Glider rides

[BDS]

I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking into
the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
insurance impact.

Our present understanding is that both the tow plane and the glider would
need to have 100-hr inspections and that the pilots of the tow plane and the
glider would need to have a commercial rating as well as a second class
medical for the towplane pilot.

However, we are uncertain as to some of the other regulations such as
compliance with drug testing and the requirement for an LOA for this type of
operation, since it appears that there may be some exceptions when it comes
to gliders.

Can someone with experience in this area help to shed some light on these
aspects as well as anything else that we should be aware of?

Thanks.

Bruce

[Tony V]

bds wrote:
> I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
> rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
> financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking into
> the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
> insurance impact.


Clearly (to me), you need the advice of an aviation attorney.

That said, Some clubs offer "rides" to the public as "introductory
lessons". The fee includes a one day temporary membership. The new club
member is then taken for a glider flight. Dunno if the FAA (assuming
US)or insurance company go along with this.

Tony V.
http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

[Scott[_7_]]

Tony V wrote:

>
>
> Clearly (to me), you need the advice of an aviation attorney.
>
> That said, Some clubs offer "rides" to the public as "introductory
> lessons". The fee includes a one day temporary membership. The new club
> member is then taken for a glider flight. Dunno if the FAA (assuming
> US)or insurance company go along with this.
>
> Tony V.
> http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING

Well, I don't know why they wouldn't if the "rider" gets a log book with
an entry as dual training. As long as the glider pilot is an
instructor...the side benefit is that is they really like it, they may
pursue learning to fly and drop even more money into the club's lap :)

I know that worked for me ;)

[BT]

Many clubs offer rides to the public. The insurance carrier carries the
heaviest rules.

The FAA does not require the tow pilot to hold a commercial rating or
maintain a Class II medical. There are many discussions in this area to
include the FAA FAQ File. The tow plane is not the "carriage of persons for
hire", the glider is. The insurance company may and has required the tow
pilot to hold commercial ratings and thus a Class II Medical. The insurance
carrier may now require that you carry "commercial insurance" on all club
aircraft, tow plane and all gliders owned by the club, not just the gliders
used to provide rides.

Dependent on where you operate and your "operating or lease agreement" with
the airport management, you may be required to amend your lease or operating
permit to include a business. As a Club, most operating agreements are "flat
fee" to the airport for tiedowns, hanger space or ground lease for a club
house etc. As a "business offering rides to the general public", the airport
management may now consider you a business, holding out to the public. Many
airport leases are written to include a percentage of the gross income which
could include all income to the club from dues and members rental fees plus
the income received from the public rides.

BT


"bds" > wrote in message ...
>I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
> rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
> financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking
> into
> the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
> insurance impact.
>
> Our present understanding is that both the tow plane and the glider would
> need to have 100-hr inspections and that the pilots of the tow plane and
> the
> glider would need to have a commercial rating as well as a second class
> medical for the towplane pilot.
>
> However, we are uncertain as to some of the other regulations such as
> compliance with drug testing and the requirement for an LOA for this type
> of
> operation, since it appears that there may be some exceptions when it
> comes
> to gliders.
>
> Can someone with experience in this area help to shed some light on these
> aspects as well as anything else that we should be aware of?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
>

[Alistair Wright]

Well, in my day (the 60's and 70's) in the UK we just made passengers sign
an indemnity form absolving the club from any reponsibility for accident or
injury or loss. Known as 'blood chits', these seemed to satisfy whatever
rules were in force at the time, since the BGA must have been aware of the
practice - every club was doing it. I seem to recall that some instructions
eventually came down from on high about briefing passengers on how to use
their parachute, and what would happen if it was necessary to abandon the
glider. I used to give these instructions and then add " If I say jump,
don't say pardon?, because I won't be around for a discussion". I never flew
passengers at a club that did not own or rent their site exclusively, so
'operating a business' never arose. Needless to say I never had to jump, and
I don't think anyone else ever did either.

Alistair W

[BT]

"Scott" > wrote in message
.. .
> Tony V wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Clearly (to me), you need the advice of an aviation attorney.
>>
>> That said, Some clubs offer "rides" to the public as "introductory
>> lessons". The fee includes a one day temporary membership. The new club
>> member is then taken for a glider flight. Dunno if the FAA (assuming
>> US)or insurance company go along with this.
>>
>> Tony V.
>> http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/SOARING
>
> Well, I don't know why they wouldn't if the "rider" gets a log book with
> an entry as dual training. As long as the glider pilot is an
> instructor...the side benefit is that is they really like it, they may
> pursue learning to fly and drop even more money into the club's lap :)
>
> I know that worked for me ;)
>
Dependent on how the club's insurance is set up.
Don't advertise.. walk up's interested in learning to fly.. careful
explanations that it is a flying club.
Ride must be with a CFIG, not just any club member or commercial pilot.
Direct obvious bungee jumpers to the local commercial ride for hire
operation, if there is one.

