Compass Correction Card

[glider[_2_]]

Just for fun......

A long time ago, I was told that a compass correction card is
required.
I was also told it didn't have to be filled out.
That may not be a good idea.
No need to upset our FAA friends.

GA

[lanebush]

I believe AC 43.13B can give you a little guidance on that matter.



AC 43.13-1B lists several instances when a compass swing must be
performed. These include:
Whenever the accuracy of the compass is suspected

After a cockpit modification or major replacement involving ferrous
metal

Whenever a compass has been subjected to a shock; for example, after a
hard landing or turbulence

After aircraft has passed through a severe electrical storm

After a lightning strike

Whenever a change is made to the electrical system

Whenever a change of cargo is likely to affect the compass

After an aircraft has been parked on one heading for more than a year

When flux valves are replaced.



An often overlooked matter amongst us aviation technicians.

Lane

[[email protected]]

On Jan 22, 6:03*pm, glider > wrote:
> Just for fun......
>
> * A long time ago, I was told that a compass correction card is
> required.
> * I was also told it didn't have to be filled out.
> * That may not be a good idea.
> * No need to upset our FAA friends.
>
> * GA

If compass is perfect, I've been told by my IA, no correction card is
required.
Find a fed that will buy that!
UH

[Morgans[_2_]]

> wrote

If compass is perfect, I've been told by my IA, no correction card is
required.
Find a fed that will buy that!


Prolly' wouldn't. Just put all zeros on a correction card.
--
Jim in NC

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jan 22, 8:04*pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> > wrote
>
> If compass is perfect, I've been told by my IA, no correction card is
> required.
> Find a fed that will buy that!
>
> Prolly' wouldn't. *Just put all zeros on a correction card.
> --
> Jim in NC

I think you are all missing the point.

If no compass is required there cannot be a requirement for a
correction card.

Andy

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jan 22, 8:27*pm, Andy > wrote:

> I think you are all missing the point.
>
> If no compass is required there cannot be a requirement for a
> correction card.
>
> Andy

In the world of Federal Aviation Regulations the compass is called a
"magnetic direction indicator" and the compass correction card is a
"placard". Try a search of all the regulations (www.landings.com) and
try to find one regulation related to the installation of a magnetic
direction indicator in a "glider" or an "aircraft" - I found none!
All the regulatory requirements are specific to airplanes, rotorcraft,
or certain airships.

Anyone who finds one related to gliders please let me know. Otherwise
celebrate your freedom by burning your correction cards.

Andy

[jcarlyle]

At least for my LS8-18, the feds can get you another way - a compass
is on the Minimum Equipment List. So my glider <is> required to have a
"magnetic direction indicator". The jury is still out on a correction
card, though...

-John


On Jan 22, 11:07 pm, Andy > wrote:
> In the world of Federal Aviation Regulations the compass is called a
> "magnetic direction indicator" and the compass correction card is a
> "placard". Try a search of all the regulations (www.landings.com) and
> try to find one regulation related to the installation of a magnetic
> direction indicator in a "glider" or an "aircraft" - I found none!
> All the regulatory requirements are specific to airplanes, rotorcraft,
> or certain airships.
>
> Anyone who finds one related to gliders please let me know. Otherwise
> celebrate your freedom by burning your correction cards.
>
> Andy

[John Smith]

> At least for my LS8-18, the feds can get you another way - a compass
> is on the Minimum Equipment List.

I doubt it. A compass is on the minimum equipment list *for cloud flying*.

[Stefan[_3_]]

> The jury is still out on a correction card, though...

I don't know the FAA rules, but in JAR (now EASA) country, the
regulation is:

JAR 22.1547 Magnetic direction indicator
Unless the deviation is less than 5° on all headings, the deviation
values for magnetic headings in not more than 30° increments must be
placarded near the magnetic direction indicator.


This of course only counts if the compass is part of the required equipment.

[jcarlyle]

You doubt it?

