Youth in soaring, and anything

[raulb]

I have just seen an unscientific poll on a guitar forum that I found
fascinating, and not because of what it means for playing guitars. In
this poll, almost 41% of those responding were between the ages of 50
and 59. The next largest group, 40-49, is at only 18%.

Like most, if not all of us here, I am a glider pilot. For years
people within the sport (myself included) have been moaning about the
lack of young people coming into soaring. It seems that soaring is
becoming a sport for gray beards.

Yet soaring is not alone because all aviation is seeing the same kind
of shrinking numbers.

Now admittedly, aviation is not a poor man's activity but something
else is at work and I do not know what it is.

It seems that every sailplane, and even, power plane modeler I see is
middle aged. Very few kids.

I also am a motorcyclist and I have seen reports that it too is
becoming (if not has become) an activity for middle-aged people with
few younger people coming up behind.

Name an activity, and the numbers are the same except one.

The numbers reverse if we talk about computer-based activities.
Although some of the early geeks are soon becoming middle aged, they
seem to be a minority.

What accounts for this dichotomy? I can understand how, as you age,
that computer activities may become less engrossing. But I do not
understand why younger people are abandoning these other activities.
We may stand to lose some of the traditional activities if the trend
continues.

Does anyone have an answer? I don't.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 17, 3:29*am, raulb > wrote:
> I have just seen an unscientific poll on a guitar forum that I found
> fascinating, and not because of what it means for playing guitars. *In
> this poll, almost 41% of those responding were between the ages of 50
> and 59. *The next largest group, 40-49, is at only 18%.
>
> Like most, if not all of us here, I am a glider pilot. *For years
> people within the sport (myself included) have been moaning about the
> lack of young people coming into soaring. *It seems that soaring is
> becoming a sport for gray beards.
>
> Yet soaring is not alone because all aviation is seeing the same kind
> of shrinking numbers.
>
> Now admittedly, aviation is not a poor man's activity but something
> else is at work and I do not know what it is.
>
> It seems that every sailplane, and even, power plane modeler I see is
> middle aged. *Very few kids.
>
> I also am a motorcyclist and I have seen reports that it too is
> becoming (if not has become) an activity for middle-aged people with
> few younger people coming up behind.
>
> Name an activity, and the numbers are the same except one.
>
> The numbers reverse if we talk about computer-based activities.
> Although some of the early geeks are soon becoming middle aged, they
> seem to be a minority.
>
> What accounts for this dichotomy? *I can understand how, as you age,
> that computer activities may become less engrossing. *But I do not
> understand why younger people are abandoning these other activities.
> We may stand to lose some of the traditional activities if the trend
> continues.
>
> Does anyone have an answer? *I don't.

One explanation seems to be ready easy access to highly entertaining
toys at low prices. The obvious lure of instant gratification. The
good news is that not all stay satisfied wityh shallow entertainment.
I have seen, in our club, a number of young people, who get hooked on
flying the simulator, and then want to do the real thing.One of my
current students, who is "old' at 16, thinks a fun afternoon is flying
a 747 from San Farancisco to Chicago or someplace on the sim- go
figure.
Our club has 29 junior members(some more active than others) out of a
total of just under 100.
One thing I am very sure of is that it is important for a young person
coming into the sport to not feel like he or she is the only kid. We
pair the new kids up right away with one of the others so they feel
quickly like they fit in.
As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
FWIW
UH

[[email protected][_2_]]

From what I've seen youth programs seem to be doing OK, it's the 25-35
year olds that are scarce. Getting them is a tough one, anyone know
if the soaring kids return after 35?

[Tom Gardner]

On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
> As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> FWIW
> UH

There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
ensnared slightly earlier: someone
- with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
- who would like to extend the time that their offspring
wants to do something with their father

Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > FWIW
> > UH
>
> There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> * * wants to do something with their father
>
> Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!

My $.02
We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. I think initial
exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. The very young
people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
relatives who also pay for their flying. By age 18, they're usually
pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
(sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
involved in soaring. In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

[Tom Gardner]

On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > FWIW
> > > UH
>
> > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> My $.02
> We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.

Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
18-40 hole.
Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
launches
are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
hours
work to earn.

I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
gender,
family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
more significant.

[bildan]

On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > > FWIW
> > > > UH
>
> > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> > My $.02
> > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> > relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> > involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>
> Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
> 18-40 hole.
> Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
> launches
> are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
> hours
> work to earn.
>
> I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
> gender,
> family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
> more significant.

There's nothing in the above posts that I would disagree with.

However, I would add that the 18-25 group are starting families and
careers. Unlike the job scene when I was in that age group, today's
employers tend to expect 60+ hours a week (Even though they only pay
for 40.) The term "wage slave" rings true.

Today, entry level jobs pay so little that many employees have second
jobs to make ends meet and repay their staggering college tuition debt
- sometimes as much as $250,000. I get the feeling few young people
have much in the way of "free time" or disposable income.

40 years ago only top level managers were "exempt" and even relatively
senior employees got overtime pay. That meant almost everyone got
every weekend off. Few had tuition debt to repay.

The observation that the groups who still have some "free time" and
disposable income are those with few ordinary obligations also rings
true. Fortunately, there are enough of them to meet our growth
goals. We just have to find them and let them know about our sport.
I think it's likely that "cherry picking" other groups that attract
this unencumbered demographic is the way to go.

Bill D

[tstock]

Well, the 18-25 crowd is busy with school.... and school is expensive
and time consuming. After that, they are working, trying to get
"grounded" as an adult, buy a home, get married, this sort of thing.
Then perhaps kids... and only when the child is old enough to not need
constant attention, and they have financially recovered from all of
the diapers, pre-school and daycare fees, etc, is there time for
something other than parenting... thus the 35 crowd.

This is where I sit, I wasn't able to start flying until recently, at
37, despite having an interest in flying since age 16.

Incidentally, I didn't start sailing until about the same time,
despite an interest in that also.

-tom

[bildan]

On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > > FWIW
> > > > UH
>
> > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> > My $.02
> > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> > relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> > involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>
> Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
> 18-40 hole.
> Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
> launches
> are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
> hours
> work to earn.
>
> I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
> gender,
> family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
> more significant.

