Re: Any opinions about this book about F-8s in Vietnam?

[John Randolph]

Actually, the F-4 had a higher kill ratio. It was a Navy F-4 that shot down
the first MIG and no F-8 guy ever achieved "ACE" status. Having posted that
fact I must admit that most of us who flew the F-4 are not particularly fond
of Randy "Airhead" Cunningham.

And always remember, never forget, it was T.R. Swartz that shot down a MIG
with an unguided 5" Zuni rocket while flying an A-4. Oh by the way, T.R.
was a Demon Driver (although he is loathe to admit it!). If you don't know
T.R. then you have never met a figher pilot.

John


"Mike Potter" > wrote in message
...
> Has anyone looked at Osprey Publishing's book _F-8 Crusader Units of the
> Vietnam War_? Is it worth buying?
>
> The marketing description from
>
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=P7244&ser=COM&per=36
> reads:
>
> F-8 Crusader Units of the Vietnam War
>
> US Price: $19.95
> UK Price: £12.99
>
> About this book
> Known to its pilots as the 'last of the gunfighters' due to its quartet
> of Colt-Browning Mk 12 20 mm cannon, the F-8 Crusader was numerically
> the most populous fighter in the US Navy at the start of America's
> involvement in the Vietnam conflict in 1964 – some 482 F-8C/D/Es
> equipped 17 frontline units. It enjoyed great success against North
> Vietnamese Mig-17s and Mig-21s during the Rolling Thunder campaign of
> 1965-68, officially downing 18 jets, which represented 53 per cent of
> all Mig claims lodged by Navy squadrons during this period.
>
> Contents
> # First Engagement
> # Setting Things Up
> # Making a War
> # Action in the Tonkin Gulf
> # War Begins in Ernest
> # MiG Killers
> # Assessing the Enemy
> # Beyond the MiGs
> # 'Leatherneck' Crusaders, 1965-68
> # Final Word
>

[Mike Weeks]

>From: Mike Potter
>Date: 7/13/2003 18:42 Pacific Daylight Time

>Has anyone looked at Osprey Publishing's book _F-8 Crusader Units of the
>Vietnam War_?

Yes

>Is it worth buying?

In a word, yes. Mersky normally does good work. Didn't spot anything to bitch
about in this attempt. Now, if you've got tons of other books on the F-8, then
it might not be what you need.

MW
-------------------------------------
"As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N. Luttwak

[Leadfoot]

"John Randolph" > wrote in message
news:%9oQa.6731$u51.954@fed1read05...
> Actually, the F-4 had a higher kill ratio. It was a Navy F-4 that shot
down
> the first MIG and no F-8 guy ever achieved "ACE" status. Having posted
that
> fact I must admit that most of us who flew the F-4 are not particularly
fond
> of Randy "Airhead" Cunningham.

I'm not particularly fond of him as a congressman. Why are you not fond of
him as an F-4 pilot?


>
> And always remember, never forget, it was T.R. Swartz that shot down a MIG
> with an unguided 5" Zuni rocket while flying an A-4. Oh by the way, T.R.
> was a Demon Driver (although he is loathe to admit it!). If you don't know
> T.R. then you have never met a figher pilot.
>
> John
>
>
> "Mike Potter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Has anyone looked at Osprey Publishing's book _F-8 Crusader Units of the
> > Vietnam War_? Is it worth buying?
> >
> > The marketing description from
> >
>
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=P7244&ser=COM&per=36
> > reads:
> >
> > F-8 Crusader Units of the Vietnam War
> >
> > US Price: $19.95
> > UK Price: £12.99
> >
> > About this book
> > Known to its pilots as the 'last of the gunfighters' due to its quartet
> > of Colt-Browning Mk 12 20 mm cannon, the F-8 Crusader was numerically
> > the most populous fighter in the US Navy at the start of America's
> > involvement in the Vietnam conflict in 1964 - some 482 F-8C/D/Es
> > equipped 17 frontline units. It enjoyed great success against North
> > Vietnamese Mig-17s and Mig-21s during the Rolling Thunder campaign of
> > 1965-68, officially downing 18 jets, which represented 53 per cent of
> > all Mig claims lodged by Navy squadrons during this period.
> >
> > Contents
> > # First Engagement
> > # Setting Things Up
> > # Making a War
> > # Action in the Tonkin Gulf
> > # War Begins in Ernest
> > # MiG Killers
> > # Assessing the Enemy
> > # Beyond the MiGs
> > # 'Leatherneck' Crusaders, 1965-68
> > # Final Word
> >
>
>

[Yofuri]

Was the higher kill ratio due to the GIB, or in spite of him?

