Frozen Flaps

[Brian Whatcott]

I am still familiarizing with a newly acquired 150.
The other day I flew on a chilly evening just above freezing.
I applied flaps in the pattern, and when I landed, the flaps didn't want
to retract
I had earlier exercised the flaps on preflight without problem
and before the plane was put away, the flaps went up OK.

I guessed that the actuator froze up, so it probably needs lube to keep
the water away.... The flap motor fuse checked OK of course...

Any thoughts?

Brian W

[Scott Braddock]

brian whatcott wrote:
> I am still familiarizing with a newly acquired 150.
> The other day I flew on a chilly evening just above freezing.
> I applied flaps in the pattern, and when I landed, the flaps didn't want
> to retract
> I had earlier exercised the flaps on preflight without problem
> and before the plane was put away, the flaps went up OK.
>
> I guessed that the actuator froze up, so it probably needs lube to keep
> the water away.... The flap motor fuse checked OK of course...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Brian W

Brian,

The most common cause of "frozen flaps" in Cessnas like yours are the
limit switches on the flap actuator, rather than the actuator itself. A
judicious application of a heat gun, through the appropriate inspection
panel, will free them up for a while. They are relatively inexpensive
to replace, however, and that's what is needed for a more permanent fix.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

[[email protected]]

On Dec 13, 3:35 pm, Scott Braddock > wrote:

> The most common cause of "frozen flaps" in Cessnas like yours are the
> limit switches on the flap actuator, rather than the actuator itself. A
> judicious application of a heat gun, through the appropriate inspection
> panel, will free them up for a while. They are relatively inexpensive
> to replace, however, and that's what is needed for a more permanent fix.

Those little microswitches get oil in them from the jackscrew
threads, and the oil draws dust and crud and gunks up the switch
contacts with sludge. In the cold the sludge will congeal and make the
switch's mechanism stick, too. Replacing them is the best thing, and
you want to do it soon. If you had to abort a landing and go around,
the flaps on a 150/152 will hurt the climbout dangerously; there's
just too much drag.

Dan

[Gezellig]

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 03:02:00 -0500, Jeffrey Bloss wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 22:45:18 GMT, wrote:
>
>> On Dec 13, 3:35 pm, Scott Braddock > wrote:
>>
>>> The most common cause of "frozen flaps" in Cessnas like yours are
>>> the limit switches on the flap actuator, rather than the actuator
>>> itself. A judicious application of a heat gun, through the
>>> appropriate inspection panel, will free them up for a while.
>>> They are relatively inexpensive to replace, however, and that's
>>> what is needed for a more permanent fix.
>>
>> Those little microswitches get oil in them from the jackscrew
>> threads, and the oil draws dust and crud and gunks up the switch
>> contacts with sludge. In the cold the sludge will congeal and make
>> the switch's mechanism stick, too. Replacing them is the best
>> thing, and you want to do it soon. If you had to abort a landing
>> and go around, the flaps on a 150/152 will hurt the climbout
>> dangerously; there's just too much drag.
>
> There's too much jackscrew grease or the lube's spreading too easily if
> its getting to the switches. Get it right. Alaskan 261 was running a
> failing jackscrew which looked like lube drift.

I thought the 261 failed because it wasn't lubricated, maybe not. What
that has to do with a 150/2, I have no clue.

[Ross]

brian whatcott wrote:
> I am still familiarizing with a newly acquired 150.
> The other day I flew on a chilly evening just above freezing.
> I applied flaps in the pattern, and when I landed, the flaps didn't want
> to retract
> I had earlier exercised the flaps on preflight without problem
> and before the plane was put away, the flaps went up OK.
>
> I guessed that the actuator froze up, so it probably needs lube to keep
> the water away.... The flap motor fuse checked OK of course...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Brian W

When I had the Skyhawk and cleaning of relube of the jack screw for the
flaps was mandatory at annual. Has this been done? Or the motor can be
wearing out. the track on the flap rollers needs lubrication also.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold :(
KSWI

[Brian Whatcott]

wrote:
> On Dec 13, 3:35 pm, Scott Braddock > wrote:
>
>> The most common cause of "frozen flaps" in Cessnas like yours are the
>> limit switches on the flap actuator, rather than the actuator itself. A
>> judicious application of a heat gun, through the appropriate inspection
>> panel, will free them up for a while. They are relatively inexpensive
>> to replace, however, and that's what is needed for a more permanent fix.
>
> Those little microswitches get oil in them from the jackscrew
> threads, and the oil draws dust and crud and gunks up the switch
> contacts with sludge. In the cold the sludge will congeal and make the
> switch's mechanism stick, too. Replacing them is the best thing, and
> you want to do it soon. If you had to abort a landing and go around,
> the flaps on a 150/152 will hurt the climbout dangerously; there's
> just too much drag.
>
> Dan
>
>
Thanks to Scott and Dan for the insightful hints on flap limit switches.