I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
particularly hard time in this economy. Soaring tends to do well in
countries with a thriving middle class. The wealthy want jets, not
gliders. If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
Gulfstream. Lower classes just want affordable health care.

In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. The
story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
to a foreclosure. Some of these young adults really want to fly but
you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
afford it.

I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
afford.

[Brad[_2_]]

On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > > > FWIW
> > > > > UH
>
> > > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > > > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > > > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > > > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > > > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> > > My $.02
> > > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> > > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> > > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> > > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> > > relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> > > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> > > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> > > involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> > > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>
> > Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
> > 18-40 hole.
> > Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
> > launches
> > are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
> > hours
> > work to earn.
>
> > I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
> > gender,
> > family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
> > more significant.
>
> I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
> financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
> particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
> countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
> gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
> Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.
>
> In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
> with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
> story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
> had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
> to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
> you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
> afford it.
>
> I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
> glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
> afford.

look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
those toys up for sale now?

Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.

In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.

Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.

Brad

[jb92563]

My own gliding interest started at age 9 when my father sent me up on
a demo ride in a 2-33.

Dad passed along his interest in aviation to me by doing stuff with
me. Building flying models etc and visiting glider ports and getting
a ride now and then.

Took up RC model activity from age 9-35.

In the process of being a middle class earner it took until age 35
that I could finally realize my dream of personal aviation and get a
glider rating.

It was a combination of time, money and guilt of spending money on
something just for me, not the family.

I also lived in Canada at the time where nearly ALL glider clubs are
non-profit (relatively cheap)

Now I live in the US where a large portion of the gliding resources
are commercial and costly.
Our local club charges almost as much for a tow as the local
commercial operations.

So I am now in my late 40's I am exploring motorgliders and own a
couple, now that the fruits of my labors are finally cashing in and I
have no familly to support.

The cost for young people in our club is prohibitive at $63 a tow for
at most an 75min flight, due to the time blocks for club gliders, plus
a monthly memebership of $25-$50.

Even at these rates the club barely survives so its not due to
profiteering....its just an expensive hobby that your familly can only
watch from the ground.

I think its just the economics that only the middle aged folks and
older can support such an expensive sport.

Right now times are tough, so all expensive sports and hobbies are at
risk of downsizing.

The new generations are not being introduced to affluent lifesyles of
the Baby Boomers anymore, its a tighter economy and hobbies are taking
a big hit.

Its a question of survival, not prosperity these days, with dreams
being tucked away for another decade while this particular uncertainty
of the future slowly resolves itself.


Ray

[[email protected]]

On Dec 17, 3:23*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > > > > FWIW
> > > > > > UH
>
> > > > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > > > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > > > > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > > > > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > > > > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > > > > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > > > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> > > > My $.02
> > > > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> > > > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> > > > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> > > > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> > > > relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> > > > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> > > > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> > > > involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> > > > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>
> > > Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
> > > 18-40 hole.
> > > Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
> > > launches
> > > are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
> > > hours
> > > work to earn.
>
> > > I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
> > > gender,
> > > family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
> > > more significant.
>
> > I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
> > financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
> > particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
> > countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
> > gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
> > Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.
>
> > In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
> > with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
> > story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
> > had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
> > to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
> > you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
> > afford it.
>
> > I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
> > glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
> > afford.
>
> look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
> a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
> sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
> those toys up for sale now?
>
> Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
> isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.
>
> In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
> interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
> what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
> world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
> rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
> one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
> who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
> front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
> ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
> of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
> great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
> that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.
>
> Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
> the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.
>
> Brad- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
long ago.
Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
rides still go on.
Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
sometime.
If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
be enough to scare a lot of them off.
And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
UH

[Ryan Spicer]

The plural of anecdote is not "data," nor is it "trend," but here's my
story: I earned my private glider ticket at age 24, in 2008. I'd
wanted to start since I was in my early teens -- my father flew SEL
back in the 70s and I grew up around airports, airplanes, and pilots.
The first time I had the money to pursue training, though, was 2008.
I joined the nearest soaring club shortly after earning my ticket, and
they do a lot to make flying fun and affordable, but pressure from
school/work (I'm a doctoral student working in a research lab) means I
can't fly nearly as much as I'd like.

I imagine that other folks who weren't raised around flying would be
even harder to get interested/keep interested in the face of the other
commitments. I -want- to do this, and I have trouble making time for
it, and affording it. It would be a tough sell to someone in my age
group if he/she didn't already love aviation, I think.

Ryan

On Dec 17, 2:03*pm, wrote:
> On Dec 17, 3:23*pm, Brad > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > > > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > > > > > FWIW
> > > > > > > UH
>
> > > > > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > > > > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > > > > > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > > > > > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > > > > > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > > > > > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > > > > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> > > > > My $.02
> > > > > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> > > > > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> > > > > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> > > > > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> > > > > relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> > > > > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> > > > > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> > > > > involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> > > > > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>
> > > > Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
> > > > 18-40 hole.
> > > > Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
> > > > launches
> > > > are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
> > > > hours
> > > > work to earn.
>
> > > > I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
> > > > gender,
> > > > family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
> > > > more significant.
>
> > > I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
> > > financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
> > > particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
> > > countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
> > > gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
> > > Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.
>
> > > In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
> > > with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
> > > story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
> > > had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
> > > to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
> > > you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
> > > afford it.
>
> > > I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
> > > glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
> > > afford.
>
> > look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
> > a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
> > sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
> > those toys up for sale now?
>
> > Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
> > isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.
>
> > In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
> > interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
> > what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
> > world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
> > rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
> > one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
> > who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
> > front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
> > ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
> > of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
> > great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
> > that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.
>
> > Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
> > the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.
>
> > Brad- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
> our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
> BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
> goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
> hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
> Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
> a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
> were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
> long ago.
> Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
> Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
> rides still go on.
> Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
> sometime.
> If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
> on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
> be enough to scare a lot of them off.
> And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
> UH

[GM]