[BT]

This is no longer the 60s or 70s, but the (almost 2010s) with a society that
thinks nothing of posting a lawsuit for personal injury because you yelled
at them to get out of the way of a landing aircraft after you already told
them not to be were they are.

Very few glider clubs in the US have sole use or ownership of the airfield
where they are at.

"Alistair Wright" > wrote in message
...
> Well, in my day (the 60's and 70's) in the UK we just made passengers sign
> an indemnity form absolving the club from any reponsibility for accident
> or injury or loss. Known as 'blood chits', these seemed to satisfy
> whatever rules were in force at the time, since the BGA must have been
> aware of the practice - every club was doing it. I seem to recall that
> some instructions eventually came down from on high about briefing
> passengers on how to use their parachute, and what would happen if it was
> necessary to abandon the glider. I used to give these instructions and
> then add " If I say jump, don't say pardon?, because I won't be around
> for a discussion". I never flew passengers at a club that did not own or
> rent their site exclusively, so 'operating a business' never arose.
> Needless to say I never had to jump, and I don't think anyone else ever
> did either.
>
> Alistair W
>
>

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Alistair Wright" > wrote

> Well, in my day (the 60's and 70's) in the UK we just made passengers sign
> an indemnity form absolving the club from any reponsibility for accident
> or injury or loss. Known as 'blood chits', these seemed to satisfy
> whatever rules were in force at the time, since the BGA must have been
> aware of the practice - every club was doing it.

Not worth the paper they are written on, in the US.

The way it was explained to me, was that even if you signed away your rights
to not hold them responsible, you can not sign away the rights of your
spouse and family for suing you, for you being responsible for getting the
person killed or severely injured.
--
Jim in NC

[Chris Reed[_2_]]

Morgans wrote:
> "Alistair Wright" > wrote
>
>> Well, in my day (the 60's and 70's) in the UK we just made passengers sign
>> an indemnity form absolving the club from any reponsibility for accident
>> or injury or loss.

<snip>

>
> Not worth the paper they are written on, in the US.
>
Even in the 60s they weren't worth the paper they were written on in the
UK either.

The most important thing is insurance - once you've got that sorted with
your insurers, the rest is comparatively easy.

If becoming a business is a problem, as it is in the UK, then it's easy
to make the flight a non-commercial flight. You do this by calculating
the pure flying costs (launch cost + glider hire/airtime) and then
calculating the length of membership to cover the rest of the fee.

Example: ride cost = 100, annual membership = 500, pure flying costs =
65, remainder buys 35/500 of a year's membership. Round it up to a
month's membership and you're making a notional loss, and thus not
providing a commercial flight. To be certain, make the flight an
instructional flight - this makes it more interesting for the ride, and
if they don't want to touch the controls you can still explain what is
happening and why and thus provide instruction.

In practice you will never see 90% of your glider rides again. 9% will
turn up once more and pay for another flight, but decide that the
waiting around with the ordinary clube members (of whom they are now
one) is too dull to come again. 1% will be hooked like I was.

The thing to guard against is allowing the glider rides (trial lessons
in UK-speak) to rule the operation. This almost happened in the club to
which I belonged, and if long-standing members lose the chance to fly
because you are giving preference to glider rides then the club could
quite swiftly disintegrate. It's not a bad practice to restrict
introductory flights to the non-soaring part of the day, which also
makes it easier for the first-time maybe pilot to achieve some measure
of control of the aircraft without those pesky thermals pushing him or
her all over the sky.

[CindyB]

Bruce:

I am presuming you are writing from the US, since you reference
drug testing and LOAs in your questions. I am only aware of these
types of programs in the US.

You can contact your SSA regional director for some of these answers,
and they will also say many of the same things reported here.

Your insurance carrier can answer many questions directly
for you. A change in service, to allow more services by you to the
public, will likely change your rates for coverage, and tell you who
will be allowed to fly which machines. Insurance coverage of clubs
in the US is more restrictive to many of your actions than the FARs.

There is a big difference in risks, required pilot certificates and
premiums depending on whether you do only rides versus
introductory lesson flights. Passenger rides do not include
allowing the passenger to handle the flight controls, by most
insurance.