Brian W

[[email protected]]

On Dec 14, 1:02*am, Jeffrey Bloss > wrote:

> There's too much jackscrew grease or the lube's spreading too easily if
> its getting to the switches. Get it right. Alaskan 261 was running a
> failing jackscrew which looked like lube drift.
> --

Huh. I wonder if you've ever had anything to do with these things?
Cessna calls for SAE 10 non-detergent oil on the jackscrew every 100
hours. The microswitches are mounted immediately below the jackscrew
and sooner or later the oil gets onto and into them. It's a poor
setup. The older airplanes get moly disulphide grease.

Alaska's problem was too little of the right lube. It was a stab
actuator jackscrew, not a flap jack, and once the screw's nut threads
failed the stab did its own thing. If a flap jackscrew fails it'll
either jam in some position or the flaps will retract. The airplane is
still flyable. Cessna has other flap problems, like the roller sleeves
slipping sideways on their bearings and cutting a disc out of the flap
support arm and causing flap jamming. There was an SB on that in '96
or so. The only bits on the flap itself that need a little oil are the
flap roller bearings, not the tracks. Oiling the tracks attracts dirt
and lets the rollers slip instead of roll and they'll get flat spots.

Dan

[Gezellig]

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 11:42:52 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

> On Dec 14, 1:02*am, Jeffrey Bloss > wrote:
>
>> There's too much jackscrew grease or the lube's spreading too easily if
>> its getting to the switches. Get it right. Alaskan 261 was running a
>> failing jackscrew which looked like lube drift.
>> --
>
> Huh. I wonder if you've ever had anything to do with these things?
> Cessna calls for SAE 10 non-detergent oil on the jackscrew every 100
> hours. The microswitches are mounted immediately below the jackscrew
> and sooner or later the oil gets onto and into them. It's a poor
> setup. The older airplanes get moly disulphide grease.
>
> Alaska's problem was too little of the right lube. It was a stab
> actuator jackscrew, not a flap jack, and once the screw's nut threads
> failed the stab did its own thing. If a flap jackscrew fails it'll
> either jam in some position or the flaps will retract. The airplane is
> still flyable. Cessna has other flap problems, like the roller sleeves
> slipping sideways on their bearings and cutting a disc out of the flap
> support arm and causing flap jamming. There was an SB on that in '96
> or so. The only bits on the flap itself that need a little oil are the
> flap roller bearings, not the tracks. Oiling the tracks attracts dirt
> and lets the rollers slip instead of roll and they'll get flat spots.
>
> Dan

Jeffrey's struggling, let's all bow and say a prayer for him :0)

[Brian Whatcott]

Ross wrote:

> When I had the Skyhawk and cleaning of relube of the jack screw for the
> flaps was mandatory at annual. Has this been done? Or the motor can be
> wearing out. the track on the flap rollers needs lubrication also.
>
Good question. I don't see a record of the jackscrew lube on the last
annual - but I haven't looked for it either....

Thanks

Brian W

[Mark]

On Dec 14, 2:42*pm, wrote:
> On Dec 14, 1:02*am, Jeffrey Bloss > wrote:
>
> > There's too much jackscrew grease or the lube's spreading too easily if
> > its getting to the switches. Get it right. Alaskan 261 was running a
> > failing jackscrew which looked like lube drift.
> > --
>
> * Huh. I wonder if you've ever had anything to do with these things?

> Dan

Hi Dan. What you wanna do is never respond to that poster
again, or better yet, killfile that name. It reads our posts,
runs to google to "brush up", then hurrys back to insult you.
Killfile it or don't ever read it or answer.

---
Mark

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:53:38 -0800 (PST), Mark wrote:

> On Dec 14, 2:42*pm, wrote:
>> On Dec 14, 1:02*am, Jeffrey Bloss > wrote:
>>
>>> There's too much jackscrew grease or the lube's spreading too easily if
>>> its getting to the switches. Get it right. Alaskan 261 was running a
>>> failing jackscrew which looked like lube drift.
>>> --
>>
>> * Huh. I wonder if you've ever had anything to do with these things?
>
>> Dan
>
> Hi Dan. What you wanna do is never respond to that poster
> again, or better yet, killfile that name. It reads our posts,
> runs to google to "brush up", then hurrys back to insult you.
> Killfile it or don't ever read it or answer.
>
> ---
> Mark

Better yet, dump both you loons into the killfile.

