BMW engine aircraft suitable?

[Stu Fields]

"Anyolmouse" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ralf Mueller" > wrote in message
> ...
>> just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine
> assembly
>> is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm).
> Wouldn't
>> that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))
>
> With about a 4.8/1 reduction to the prop??
>
> --
> We have met the enemy and he is us-- Pogo
>
> Anyolmouse

What kind of TBO is expected @ 12,000 rpm?? Some guy who has been playing
with engines for quite awhile has a rule of thumb that says 4500 is a kind
of mark for piston engines beyond which the durability starts decreasing
more rapidly??? I haven't double checked this, but it makes some sense that
the faster the piston engine spends the quicker it wears. There is several
projects using the Yamaha 4stroke snowmobile engine that turns up around
12,000 for it's hp. Data should be available soon on their durability...

[Ralf Mueller]

just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine assembly
is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm). Wouldn't
that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))

[Anyolmouse]

"Ralf Mueller" > wrote in message
...
> just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine
assembly
> is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm).
Wouldn't
> that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))

With about a 4.8/1 reduction to the prop??

--
We have met the enemy and he is us-- Pogo

Anyolmouse

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ralf Mueller" > wrote in message
...
> just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine assembly
> is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm). Wouldn't
> that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))

193 HP ??? Are you positive about that number? I would like to see where
that number came from, if it is available on the net, if you wouldn't mind.

If it is correct, that should do rather nicely. People have flown BMW bike
engines in the past. I believe that most of the successful ones have used a
different gearbox to reduce the prop RPM. Seems to me that I remember that
they adapted a Rotax gearbox to the job, but I doubt that there are any
Rotax gearboxed that could handle 193 HP.
--
Jim in NC

[Karl-Heinz Künzel]

Morgans schrieb:
> "Ralf Mueller" > wrote in message
> ...
>> just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine assembly
>> is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm). Wouldn't
>> that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))
>
> 193 HP ??? Are you positive about that number? I would like to see where
> that number came from, if it is available on the net, if you wouldn't mind.
>
> If it is correct, that should do rather nicely. People have flown BMW bike
> engines in the past. I believe that most of the successful ones have used a
> different gearbox to reduce the prop RPM. Seems to me that I remember that
> they adapted a Rotax gearbox to the job, but I doubt that there are any
> Rotax gearboxed that could handle 193 HP.

Here in Germany we do have this BMW conversion ->

http://www.takeoff-ul.de/pdf%27s/Description_TAKEOFF_engine_02-2006.pdf

but those numbers are far away from 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm).

KH

[Ralf Mueller]

Karl-Heinz Künzel wrote:
> Here in Germany we do have this BMW conversion ->
>
> http://www.takeoff-ul.de/pdf%27s/Description_TAKEOFF_engine_02-2006.pdf
>
> but those numbers are far away from 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm).
>
> KH


yes, but that one is much heavier only half the HP. Here is a press release
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/17/officially-official-bmw-s-1000-rr-race-bike/

[Ralf Mueller]

Karl-Heinz Künzel wrote:
> Here in Germany we do have this BMW conversion ->
>
> http://www.takeoff-ul.de/pdf%27s/Description_TAKEOFF_engine_02-2006.pdf
>
> but those numbers are far away from 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm).
>
> KH


yes, but that one is much heavier at only half the HP. Here is a press
release:
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/04/17/officially-official-bmw-s-1000-rr-race-bike/

[bildan]

On Nov 27, 3:54*am, Ralf Mueller > wrote:
> just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine assembly
> is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm). Wouldn't
> that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))

I'd make a great SLA powerplant - as would other 4-cyl motorcycle
engines.

To answer other posts in this thread:

How long would a 12,000 RPM engine last?
Longer than a Lycoming. These engines are bulletproof.

They get their amazing power-to-weight ratio by being a high revving
engine. Trying to get the same power from a slow revving engine would
cut engine life since the bearings would have to handle far higher
torque.

Yes, you would need approximately 5:1 gear reduction but that's well
within the range of a single stage planetary gear set. Would it last
at thst RPM? Why not? Motorcycles have gears.

Like all engine conversions, it's all in the details. Do the
engineering right and it'll work fine.

