Does anyone use the Club Class?

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

Does any country run competitions in the IGC Club Class?

USA does not. We have the Sports Class, which allows any glider to
enter, and another Sports Class (called, locally, the Club Class)
which uses a restricted list of gliders that is different from the IGC
Club Class list.

In another thread, in response to a question about inclusion of the
PW-5, Andreas said:

"Sure - the only limit to CLub Class in Germany at the moment is the
upper limit of 106 for the index."

which makes me think that Germany doesn't run any IGC Club Class
competitions.

And then Martin reacted to Andreas by saying "Its the same in the
UK...", which gives me the same impression about the UK.

Three major gliding countries that don't use the IGC Club Class. It
makes me wonder if anybody does.

-Pat

[JS]

It's like asking if any country uses the metric system of measurement!
All of them but the USA.
Jim

On Jan 28, 8:56*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> Does any country run competitions in the IGC Club Class? USA does not. *

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 08:56:08 -0800 (PST), Pat Russell
> wrote:

>Does any country run competitions in the IGC Club Class?

Yup...


>In another thread, in response to a question about inclusion of the
>PW-5, Andreas said:
>
>"Sure - the only limit to CLub Class in Germany at the moment is the
>upper limit of 106 for the index."
>
>which makes me think that Germany doesn't run any IGC Club Class
>competitions.

Well... actually Germany does.
In fact, Club Class is by far the most popular class in Germany.

Here's the list of qualification competitions for the German
nationals:
http://www.daec-segelflug.de/quali/index.php?action=wbw_lst.php

Please compare the sheer number of Club Class competitions to other
classes. :)


>Three major gliding countries that don't use the IGC Club Class. It
>makes me wonder if anybody does.

I think you got it wrong...

Here's the link to the Club Class World gliding championchips 2009:
http://www.wgcrieti.it/

Check out the nations that took part...




Bye
Andreas

[Liam]

On Jan 28, 9:07*am, JS > wrote:
> It's like asking if any country uses the metric system of measurement!
> * All of them but the USA.
> Jim
>
> On Jan 28, 8:56*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
>
> > Does any country run competitions in the IGC Club Class? USA does not. *

The metric system was invented by the French. It's a matter of
national pride.

[delboy]

On 28 Jan, 16:56, Pat Russell > wrote:
> Does any country run competitions in the IGC Club Class?
>
> USA does not. *We have the Sports Class, which allows any glider to
> enter, and another Sports Class (called, locally, the Club Class)
> which uses a restricted list of gliders that is different from the IGC
> Club Class list.
>
> In another thread, in response to a question about inclusion of the
> PW-5, Andreas said:
>
> "Sure - the only limit to CLub Class in Germany at the moment is the
> upper limit of 106 for the index."
>
> which makes me think that Germany doesn't run any IGC Club Class
> competitions.
>
> And then Martin reacted to Andreas by saying "Its the same in the
> UK...", which gives me the same impression about the UK.
>
> Three major gliding countries that don't use the IGC Club Class. *It
> makes me wonder if anybody does.
>
> -Pat

Just about every country in the World runs Club Class competitions,
except for the US. It's one of the most popular and highly competitive
national competition in the UK.

But then the USA insists on using imperial measurements, and even
their gallons are different to the UK ones. Shows the effects of
isolationism. Most countries have gone metric, and we have been buying
motor fuel in litres for years in the UK.

Derek Copeland

[glider12321]

On Jan 28, 11:15*am, delboy > wrote:
> On 28 Jan, 16:56, Pat Russell > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Does any country run competitions in the IGC Club Class?
>
> > USA does not. *We have the Sports Class, which allows any glider to
> > enter, and another Sports Class (called, locally, the Club Class)
> > which uses a restricted list of gliders that is different from the IGC
> > Club Class list.
>
> > In another thread, in response to a question about inclusion of the
> > PW-5, Andreas said:
>
> > "Sure - the only limit to CLub Class in Germany at the moment is the
> > upper limit of 106 for the index."
>
> > which makes me think that Germany doesn't run any IGC Club Class
> > competitions.
>
> > And then Martin reacted to Andreas by saying "Its the same in the
> > UK...", which gives me the same impression about the UK.
>
> > Three major gliding countries that don't use the IGC Club Class. *It
> > makes me wonder if anybody does.
>
> > -Pat
>
> Just about every country in the World runs Club Class competitions,
> except for the US. It's one of the most popular and highly competitive
> national competition in the UK.
>
> But then the USA insists on using imperial measurements, and even
> their gallons are different to the UK ones. Shows the effects of
> isolationism. Most countries have gone metric, and we have been buying
> motor fuel in litres for years in the UK.
>
> Derek Copeland- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The US tried to go metric in the early '80s.... No one cared.. it
wasn't a big deal...it didn't work. It's not like no one here uses
it.... it's everywhere.
US..isolationist?