*PLONK*

[Mark]

On Dec 15, 9:23*am, Gezellig > wrote:

> Better yet, dump both you loons into the killfile.
>
> *PLONK*-

Sock puppet, I hope you did.

--
Mark

[Mark]

On Dec 15, 12:49*pm, a > wrote:

> Hmm. New purchase? Congratulations. In the insurance thread you wrote
> that you rented.

Yeah, that's the thing about being a liar, they can't
remember what they said. <laughing>

---
Mark

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
>
> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:53:38 -0800 (PST), Mark wrote:
>
> > On Dec 14, 2:42*pm, wrote:
> >> On Dec 14, 1:02*am, Jeffrey Bloss > wrote:
> >>
> >>> There's too much jackscrew grease or the lube's spreading too easily if
> >>> its getting to the switches. Get it right. Alaskan 261 was running a
> >>> failing jackscrew which looked like lube drift.
> >>> --
> >>
> >> * Huh. I wonder if you've ever had anything to do with these things?
> >
> >> Dan
> >
> > Hi Dan. What you wanna do is never respond to that poster
> > again, or better yet, killfile that name. It reads our posts,
> > runs to google to "brush up", then hurrys back to insult you.
> > Killfile it or don't ever read it or answer.
> >
> > ---
> > Mark
>
> Better yet, dump both you loons into the killfile.

Jeez, get with it man - did that weeks ago :)

--
Duncan.

[Gezellig]

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:55:57 +1300, Dave Doe wrote:

> In article >,
> says...
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 05:53:38 -0800 (PST), Mark wrote:
>>
>>> On Dec 14, 2:42*pm, wrote:
>>>> On Dec 14, 1:02*am, Jeffrey Bloss > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There's too much jackscrew grease or the lube's spreading too easily if
>>>>> its getting to the switches. Get it right. Alaskan 261 was running a
>>>>> failing jackscrew which looked like lube drift.
>>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> * Huh. I wonder if you've ever had anything to do with these things?
>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>
>>> Hi Dan. What you wanna do is never respond to that poster
>>> again, or better yet, killfile that name. It reads our posts,
>>> runs to google to "brush up", then hurrys back to insult you.
>>> Killfile it or don't ever read it or answer.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Mark
>>
>> Better yet, dump both you loons into the killfile.
>
> Jeez, get with it man - did that weeks ago :)

Duncan, a little sloooow over here :)

[Terry]

"brian whatcott" > wrote in message
...
>I am still familiarizing with a newly acquired 150.
> The other day I flew on a chilly evening just above freezing.
> I applied flaps in the pattern, and when I landed, the flaps didn't
> want to retract
> I had earlier exercised the flaps on preflight without problem
> and before the plane was put away, the flaps went up OK.
>
> I guessed that the actuator froze up, so it probably needs lube to
> keep the water away.... The flap motor fuse checked OK of course...
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Brian W


Hi Brian

Just thought I'd pass this along. You probably know all this
anyway but.....
I've never had a problem with the flaps on my Cessna 150F but I use
the
standard 10 downwind, 20 on base and keep it on 20 on final until I'm
close
enough to the numbers to check for deer, runway is clear etc before I
use the
30 flap setting and only if I need 30 which is rare. I know my C150
will fly with
20 degrees of flap. With 20 I can arrest the descent and climb out.
When doing T & G's always put your two eyes on the flaps to verify
they have gone back up before
lifting off the ground. May not seem like it but you have plenty of
time while accelerating. Just a quick glane out both sides. If one
doesn't look right
stay on the ground and shut it down. You don't want one flap handing
down on
climb out. Winter can cause unusal problems such as a piece of ice
getting
someplace it doesn't belong.

Just a few thoughts to pass along to all that read this newsgroup...