[Ralf Mueller]

Stu Fields wrote:
> "Anyolmouse" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Anyolmouse
>
> What kind of TBO is expected @ 12,000 rpm?? Some guy who has been playing
> with engines for quite awhile has a rule of thumb that says 4500 is a kind
> of mark for piston engines beyond which the durability starts decreasing
> more rapidly??? I haven't double checked this, but it makes some sense that
> the faster the piston engine spends the quicker it wears. There is several
> projects using the Yamaha 4stroke snowmobile engine that turns up around
> 12,000 for it's hp. Data should be available soon on their durability...

true for cast-iron cylinder barrels, not true for diamond-like hard
modern coatings.

here's a pic of the engine:
http://www.ph21.de/guest/1000RR.jpeg

[Philippe[_4_]]

Stu Fields a écrit:

> What kind of TBO is expected @ 12,000 rpm?? Some guy who has been
> playing with engines for quite awhile has a rule of thumb that says
> 4500 is a kind of mark for piston engines beyond which the durability
> starts decreasing more rapidly???

It's not the rpm but the piston speed which cause wear.
Bikes engines have very slow piston speed.
The challenge is the PSRU.

At this time, nobody built an alternate engine lighter than an
aircraft design engine.


--
une télé qui s'éteint et c'est un cerveau qui s'éveille
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Ralf Mueller]

Philippe wrote:
....
>
> At this time, nobody built an alternate engine lighter than an
> aircraft design engine.
>
>
are you joking? 193 HP @ <60 Kg that is turbine land.....

[Philippe[_4_]]

Ralf Mueller a écrit:

>>At this time, nobody built an alternate engine lighter than an
>> aircraft design engine.
>>
>>
> are you joking? 193 HP @ <60 Kg that is turbine land.....

Rendez-vous when this engine will fly....
At this time, yes, it is jokes.

This BMW engine is not easy to use, it'built on the same sheme than
japenese engines.

--
une télé qui s'éteint et c'est un cerveau qui s'éveille
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[bildan]

On Nov 27, 1:57*pm, Philippe > wrote:
> Ralf Mueller a écrit:
>
> >>At this time, nobody built an alternate engine lighter than an
> >> aircraft design engine.
>
> > are you joking? 193 HP @ <60 Kg that is turbine land.....
>
> * Rendez-vous when this engine will fly....
> *At this time, yes, it is jokes.
>
> *This BMW engine is not easy to use, it'built on the same sheme than
> japenese engines.
>
> --
> une télé qui s'éteint et c'est un cerveau qui s'éveille
> * * Philippe Vessaire *Ò¿Ó¬

Not sure about the BMW but most of these motorcycle in-line 4's have a
separate cylinder block and a split crankcase a la Lycoming/
Continental. All the expensive, hard to reverse engineer, power
tricks are in the cylinder block and heads.

So, learn about metallurgy and CNC machining. Make a custom crankcase
and crank for two in-line 4 blocks. Presto! A silky smooth, liquid
cooled, opposed 8 cyl 300 HP airplane engine. The motorcycle-type
balanced crank throws eliminate a need for a flywheel and the 5:1
planetary PSRU fits in the nose case.

2.0 liter is probably overkill so look for a 500cc in-line 4.

[Peter Dohm]

"Karl-Heinz Künzel" > wrote in message
...
> Morgans schrieb:
>> "Ralf Mueller" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine assembly
>>> is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm). Wouldn't
>>> that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))
>>
>> 193 HP ??? Are you positive about that number? I would like to see
>> where that number came from, if it is available on the net, if you
>> wouldn't mind.
>>
>> If it is correct, that should do rather nicely. People have flown BMW
>> bike engines in the past. I believe that most of the successful ones
>> have used a different gearbox to reduce the prop RPM. Seems to me that I
>> remember that they adapted a Rotax gearbox to the job, but I doubt that
>> there are any Rotax gearboxed that could handle 193 HP.
>
> Here in Germany we do have this BMW conversion ->
>
> http://www.takeoff-ul.de/pdf%27s/Description_TAKEOFF_engine_02-2006.pdf
>
> but those numbers are far away from 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm).
>
> KH
>
The spur gear system should work reliably provided that the centrifugal
clutch is on the engine side, rather than the propeller side, of the gears.