On Dec 17, 5:08*pm, Ryan Spicer > wrote:
> The plural of anecdote is not "data," nor is it "trend," but here's my
> story: I earned my private glider ticket at age 24, in 2008. I'd
> wanted to start since I was in my early teens -- my father flew SEL
> back in the 70s and I grew up around airports, airplanes, and pilots.
> The first time I had the money to pursue training, though, was 2008.
> I joined the nearest soaring club shortly after earning my ticket, and
> they do a lot to make flying fun and affordable, but pressure from
> school/work (I'm a doctoral student working in a research lab) means I
> can't fly nearly as much as I'd like.
>
> I imagine that other folks who weren't raised around flying would be
> even harder to get interested/keep interested in the face of the other
> commitments. I -want- to do this, and I have trouble making time for
> it, and affording it. It would be a tough sell to someone in my age
> group if he/she didn't already love aviation, I think.
>
> Ryan
>
> On Dec 17, 2:03*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 17, 3:23*pm, Brad > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > > > > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > > > > > > FWIW
> > > > > > > > UH
>
> > > > > > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > > > > > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > > > > > > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > > > > > > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > > > > > > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > > > > > > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > > > > > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> > > > > > My $.02
> > > > > > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> > > > > > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> > > > > > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> > > > > > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> > > > > > relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> > > > > > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> > > > > > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> > > > > > involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> > > > > > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>
> > > > > Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
> > > > > 18-40 hole.
> > > > > Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
> > > > > launches
> > > > > are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
> > > > > hours
> > > > > work to earn.
>
> > > > > I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
> > > > > gender,
> > > > > family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
> > > > > more significant.
>
> > > > I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
> > > > financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
> > > > particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
> > > > countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
> > > > gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
> > > > Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.
>
> > > > In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
> > > > with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
> > > > story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
> > > > had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
> > > > to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
> > > > you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
> > > > afford it.
>
> > > > I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
> > > > glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
> > > > afford.
>
> > > look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
> > > a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
> > > sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
> > > those toys up for sale now?
>
> > > Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
> > > isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.
>
> > > In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
> > > interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
> > > what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
> > > world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
> > > rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
> > > one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
> > > who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
> > > front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
> > > ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
> > > of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
> > > great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
> > > that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.
>
> > > Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
> > > the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.
>
> > > Brad- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
> > our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
> > BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
> > goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
> > hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
> > Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
> > a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
> > were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
> > long ago.
> > Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
> > Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
> > rides still go on.
> > Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
> > sometime.
> > If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
> > on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
> > be enough to scare a lot of them off.
> > And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
> > UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So we seem to agree that at least for the US, the biggest road-block
for attracting and retaining young people is cost. This begs the
question: what are the costs? If I read of aero-tow fees of $63, I am
not surprised at all that young folks - even those with a steady job -
are turned off. Therefore, we must find ways of lowering the cost per
flight - at least for the initial part of the training. Any ideas?
Ever heard of a thing called 'Winch' - a machine that reliably
delivers a two-seat trainer to better than pattern altitude for a
fraction of the operating cost of a tow plane? Ever wondered how it is
possible for European clubs to train their students for far less than
over here (US)? (Please, don't give that crap about the government
paying for their planes, etc.!)
There are some really encouraging developments ongoing in the US to
make winches more affordable for clubs. Besides lowering the costs per
flight, a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
younger crowd craves. I realize that not everybody will push his water-
laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
thermal for a local flight. This is the segment not served by the club
that charges $50+ per launch but is worth retaining!
I see the winch as an integral part of the solution.
My 2 cents worth ....
Uli Neumann

[Greg Arnold]

GM wrote:
>
> So we seem to agree that at least for the US, the biggest road-block
> for attracting and retaining young people is cost.


I think the biggest road block is time. If you are working 40 to 50
hours per week with a family, you don't have much time for any hobby or
sport. Those who can afford gliding probably work even more.

We need to recruit middle-aged types whose kids have left home.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Dec 18, 10:50*pm, GM > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 5:08*pm, Ryan Spicer > wrote:
>
>
>
> > The plural of anecdote is not "data," nor is it "trend," but here's my
> > story: I earned my private glider ticket at age 24, in 2008. I'd
> > wanted to start since I was in my early teens -- my father flew SEL
> > back in the 70s and I grew up around airports, airplanes, and pilots.
> > The first time I had the money to pursue training, though, was 2008.
> > I joined the nearest soaring club shortly after earning my ticket, and
> > they do a lot to make flying fun and affordable, but pressure from
> > school/work (I'm a doctoral student working in a research lab) means I
> > can't fly nearly as much as I'd like.
>
> > I imagine that other folks who weren't raised around flying would be
> > even harder to get interested/keep interested in the face of the other
> > commitments. I -want- to do this, and I have trouble making time for
> > it, and affording it. It would be a tough sell to someone in my age
> > group if he/she didn't already love aviation, I think.
>
> > Ryan
>
> > On Dec 17, 2:03*pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 17, 3:23*pm, Brad > wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > > > > > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > > > > > > > FWIW
> > > > > > > > > UH
>
> > > > > > > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > > > > > > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > > > > > > > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > > > > > > > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > > > > > > > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > > > > > > > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > > > > > > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> > > > > > > My $.02
> > > > > > > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> > > > > > > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> > > > > > > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> > > > > > > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> > > > > > > relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> > > > > > > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> > > > > > > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> > > > > > > involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> > > > > > > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>
> > > > > > Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
> > > > > > 18-40 hole.
> > > > > > Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
> > > > > > launches
> > > > > > are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
> > > > > > hours
> > > > > > work to earn.
>
> > > > > > I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
> > > > > > gender,
> > > > > > family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
> > > > > > more significant.
>
> > > > > I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
> > > > > financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
> > > > > particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
> > > > > countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
> > > > > gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
> > > > > Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.
>
> > > > > In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
> > > > > with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
> > > > > story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
> > > > > had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
> > > > > to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
> > > > > you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
> > > > > afford it.
>
> > > > > I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
> > > > > glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
> > > > > afford.
>
> > > > look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
> > > > a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
> > > > sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
> > > > those toys up for sale now?
>
> > > > Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
> > > > isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.
>
> > > > In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
> > > > interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
> > > > what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
> > > > world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
> > > > rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
> > > > one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
> > > > who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
> > > > front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
> > > > ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
> > > > of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
> > > > great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
> > > > that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.
>
> > > > Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
> > > > the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.
>
> > > > Brad- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
> > > our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
> > > BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
> > > goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
> > > hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
> > > Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
> > > a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
> > > were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
> > > long ago.
> > > Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
> > > Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
> > > rides still go on.
> > > Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
> > > sometime.
> > > If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
> > > on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
> > > be enough to scare a lot of them off.
> > > And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
> > > UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So we seem to agree that at least for the US, the biggest road-block
> for attracting and retaining young people is cost. This begs the
> question: what are the costs? If I read of aero-tow fees of $63, I am
> not surprised at all that young folks - even those with a steady job -
> are turned off. Therefore, we must find ways of lowering the cost per
> flight - at least for the initial part of the training. Any ideas?
> Ever heard of a thing called 'Winch' - a machine that reliably
> delivers a two-seat trainer to better than pattern altitude for a
> fraction of the operating cost of a tow plane? Ever wondered how it is
> possible for European clubs to train their students for far less than
> over here (US)? (Please, don't give that crap about the government
> paying for their planes, etc.!)
> There are some really encouraging developments ongoing in the US to
> make winches more affordable for clubs. Besides lowering the costs per
> flight, a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> younger crowd craves. I realize that not everybody will push his water-
> laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
> pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
> thermal for a local flight. This is the segment not served by the club
> that charges $50+ per launch but is worth retaining!
> I see the winch as an integral part of the solution.
> My 2 cents worth ....
> Uli Neumann