And then, there was the "Jets Are for Kids" real gunfight:

http://skyraider.org/skyassn/sartapes/migkill/migkill.htm

Rick

--
My real e-mail address is:




"John Randolph" > wrote in message
news:%9oQa.6731$u51.954@fed1read05...
> Actually, the F-4 had a higher kill ratio. It was a Navy F-4 that shot
down
> the first MIG and no F-8 guy ever achieved "ACE" status. Having posted
that
> fact I must admit that most of us who flew the F-4 are not particularly
fond
> of Randy "Airhead" Cunningham.
>
> And always remember, never forget, it was T.R. Swartz that shot down a MIG
> with an unguided 5" Zuni rocket while flying an A-4. Oh by the way, T.R.
> was a Demon Driver (although he is loathe to admit it!). If you don't know
> T.R. then you have never met a figher pilot.
>
> John
>
>
> "Mike Potter" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Has anyone looked at Osprey Publishing's book _F-8 Crusader Units of the
> > Vietnam War_? Is it worth buying?
> >
> > The marketing description from
> >
>
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=P7244&ser=COM&per=36
> > reads:
> >
> > F-8 Crusader Units of the Vietnam War
> >
> > US Price: $19.95
> > UK Price: £12.99
> >
> > About this book
> > Known to its pilots as the 'last of the gunfighters' due to its quartet
> > of Colt-Browning Mk 12 20 mm cannon, the F-8 Crusader was numerically
> > the most populous fighter in the US Navy at the start of America's
> > involvement in the Vietnam conflict in 1964 - some 482 F-8C/D/Es
> > equipped 17 frontline units. It enjoyed great success against North
> > Vietnamese Mig-17s and Mig-21s during the Rolling Thunder campaign of
> > 1965-68, officially downing 18 jets, which represented 53 per cent of
> > all Mig claims lodged by Navy squadrons during this period.
> >
> > Contents
> > # First Engagement
> > # Setting Things Up
> > # Making a War
> > # Action in the Tonkin Gulf
> > # War Begins in Ernest
> > # MiG Killers
> > # Assessing the Enemy
> > # Beyond the MiGs
> > # 'Leatherneck' Crusaders, 1965-68
> > # Final Word
> >
>
>

[Guy Alcala]

John Randolph wrote:

> Actually, the F-4 had a higher kill ratio.

Er, no. F-8, 6:1 (18:3). Navy F-4, 5.42:1 (38:7), mainly due to the 1972-73
sprint by Top Gun trained crews. Of course, these are our numbers, and probably
include some overclaims as well as leave out some losses to MiGs that were
attributed to other threats or unknown causes.

Guy

[John Randolph]

Hmm... Your numbers are suspect. I'm off now to get mine. In the meantime
please verify.

"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> John Randolph wrote:
>
> > Actually, the F-4 had a higher kill ratio.
>
> Er, no. F-8, 6:1 (18:3). Navy F-4, 5.42:1 (38:7), mainly due to the
1972-73
> sprint by Top Gun trained crews. Of course, these are our numbers, and
probably
> include some overclaims as well as leave out some losses to MiGs that were
> attributed to other threats or unknown causes.
>
> Guy
>

[John Randolph]

Further research shows that the total (USAF + USN) MIG kill ration was 4:1.
Probably due to the fact that the F-8s were phased out midway through the
conflict.

"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> John Randolph wrote:
>
> > Actually, the F-4 had a higher kill ratio.
>
> Er, no. F-8, 6:1 (18:3). Navy F-4, 5.42:1 (38:7), mainly due to the
1972-73
> sprint by Top Gun trained crews. Of course, these are our numbers, and
probably
> include some overclaims as well as leave out some losses to MiGs that were
> attributed to other threats or unknown causes.
>
> Guy
>

[Guy Alcala]

John Randolph wrote:

> Hmm... Your numbers are suspect. I'm off now to get mine. In the meantime
> please verify.

Taken from Nicholls' and Tillman's "On Yankee Station," the nearest concise
source to hand. Nicholls probably got the numbers from the U.S.N.'s "Southeast
Asia Statisical Summary." I could also dig them out of "Clashes" or "and Kill
MiGs", but the results would be identical or nearly so.

Guy

[Guy Alcala]

John Randolph wrote:

> Further research shows that the total (USAF + USN) MIG kill ration was 4:1.
> Probably due to the fact that the F-8s were phased out midway through the
> conflict.

Not phased out, just reduced opportunities. The F-8s continued to fly from
SCB-27Cs until the end. BTW, USAF F-4 kill ratio for the war as a whole was
3.07:1 (107.5:35).