Peter

[cavelamb[_2_]]

bildan wrote:
> On Nov 27, 1:57 pm, Philippe > wrote:
>> Ralf Mueller a écrit:
>>
>>>> At this time, nobody built an alternate engine lighter than an
>>>> aircraft design engine.
>>> are you joking? 193 HP @ <60 Kg that is turbine land.....
>> Rendez-vous when this engine will fly....
>> At this time, yes, it is jokes.
>>
>> This BMW engine is not easy to use, it'built on the same sheme than
>> japenese engines.
>>
>> --
>> une télé qui s'éteint et c'est un cerveau qui s'éveille
>> Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬
>
> Not sure about the BMW but most of these motorcycle in-line 4's have a
> separate cylinder block and a split crankcase a la Lycoming/
> Continental. All the expensive, hard to reverse engineer, power
> tricks are in the cylinder block and heads.
>
> So, learn about metallurgy and CNC machining. Make a custom crankcase
> and crank for two in-line 4 blocks. Presto! A silky smooth, liquid
> cooled, opposed 8 cyl 300 HP airplane engine. The motorcycle-type
> balanced crank throws eliminate a need for a flywheel and the 5:1
> planetary PSRU fits in the nose case.
>
> 2.0 liter is probably overkill so look for a 500cc in-line 4.

How many engines have you built and flown?

[bildan]

On Nov 27, 5:22*pm, cavelamb > wrote:
> bildan wrote:
> > On Nov 27, 1:57 pm, Philippe * > wrote:
> >> Ralf Mueller a écrit:
>
> >>>> At this time, nobody built an alternate engine lighter than an
> >>>> aircraft design engine.
> >>> are you joking? 193 HP @ <60 Kg that is turbine land.....
> >> * Rendez-vous when this engine will fly....
> >> *At this time, yes, it is jokes.
>
> >> *This BMW engine is not easy to use, it'built on the same sheme than
> >> japenese engines.
>
> >> --
> >> une télé qui s'éteint et c'est un cerveau qui s'éveille
> >> * * Philippe Vessaire *Ò¿Ó¬
>
> > Not sure about the BMW but most of these motorcycle in-line 4's have a
> > separate cylinder block and a split crankcase a la Lycoming/
> > Continental. *All the expensive, hard to reverse engineer, power
> > tricks are in the cylinder block and heads.
>
> > So, learn about metallurgy and CNC machining. *Make a custom crankcase
> > and crank for two in-line 4 blocks. *Presto! *A silky smooth, liquid
> > cooled, opposed 8 cyl 300 HP airplane engine. *The motorcycle-type
> > balanced crank throws eliminate a need for a flywheel and the 5:1
> > planetary PSRU fits in the nose case.
>
> > 2.0 liter is probably overkill so look for a 500cc in-line 4.
>
> How many engines have you built and flown?

I've re-built and flown a lot of aircraft engines - including an
Allison V-1710. I've also built a lot of racing engines for both cars
and motorcycles. I understand the good and bad of each.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"stol" > wrote

> Bellt drives do just that.

Indeed, and they would be my favored means of PSRU. With this case, we are
talking about needing between a 4:1 or 5:1 reduction. That would make for a
mighty big big pulley. ;-)
--
Jim in NC

[stol]

On Nov 28, 9:40*am, "Morgans" > wrote:
> "stol" > wrote
>
> > Bellt drives do just that.
>
> Indeed, and they would be my favored means of PSRU. *With this case, we are
> talking about needing between a 4:1 or 5:1 reduction. *That would make for a
> mighty big big pulley. ;-)
> --
> Jim in NC

5-1 ,,,, Geez, that ain't no pulley... Thats a spinner with
grooves... <GG>

[Philippe[_4_]]

bildan a écrit:

> Molt Taylor was right. It's really hard to make a PSRU work well on
> any engine with less than 8 cylinders. That's one reason why I
> suggested fitting two small displacement, 4-cyl blocks together to
> make a flat-8.

A six cylinder in row or any engine with balance shaft may do the job.
Or, better, a Wankel....

I agree with the planetary gear (C6 from Ford transmission ?)

The chalange is always the dynamic comportement, vibrations may
cause severe overloads.