Terry N6401F

[Brian Whatcott]

Terry wrote:
>
> Hi Brian
>
> Just thought I'd pass this along. You probably know all this
> anyway but.....
> I've never had a problem with the flaps on my Cessna 150F but I use
> the
> standard 10 downwind, 20 on base and keep it on 20 on final until I'm
> close
> enough to the numbers to check for deer, runway is clear etc before I
> use the
> 30 flap setting and only if I need 30 which is rare. I know my C150
> will fly with
> 20 degrees of flap. With 20 I can arrest the descent and climb out.
> When doing T & G's always put your two eyes on the flaps to verify
> they have gone back up before
> lifting off the ground. May not seem like it but you have plenty of
> time while accelerating. Just a quick glane out both sides. If one
> doesn't look right
> stay on the ground and shut it down. You don't want one flap handing
> down on
> climb out. Winter can cause unusal problems such as a piece of ice
> getting
> someplace it doesn't belong.
>
> Just a few thoughts to pass along to all that read this newsgroup...
>
> Terry N6401F
>
>
Sounds good to me. I want to set about 15 deg flaps for landing,
having seen what 40 years of landings do to a tail tie down eye bolt -
its lower surface is about 40% its original thickness....
About deer: I hear some unicom chatter from a field 30 miles down the road:
* take care for the deer inside the fence line
* Those aren't deer they're hogs.
* There are deer AND hogs.

Which reminded me of the intelligence from the homeowner where I keep a
horse:
"deer are becoming a nuisance so the does are open every hunting dasy.
And I know a man at Dallas who will purchase live wild hogs - he fattens
them for the top drawer restaurant market as wild boar: which they are,
essentially...."

Brian W

[Robert Moore]

"Terry" wrote
>I know my C150 will fly with 20 degrees of flap.
>With 20 I can arrest the descent and climb out.

In fact Terry, FAR Part 23 requires that your aircraft and all of the
Cessna 150/152/172 series be able to execute a go-around at the maximum
flap setting at the maximum TOGW. This requirement is what actually sets
the maximum TOGW for these aircraft.
Several years back, Cessna was able to raise the Maximum TOGW of the C-
172 by 100 lbs by simply removing the 40 degree flap setting.

Section 23.77: Balked landing.
(a) Each normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating engine-
powered airplane at 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must be able to
maintain a steady gradient of climb at sea level of at least 3.3 percent
with-

(1) Takeoff power on each engine;

(2) The landing gear extended;

(3) The wing flaps in the landing position, except that if the flaps may
safely be retracted in two seconds or less without loss of altitude and
without sudden changes of angle of attack, they may be retracted; and

(4) A climb speed equal to VREF, as defined in 23.73(a).


Bob Moore, ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

[Terry]

"Robert Moore" > wrote in message
5.247...
> "Terry" wrote
>>I know my C150 will fly with 20 degrees of flap.
>>With 20 I can arrest the descent and climb out.
>
> In fact Terry, FAR Part 23 requires that your aircraft and all of
> the
> Cessna 150/152/172 series be able to execute a go-around at the
> maximum
> flap setting at the maximum TOGW. This requirement is what actually
> sets
> the maximum TOGW for these aircraft.
> Several years back, Cessna was able to raise the Maximum TOGW of the
> C-
> 172 by 100 lbs by simply removing the 40 degree flap setting.
>
> Section 23.77: Balked landing.
> (a) Each normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating
> engine-
> powered airplane at 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must be able
> to
> maintain a steady gradient of climb at sea level of at least 3.3
> percent
> with-
>
> (1) Takeoff power on each engine;
>
> (2) The landing gear extended;
>
> (3) The wing flaps in the landing position, except that if the flaps
> may
> safely be retracted in two seconds or less without loss of altitude
> and
> without sudden changes of angle of attack, they may be retracted;
> and
>
> (4) A climb speed equal to VREF, as defined in 23.73(a).
>
>
> Bob Moore, ATP CFI
> PanAm (retired)


Hi Bob

Your correct in every aspect. I know what my airplane is capable of
at or near gross. I know that I can climb at 30 degrees of flaps but
not the 40 degrees that my C150 has. I was just trying to put some
general guidelines into winter flying with an underpowered 100hp
engine. I don't know if a new student or experience pilot such as
yourself is reading this newsgroup. :) Have a nice Holiday Bob.