I agree with Uli. We've launched CAP cadets and Boy Scouts with a
winch and they all like it, a lot. Engaging youth is not as large a
problem as engaging their parents. The daughter of a club member was
in high school Jr ROTC and suggested their squadron take glider
flights. The school board nixed that one as too dangerous. Tucson
Soaring Club at one time had a high school flight training scholarship
program that was wildly successful (though somewhat difficult). It
grew the club from 90-130 members in a short span, but also took the
program coordinator out of soaring (or at least his wife did) and that
ended the program. Somehow you need to make soaring seem as appealing
as varsity sports.

At the ab-initio level, some may take advantage of the SSA Cadet Youth
Scholarships. This can be very productive, especially if used with
the SSA/Chapter Introductory Membership concept.
http://www.ssa.org/myhome.asp?mbr=6789819598&show=blog&id=2027
Oops, only one applicant in 2009.

Those young pilots that work the line, wash gliders, mow grass, and go
on retrieves can get a boost from the Bultman Youth Flight Scholarship
Oops, only one applicant in 2009.

There are some other significant awards looking for applicants also.
Gee, maybe money may not be the big issue.

More successful than all of these types of awards are vibrant youth
programs. I'm told Texas Soaring Association has had two 17yo tow
pilots flying Pawnees in the past four years. You don't find those,
you grow them. From the 2006 SSA convention.
http://www.soaringchapters.org/conventions/2006/tsa_youth.wmv (41m27s,
WMF format, 2nd generation)

Harris Hill Soaring Corporation and Valley Soaring Club both claim
active youth programs.
From the 2003 Northeast Regional Club Seminar (30m37s, WMF format, 3rd
generation)
http://www.soaringchapters.org/seminars/r2_2003/region2_youth.wmv

If you're seeking advice on how to attract and involve youth, you
might ask the following chapters, listed with their SSA Youth Member
count
Caesar Creek Soaring Club 31
Central Indiana Soaring Society 10
Greater Houston Soaring Association 18
Harris Hill Soaring Corporation 29
Mid-Atlantic Soaring Association 34
Sandhill Soaring Club 10
Sky Soaring, Inc 18
Texas Soaring Assn 16
Valley Soaring Club 26

Many have 1-9 youth.

However, 53 of 134 chapters have 0 youth members.

Regards,

Frank Whiteley

[Morgans[_2_]]

Frank, (and others) be kind and trim previous posts, please.

[[email protected]]