--
une télé qui s'éteint et c'est un cerveau qui s'éveille
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[bildan]

On Dec 3, 10:35*am, Philippe > wrote:
> bildan a écrit:
>
> > Molt Taylor was right. *It's really hard to make a PSRU work well on
> > any engine with less than 8 cylinders. *That's one reason why I
> > suggested fitting two small displacement, 4-cyl blocks together to
> > make a flat-8.
>
> * A six cylinder in row or any engine with balance shaft may do the job..
> Or, better, a Wankel....
>
> *I agree with the planetary gear (C6 from Ford transmission ?)
>
> The chalange is always the dynamic comportement, vibrations may
> cause severe overloads.
>
> --
> une télé qui s'éteint et c'est un cerveau qui s'éveille
> * * Philippe Vessaire *Ò¿Ó¬

There are planetary gear sets from every major auto maker in the world
so there are hundreds to choose from. The drag race guys sell beefed
up planetary units in any ratio you can think of.

I was thinking of 8 cylinders for another reason. It's very hard to
see how two spark plugs could fit in a cylinder head with 4 valves and
two overhead cams. A second strategy could be to run 4 cylinders with
one ignition system and the other 4 with a 2nd system. If one failed,
the engine would still run on 4 cylinders albeit with only ~30% power,
but that might enough to get me to an emergency landing field. A 6
cyl running on 3 might not.

[Philippe[_4_]]

bildan a écrit:

> It's very hard to
> see how two spark plugs could fit in a cylinder head with 4 valves and
> two overhead cams.

Check Mercedes engines: they have 2 spark plugs per cylinder
from 10 years either on V6 or V8 or V12...

--
une télé qui s'éteint et c'est un cerveau qui s'éveille
Philippe Vessaire Ò¿Ó¬

[Ralf Mueller]

here http://www.ph21.de/guest/1000RR.jpeg
is a pic of the engine

[[email protected]]

在 2009年11月27日星期五 UTC+8下�6:54:05，Ralf Mueller写�：
> just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine assembly
> is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm). Wouldn't
> that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))

Sell:
China Shenzhen ZHAOWEI Machinery & Electronics Co. Ltd engages in designing, manufacturing and marketing all kinds of electric motors. They are mainly suitable for the following applications: smart home application used in smart kitchen and laundry, medical instrument for personal care, smart E-transmission applied in automobile, industry automation applied in telecommunication and a great variety of plastic/metal planetary gearbox in different sizes.
In order to develop the oversea market, we are current seeking new partners around the world to create a bright future together. ZhaoWei is a right choice and excellent partnership with sincere services.

Company: Shenzhen ZHAOWEI Machinery & Electronics Co., Ltd
URL: http://www.zwgearbox.com/
Contact: Anny Liu
Tel：+86-755-27322652
Fax：+86-755-27323949

Add: Blk. 18, Longwangmiao Industry Park, Fuyong Tn., Bao’an Dist., Shenzhen 518103, Guangdong, China

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 02:29:12 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>? 2009?11?27???? UTC+8??6:54:05?Ralf Mueller???
>> just read about the new BMW S 1000 RR bike. The complete engine assembly
>> is less than 60 KG. Engine puts out 193HP (112 Nm, 12,000rpm). Wouldn't
>> that one (slightly detuned) make a nice SLA powerplant ;-))
>
>Sell:
>China Shenzhen ZHAOWEI Machinery & Electronics Co. Ltd engages in designing, manufacturing and marketing all kinds of electric motors. They are mainly suitable for the following applications: smart home application used in smart kitchen and laundry, medical instrument for personal care, smart E-transmission applied in automobile, industry automation applied in telecommunication and a great variety of plastic/metal planetary gearbox in different sizes.
> In order to develop the oversea market, we are current seeking new partners around the world to create a bright future together. ZhaoWei is a right choice and excellent partnership with sincere services.
>
>Company: Shenzhen ZHAOWEI Machinery & Electronics Co., Ltd
>URL: http://www.zwgearbox.com/
>Contact: Anny Liu
>Tel?+86-755-27322652
>Fax?+86-755-27323949

>Add: Blk. 18, Longwangmiao Industry Park, Fuyong Tn., Bao’an Dist., Shenzhen 518103, Guangdong, China
Possibly, but what horsepower can it produce at 3000 RPM? And if that
is not enough, what reduction gear assembly do you want to use?

And yes, BWM horizontal twins HAVE been used on light aircraft, along
with Citreon twins.