Terry N6401F

[[email protected]]

On Dec 17, 8:40*am, "Terry" > wrote:
> "Robert Moore" > wrote in message
>
> 5.247...
>
>
>
> > "Terry" wrote
> >>I know my C150 will fly with 20 degrees of flap.
> >>With 20 I can arrest the descent and climb out.
>
> > In fact Terry, FAR Part 23 requires that your aircraft and all of
> > the
> > Cessna 150/152/172 series be able to execute a go-around at the
> > maximum
> > flap setting at the maximum TOGW. This requirement is what actually
> > sets
> > the maximum TOGW for these aircraft.
> > Several years back, Cessna was able to raise the Maximum TOGW of the
> > C-
> > 172 by 100 lbs by simply removing the 40 degree flap setting.
>
> > Section 23.77: Balked landing.
> > (a) Each normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating
> > engine-
> > powered airplane at 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must be able
> > to
> > maintain a steady gradient of climb at sea level of at least 3.3
> > percent
> > with-
>
> > (1) Takeoff power on each engine;
>
> > (2) The landing gear extended;
>
> > (3) The wing flaps in the landing position, except that if the flaps
> > may
> > safely be retracted in two seconds or less without loss of altitude
> > and
> > without sudden changes of angle of attack, they may be retracted;
> > and
>
> > (4) A climb speed equal to VREF, as defined in 23.73(a).
>
> > Bob Moore, ATP CFI
> > PanAm (retired)
>
> Hi Bob
>
> Your correct in every aspect. *I know what my airplane is capable of
> at or near gross. I know that I can climb at 30 degrees of flaps but
> not the 40 degrees that my C150 has. I was just trying to put some
> general guidelines into winter flying with an underpowered 100hp
> engine. *I don't know if a new student or experience pilot such as
> yourself is reading this newsgroup. *:) *Have a nice Holiday Bob.
>
> Terry N6401F

That full-flap go-around requirement is likely based on
standard conditions. 15°C and sea level. Don't try it on a warm day
here at 3000' ASL or you'll end up in the crops.

Dan

[Gezellig]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 11:09:44 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

> On Dec 17, 8:40*am, "Terry" > wrote:
>> "Robert Moore" > wrote in message
>>
>> 5.247...
>>
>>
>>
>>> "Terry" wrote
>>>>I know my C150 will fly with 20 degrees of flap.
>>>>With 20 I can arrest the descent and climb out.
>>
>>> In fact Terry, FAR Part 23 requires that your aircraft and all of
>>> the
>>> Cessna 150/152/172 series be able to execute a go-around at the
>>> maximum
>>> flap setting at the maximum TOGW. This requirement is what actually
>>> sets
>>> the maximum TOGW for these aircraft.
>>> Several years back, Cessna was able to raise the Maximum TOGW of the
>>> C-
>>> 172 by 100 lbs by simply removing the 40 degree flap setting.
>>
>>> Section 23.77: Balked landing.
>>> (a) Each normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating
>>> engine-
>>> powered airplane at 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must be able
>>> to
>>> maintain a steady gradient of climb at sea level of at least 3.3
>>> percent
>>> with-
>>
>>> (1) Takeoff power on each engine;
>>
>>> (2) The landing gear extended;
>>
>>> (3) The wing flaps in the landing position, except that if the flaps
>>> may
>>> safely be retracted in two seconds or less without loss of altitude
>>> and
>>> without sudden changes of angle of attack, they may be retracted;
>>> and
>>
>>> (4) A climb speed equal to VREF, as defined in 23.73(a).
>>
>>> Bob Moore, ATP CFI
>>> PanAm (retired)
>>
>> Hi Bob
>>
>> Your correct in every aspect. *I know what my airplane is capable of
>> at or near gross. I know that I can climb at 30 degrees of flaps but
>> not the 40 degrees that my C150 has. I was just trying to put some
>> general guidelines into winter flying with an underpowered 100hp
>> engine. *I don't know if a new student or experience pilot such as
>> yourself is reading this newsgroup. *:) *Have a nice Holiday Bob.
>>
>> Terry N6401F
>
> That full-flap go-around requirement is likely based on
> standard conditions. 15°C and sea level.

It is.

>Don't try it on a warm day here at 3000' ASL or you'll end up
> in the crops.
>
> Dan

In my case, the salty drink.