Towplanes typically do not carry passengers while towing.
What they drag behind them is not 'the tug carrying a passenger'.
SSA effected that formal interpretation from the FAA in about
1972. For climb performance and non-distractions while towing,
most towing operations will not carry anyone aboard that machine
except the towing staff. Hence that machine won't need 100-hr
inspections. Most insurance excludes having passengers aboard
a tug while towing.

Depending on your insurance coverage, you may or may not need
a commercial pilot for the tug. A minimum of a private certificate is
required for towing by the FARS, and an appropriate endorsement by
two different persons.

For a ride in the glider you need a commercial glider pilot, if
you are charging money for that service.
You will not need a drug testing program for the commercial
glider pilot, as this is another case of SSA success in regulatory
negotiations. When you read the drug testing regulations for
'scenic rides', please notice the difference between
aircraft and airplanes. This minor vocabulary difference is
deliberate.

Glider instructors are exempted from terrorist-threat identification
training, and random drug test training, by action of the SSA with the
FAA. Glider students are exempt from background checking and
nationality proof requirements, due to ???? yes, SSA.


There is a lot of support within SSA for organizational help to
Chapter clubs through the Chapter Committee. You can use the
link after you log in as an SSA member.
http://www.ssa.org/members/governance/VolunteersDetail.asp?group=36

The other responder who mentions balancing the allocation of flight
access
between established and potential members illuminates a tricky point.
Good business plans, models from other clubs, and advice from
several sources will allow your group to make informed decisions.

An attorney might be of help, but much of this can be accomplished
without forking over fees needlessly. Waivers are helpful mostly in
making folks believe they shouldn't pursue frivolous legal action, not
for their
actual legal weight or value. Good operational practices obviate the
majority of needs for legal defense.



Best wishes,

Cindy B
Region 12 SSA Director



On Dec 13, 9:27*am, "bds" > wrote:
> I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
> rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
> financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking into
> the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
> insurance impact.
>
> Our present understanding is that both the tow plane and the glider would
> need to have 100-hr inspections and that the pilots of the tow plane and the
> glider would need to have a commercial rating as well as a second class
> medical for the towplane pilot.
>
> However, we are uncertain as to some of the other regulations such as
> compliance with drug testing and the requirement for an LOA for this type of
> operation, since it appears that there may be some exceptions when it comes
> to gliders.
>
> Can someone with experience in this area help to shed some light on these
> aspects as well as anything else that we should be aware of?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bruce

[BDS]

Thanks to everyone who responded with information to help us sort through
this.

Yes, we are in the US and most of the information that has been floating
around the club with respect to this is apparently bad. That said, we have
been told by our insurer that giving what really amounts to rides under the
guise of an introductory flight or temporary club membership would be
treated as a commercial situation, and if something should happen it would
not be covered by our club level insurance. In other words, if it smells
commercial it is commercial regardless of what name you put on it.

As to the regs, my preliminary research tended to indicate that the club's
past understanding of many of the requirements involved were incorrect, but
I wanted to be certain that I wasn't overlooking something in between all
the exceptions and typical FAA wording, as well as the "intent" of the regs
which occasionally enters into these kinds of situations. It is good to
have the background on the involvement of the SSA in all of this.

Thanks again for the help.

Bruce


"CindyB" > wrote in message
...

Bruce:

I am presuming you are writing from the US, since you reference
drug testing and LOAs in your questions. I am only aware of these
types of programs in the US.

You can contact your SSA regional director for some of these answers,
and they will also say many of the same things reported here.

Your insurance carrier can answer many questions directly
for you. A change in service, to allow more services by you to the
public, will likely change your rates for coverage, and tell you who
will be allowed to fly which machines. Insurance coverage of clubs
in the US is more restrictive to many of your actions than the FARs.

There is a big difference in risks, required pilot certificates and
premiums depending on whether you do only rides versus
introductory lesson flights. Passenger rides do not include
allowing the passenger to handle the flight controls, by most
insurance.

Towplanes typically do not carry passengers while towing.
What they drag behind them is not 'the tug carrying a passenger'.
SSA effected that formal interpretation from the FAA in about
1972. For climb performance and non-distractions while towing,
most towing operations will not carry anyone aboard that machine
except the towing staff. Hence that machine won't need 100-hr
inspections. Most insurance excludes having passengers aboard
a tug while towing.

Depending on your insurance coverage, you may or may not need
a commercial pilot for the tug. A minimum of a private certificate is
required for towing by the FARS, and an appropriate endorsement by
two different persons.

