Question about Rear Admiral, lower half

[Pechs1]

Shows ya all how long since I retired. Does O-8, Rear Adm., lower half, wear
one star or two?

When did they stop calling same pay grade 'Commodore'? I know they did for a
while.

Do Commanders of small-ish groups of ships, smaller than a CVBG, are they still
refered to as 'Commodore'?? Even if they are O-7s?

Thanks in advance-
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
>
> Shows ya all how long since I retired. Does O-8, Rear Adm., lower half,
wear
> one star or two?
>

O-8 would be upper half, two stars. O-7 is lower half, one star.

[Thomas Schoene]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message

> Shows ya all how long since I retired. Does O-8, Rear Adm., lower
> half, wear one star or two?

Lower half is O-7, not O-8 (I think you knew this, from below, but I just
wanted to make sure).

They wear one star.

>
> When did they stop calling same pay grade 'Commodore'? I know they
> did for a while.

It was Commodore Admiral in 1981-82 and just plain Commodore in 1982-85.

> Do Commanders of small-ish groups of ships, smaller than a CVBG, are
> they still refered to as 'Commodore'?? Even if they are O-7s?

No, an O-7 would be "admiral." "Commodore" is just a courtesy title for
captains (and very rarely lower ranks).


--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Robert Moore]

(Pechs1) wrote

> Shows ya all how long since I retired. Does O-8, Rear Adm.,
> lower half, wear one star or two?
>
> When did they stop calling same pay grade 'Commodore'? I know
> they did for a while.

From the following web page:

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_rank

The one-star rank appeared again in 1982 with the title of
"Commodore Admiral." The rank became simply "Commodore" the
next year, and went back to rear admiral (lower half) in 1985.
At that time it was mandated that rear admirals (lower half)
would wear only one star, as the two stars authorized previously
caused some resentment among US Army and US Air Force brigadier
generals.

Bob Moore

[Ogden Johnson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

>"Pechs1" > wrote in message

>>Shows ya all how long since I retired. Does O-8, Rear Adm., lower half, wear
>>one star or two?

>O-8 would be upper half, two stars. O-7 is lower half, one star.

Which still, sort of, begs the thrust of Pech1's question. If a Rear
Admiral [O-7] retired when Rear Admirals of the lower half still wore
two stars, would they wear two stars when in uniform now, or do
regulations prescribe [actually, I assume they do - but remember the
old saw] they wear the current uniform of a Rear Admiral [Lower Half],
and thus one star?
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo addy burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> Which still, sort of, begs the thrust of Pech1's question. If a Rear
> Admiral [O-7] retired when Rear Admirals of the lower half still wore
> two stars, would they wear two stars when in uniform now, or do
> regulations prescribe [actually, I assume they do - but remember the
> old saw] they wear the current uniform of a Rear Admiral [Lower Half],
> and thus one star?
>

Pechs1's question was asked in the present tense, and did not contain the
word "retired".

[Ogden Johnson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

>"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message

>> Which still, sort of, begs the thrust of Pech1's question. If a Rear
>> Admiral [O-7] retired when Rear Admirals of the lower half still wore
>> two stars, would they wear two stars when in uniform now, or do
>> regulations prescribe [actually, I assume they do - but remember the
>> old saw] they wear the current uniform of a Rear Admiral [Lower Half],
>> and thus one star?

>Pechs1's question was asked in the present tense, and did not contain the
>word "retired".

Note to self. Don't try to watch the NFL pre-game shows and read/post
to the Usenet at the same time. Therein lies the potential for great
error and embarrassment. Wait until the Redskins game has actually
started and they're blowing it again.
--
OJ III
[Email to Yahoo addy burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

[John Carrier]

Rear Admiral, lower half, is an O-7 (one broad stripe, one star). Rear
Admiral, upper half, is an O-8 (the big JG, two stars). Commodore was in
and out in a hurry. Used to refer to all kinds of O-6 bonus command slots
(Commodore FTG, Commodore TRAWING One, Commodore DESRON 2, etc), then they
tried it on O-7 and the flag guys HATED it (General, Admiral, Commodore?).
We're now back to the old usage of Commodore. Been that way since long
before you retired, Peaches.