I direct your attention to page 2-7 of the Dec 2001 LS8-18 Flight
Manual. In Section 2.10 Minimum Equipment List, it states "Magnetic
Compass. Under the following paragraph Additonally for Cloud Flying it
states "Compass".

I doubt I'll receive an apology...

-John


On Jan 23, 9:50 am, John Smith > wrote:
> > At least for my LS8-18, the feds can get you another way - a compass
> > is on the Minimum Equipment List.
>
> I doubt it. A compass is on the minimum equipment list *for cloud flying*.

[Ralph Jones[_2_]]

On Fri, 22 Jan 2010 19:27:47 -0800 (PST), Andy >
wrote:

>On Jan 22, 8:04*pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
>> > wrote
>>
>> If compass is perfect, I've been told by my IA, no correction card is
>> required.
>> Find a fed that will buy that!
>>
>> Prolly' wouldn't. *Just put all zeros on a correction card.
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>
>I think you are all missing the point.
>
>If no compass is required there cannot be a requirement for a
>correction card.
>
Wouldn't be too sure about that. I believe a non-required instrument
which is not functioning properly (which might well include an
uncorrected compass) must be covered up or removed. A power club I
once belonged to ran into that, being forced to remove a failed DG
from a VFR-only airplane.

rj

[Tony V]

jcarlyle wrote:
> At least for my LS8-18, the feds can get you another way - a compass
> is on the Minimum Equipment List. So my glider <is> required to have a
> "magnetic direction indicator".

No. That is not what the minimum equipment list means.

Only a government agency could come up with something like this: A
Minimum Equipment List (MEL) is an FAA approved list of instruments that
may be *defective* and still have the aircraft to be considered airworthy.

See section 6.p
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/13c094a06437c5fa862569d900744d86/$FILE/Chap1-2.pdf

Tony V LS6-b "6N"

[jcarlyle]

On Jan 23, 11:02 pm, Tony V > wrote:
> jcarlyle wrote:
> > At least for my LS8-18, the feds can get you another way - a compass
> > is on the Minimum Equipment List. So my glider <is> required to have a
> > "magnetic direction indicator".
>
> No. That is not what the minimum equipment list means.
>
> Only a government agency could come up with something like this: A
> Minimum Equipment List (MEL) is an FAA approved list of instruments that
> may be *defective* and still have the aircraft to be considered airworthy.
>
> See section 6.phttp://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular...
>
> Tony V LS6-b "6N"

I see what you mean, Tony - that FAA definition is indeed perverted!
Two questions for you:

1) A magnetic compass is on the LS8 MEL, which seems to indicate that
you have to physically have a compass in the aircraft. Does AC 91-67
allow you put a placard over a blank hole saying "compass inoperative"
and fly with no compass until the next condition inspection?

2) Under the "Additionally for Cloud Flying" paragraph of the LS8 MEL
a turn and bank indicator is listed. Does AC 91-67 imply that I can
placard a T&B "inoperative" in 1/8" high letters and go look at the
interior of clouds (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
fly a glider in clouds in the US)?

-John

[Tony V]

>> Only a government agency could come up with something like this: A
>> Minimum Equipment List (MEL) is an FAA approved list of instruments that
>> may be *defective* and still have the aircraft to be considered airworthy.
>>
>> See section 6.phttp://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular...
>>
>> Tony V LS6-b "6N"
>
> I see what you mean, Tony - that FAA definition is indeed perverted!
> Two questions for you:

You'll have to ask an IA for those questions, unfortunately.

> 1) A magnetic compass is on the LS8 MEL, which seems to indicate that
> you have to physically have a compass in the aircraft. Does AC 91-67
> allow you put a placard over a blank hole saying "compass inoperative"
> and fly with no compass until the next condition inspection?
>
> 2) Under the "Additionally for Cloud Flying" paragraph of the LS8 MEL
> a turn and bank indicator is listed. Does AC 91-67 imply that I can
> placard a T&B "inoperative" in 1/8" high letters and go look at the
> interior of clouds (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
> fly a glider in clouds in the US)?