On Dec 19, 12:50*am, GM > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 5:08*pm, Ryan Spicer > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The plural of anecdote is not "data," nor is it "trend," but here's my
> > story: I earned my private glider ticket at age 24, in 2008. I'd
> > wanted to start since I was in my early teens -- my father flew SEL
> > back in the 70s and I grew up around airports, airplanes, and pilots.
> > The first time I had the money to pursue training, though, was 2008.
> > I joined the nearest soaring club shortly after earning my ticket, and
> > they do a lot to make flying fun and affordable, but pressure from
> > school/work (I'm a doctoral student working in a research lab) means I
> > can't fly nearly as much as I'd like.
>
> > I imagine that other folks who weren't raised around flying would be
> > even harder to get interested/keep interested in the face of the other
> > commitments. I -want- to do this, and I have trouble making time for
> > it, and affording it. It would be a tough sell to someone in my age
> > group if he/she didn't already love aviation, I think.
>
> > Ryan
>
> > On Dec 17, 2:03*pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 17, 3:23*pm, Brad > wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 17, 11:57*am, bildan > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Dec 17, 9:44*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Dec 17, 4:08*pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Dec 17, 7:22*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2:20*pm, wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person who now has
> > > > > > > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
> > > > > > > > > FWIW
> > > > > > > > > UH
>
> > > > > > > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might therefore be
> > > > > > > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
> > > > > > > > * - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and becoming
> > > > > > > > * * interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
> > > > > > > > * - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
> > > > > > > > * * wants to do something with their father
>
> > > > > > > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>
> > > > > > > My $.02
> > > > > > > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age bracket,
> > > > > > > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. *I think initial
> > > > > > > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. *The very young
> > > > > > > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents or
> > > > > > > relatives who also pay for their flying. *By age 18, they're usually
> > > > > > > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until later
> > > > > > > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and stay
> > > > > > > involved in soaring. *In my case, I always wanted to fly. I just
> > > > > > > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>
> > > > > > Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for the
> > > > > > 18-40 hole.
> > > > > > Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and winch
> > > > > > launches
> > > > > > are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about 3
> > > > > > hours
> > > > > > work to earn.
>
> > > > > > I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the other
> > > > > > gender,
> > > > > > family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests are
> > > > > > more significant.
>
> > > > > I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
> > > > > financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
> > > > > particularly hard time in this economy. *Soaring tends to do well in
> > > > > countries with a thriving middle class. *The wealthy want jets, not
> > > > > gliders. *If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
> > > > > Gulfstream. *Lower classes just want affordable health care.
>
> > > > > In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children living
> > > > > with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children. *The
> > > > > story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
> > > > > had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their house
> > > > > to a foreclosure. *Some of these young adults really want to fly but
> > > > > you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able to
> > > > > afford it.
>
> > > > > I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
> > > > > glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
> > > > > afford.
>
> > > > look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is that
> > > > a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
> > > > sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
> > > > those toys up for sale now?
>
> > > > Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
> > > > isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.
>
> > > > In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
> > > > interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and enjoy
> > > > what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
> > > > world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
> > > > rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
> > > > one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
> > > > who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to the
> > > > front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
> > > > ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
> > > > of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
> > > > great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
> > > > that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.
>
> > > > Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good and
> > > > the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.
>
> > > > Brad- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
> > > our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
> > > BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
> > > goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
> > > hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
> > > Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
> > > a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
> > > were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
> > > long ago.
> > > Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
> > > Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
> > > rides still go on.
> > > Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
> > > sometime.
> > > If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
> > > on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
> > > be enough to scare a lot of them off.
> > > And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
> > > UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So we seem to agree that at least for the US, the biggest road-block
> for attracting and retaining young people is cost. This begs the
> question: what are the costs? If I read of aero-tow fees of $63, I am
> not surprised at all that young folks - even those with a steady job -
> are turned off. Therefore, we must find ways of lowering the cost per
> flight - at least for the initial part of the training. Any ideas?
> Ever heard of a thing called 'Winch' - a machine that reliably
> delivers a two-seat trainer to better than pattern altitude for a
> fraction of the operating cost of a tow plane? Ever wondered how it is
> possible for European clubs to train their students for far less than
> over here (US)? (Please, don't give that crap about the government
> paying for their planes, etc.!)
> There are some really encouraging developments ongoing in the US to
> make winches more affordable for clubs. Besides lowering the costs per
> flight, a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> younger crowd craves. I realize that not everybody will push his water-
> laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
> pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
> thermal for a local flight. This is the segment not served by the club
> that charges $50+ per launch but is worth retaining!
> I see the winch as an integral part of the solution.
> My 2 cents worth ....
> Uli Neumann- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Our kids pay $15 to 2000 ft and the 1-26 is free. Their other flying,
such as training, is about 1/2 of regular member. essentially they pay
variable costs for their flying and the regular membership, plus some
income from introductory flights, covers absorption of fixed costs.
Alas, our airport is not suitable for winching.
UH

[Tom Gardner]

On Dec 19, 5:50*am, GM > wrote:
> a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> younger crowd craves.

Definitely.

My daughter's first flight was an aerotow in a DG500. Her reaction:
"it was OK".
Her second flight (same day, different club!) was a winch launch in a
K13.
Her reaction: "Can I do it again?". She was hooked, and remains so.

[[email protected][_2_]]

Money is the easy complaint. I'd guess time is the real answer,
followed by spousal permission. And we have become a risk averse
planet, current culture punishes non-risk averse individuals.

[GM]

>
> Our kids pay $15 to 2000 ft and the 1-26 is free. Their other flying,
> such as training, is about 1/2 of regular member. essentially they pay
> variable costs for their flying and the regular membership, plus some
> income from introductory flights, covers absorption of fixed costs.
> Alas, our airport is not suitable for winching.
> UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hank,
your club is a shining example for supporting youth in soaring. Caesar
Creek is another one. Neither one is winching for various reasons -
and yes, Harris Hill is a bit short for that. The one thing both clubs
have in common is their size and members dedicated to taking on the
job of training. Hats off to both clubs!
Uli

[Tony V]

GM wrote:
> .....Ever wondered how it is
> possible for European clubs to train their students for far less than
> over here (US)? (Please, don't give that crap about the government
> paying for their planes, etc.!)


It's not *all* crap. Late one year, some Canadians showed up and bought
an L23 that was on lease back to a small outfit that I flew commercial
rides for. You see, they had to spend CDN$50,000 before the end of the year.


> There are some really encouraging developments ongoing in the US to
> make winches more affordable for clubs. Besides lowering the costs per
> flight, a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> younger crowd craves.


Thanks largely to member Ken Flaton, the Greater Boston Soaring Club is
working on that
http://picasaweb.google.com/verhulst.tonyorsusan/WinchDay091010#.

Tony V.

[bildan]

On Dec 19, 7:47*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Dec 19, 5:50*am, GM > wrote:
>
> > a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> > younger crowd craves.
>
> Definitely.
>
> My daughter's first flight was an aerotow in a DG500. Her reaction:
> "it was OK".
> Her second flight (same day, different club!) was a winch launch in a
> K13.
> Her reaction: "Can I do it again?". She was hooked, and remains so.

Precisely my observation - kids LOVE winch launch. With good
equipment and sharp instructor staff, it's a fun, economical and
effective way to attract the younger crowd.

Bill D

[Frank Whiteley]

On Dec 19, 7:51*am, " >
wrote:
> Money is the easy complaint. *I'd guess time is the real answer,
> followed by spousal permission. *And we have become a risk averse
> planet, current culture punishes non-risk averse individuals.

Especially with many 'leaders' trying to scare the crap out of
everyone. Those are our 'profits of doom'.

In the '60's the question was 'are you experienced?' Now, it seems to
be 'are you dangerous?'. Funny how obtuse PC has become.