R / John

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Shows ya all how long since I retired. Does O-8, Rear Adm., lower half,
wear
> one star or two?
>
> When did they stop calling same pay grade 'Commodore'? I know they did for
a
> while.
>
> Do Commanders of small-ish groups of ships, smaller than a CVBG, are they
still
> refered to as 'Commodore'?? Even if they are O-7s?
>
> Thanks in advance-
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)
> Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
Phlyer

[Jake Donovan]

Commodore is a Title not a rank. (2003) You are correct in O7 RADM Lower and
O8 RADM Upper Half.

Commodore is actually, as a rank, a wartime designation for a one star.
Somewhere along the line, they played around with it and finally went back
to the peace time ranks. If you check with Bupers, you can find the O7
Commodore and O7 RADM Lowerhalf explanations.

JD

PS - But for the life of me, I could never understand the AF / Army Lt Gen
out ranking a Major Gen. LOL ( and before someone tries to explain it to
me, I KNOW that a Lt Gen is 3 stars and a Major Gen is 2 stars. As it is the
same in the Marines)


"John Carrier" > wrote in message
...
> Rear Admiral, lower half, is an O-7 (one broad stripe, one star). Rear
> Admiral, upper half, is an O-8 (the big JG, two stars). Commodore was in
> and out in a hurry. Used to refer to all kinds of O-6 bonus command slots
> (Commodore FTG, Commodore TRAWING One, Commodore DESRON 2, etc), then they
> tried it on O-7 and the flag guys HATED it (General, Admiral, Commodore?).
> We're now back to the old usage of Commodore. Been that way since long
> before you retired, Peaches.
>
> R / John
>
> "Pechs1" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Shows ya all how long since I retired. Does O-8, Rear Adm., lower half,
> wear
> > one star or two?
> >
> > When did they stop calling same pay grade 'Commodore'? I know they did
for
> a
> > while.
> >
> > Do Commanders of small-ish groups of ships, smaller than a CVBG, are
they
> still
> > refered to as 'Commodore'?? Even if they are O-7s?
> >
> > Thanks in advance-
> > P. C. Chisholm
> > CDR, USN(ret.)
> > Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye
> Phlyer
>
>

[Red]

"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:tVJdb.22376$AH4.14139@lakeread06...

SNIP SNIP SNIP SNIP!
> PS - But for the life of me, I could never understand the AF / Army Lt Gen
> out ranking a Major Gen. LOL ( and before someone tries to explain it to
> me, I KNOW that a Lt Gen is 3 stars and a Major Gen is 2 stars. As it is
the
> same in the Marines)
>
Many, many years ago I heard an explanation for this. As best I recall they
said Lt Gen was a rank in the regular army. The mounted (calvary) army
decided to be different and call their general of the same pay grade a
MajGen. Of course it wasn't long before they were trying to convince
everyone that MajGen out ranked Lt.Gen. The regular army didn't buy it.

Your fables may vary.

Red

[Justin Broderick]

"Red" > wrote in message
. ..

> Many, many years ago I heard an explanation for this. As best I recall
they
> said Lt Gen was a rank in the regular army. The mounted (calvary) army
> decided to be different and call their general of the same pay grade a
> MajGen. Of course it wasn't long before they were trying to convince
> everyone that MajGen out ranked Lt.Gen. The regular army didn't buy it.
>
> Your fables may vary.
>

It's simpler than that. Originally (17th century) it was "Captain General,"
"Lieutenant General," and "Sergeant Major General." That's "general" as in
above all others, like Attorney General or Postmaster General. Over the
years the "captain" and "sergeant" were dropped, and "general" went from an
adjective to a noun.

--Justin

[Justin Broderick]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...

>
> Do Commanders of small-ish groups of ships, smaller than a CVBG, are they
still
> refered to as 'Commodore'??

It's all about the flags. Any command that entitles an officer to the broad
command pennant (ComDesRon, ComSubRon, ComPhibRon, ComPatWing, etc.) carries
with it the title of commodore. AFAIK these are always O-6 commands.