It's really very unusual for a glider to even have an MEL. I'm not sure
that the point (advantage) of one is.

Tony

[jcarlyle]

Tony V wrote:
> >> Only a government agency could come up with something like this: A
> >> Minimum Equipment List (MEL) is an FAA approved list of instruments that
> >> may be *defective* and still have the aircraft to be considered airworthy.
> >>
> >> See section 6.phttp://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular...
> >>
> >> Tony V LS6-b "6N"
> >
> > I see what you mean, Tony - that FAA definition is indeed perverted!
> > Two questions for you:
>
> You'll have to ask an IA for those questions, unfortunately.
>
> > 1) A magnetic compass is on the LS8 MEL, which seems to indicate that
> > you have to physically have a compass in the aircraft. Does AC 91-67
> > allow you put a placard over a blank hole saying "compass inoperative"
> > and fly with no compass until the next condition inspection?
> >
> > 2) Under the "Additionally for Cloud Flying" paragraph of the LS8 MEL
> > a turn and bank indicator is listed. Does AC 91-67 imply that I can
> > placard a T&B "inoperative" in 1/8" high letters and go look at the
> > interior of clouds (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
> > fly a glider in clouds in the US)?
>
> It's really very unusual for a glider to even have an MEL. I'm not sure
> that the point (advantage) of one is.
>
> Tony

I wonder if the LS8 having a MEL isn't a result of translation. I'd
bet that the Germans are using MEL in the normal sense (ie, you must
have these things in order to fly, but can add more if you want)
instead of the FAA sense (ie, you can fly without these things if some
don't work - just label them inoperative).

-John

[Andy[_1_]]

On Jan 24, 7:54*am, jcarlyle > wrote:

>
> I wonder if the LS8 having a MEL isn't a result of translation. I'd
> bet that the Germans are using MEL in the normal sense (ie, you must
> have these things in order to fly, but can add more if you want)

I'd agree with that. My 28 manual refers to "minimum equipment" but
this is not intended in the context of the very specific "Minimum
Equipment List" which typically (at least in my experience) only
applies to larger transport category aircraft.

Andy

[Westbender]

> I wonder if the LS8 having a MEL isn't a result of translation. I'd
> bet that the Germans are using MEL in the normal sense (ie, you must
> have these things in order to fly, but can add more if you want)
> instead of the FAA sense (ie, you can fly without these things if some
> don't work - just label them inoperative).

The MEL for my ship doesn't quite agree between the flight manual and
the TCDS. However the magnetic compass is listed in both.


My LS1f flight manual MEL:

airspeed indicator
altimeter
magnetic compass
seat belt and shoulder harness
cushion or parachute
checklist
load and performance placard
flight manual

additionally for cloud flying:
turn and bank indicator -or- artificial horizon
variometer



MEL from the TCDS (G35EU):

1. non-cloud flying
airspeed indicator
altimeter
magnetic compass

2. cloud flying
turn and slip
variometer

3. LBA approved flight manual

[kirk.stant]

On Jan 24, 7:42*am, jcarlyle > wrote:

> 2) Under the "Additionally for Cloud Flying" paragraph of the LS8 MEL
> a turn and bank indicator is listed. Does AC 91-67 imply that I can
> placard a T&B "inoperative" in 1/8" high letters and go look at the
> interior of clouds (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
> fly a glider in clouds in the US)?
>
> -John

Actually, if the glider is properly equipped, and the pilot is
qualified, it is totally legal to fly in clouds in the US - you just
have to have an IFR clearance if it's in controlled airspace. Not
common, but I know of at least one Nimbus 3 driver who does it down in
Florida.

Theoretically, there are some bits of uncontrolled airspace in the
West where you could fly IMC (equipped and qualified, of course)
without a clearance - but they are pretty hard to find!

This has been discussed previously on RAS, I believe.

Meanwhile, I have a nice pretty compass card in my cockpit, just for
grins (I actually swung the compass one non-soarable day). Don't use
it, though...