For a ride in the glider you need a commercial glider pilot, if
you are charging money for that service.
You will not need a drug testing program for the commercial
glider pilot, as this is another case of SSA success in regulatory
negotiations. When you read the drug testing regulations for
'scenic rides', please notice the difference between
aircraft and airplanes. This minor vocabulary difference is
deliberate.

Glider instructors are exempted from terrorist-threat identification
training, and random drug test training, by action of the SSA with the
FAA. Glider students are exempt from background checking and
nationality proof requirements, due to ???? yes, SSA.


There is a lot of support within SSA for organizational help to
Chapter clubs through the Chapter Committee. You can use the
link after you log in as an SSA member.
http://www.ssa.org/members/governance/VolunteersDetail.asp?group=36

The other responder who mentions balancing the allocation of flight
access
between established and potential members illuminates a tricky point.
Good business plans, models from other clubs, and advice from
several sources will allow your group to make informed decisions.

An attorney might be of help, but much of this can be accomplished
without forking over fees needlessly. Waivers are helpful mostly in
making folks believe they shouldn't pursue frivolous legal action, not
for their
actual legal weight or value. Good operational practices obviate the
majority of needs for legal defense.



Best wishes,

Cindy B
Region 12 SSA Director



On Dec 13, 9:27 am, "bds" > wrote:
> I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
> rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
> financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking
> into
> the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
> insurance impact.
>
> Our present understanding is that both the tow plane and the glider would
> need to have 100-hr inspections and that the pilots of the tow plane and
> the
> glider would need to have a commercial rating as well as a second class
> medical for the towplane pilot.
>
> However, we are uncertain as to some of the other regulations such as
> compliance with drug testing and the requirement for an LOA for this type
> of
> operation, since it appears that there may be some exceptions when it
> comes
> to gliders.
>
> Can someone with experience in this area help to shed some light on these
> aspects as well as anything else that we should be aware of?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bruce

[BDS]

Thanks to everyone who responded with information to help us sort through
this.

Yes, we are in the US and most of the information that has been floating
around the club with respect to this is apparently bad. That said, we have
been told by our insurer that giving what really amounts to rides under the
guise of an introductory flight or temporary club membership would be
treated as a commercial situation, and if something should happen it would
not be covered by our club level insurance. In other words, if it smells
commercial it is commercial regardless of what name you put on it.

As to the regs, my preliminary research tended to indicate that the club's
past understanding of many of the requirements involved were incorrect, but
I wanted to be certain that I wasn't overlooking something in between all
the exceptions and typical FAA wording, as well as the "intent" of the regs
which occasionally enters into these kinds of situations. It is good to
have the background on the involvement of the SSA in all of this.

Thanks again for the help.

Bruce


"CindyB" > wrote in message
...

Bruce:

I am presuming you are writing from the US, since you reference
drug testing and LOAs in your questions. I am only aware of these
types of programs in the US.

You can contact your SSA regional director for some of these answers,
and they will also say many of the same things reported here.

Your insurance carrier can answer many questions directly
for you. A change in service, to allow more services by you to the
public, will likely change your rates for coverage, and tell you who
will be allowed to fly which machines. Insurance coverage of clubs
in the US is more restrictive to many of your actions than the FARs.

There is a big difference in risks, required pilot certificates and
premiums depending on whether you do only rides versus
introductory lesson flights. Passenger rides do not include
allowing the passenger to handle the flight controls, by most
insurance.

Towplanes typically do not carry passengers while towing.
What they drag behind them is not 'the tug carrying a passenger'.
SSA effected that formal interpretation from the FAA in about
1972. For climb performance and non-distractions while towing,
most towing operations will not carry anyone aboard that machine
except the towing staff. Hence that machine won't need 100-hr
inspections. Most insurance excludes having passengers aboard
a tug while towing.

Depending on your insurance coverage, you may or may not need
a commercial pilot for the tug. A minimum of a private certificate is
required for towing by the FARS, and an appropriate endorsement by
two different persons.

For a ride in the glider you need a commercial glider pilot, if
you are charging money for that service.
You will not need a drug testing program for the commercial
glider pilot, as this is another case of SSA success in regulatory
negotiations. When you read the drug testing regulations for
'scenic rides', please notice the difference between
aircraft and airplanes. This minor vocabulary difference is
deliberate.

Glider instructors are exempted from terrorist-threat identification
training, and random drug test training, by action of the SSA with the
FAA. Glider students are exempt from background checking and
nationality proof requirements, due to ???? yes, SSA.


There is a lot of support within SSA for organizational help to
Chapter clubs through the Chapter Committee. You can use the
link after you log in as an SSA member.
http://www.ssa.org/members/governance/VolunteersDetail.asp?group=36

The other responder who mentions balancing the allocation of flight
access
between established and potential members illuminates a tricky point.
Good business plans, models from other clubs, and advice from
several sources will allow your group to make informed decisions.