[Dave White]

I'm the youth program coordinator at Texas Soaring Association, and I
can tell you that one of my ongoing concerns is precisely what is
addressed in the beginning of this thread. Our program gives youth
program members credit for $10 per hour worked on club tasks. It's a
great deal, but when the young person finishes their private license,
they are done in the youth program. They then have the option to
convert to full membership for half the normal initiation fee. This
is a huge concession on the part of the club, but it still leaves us
saying goodbye to some fine young people who would be great for the
future of the sport. I'm trying to find a way to bring some of these
kids back into the program as mentors/supervisors/role models and
continue their membership in the youth program. But even that doesn't
resolve the long term issue that pops up in their 20s--career, school,
family vs. soaring.

BTW, in my time with the club, I only recall one teenage towpilot, and
he's not with the club any more. Gone off to school, I believe.

On Dec 19, 9:31*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Dec 19, 7:51*am, " >
> wrote:
>
> > Money is the easy complaint. *I'd guess time is the real answer,
> > followed by spousal permission. *And we have become a risk averse
> > planet, current culture punishes non-risk averse individuals.
>
> Especially with many 'leaders' trying to scare the crap out of
> everyone. *Those are our 'profits of doom'.
>
> In the '60's the question was 'are you experienced?' *Now, it seems to
> be 'are you dangerous?'. *Funny how obtuse PC has become.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Dec 19, 5:30*am, "Morgans" > wrote:
> Frank, (and others) be kind and trim previous posts, please.

Yeah, I noticed that the quoted text (Google) was large after I posted.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Dec 19, 7:47*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
> On Dec 19, 5:50*am, GM > wrote:
>
> > a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> > younger crowd craves.
>
> Definitely.
>
> My daughter's first flight was an aerotow in a DG500. Her reaction:
> "it was OK".
> Her second flight (same day, different club!) was a winch launch in a
> K13.
> Her reaction: "Can I do it again?". She was hooked, and remains so.

Don would like you all to visit Florida this winter;^)
http://www.crosscountrysoaring.com/florida.html

[Tom Gardner]

On Dec 19, 3:29*pm, bildan > wrote:
> On Dec 19, 7:47*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19, 5:50*am, GM > wrote:
>
> > > a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> > > younger crowd craves.
>
> > Definitely.
>
> > My daughter's first flight was an aerotow in a DG500. Her reaction:
> > "it was OK".
> > Her second flight (same day, different club!) was a winch launch in a
> > K13.
> > Her reaction: "Can I do it again?". She was hooked, and remains so.
>
> Precisely my observation - kids LOVE winch launch. *With good
> equipment and sharp instructor staff, it's a fun, economical and
> effective way to attract the younger crowd.

Adults enjoy it too :) Gets me away from that nasty hard stuff asap :)

Your point about "good equipment" and "sharp instructor staff"
shouldn't be overlooked. The BGA has recently been particularly
active in promoting winch launch safety; see
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/safewinchlaunching.htm
for leaflets, a quiz, and for video simulations

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 21:50:28 -0800, GM wrote:

> I realize that not everybody will push his water-
> laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
> pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
> thermal for a local flight.
>
You may be surprised. In my UK club a number of our better pilots
routinely start an XC task off a winch launch.

I'm not one of the pundits, but I prefer to start an XC from a winch
launch on the grounds that if I can get away fairly easily off the winch
then its quite likely that I can do it again if/when I get low when out
on task.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Tom Gardner]

On Dec 19, 3:55*pm, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Dec 19, 7:47*am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>
> > On Dec 19, 5:50*am, GM > wrote:
>
> > > a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> > > younger crowd craves.
>
> > Definitely.
>
> > My daughter's first flight was an aerotow in a DG500. Her reaction:
> > "it was OK".
> > Her second flight (same day, different club!) was a winch launch in a
> > K13.
> > Her reaction: "Can I do it again?". She was hooked, and remains so.
>
> Don would like you all to visit Florida this winter;^)http://www.crosscountrysoaring.com/florida.html

Tempting: it feels cold on our runway at the moment. But our
runway is just as long (club lore has it that a B52 lined up
to land on it), and it is too much hassle to get special
passports to meet the TSA regs :)

[Tom Gardner]

On Dec 19, 5:50*am, GM > wrote:
> I realize that not everybody will push his water-
> laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
> pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
> thermal for a local flight.

At my club we do both winch launches and aerotows.

Winch launches predominate, with aerotows being
largely "relegated" to (a minority of) trial flights, and
during competitions when we need to get 50 gliders
up within an hour.

The number of "relights" we need is surprisingly small.
By and large, if you are going to be able to soar at all,
then you can do it from a winch launch.

[Frank Whiteley]

> > There are some really encouraging developments ongoing in the US to
> > make winches more affordable for clubs. Besides lowering the costs per
> > flight, a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> > younger crowd craves. I realize that not everybody will push his water-
> > laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
> > pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
> > thermal for a local flight. This is the segment not served by the club
> > that charges $50+ per launch but is worth retaining!
> > I see the winch as an integral part of the solution.
> > My 2 cents worth ....
> > Uli Neumann- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Our kids pay $15 to 2000 ft and the 1-26 is free. Their other flying,
> such as training, is about 1/2 of regular member. essentially they pay
> variable costs for their flying and the regular membership, plus some
> income from introductory flights, covers absorption of fixed costs.
> Alas, our airport is not suitable for winching.
> UH
>
That's a very reasonable rate. Different clubs use different
strategies. One large chapter waives the $10 hookup charge for
members of active teams, reducing the cost for their active, assigned
participation. It also obviates the need for herding cats by trying
to have all members working the essential tasks.

Among SSA chapters, about 18-19 have the charitable 501c(3) tax
determination. That creates many opportunities. Those chapters exist
for the public benefit. Recent comments from one such (admittedly
large) chapter indicates that they are $60,000/year better off for
that tax status. Another forty or so chapters have a 501c(7)
determination. The remainder may or may not be state non-profits.
About six clubs may have determinations but operate as SSA business
members for no clear reason. Generally, those not for public benefit,
but are mutual benefit organizations. On the up side, I've discussed
the 501c(3) status with three groups in the past ten days, two
chapters and one group considering organizing plus several others
during the year.