[Ken S. Tucker]

On Dec 17, 7:40 am, "Terry" > wrote:
> "Robert Moore" > wrote in message
>
> 5.247...
>
>
>
> > "Terry" wrote
> >>I know my C150 will fly with 20 degrees of flap.
> >>With 20 I can arrest the descent and climb out.
>
> > In fact Terry, FAR Part 23 requires that your aircraft and all of
> > the
> > Cessna 150/152/172 series be able to execute a go-around at the
> > maximum
> > flap setting at the maximum TOGW. This requirement is what actually
> > sets
> > the maximum TOGW for these aircraft.
> > Several years back, Cessna was able to raise the Maximum TOGW of the
> > C-
> > 172 by 100 lbs by simply removing the 40 degree flap setting.
>
> > Section 23.77: Balked landing.
> > (a) Each normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating
> > engine-
> > powered airplane at 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must be able
> > to
> > maintain a steady gradient of climb at sea level of at least 3.3
> > percent
> > with-
>
> > (1) Takeoff power on each engine;
>
> > (2) The landing gear extended;
>
> > (3) The wing flaps in the landing position, except that if the flaps
> > may
> > safely be retracted in two seconds or less without loss of altitude
> > and
> > without sudden changes of angle of attack, they may be retracted;
> > and
>
> > (4) A climb speed equal to VREF, as defined in 23.73(a).
>
> > Bob Moore, ATP CFI
> > PanAm (retired)
>
> Hi Bob
>
> Your correct in every aspect. I know what my airplane is capable of
> at or near gross. I know that I can climb at 30 degrees of flaps but
> not the 40 degrees that my C150 has. I was just trying to put some
> general guidelines into winter flying with an underpowered 100hp
> engine. I don't know if a new student or experience pilot such as
> yourself is reading this newsgroup. :) Have a nice Holiday Bob.
> Terry N6401F

I flew a Cessna 150 that had 40 deg flap, which was a hoot,
the 152 only had 30 deg flaps.
Though I've never had a flap problem I'll add that under some
weather conditions, a cold a/c decending into humid air will
frost up, I feel that could freeze the flaps.
Ken

[[email protected]]

On Dec 17, 1:05*pm, "Ken S. Tucker" > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 7:40 am, "Terry" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Robert Moore" > wrote in message
>
> 5.247...
>
> > > "Terry" wrote
> > >>I know my C150 will fly with 20 degrees of flap.
> > >>With 20 I can arrest the descent and climb out.
>
> > > In fact Terry, FAR Part 23 requires that your aircraft and all of
> > > the
> > > Cessna 150/152/172 series be able to execute a go-around at the
> > > maximum
> > > flap setting at the maximum TOGW. This requirement is what actually
> > > sets
> > > the maximum TOGW for these aircraft.
> > > Several years back, Cessna was able to raise the Maximum TOGW of the
> > > C-
> > > 172 by 100 lbs by simply removing the 40 degree flap setting.
>
> > > Section 23.77: Balked landing.
> > > (a) Each normal, utility, and acrobatic category reciprocating
> > > engine-
> > > powered airplane at 6,000 pounds or less maximum weight must be able
> > > to
> > > maintain a steady gradient of climb at sea level of at least 3.3
> > > percent
> > > with-
>
> > > (1) Takeoff power on each engine;
>
> > > (2) The landing gear extended;
>
> > > (3) The wing flaps in the landing position, except that if the flaps
> > > may
> > > safely be retracted in two seconds or less without loss of altitude
> > > and
> > > without sudden changes of angle of attack, they may be retracted;
> > > and
>
> > > (4) A climb speed equal to VREF, as defined in 23.73(a).
>
> > > Bob Moore, ATP CFI
> > > PanAm (retired)
>
> > Hi Bob
>
> > Your correct in every aspect. *I know what my airplane is capable of
> > at or near gross. I know that I can climb at 30 degrees of flaps but
> > not the 40 degrees that my C150 has. I was just trying to put some
> > general guidelines into winter flying with an underpowered 100hp
> > engine. *I don't know if a new student or experience pilot such as
> > yourself is reading this newsgroup. *:) *Have a nice Holiday Bob.
> > Terry N6401F
>
> I flew a Cessna 150 that had 40 deg flap, which was a hoot,
> the 152 only had 30 deg flaps.
> Though I've never had a flap problem I'll add that under some
> weather conditions, a cold a/c decending into humid air will
> frost up, I feel that could freeze the flaps.
> Ken

Frost is a phenomenon that forms only in still air. And it
wouldn't freeze the flaps. For frost to form, the aircraft surface
cools through radiative cooling to below the air temperature when the
dewpoint and temp are really close. When there's much wind the
aircraft surface is kept at air temp through convection. Some old
pilots used to burn off light frost just by taking off. That's now
illegal in Canada.

Ice, on the other hand, can form in flight but that flight has to
be into fog or cloud or rain consisting of supercooled water droplets,
which are below the freezing point but still liquid. Water can exist
as a liquid down to -20°C. The airplane's surface will be below
freezing because of the air temp, and any change in air temp will
change the very light aircraft structure's temperature quickly.