An attorney might be of help, but much of this can be accomplished
without forking over fees needlessly. Waivers are helpful mostly in
making folks believe they shouldn't pursue frivolous legal action, not
for their
actual legal weight or value. Good operational practices obviate the
majority of needs for legal defense.



Best wishes,

Cindy B
Region 12 SSA Director



On Dec 13, 9:27 am, "bds" > wrote:
> I belong to a glider club that is looking at the possibility of offering
> rides to help us to defray our operating costs and keep our club healthy
> financially. In order to evaluate the feasibility of this I am looking
> into
> the regulations that would apply to such an operation, as well as the
> insurance impact.
>
> Our present understanding is that both the tow plane and the glider would
> need to have 100-hr inspections and that the pilots of the tow plane and
> the
> glider would need to have a commercial rating as well as a second class
> medical for the towplane pilot.
>
> However, we are uncertain as to some of the other regulations such as
> compliance with drug testing and the requirement for an LOA for this type
> of
> operation, since it appears that there may be some exceptions when it
> comes
> to gliders.
>
> Can someone with experience in this area help to shed some light on these
> aspects as well as anything else that we should be aware of?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bruce

[Frank Whiteley]

Your chapter is a 501c(7), which establishes a gross receipts
limitation of 15% of that amount which may be derived from the public
use of your facilities. For 2008, your IRS Form 990 shows gross
receipts of $162K. This is an anomaly, as 2006 was $98K and 2007 was
$106K. So a more representative year would be closer to $100K. Thus
you'd have a $15,000 limitation. At $100/ride, your chapter would be
capped at 150 rides. Just simple math, but your stated purpose was
raising revenue. This total would need to be reduced by the amount of
gross receipts from other public sources, like perhaps the tie-downs
and tenting fees if not derived from members.

In one case, an SSA chapter in your tax category was audited by the
IRS. One of the questions specifically asked was whether they were
giving rides to the public. In this case, the answer was no. The
interest was because there was a commercial operation on the same
airport providing glider ride services and a non-profit cannot compete
unfairly with a commercial entity. Whether this exclusion extends to
an airport 5, 10, or 20 miles distant is not clear. If someone knows
of such an exclusion or challenge, I'd like to hear about it. It does
not extend to training within the membership.

Some of the other comments have some validity, but are a result of
chapters operating in a manner inconsistent with their insurance or
status. That is, they are performing more like a commercial operator
than a chapter in the opinion of the underwriter, therefore they may
be be eligible for the chapter discount. One method of correcting
this and for limiting your exposure has been recently posted to the
SSA web site.
http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6789819598&show=blog&id=2027

Frank Whiteley
SSA Clubs & Chapters Committee
970-330-2050

[Frank Whiteley]

On Dec 14, 9:08*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> Your chapter is a 501c(7), which establishes a gross receipts
> limitation of 15% of that amount which may be derived from the public
> use of your facilities. *For 2008, your IRS Form 990 shows gross
> receipts of $162K. *This is an anomaly, as 2006 was $98K and 2007 was
> $106K. *So a more representative year would be closer to $100K. *Thus
> you'd have a $15,000 limitation. *At $100/ride, your chapter would be
> capped at 150 rides. *Just simple math, but your stated purpose was
> raising revenue. *This total would need to be reduced by the amount of
> gross receipts from other public sources, like perhaps the tie-downs
> and tenting fees if not derived from members.
>
> In one case, an SSA chapter in your tax category was audited by the
> IRS. *One of the questions specifically asked was whether they were
> giving rides to the public. *In this case, the answer was no. *The
> interest was because there was a commercial operation on the same
> airport providing glider ride services and a non-profit cannot compete
> unfairly with a commercial entity. *Whether this exclusion extends to
> an airport 5, 10, or 20 miles distant is not clear. *If someone knows
> of such an exclusion or challenge, I'd like to hear about it. *It does
> not extend to training within the membership.
>
> Some of the other comments have some validity, but are a result of
> chapters operating in a manner inconsistent with their insurance or
> status. *That is, they are performing more like a commercial operator
> than a chapter in the opinion of the underwriter, therefore they may
> be be eligible for the chapter discount. *One method of correcting
> this and for limiting your exposure has been recently posted to the
> SSA web site.http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6789819598&show=blog&id=2027
>
> Frank Whiteley
> SSA Clubs & Chapters Committee
> 970-330-2050

That should say "not be eligible for the chapter discount".

Frank