> Even if they are O-7s?

Nope, then they are flag officers, no command pennant.

--Justin

[Justin Broderick]

"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
...
> If a Rear
> Admiral [O-7] retired when Rear Admirals of the lower half still wore
> two stars, would they wear two stars when in uniform now, or do
> regulations prescribe [actually, I assume they do - but remember the
> old saw] they wear the current uniform of a Rear Admiral [Lower Half],
> and thus one star?

Retired personnel have the option to wear the uniform presently authorized,
or according to the regulations in force at the time they separated. So
they could wear their two stars.

--Justin

[Tex Houston]

"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message
news:tVJdb.22376$AH4.14139@lakeread06...
> JD
>
> PS - But for the life of me, I could never understand the AF / Army Lt Gen
> out ranking a Major Gen. LOL ( and before someone tries to explain it to
> me, I KNOW that a Lt Gen is 3 stars and a Major Gen is 2 stars. As it is
the
> same in the Marines)


You have to go back to the meaning of lieutenant, vice (regent if I remember
correctly) or in lieu of. in other words one who act for a superior, thus
lieutenant colonel or lieutenant general. That said, I do not remember why
lieutenant starts the officer ranks.

Tex Houston

[Pechs1]

Steven-<< O-8 would be upper half, two stars. O-7 is lower half, one star.
>><BR><BR>

Yep, what I meant, can ya tell I retired as a O-5?-never saw O-6 or 7...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Pechs1]

Tex-<< You have to go back to the meaning of lieutenant, vice (regent if I
remember
correctly) or in lieu of. in other words one who act for a superior, thus
lieutenant colonel or lieutenant general. That said, I do not remember why
lieutenant starts the officer ranks. >><BR><BR>

It doesn't, it starts with "Ensign"...

;i-)
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Tex Houston]

"Pechs1" > wrote in message
...
> Tex-<< You have to go back to the meaning of lieutenant, vice (regent if I
> remember
> correctly) or in lieu of. in other words one who act for a superior, thus
> lieutenant colonel or lieutenant general. That said, I do not remember
why
> lieutenant starts the officer ranks. >><BR><BR>
>
> It doesn't, it starts with "Ensign"...
>
> ;i-)
> P. C. Chisholm

Even call a Marine 'Ensign'...Don't! (vbg)

Tex

[John]

I had the honor (?) of a burgee and everybody called me Commodore except the
Disbursing folks...


"Justin Broderick" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Pechs1" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > Do Commanders of small-ish groups of ships, smaller than a CVBG, are
they
> still
> > refered to as 'Commodore'??
>
> It's all about the flags. Any command that entitles an officer to the
broad
> command pennant (ComDesRon, ComSubRon, ComPhibRon, ComPatWing, etc.)
carries
> with it the title of commodore. AFAIK these are always O-6 commands.
>
> > Even if they are O-7s?
>
> Nope, then they are flag officers, no command pennant.
>
> --Justin
>
>

[Mike Kanze]

> I had the honor (?) of a burgee and everybody called me Commodore except
the Disbursing folks...

Hell, I didn't care WHAT the porkchops called me, so long as I was paid
promptly and correctly. <g>
--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"There was also talk of bringing Al Gore to California to help out, but
there was concern that Gray Davis and Al Gore in the same state would cause
some kind of rolling personality blackout."

- Jay Leno


"John" > wrote in message
...
[rest snipped]

[Pechs1]

Tex-<< Even call a Marine 'Ensign'...Don't! >><BR><BR>

Nope, we called our Marines 'Ugly Little Sisters'..

Got tired of being called 'captain' while on USAF exchange also..even when I
had a Khaiki hat on..
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[Charlie Wolf]

Hmmm - I heard they called you something else...