Kirk
66

[John Smith]

> I direct your attention to page 2-7 of the Dec 2001 LS8-18 Flight
> Manual. In Section 2.10 Minimum Equipment List, it states "Magnetic
> Compass. Under the following paragraph Additonally for Cloud Flying it
> states "Compass".
>
> I doubt I'll receive an apology...

You doubt correctly. Im my flight manual (the original German one), I
read on page 2-11 (not 2-7) (ad hoc translated by me):

Minimal equipment: airspeed indicator, altimeter, thermometer, radio.
(But *no* compass.)

Additional minimal equipment for cloud flying: turn indicator, compass,
vario.

So there's something fishy with your manual. And yes, no apologies.

[John Smith]

> ... (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
> fly a glider in clouds in the US)

It is perfecly legal even in the USA, provided you have the required
qualifications. This has been discussed here many times.

[jcarlyle]

I have the advantage of reading it in English, no ad hoc translation
required. And yes, it is exactly as I posted above, a compass is on
both the minimum equipment list and on the cloud flying list. Since a
LS1f driver also has a compass on the minimum equipment list, it looks
like the fish is rotting on your side.

-John

On Jan 25, 7:08 am, John Smith > wrote:
>> You doubt correctly. Im my flight manual (the original German one), I
> read on page 2-11 (not 2-7) (ad hoc translated by me):
>
> Minimal equipment: airspeed indicator, altimeter, thermometer, radio.
> (But *no* compass.)
>
> Additional minimal equipment for cloud flying: turn indicator, compass,
> vario.
>
> So there's something fishy with your manual. And yes, no apologies.

[jcarlyle]

Right you are, Kirk. Pilots with instrument ratings can certainly fly
in cloud in the US, if the glider is equipped. I'm not, and it isn't,
so I don't, and I forgot.

The point of the question, though, was if the glider is equipped and
the T&B goes kaput, if you're an idiot can you placard the T&B
"inoperative" as per AC 91-67 and still legally go fly in cloud?

-John

On Jan 24, 3:06 pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Jan 24, 7:42 am, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
> > 2) Under the "Additionally for Cloud Flying" paragraph of the LS8 MEL
> > a turn and bank indicator is listed. Does AC 91-67 imply that I can
> > placard a T&B "inoperative" in 1/8" high letters and go look at the
> > interior of clouds (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
> > fly a glider in clouds in the US)?
>
> > -John
>
> Actually, if the glider is properly equipped, and the pilot is
> qualified, it is totally legal to fly in clouds in the US - you just
> have to have an IFR clearance if it's in controlled airspace. Not
> common, but I know of at least one Nimbus 3 driver who does it down in
> Florida.
>
> Theoretically, there are some bits of uncontrolled airspace in the
> West where you could fly IMC (equipped and qualified, of course)
> without a clearance - but they are pretty hard to find!
>
> This has been discussed previously on RAS, I believe.
>
> Meanwhile, I have a nice pretty compass card in my cockpit, just for
> grins (I actually swung the compass one non-soarable day). Don't use
> it, though...
>
> Kirk
> 66

[Tony[_5_]]

On Jan 25, 8:17*am, jcarlyle > wrote:
> Right you are, Kirk. Pilots with instrument ratings can certainly fly
> in cloud in the US, if the glider is equipped. I'm not, and it isn't,
> so I don't, and I forgot.
>
> The point of the question, though, was if the glider is equipped and
> the T&B goes kaput, if you're an idiot can you placard the T&B
> "inoperative" as per AC 91-67 and still legally go fly in cloud?
>
> -John
>
> On Jan 24, 3:06 pm, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 24, 7:42 am, jcarlyle > wrote:
>
> > > 2) Under the "Additionally for Cloud Flying" paragraph of the LS8 MEL
> > > a turn and bank indicator is listed. Does AC 91-67 imply that I can
> > > placard a T&B "inoperative" in 1/8" high letters and go look at the
> > > interior of clouds (disregarding for the moment that it isn't legal to
> > > fly a glider in clouds in the US)?
>
> > > -John
>
> > Actually, if the glider is properly equipped, and the pilot is
> > qualified, it is totally legal to fly in clouds in the US - you just
> > have to have an IFR clearance if it's in controlled airspace. *Not
> > common, but I know of at least one Nimbus 3 driver who does it down in
> > Florida.
>
> > Theoretically, there are some bits of uncontrolled airspace in the
> > West where you could fly IMC (equipped and qualified, of course)
> > without a clearance - but they are pretty hard to find!
>
> > This has been discussed previously on RAS, I believe.
>
> > Meanwhile, I have a nice pretty compass card in my cockpit, just for
> > grins (I actually swung the compass one non-soarable day). Don't use
> > it, though...
>
> > Kirk
> > 66- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