Guy

[Mike Weeks]

>From: Mike Potter
>Date: 7/13/2003 22:30 Pacific Daylight Time

>Thanks! No, I have little about F-8's. Books in the same series that
>interest me include the WW2 TBF/TBM by Berrett Tillman, and about USN
>F-4s during 1972-73, which of course was when Randy Cunningham became an
>ace.

Don't forget, Cunningham didn't become an ace solo ..., "Willy" Driscoll was
the RIO ... <g>

MW
-------------------------------------
"As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N. Luttwak

[John Carrier]

> Actually, the F-4 had a higher kill ratio. It was a Navy F-4 that shot
down
> the first MIG and no F-8 guy ever achieved "ACE" status. Having posted
that
> fact I must admit that most of us who flew the F-4 are not particularly
fond
> of Randy "Airhead" Cunningham.

Incorrect. The F-8 posted a 6:1 kill ratio (not counting the last Mig-17
that was a no ordnance expended kill ... given to the Hancock vice the
Crusader duo who engaged it). The F-4 was barely 2:1 until Topgun and 1972.
Then they ran at 12:1 (always the figure advertised) but the OVERALL figure
was around 5 point something.

Duke was an OK guy. Not the sharpest tool in the shed, but perhaps the
driver most dedicated to being prepared for an opportunity should it occur.
While others were reading Playboy on their alert 5's, Duker was running
switchology drills, reviewing missile envelopes, the whole nine yards. When
he came off a flak suppression run, he reset the gunsight to sidewinder
boresight (more than a few Migs escaped because the driver forgot to reset
the sight). He was a good, albeit not great driver (and would admit the
same).

At any rate as a TG instructor and later in VF-154 he never acted over the
top. Willy, OTOH, really started to believe he was somebody special.

Duke saw more Migs on 10 May 1972 than many air wings saw for the entire war
(CAG-19 comes to mind). Given that, he also capitalized on the opportunity.
(What is luck but when preparation meets opportunity?) In 1972, F-8's
couldn't BUY a vector or an engagement. The frustration of the time led to
the phrase, "A Mig at six is better than no Mig at all."

R / John

[Mike Weeks]

>From: "John Carrier"
>Date: 7/14/2003 13:17 Pacific Daylight Time

>At any rate as a TG instructor and later in VF-154 he never acted over the
>top. Willy, OTOH, really started to believe he was somebody special.

That's an interesting observation John When researching the history of VF-96
in the late 1980s I had the opposite impression.

Didn't interview either Duke or Willy, as the history wasn't the "Duke & Willy"
show, and there was plenty of available material for Connie's 71-72 cruise,
including all the MiG kills.

BTW, did interview Duke's first tour RIO ... He mentioned what you did about
Duke soaking up whatever he could, and they would fly any and all chances that
presented itself.

This isn't meant as an argument, just a general impression gained from some 15
years ago while researching.

Anyway ... <g>

MW
-------------------------------------
"As soon as movement begins, so does the fog of war" - Edward N. Luttwak

[Tiger]

Have not read this one, but this one is worth reading as well. "MIG MASTER:
The story of the F-8 Crusader" by Barrett Tillman. Naval Institute Press 2ed
1990.
It tells the good, bad, and odd about the F-8 from start to finish.
Interesting to note our "friends" the French Navy kept flying Crusaders till
they retired in 1999.


Mike Potter wrote:

> Has anyone looked at Osprey Publishing's book _F-8 Crusader Units of the
> Vietnam War_? Is it worth buying?
>
> The marketing description from
> http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php?title=P7244&ser=COM&per=36
> reads:
>
> F-8 Crusader Units of the Vietnam War
>
> US Price: $19.95
> UK Price: £12.99
>
> About this book
> Known to its pilots as the 'last of the gunfighters' due to its quartet
> of Colt-Browning Mk 12 20 mm cannon, the F-8 Crusader was numerically
> the most populous fighter in the US Navy at the start of America's
> involvement in the Vietnam conflict in 1964 ? some 482 F-8C/D/Es
> equipped 17 frontline units. It enjoyed great success against North
> Vietnamese Mig-17s and Mig-21s during the Rolling Thunder campaign of
> 1965-68, officially downing 18 jets, which represented 53 per cent of
> all Mig claims lodged by Navy squadrons during this period.
>
> Contents
> # First Engagement
> # Setting Things Up
> # Making a War
> # Action in the Tonkin Gulf
> # War Begins in Ernest
> # MiG Killers
> # Assessing the Enemy
> # Beyond the MiGs
> # 'Leatherneck' Crusaders, 1965-68
> # Final Word