That's actually the way the US may subsidize, through charitable
donations. In some of the 501c(3) chapters, joining charges and dues
may be partially or fully tax deductible. There may be provisions for
relief of real and personal property taxes, and sales taxes, or pay
reduced rates. There may be grant opportunities. It may be possible
to draw on federal and state surplus property. All of this may serve
to reduce the cost of participation or expansion. It takes time and
effort and you have to wrap your mind around the concepts and what it
means to be a charitable, non-profit organization.

Several chapters have youth/student rates that may be half the full
members rates, at least for joining fees and dues. Fewer lower the
cost of the operational charges, tows, glider fees, etc. Some have
local scholarships, based on particular performance or eligibility
standards. There are many good programs around, but we, the US
soaring community, could do better.

Frank Whiteley

[Greg Arnold]

Dave White wrote:
> I'm the youth program coordinator at Texas Soaring Association, and I
> can tell you that one of my ongoing concerns is precisely what is
> addressed in the beginning of this thread. Our program gives youth
> program members credit for $10 per hour worked on club tasks. It's a
> great deal, but when the young person finishes their private license,
> they are done in the youth program. They then have the option to
> convert to full membership for half the normal initiation fee. This
> is a huge concession on the part of the club, but it still leaves us
> saying goodbye to some fine young people who would be great for the
> future of the sport. I'm trying to find a way to bring some of these
> kids back into the program as mentors/supervisors/role models and
> continue their membership in the youth program. But even that doesn't
> resolve the long term issue that pops up in their 20s--career, school,
> family vs. soaring.


Maybe these pilots will return in 25 years after their children have
left home. That may be the best reason for trying to get youth involved
now.



>
> BTW, in my time with the club, I only recall one teenage towpilot, and
> he's not with the club any more. Gone off to school, I believe.
>
> On Dec 19, 9:31 am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
>> On Dec 19, 7:51 am, " >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Money is the easy complaint. I'd guess time is the real answer,
>>> followed by spousal permission. And we have become a risk averse
>>> planet, current culture punishes non-risk averse individuals.
>> Especially with many 'leaders' trying to scare the crap out of
>> everyone. Those are our 'profits of doom'.
>>
>> In the '60's the question was 'are you experienced?' Now, it seems to
>> be 'are you dangerous?'. Funny how obtuse PC has become.
>

[Frank Whiteley]

On Dec 19, 8:50*am, Dave White > wrote:
> I'm the youth program coordinator at Texas Soaring Association, and I
> can tell you that one of my ongoing concerns is precisely what is
> addressed in the beginning of this thread. *Our program gives youth
> program members credit for $10 per hour worked on club tasks. *It's a
> great deal, but when the young person finishes their private license,
> they are done in the youth program. *They then have the option to
> convert to full membership for half the normal initiation fee. *This
> is a huge concession on the part of the club, but it still leaves us
> saying goodbye to some fine young people who would be great for the
> future of the sport. *I'm trying to find a way to bring some of these
> kids back into the program as mentors/supervisors/role models and
> continue their membership in the youth program. *But even that doesn't
> resolve the long term issue that pops up in their 20s--career, school,
> family vs. soaring.
>
> BTW, in my time with the club, I only recall one teenage towpilot, and
> he's not with the club any more. *Gone off to school, I believe.
>
Hmmm, I was told recently there was a second teenage tow pilot.

There was also another in Illinois I believe.

In any case, they come from the 14yo solo glider driver.

Many of those who've drifted away will be back.

Frank

[Mike Schumann]

For those of you who are interested in winch launching, Don Ingraham from
Cross Country Soaring is bringing his winch to Immokalee FL (KIMM) from mid
January thru the end of February to do winch training. He's offering a
package deal: $600 gets you a winch launch endorsement, including up to 20
launches, use of his Grob, and flight instruction. Included in the package
is a free BFR.

Bring your whole family down for a week or two, and let them enjoy the
beaches in Naples or Ft. Myers while you join us in Immokalee for some
serious fun.

Mike Schumann

P.S. Aerotows will also be available thru High Soaring. The Everglades
Soaring Club also has low cost membership options for pilots who want to
join us for some winter soaring!