(kidding)
Regards,

On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:30:53 GMT, "John" >
wrote:

>I had the honor (?) of a burgee and everybody called me Commodore except the
>Disbursing folks...
>
>
>"Justin Broderick" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>>
>> "Pechs1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> >
>> > Do Commanders of small-ish groups of ships, smaller than a CVBG, are
>they
>> still
>> > refered to as 'Commodore'??
>>
>> It's all about the flags. Any command that entitles an officer to the
>broad
>> command pennant (ComDesRon, ComSubRon, ComPhibRon, ComPatWing, etc.)
>carries
>> with it the title of commodore. AFAIK these are always O-6 commands.
>>
>> > Even if they are O-7s?
>>
>> Nope, then they are flag officers, no command pennant.
>>
>> --Justin
>>
>>
>

[J. McEachen]

This brings back the memories of a USAF Captain on exchange duty with
VAH-5 41 years ago. He had maybe 4,000 hours multi-engine including the
RB-66. After A-3 plane commander training in the RAG/VAH-3, he reported
aboard VAH-5 preparing for the 1962 Forrestal Med cruise. He completed
FCLP's with squadron pilots, did his day carquals, and one night
proceeded out with a few other Whales to FDR for night carquals.

He made a nice first approach and got an OK-3, but sat transfixed by the
experience, frozen with his right hand on the fully advanced throttles,
ignoring his b/n's and pri-fly's calls - and the plane director's
directions - to "cut your throttles." He finally came up on the radio
saying, "This is my first #@% &#$ night landing, let me catch my $*@#
breath." As he taxied out of the wires, another firmer voice came up
saying, "Somerset 607, say pilot's name and rank."

Whether it was him or the b/n who answered I don't know, I think my ear
canals were constricting at the moment, but loud and clear came,
"Dursteler, William; rank, Captain."

From the bridge came, "Thank you, sir. Have a good evening."

I know many of you have similar stories, but Bill was a fine Mushmouth
and Heavy Attack pilot. I think several A-3's nearly taxied overboard
that night with laughter. I had the honor of tracking him down several
years ago to get him together with some squadron mates and we talked a
little. He told me that when he returned to the Air Force, he was
current in five Navy a/c including the A-5A/RA-5C Vigilante, something
unheard of in the AF, where one a/c seemed to have been the norm.
Joel McEachen

Pechs1 wrote:
> Tex-<< Even call a Marine 'Ensign'...Don't! >><BR><BR>
>
> Nope, we called our Marines 'Ugly Little Sisters'..
>
> Got tired of being called 'captain' while on USAF exchange also..
> even when I had a Khaki hat on..
> P. C. Chisholm
> CDR, USN(ret.)

[John Penta]

<looks> Y'know, why don't they do the USN rank structure like THIS:


O-6 commanding squadron: Fleet Captain
O-7: Commodore
O-8: Rear Admiral
O-9: Vice Admiral
0-10: Admiral
O-11 (5-star): Fleet Admiral.

It provides a nice symmatery, I'd think.

[Ogden Johnson III]

John Penta > wrote:

><looks> Y'know, why don't they do the USN rank structure like THIS:
>
>
> O-6 commanding squadron: Fleet Captain
> O-7: Commodore
> O-8: Rear Admiral
> O-9: Vice Admiral
> 0-10: Admiral
> O-11 (5-star): Fleet Admiral.
>
>It provides a nice symmatery, I'd think.

Symmetry too. ;->

Unfortunately, at the top end there will never again be a five-star
Admiral, Fleet or otherwise [nor a five-star general, either]. The
only reason we ever had them [remembering that Washington's and
Pershing's designations as Generals of the Armies came well after
their respective wars] was as an attempt to shut up Monty, who was
causing Ike all sorts of grief. It was a hope that making Ike a
five-star to match Monty's baton would ease things. And if Ike got
five, then Leahy, Marshall, King, Arnold, Nimitz had to get them too.
Which made it Army 4 to the Navy's 3. That wouldn't do, so ...

At the bottom end there are even more problems. Rear Admirals of
either flavor, O-7 or O-8, are very protective of their rank title.
Are you too young to remember the, mercifully brief, imbroglios when
O-7s were briefly titled Commodore/Commodore-Admiral? They grudgingly
accepted, after a long fight, wearing only one-star, but the title of
Commodore or Commodore-Admiral was anathema. The only flag officers
to carry the rank/title of Commodore were the retreads called back in
WWII to command convoys. "And you want to call *us* Commodores?"