no, if an instrument is on the required instrument list for a certain
type of operation then it must be installed and working. if it is not
on the required instrument list then it can be non-working and
placarded inoperative.

[John Smith]

Am 25.01.10 15:11, schrieb jcarlyle:
> I have the advantage of reading it in English, no ad hoc translation
> required. And yes, it is exactly as I posted above, a compass is on
> both the minimum equipment list and on the cloud flying list. Since a
> LS1f driver also has a compass on the minimum equipment list, it looks
> like the fish is rotting on your side.

A bit harsh, considering the German manual is the one on on which the LS
8 has been type certified. So maybe your FAA has added something to the
requirements, or maybe you're talking about a motorised LS8.

[jcarlyle]

This makes total sense! So what's the deal with AC 91-67 (brought up
by Tony V above)? AC 91-67 seems to be a total red herring - it
contradicts the sensible interpretation of a MEL and seemingly permits
a pilot to do something stupid.

-John

On Jan 25, 9:36 am, Tony > wrote:
> no, if an instrument is on the required instrument list for a certain
> type of operation then it must be installed and working. if it is not
> on the required instrument list then it can be non-working and
> placarded inoperative.

[jcarlyle]

Ah, well, there you're wrong again. The LS8 wasn't FAA type certified
on the German manual, but rather on the English one, according to the
references in the TCDS. The TCDS came about 2 years after my plane was
built, too. The manual I'm quoting refers to the motorless version,
and it definitely has a compass in the MEL.

-John

On Jan 25, 9:39 am, John Smith > wrote:
> A bit harsh, considering the German manual is the one on on which the LS
> 8 has been type certified. So maybe your FAA has added something to the
> requirements, or maybe you're talking about a motorised LS8.

[Tony[_5_]]

I think you are getting confused between an Equipment List and a
Minimum Equipment list (definition i in Section 6 of the AC). In the
FAA's eyes, your glider has an Equipment List which is provided by the
manufacturer and lists the equipment which must be installed and
working for any type of operation.

A Minimum Equipment List is a list of equipment that can be
inoperative under certain conditions and it also specifies the manner
in which the equipment must be de-activated (definition p in section 6
of the AC). I think it would be a fair bet that there is not a single
glider in the US that has an MEL.

MEL's are mainly used in aircraft in charter and airline service or
other operations where the operator wants to avoid potential headaches
and cancellations that could be caused by instrument or equipment
breakdowns, particularly instrument or equipment breakdowns away from
their maintenance base.

Hope this helps clear muddy water. good news though, the sun is back
out in the middle of the country, spring is coming, we'll all be
flying soon and then we can discuss our amazing flights here on RAS
instead of debating regulation!

Tony

[lanebush]

You guys are confusing your type certificate "minimum equipment list"
with a minimum equipment list developed as per AC91 for individual
operators. The MEL list for individual operators is typically seen in
revenue operations but can be approved for anyone. These MEL's that I
have been involved with (hundreds) have restrictions and conditions
under which MEL relief may be used. For example if the weather radar
is MEL'd then the aircraft is restricted from flying on routes with
forecasted thunderstorms or flying at night (this is under part 121
flying where radar is a required item). My involvement with MEL's
leads me to believe that if a required component for cloud flying is
inoperative and relief can be found within the MEL list, there are
probably restrictions such as "no cloud flying" listed beside that
item. I am shocked that any glider pilot has taken the time to
develop a MEL and have it approved by the FSDO. You realize that
every operator must get a MEL approved in order to use it. I
purchased a Cessna 172 ten years ago that amazingly was on a part 135
certificate flying between Long Island an Connecticut. This
particular airplane had a MEL list approved. Once I purchased the
aircraft, the MEL list was no longer applicable unless I had it
approved by the FSDO in my home region and with me listed as the
operator.