"GM" > wrote in message
...
> On Dec 17, 5:08 pm, Ryan Spicer > wrote:
>> The plural of anecdote is not "data," nor is it "trend," but here's my
>> story: I earned my private glider ticket at age 24, in 2008. I'd
>> wanted to start since I was in my early teens -- my father flew SEL
>> back in the 70s and I grew up around airports, airplanes, and pilots.
>> The first time I had the money to pursue training, though, was 2008.
>> I joined the nearest soaring club shortly after earning my ticket, and
>> they do a lot to make flying fun and affordable, but pressure from
>> school/work (I'm a doctoral student working in a research lab) means I
>> can't fly nearly as much as I'd like.
>>
>> I imagine that other folks who weren't raised around flying would be
>> even harder to get interested/keep interested in the face of the other
>> commitments. I -want- to do this, and I have trouble making time for
>> it, and affording it. It would be a tough sell to someone in my age
>> group if he/she didn't already love aviation, I think.
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>> On Dec 17, 2:03 pm, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 17, 3:23 pm, Brad > wrote:
>>
>> > > On Dec 17, 11:57 am, bildan > wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Dec 17, 9:44 am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > On Dec 17, 4:08 pm, Uncle Fuzzy > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > On Dec 17, 7:22 am, Tom Gardner > wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > > On Dec 17, 2:20 pm, wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > > > As you allude- the other easy catch market is the person
>> > > > > > > > who now has
>> > > > > > > > their kids launched and wants to go have some fun.
>> > > > > > > > FWIW
>> > > > > > > > UH
>>
>> > > > > > > There's a slightly younger variant of that, who might
>> > > > > > > therefore be
>> > > > > > > ensnared slightly earlier: someone
>> > > > > > > - with a teenager that is spreading their wings and
>> > > > > > > becoming
>> > > > > > > interested in "the wrong things" (e.g. shopping malls :)
>> > > > > > > - who would like to extend the time that their offspring
>> > > > > > > wants to do something with their father
>>
>> > > > > > > Worked for me and my daughter, I'm pleased to say!
>>
>> > > > > > My $.02
>> > > > > > We get a fair number of young people in the under 18 y/o age
>> > > > > > bracket,
>> > > > > > then almost none in the 18 - 25(ish) age group. I think
>> > > > > > initial
>> > > > > > exposure is a factor, but MONEY is a huge issue. The very
>> > > > > > young
>> > > > > > people are introduced to soaring (for the most part) by parents
>> > > > > > or
>> > > > > > relatives who also pay for their flying. By age 18, they're
>> > > > > > usually
>> > > > > > pretty much one their own for flying expenses. It's not until
>> > > > > > later
>> > > > > > (sometimes much later) that they can again afford to get and
>> > > > > > stay
>> > > > > > involved in soaring. In my case, I always wanted to fly. I
>> > > > > > just
>> > > > > > couldn't afford it until I was in my very late 40's.
>>
>> > > > > Personally I'm not convinced that money is the main reason for
>> > > > > the
>> > > > > 18-40 hole.
>> > > > > Over here, clubs are much not very far away (less petrol) and
>> > > > > winch
>> > > > > launches
>> > > > > are cheap - typically 3 launches or an hour in the air take about
>> > > > > 3
>> > > > > hours
>> > > > > work to earn.
>>
>> > > > > I suspect that moving away from home to work/university, the
>> > > > > other
>> > > > > gender,
>> > > > > family responsibilities, hours in the week, and other interests
>> > > > > are
>> > > > > more significant.
>>
>> > > > I would also add that "leisure time activities" tend to track the
>> > > > financial health of the middle class - one that's having a
>> > > > particularly hard time in this economy. Soaring tends to do well
>> > > > in
>> > > > countries with a thriving middle class. The wealthy want jets, not
>> > > > gliders. If they have a Citation, they lust for a 4-engine
>> > > > Gulfstream. Lower classes just want affordable health care.
>>
>> > > > In my neighborhood, numerous couples have their adult children
>> > > > living
>> > > > with them again - sometimes with their wives and young children.
>> > > > The
>> > > > story is that their offspring graduated, started a career, married,
>> > > > had children, bought a house only to be laid off and lose their
>> > > > house
>> > > > to a foreclosure. Some of these young adults really want to fly
>> > > > but
>> > > > you can see in their eyes they don't think they will ever be able
>> > > > to
>> > > > afford it.
>>
>> > > > I don't think the Internet, Facebook etc. has drained off potential
>> > > > glider pilots - it's is just the only interesting activity they can
>> > > > afford.
>>
>> > > look at all the high end glass for sale on W&W.................is
>> > > that
>> > > a barometer of the financial crisis as well? I do hope that these
>> > > sellers have new sailplanes on order, but I wonder who will be buying
>> > > those toys up for sale now?
>>
>> > > Let's hope there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and that it
>> > > isn't the head lights of a freight train boring down.
>>
>> > > In the mean time, I could care less about trying to get more people
>> > > interested in soaring, I want to protect what I already have and
>> > > enjoy
>> > > what I and my friends already know is the best damn sport in the
>> > > world. What I see now are more students, demo rides and commercial
>> > > rides vying for an already small support system. The end result, no
>> > > one is happy: long lines on the launch queue, priority given to those
>> > > who feel one group of pilots, students/CFIG's need to be pushed to
>> > > the
>> > > front of the line at the expense of those who are strapped in and
>> > > ready to go XC, demo rides given priority because "it's for the good
>> > > of soaring". No thanks................in an FBO scenario this is
>> > > great, they want business and long lines mean business. For a club
>> > > that wants to be everything to everybody it doesn't work.
>>
>> > > Soaring isn't an inherently selfish sport, but when the WX is good
>> > > and
>> > > the clouds fill the sky altruism goes out the window.
>>
>> > > Brad- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > As in all things, there needs to be a degree of balance. Our club runs
>> > our Pawnee all day with training going all day.
>> > BUT- when "rush hour" starts(single seaters mostly) the second tug
>> > goes in service and we drop back to one training glider for a couple
>> > hrs, then back to 2 for balance of the day.
>> > Once in a while, someone will grumble about training making them wait
>> > a few extra minutes for a tow. That's when I remind them that they
>> > were the guy in the trainer waiting for rush hour to tail off not so
>> > long ago.
>> > Most operations need a balance of both top remain financially viable.
>> > Nobody comes out to soar on the cloudy days, but the training and
>> > rides still go on.
>> > Everybody needs to feel that get to be at the front of the line
>> > sometime.
>> > If soaring clubs and operators tried to survive on just soaring tows
>> > on good days, all but a few would die and the cost for the rest would
>> > be enough to scare a lot of them off.
>> > And- ya gotta replace the ones that drop out or die off.
>> > UH- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> So we seem to agree that at least for the US, the biggest road-block
> for attracting and retaining young people is cost. This begs the
> question: what are the costs? If I read of aero-tow fees of $63, I am
> not surprised at all that young folks - even those with a steady job -
> are turned off. Therefore, we must find ways of lowering the cost per
> flight - at least for the initial part of the training. Any ideas?
> Ever heard of a thing called 'Winch' - a machine that reliably
> delivers a two-seat trainer to better than pattern altitude for a
> fraction of the operating cost of a tow plane? Ever wondered how it is
> possible for European clubs to train their students for far less than
> over here (US)? (Please, don't give that crap about the government
> paying for their planes, etc.!)
> There are some really encouraging developments ongoing in the US to
> make winches more affordable for clubs. Besides lowering the costs per
> flight, a winch launch provides a certain 'Wow-Factor'; something the
> younger crowd craves. I realize that not everybody will push his water-
> laden $180k glider into the winch queue but perhaps there are many
> pilots perfectly happy to do a couple of launches and maybe catch a
> thermal for a local flight. This is the segment not served by the club
> that charges $50+ per launch but is worth retaining!
> I see the winch as an integral part of the solution.
> My 2 cents worth ....
> Uli Neumann