Dan

[Morgans[_2_]]

> wrote

> The airplane's surface will be below
> freezing because of the air temp, and any change in air temp will
> change the very light aircraft structure's temperature quickly.

Dan,

Ken is back. He is afraid of flying anything but Microsoft Simulators.

I have a feeling he is the same poster as Flaps50 and Flaps, or whoever the
troll of a name close to that uses.

Best advice is to ignore. He knows nothing of real airplanes, but likes to
pretend that he does. I guess he has to be called down when he gives unsafe
advice, though.

I'll have to put him back in the kill file, since he snuck back in after my
reformatting.
--
Jim in NC

[Cliveden Chew Haas]

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:05:58 -0800 (PST), Ken S. Tucker wrote:

> Ken caught trolling as Mark aka Marcus Aurelius

Mark(ie) on Mark(ie):

Retired aka lazy, bored and too stupid to do **** anymore - "I've since
moved on to guitars, turbojets, alternative energy, and Victory
gardens."~sci.physics

Obese - "I have my own weight issues" ~misc.news.internet.discuss

Troll/Forger - Admitted ~rec.aviation.piloting

Philosopher - "Most people live lives of quiet desperation."
~alt.support.depression.manic

BiPolar FukkNutzoid - "Its really less about how we got this way, and
more about who we're going to become." ~alt.support.depression.manic

Claims To Be Uber-Wealthy - "It's only $500,000 dollars..."
~misc.writing

Brilliance...In His Own Mind - "But what makes me a creative genius.."
~misc.writing

Founder of Art Academy - "Nor was it when I founded a school of the arts
in my name..." ~misc.writing

National Politician and Grand Entreprenuer - "convincing the chairman of
the bank and head of the Georgia Republican party to fly to Washington,
D.C. and within 3 days bring me a Small Business Admin.check for 350
thousand dollars." ~misc.writing

Loved By Celebrities - "Mark Who Was Invited By Elvis To Graceland"
~signature several newsgroups

****sman - "Some cute little brunette named Tammy steal her boyfriend's
car and credit cards and put me up on the 14th floor of the "Yachtsman"
for a week in Myrtle Beach, while spending thousands by day, and
smoking the sheets by night." ~misc.writing

Google Profile - "I am a Renaissance Man. I'm still attempting things
people think are impossible. I'm a dichotomy, a soft diamond, a
militaristic saint, and always a very wise fool."

--
Oh, the excitement!
http://tr.im/1f9b

[Mark]

On Dec 18, 10:52*am, Cliveden Chew Haas >
wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:05:58 -0800 (PST), Ken S. Tucker wrote:
> > Ken caught trolling as Mark aka Marcus Aurelius
>
> Mark(ie) on Mark(ie):
>
> Retired aka lazy, bored and too stupid to do **** anymore - "I've since
> moved on to guitars, turbojets, alternative energy, and Victory
> gardens."~sci.physics
>
> Obese - "I have my own weight issues" ~misc.news.internet.discuss
>
> Troll/Forger - Admitted ~rec.aviation.piloting
>
> Philosopher - "Most people live lives of quiet desperation."
> ~alt.support.depression.manic
>
> BiPolar FukkNutzoid - "Its really less about how we got this way, and
> more about who we're going to become." ~alt.support.depression.manic
>
> Claims To Be Uber-Wealthy - "It's only $500,000 dollars..."
> ~misc.writing
>
> Brilliance...In His Own Mind - "But what makes me a creative genius.."
> ~misc.writing
>
> Founder of Art Academy - "Nor was it when I founded a school of the arts
> in my name..." ~misc.writing
>
> National Politician and Grand Entreprenuer - "convincing the chairman of
> the bank and head of the Georgia Republican party to fly to Washington,
> D.C. and within 3 days bring me a Small Business Admin.check for 350
> thousand dollars." ~misc.writing
>
> Loved By Celebrities - "Mark Who Was Invited By Elvis To Graceland"
> ~signature several newsgroups
>
> ****sman - "Some cute little brunette named Tammy steal her boyfriend's
> car and credit cards and put me up on the 14th floor of the "Yachtsman"
> for a week in Myrtle Beach, while spending thousands by day, and
> smoking the sheets by night." ~misc.writing
>
> Google Profile - "I am a Renaissance Man. I'm still attempting things
> people think are impossible. I'm a dichotomy, a soft diamond, a
> militaristic saint, and always a very wise fool."
>
> --
> Oh, the excitement!http://tr.im/1f9b

How fascinating. Tell us more about Me. What else
have I done? I hope it's as exciting as this post!