So, if the compass is listed on the minimum equipment list on your
type certificate then it must be installed and operational. If
another component such as an electric variometer is NOT listed on your
type certificate but is installed, it may be placarded inop by the
owner. However, the FAA will not let an instrument remain installed
and inoperative without being placarded inop. Should you develop an
MEL and have it approved by your local FSDO you may be able to get
relief on inoperative components that are listed on your type
certificate but I doubt any of us would go to that expense for an
altimeter, variometer and compass.

[John Smith]

Am 25.01.10 16:01, schrieb jcarlyle:
> Ah, well, there you're wrong again. The LS8 wasn't FAA type certified
> on the German manual, but rather on the English one, according to the

If you have missed it: The LS is (was) a German factory, and the LS8 has
been first certified by the German LBA on the basis of JAR-22 (more
precisely: JAR-22, state of October 1985). Neither JAR-22 nor the
original German manual, which has been approved by the certifying
authorities, ask for a compass (or a magnetic direction indicator, as it
is officially called).

So if your manual prescribes one, then the only reason I can see is your
FAA asking for that addition. It is definitely not needed on this side
of the pond.

[jcarlyle]

Thanks, Tony, and lanebush.

The confusion definitely arose because the LS8 manual's Section 10 is
entitled "Minimum Equipment List". From what both of you wrote, this
is <not> the same as a FAA Minimum Equipment List. I definitely never
developed a FAA MEL and got such approved by a FSDO, so I truly don't
have a FAA MEL as per AC 91-67. But I <do> have a MEL according to the
Flight Manual!

English as she are spoke (by pilots and regulators)...

-John

On Jan 25, 10:12 am, Tony > wrote:
> I think you are getting confused between an Equipment List and a
> Minimum Equipment list (definition i in Section 6 of the AC). In the
> FAA's eyes, your glider has an Equipment List which is provided by the
> manufacturer and lists the equipment which must be installed and
> working for any type of operation.
>
> A Minimum Equipment List is a list of equipment that can be
> inoperative under certain conditions and it also specifies the manner
> in which the equipment must be de-activated (definition p in section 6
> of the AC). I think it would be a fair bet that there is not a single
> glider in the US that has an MEL.
>
> MEL's are mainly used in aircraft in charter and airline service or
> other operations where the operator wants to avoid potential headaches
> and cancellations that could be caused by instrument or equipment
> breakdowns, particularly instrument or equipment breakdowns away from
> their maintenance base.
>
> Hope this helps clear muddy water. good news though, the sun is back
> out in the middle of the country, spring is coming, we'll all be
> flying soon and then we can discuss our amazing flights here on RAS
> instead of debating regulation!
>
> Tony

[jcarlyle]

I didn't miss a thing - you did. You publically doubted that I could
read what in fact clearly appears in my manual. Now, faced with facts,
you're back-pedaling into "well, maybe it's in <your> manual but it
isn't in <mine>". Just because you're assuming things doesn't make me
wrong, you know.

Still waiting for that apology...

-John

On Jan 25, 10:55 am, John Smith > wrote:
> If you have missed it: The LS is (was) a German factory, and the LS8 has
> been first certified by the German LBA on the basis of JAR-22 (more
> precisely: JAR-22, state of October 1985). Neither JAR-22 nor the
> original German manual, which has been approved by the certifying
> authorities, ask for a compass (or a magnetic direction indicator, as it
> is officially called).
>
> So if your manual prescribes one, then the only reason I can see is your
> FAA asking for that addition. It is definitely not needed on this side
> of the pond.