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

Wow, I guess I was really unclear in my original post. Sorry. Allow
me to re-phrase.

My understanding is that a "class" is a set of gliders. Classes can
be defined by describing the gliders that are allowed in the class or
by naming the gliders that are allowed in the class. IGC, among
others, defines classes. IGC use the first method for defining five
classes and the second method for defining two classes, one of which
is the Club Class.

My question is:

Are there any countries in the world that run national championships
in the IGC-defined Club Class?

Sorry it wasn't clear before.

-Pat

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:46:06 -0800 (PST), Pat Russell
> wrote:


>My question is:
>
>Are there any countries in the world that run national championships
>in the IGC-defined Club Class?

Yup.
Lots.

[Pete[_6_]]

Pat Russell wrote:
>
> My understanding is that a "class" is a set of gliders. Classes can
> be defined by describing the gliders that are allowed in the class or
> by naming the gliders that are allowed in the class. IGC, among
> others, defines classes. IGC use the first method for defining five
> classes and the second method for defining two classes, one of which
> is the Club Class.
> -Pat

Read sc3 of the FAI sporting code (http://www.fai.org/gliding/sc3).
Where does it "name" club class gliders?

7.7.6 Club Class
The purpose of the Club Class is to preserve the value of older high
performance gliders, to provide inexpensive but high quality
international championships, and to enable pilots who do not have access
to gliders of the highest standard of performance to take part in
contests at the highest levels.

a. ENTRY The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class
competition is that it is within the range of handicap factors agreed
for the competition.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

Pete, thank you for your enlightening point. The gliders named in the
Sporting Code

http://www.fai.org/gliding/sporting_code/sc3a , Appendix 3

define the Club Class for World and Continental Championships, only.

Apparently, according to SC3 7.7.6a, any glider can be considered a
Club Class glider, as long as it is acceptable to the local
sanctioning authority. There is no mandatory relationship between the
sets of gliders that are allowed in any pair of contests. They are
all the Club Class.

Thank you for pointing this out.

The Club Class seems like more of a concept than a class. It sure is
different from the others.

I guess the USA Sports Class is the Club Class, after all.

-Pat

> Read sc3 of the FAI sporting code (http://www.fai.org/gliding/sc3).
> Where does it "name" club class gliders?
>
> 7.7.6 Club Class
> The purpose of the Club Class is to preserve the value of older high
> performance gliders, to provide inexpensive but high quality
> international championships, and to enable pilots who do not have access
> to gliders of the highest standard of performance to take part in
> contests at the highest levels.
>
> a. ENTRY The only limitation on entry of a glider into a Club Class
> competition is that it is within the range of handicap factors agreed
> for the competition.
>

[Jody]

Here in the US, we are slowly inching towards metric....
>
> The US tried to go metric in the early *'80s.... No one cared.. it
> wasn't a big deal...it didn't work. It's not like no one here uses
> it.... it's everywhere.
> *US..isolationist?

[Brad[_2_]]

On Jan 28, 1:22*pm, Jody > wrote:
> Here in the US, we are slowly inching towards metric....


yes, but at a very metered pace...;)

Brad

[JS]

It might not be that way furlong.
Jim

On Jan 28, 1:31*pm, Brad > wrote:
> On Jan 28, 1:22*pm, Jody > wrote:
>
> > Here in the US, we are slowly inching towards metric....
>
> yes, but at a very metered pace...;)
>
> Brad

[silentpilot]

> > Here in the US, we are slowly inching towards metric....
> yes, but at a very metered pace...;)
> Brad

here we have:
flying speed in knots
driving speed kilometers/hours
vertical speed feet/minutes
flying distance in nautical miles
driving distance in kilometers
fuel capacity in liters
fuel consumption gallon per hours

please do not inch towards anything different, even at metered pace!!!
I just got used to the systems and finally they work just fine!!!