Next time make my dick 2 feet long. OK?

---
Mark

[RC_Moonpie]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 10:52:47 -0500, Cliveden Chew Haas wrote:

> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:05:58 -0800 (PST), Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>
>> Ken caught trolling as Mark aka Marcus Aurelius
>
> Mark(ie) on Mark(ie):
>
> Retired aka lazy, bored and too stupid to do **** anymore - "I've since
> moved on to guitars, turbojets, alternative energy, and Victory
> gardens."~sci.physics
>
> Obese - "I have my own weight issues" ~misc.news.internet.discuss
>
> Troll/Forger - Admitted ~rec.aviation.piloting
>
> Philosopher - "Most people live lives of quiet desperation."
> ~alt.support.depression.manic
>
> BiPolar FukkNutzoid - "Its really less about how we got this way, and
> more about who we're going to become." ~alt.support.depression.manic
>
> Claims To Be Uber-Wealthy - "It's only $500,000 dollars..."
> ~misc.writing
>
> Brilliance...In His Own Mind - "But what makes me a creative genius.."
> ~misc.writing
>
> Founder of Art Academy - "Nor was it when I founded a school of the arts
> in my name..." ~misc.writing
>
> National Politician and Grand Entreprenuer - "convincing the chairman of
> the bank and head of the Georgia Republican party to fly to Washington,
> D.C. and within 3 days bring me a Small Business Admin.check for 350
> thousand dollars." ~misc.writing
>
> Loved By Celebrities - "Mark Who Was Invited By Elvis To Graceland"
> ~signature several newsgroups
>
> ****sman - "Some cute little brunette named Tammy steal her boyfriend's
> car and credit cards and put me up on the 14th floor of the "Yachtsman"
> for a week in Myrtle Beach, while spending thousands by day, and
> smoking the sheets by night." ~misc.writing
>
> Google Profile - "I am a Renaissance Man. I'm still attempting things
> people think are impossible. I'm a dichotomy, a soft diamond, a
> militaristic saint, and always a very wise fool."

heh

What a tool.

[the extremophile]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 09:05:09 -0800 (PST), Mark wrote:

> On Dec 18, 10:52*am, Cliveden Chew Haas >
> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 12:05:58 -0800 (PST), Ken S. Tucker wrote:
>>> Ken caught trolling as Mark aka Marcus Aurelius
>>
>> Mark(ie) on Mark(ie):
>>
>> Retired aka lazy, bored and too stupid to do **** anymore - "I've since
>> moved on to guitars, turbojets, alternative energy, and Victory
>> gardens."~sci.physics
>>
>> Obese - "I have my own weight issues" ~misc.news.internet.discuss
>>
>> Troll/Forger - Admitted ~rec.aviation.piloting
>>
>> Philosopher - "Most people live lives of quiet desperation."
>> ~alt.support.depression.manic
>>
>> BiPolar FukkNutzoid - "Its really less about how we got this way, and
>> more about who we're going to become." ~alt.support.depression.manic
>>
>> Claims To Be Uber-Wealthy - "It's only $500,000 dollars..."
>> ~misc.writing
>>
>> Brilliance...In His Own Mind - "But what makes me a creative genius.."
>> ~misc.writing
>>
>> Founder of Art Academy - "Nor was it when I founded a school of the arts
>> in my name..." ~misc.writing
>>
>> National Politician and Grand Entreprenuer - "convincing the chairman of
>> the bank and head of the Georgia Republican party to fly to Washington,
>> D.C. and within 3 days bring me a Small Business Admin.check for 350
>> thousand dollars." ~misc.writing
>>
>> Loved By Celebrities - "Mark Who Was Invited By Elvis To Graceland"
>> ~signature several newsgroups
>>
>> ****sman - "Some cute little brunette named Tammy steal her boyfriend's
>> car and credit cards and put me up on the 14th floor of the "Yachtsman"
>> for a week in Myrtle Beach, while spending thousands by day, and
>> smoking the sheets by night." ~misc.writing
>>
>> Google Profile - "I am a Renaissance Man. I'm still attempting things
>> people think are impossible. I'm a dichotomy, a soft diamond, a
>> militaristic saint, and always a very wise fool."
>>
>> --
>> Oh, the excitement!http://tr.im/1f9b
>
> How fascinating. Tell us more about Me.

*PLONK* Mark, the Xposting asswipe.