And O-6 division/squadron/whatever commanders are also very parochial
about their being called Commodore. "Fleet Captain? Sounds like I'm
the Sixth Fleet Chief of Staff. I *command* a [SubRon, CruDesRon,
WhateverRon], I don't push papers for some Admiral like an Executive
Assistant."

We Marines are very protective of our own history, customs, and
traditions, but we have to tip our covers in admiration of the Navy
Officer Corps attitudes in that respect. They make us look like we
chase the latest fads.

[John Penta]

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 14:22:59 -0400, Ogden Johnson III
> wrote:

>
>
>At the bottom end there are even more problems. Rear Admirals of
>either flavor, O-7 or O-8, are very protective of their rank title.
>Are you too young to remember the, mercifully brief, imbroglios when
>O-7s were briefly titled Commodore/Commodore-Admiral? They grudgingly
>accepted, after a long fight, wearing only one-star, but the title of
>Commodore or Commodore-Admiral was anathema. The only flag officers
>to carry the rank/title of Commodore were the retreads called back in
>WWII to command convoys. "And you want to call *us* Commodores?"

<reads> I was born in 1983, so forgive me if I seem naive.

I'm not as much of an idiot as I may appear, really.:-)

I'm MORE of an idiot than I appear.:-)

[Joel Shepherd]

Ogden Johnson III wrote:
> The only flag officers to carry the rank/title of Commodore were
> the retreads called back in WWII to command convoys. "And you want
> to call *us* Commodores?"

I'm a little confused (but what else is new?).

Didn't Arleigh Burke carry the rank of Commodore when he was
Mitscher's Chief of Staff?

I thought he had commanded a DesRon prior to that, but like I said, I
may be confused.

--
Joel.

[Red]

Being a Commodore, is a lot like being "frocked" or kissed by your cousin.
It may make you feal good but it doesn't count.

[Justin Broderick]

"Joel Shepherd" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Ogden Johnson III wrote:
> > The only flag officers to carry the rank/title of Commodore were
> > the retreads called back in WWII to command convoys. "And you want
> > to call *us* Commodores?"
>
> I'm a little confused (but what else is new?).
>
> Didn't Arleigh Burke carry the rank of Commodore when he was
> Mitscher's Chief of Staff?
>
> I thought he had commanded a DesRon prior to that, but like I said, I
> may be confused.
>

You're quite right. Capt Burke was a "title" commodore as ComDesRon 23 in
1943 and '44. He was assigned as chief of staff to CTF 58 (Mitscher) in
March 1944.

Meanwhile the actual rank of commodore was being revived. There were quite
a number of captains serving in low-flag-level posts, but Ernest King
worried that creating a bunch of new RAdms would clog up the post-war ranks.
He proposed that the grade of commodore be reinstated for these officers,
but as a temporary rank that would be phased out after the war.

FDR approved, but said that he preferred that this traditional rank be given
only to line commanders.

King also proposed that the wartime commodores be appointed directly by the
President, but the Senate refused to
give up their confirmation power, even for a temporary rank.

In April 1943 the rank of commodore was reinstated. The lone broad stripe
and one star insignia (which, though unused, were still in the Uniform Regs)
were worn again, and the one-star broad pennant reappeared in the signal
books. Despite FDR's original wishes, there were a number of medical,
supply and civil engineer corps commodores.

The billet of CoS to a VAdm became a commodore slot in mid-1944, and Burke
was promoted accordingly. At the same time King formalized the practice of
pairing an aviator commander with a black shoe CoS and vice versa. Thus
Spruance's trusted CoS Capt Carl Moore was relieved by RAdm Arthur Davis,
while Commodores Valentine Schaeffer and Tom Jeter (recent carrier captains)
were assigned to VAdms Kinkaid and Lee respectively.

Burke, like most other wartime commodores, reverted to captain when the rank
was phased out post-war. There were few, if any, promotions from Como to
RAdm.

--Justin

[Pechs1]

Justin-<< while Commodores Valentine Schaeffer and Tom Jeter (recent carrier
captains) >><BR><BR>

Did Commodore Schaeffer have a callsign when he was a JO??
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer