessly (15 meter
> glider over 525 pounds empty weight) including at least a couple of
> important "saves".
>
> Regards,
>
> -Doug Hoffman
>
> p.s. Let me know if you still want/need the article and I can send it
> to you.

[Bruce]

jsbrake wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Would anyone be kind enough to send me an electronic copy of the
> following article from Soaring, March 1998:
> “Putting the Bite into Weak Drum Brakes”, by Tillmann Steckner
>
> I'd like to actually be able to stop my heavy Kestrel 19 when it
> lands... without using fixed objects likes trees or fence posts.
>
> TIA,
> John
Hey John

I've worked it out in my Kestrel.

Once the wheel touches you should not be pointing it at anything you
plan to keep...

You can adjust the brake to provide limited stopping but it is never
going to lift the tail.

Bruce

[Doug Hoffman[_3_]]

On Nov 15, 10:47*am, Brad > wrote:

> I put an Azuza drum brake on my HP-24, the system is installed now,
> and when I squeeze the bike grip, if I reeeeeaaaaaalllly try I can
> slightly rotate the tire, for a moment. This might or might not result
> in stopping the glider reasonably well. I wonder if the mod you are
> talking about could be performed on this brake system?

I don't know. Steckner claims the Tost non-energizing design is
ancient auto technology. In the early 1950's cars went to the self-
energizing design which is what the Steckner mod provides. Take a
look at the article I sent to you and you should be able to figure it
out.

Regards,

-Doug

[jsbrake]

> Once the wheel touches you should not be pointing it at anything you
> plan to keep...
>
> You can adjust the brake to provide limited stopping but it is never
> going to lift the tail.
>
> Bruce

Gee, thanks, Bruce! The senior instructors at my club have been very
specific in their directions for when I land the Kestrel: land away
from everybody with nothing in front and don't taxi. I've diverted to
another runway (our club has several) to avoid the congestion.

If it weren't for the risk of tearing the drogue, I'd keep it attached
until I was almost stopped. As it is now, I jettison the chute just
after roundout.

[JJ Sinclair]

Are we talking about the mod where the pivot bolt is hack-sawed away
from the brake housing and allowed to float free? If so, I haven't
done the mod but I have un-done several. The problem as I see it is,
the automobile system only allows slight lateral movement thus
allowing the shoes to self align inside the drum. This sailplane mod
allows both lateral and vertical movement. When braking is applied,
the lead shoe can be suddenly sucked forward and up into the drum
which generates heat resulting in the shoe frozen in place on the
drum.
JJ

[Doug Hoffman[_3_]]

On Nov 16, 10:38*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
> Are we talking about the mod where the pivot bolt is hack-sawed away
> from the brake housing and allowed to float free?

No. Steckner specifically warns to *not* do that as he had heard that
some tried it with the results you describe. I will send you the
article.

Regards,

-Doug

[jsbrake]

I have been given an electronic copy of the article.

Thanks to all for the advice and information, both in the forum and
directly -- I greatly appreciate it.

Anyone know of a Canadian company? I think it would be easier than
back and forth across the border.

Thanks!
John

[JJ Sinclair]

On Nov 16, 7:58*am, Doug Hoffman > wrote:
> On Nov 16, 10:38*am, JJ Sinclair > wrote:
>
> > Are we talking about the mod where the pivot bolt is hack-sawed away
> > from the brake housing and allowed to float free?
>
> No. *Steckner specifically warns to *not* do that as he had heard that
> some tried it with the results you describe. *I will send you the
> article.
>
> Regards,
>
> -Doug

My condemnation was in reference to the 'cut-off pivot bolt'
modification which will lock the brake. The Tillmann modification is
well thought out and should give much better braking if the close
tolerence parts are properly constructed and installed. I stand
corrected.
JJ