[delboy]

On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:

> *US..isolationist?-

In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK.

I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!

Derek Copeland

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:15:00 -0800, delboy wrote:

> Just about every country in the World runs Club Class competitions,
> except for the US. It's one of the most popular and highly competitive
> national competition in the UK.
>
I think he meant running Club Class to the letter of the IGC rules,
including the IGC list of eligible gliders and and using the IGC
handicaps.

We certainly don't do that: the BGA handicaps differ from the IGC ones,
and I don't mean merely that 100 is the BGA baseline compared with 1.00
for the IGC. The list of elegible gliders is a lot smaller too:

Glider BGA IGC

LS-8 100 n/a
ASW-20 98 1.08
LS-7 97 1.07
Pegase 95 1.04
Std Cirrus 90 1.00
ASW-15 89 0.99
H-201 Libelle 89 0.98
Club Libelle 86 0.96
G-102 Astir 85 n/a
SZD Junior 83 n/a
PW-5 81 n/a (same as a Ka-6e)

> Most countries have gone metric, and we have been buying motor fuel in
> litres for years in the UK.
>
What suddenly caused petrol to be sold in litres was Maggie Thatcher
waking up to the approach of the £2.00 gallon. She thought this would be
a political no-no so suddenly we were sold it in litres to disguise the
rising price.

And what a mess the UK made of metrication when they followed Canada,
Australia and NZ down that path. We all watched our predecessors and
avoided their mistakes, but did the UK do that? Nooooo! They refused to
learn from our experience and made a right cock-up of the process, not
only making all the mistakes we'd discovered but inventing a few new ones
as well.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[JS]

Shiver me timbers!
It's hard to fathom. These figures are in a league of their own.
Could liter drinking.
Arrr.
Jim (lad)

[johngalloway[_2_]]

On Jan 29, 12:13*am, Martin Gregorie >
wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:15:00 -0800, delboy wrote:
> > Just about every country in the World runs Club Class competitions,
> > except for the US. It's one of the most popular and highly competitive
> > national competition in the UK.
>
> I think he meant running Club Class to the letter of the IGC rules,
> including the IGC list of eligible gliders and and using the IGC
> handicaps.
>
> We certainly don't do that: the BGA handicaps differ from the IGC ones,
> and I don't mean merely that 100 is the BGA baseline compared with 1.00
> for the IGC. The list of elegible gliders is a lot smaller too:
>
> Glider * * * *BGA * *IGC
>
> LS-8 * * * * *100 * *n/a
> ASW-20 * * * * 98 * *1.08
> LS-7 * * * * * 97 * *1.07
> Pegase * * * * 95 * *1.04
> Std Cirrus * * 90 * *1.00
> ASW-15 * * * * 89 * *0.99
> H-201 Libelle *89 * *0.98
> Club Libelle * 86 * *0.96
> G-102 Astir * *85 * *n/a
> SZD Junior * * 83 * *n/a
> PW-5 * * * * * 81 * *n/a *(same as a Ka-6e)
>
> > Most countries have gone metric, and we have been buying motor fuel in
> > litres for years in the UK.
>
> What suddenly caused petrol to be sold in litres was Maggie Thatcher
> waking up to the approach of the £2.00 gallon. She thought this would be
> a political no-no so suddenly we were sold it in litres to disguise the
> rising price.
>
> And what a mess the UK made of metrication when they followed Canada,
> Australia and NZ down that path. We all watched our predecessors and
> avoided their mistakes, but did the UK do that? Nooooo! They refused to
> learn from our experience and made a right cock-up of the process, not
> only making all the mistakes we'd discovered but inventing a few new ones
> as well. *
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |

The list of glider types elegible for UK club class competitiions is
not more restricted restricted than the IGC list - in theory it is the
reverse as the UK definition includes all IGC eligible gliders as well
as all gliders with a UK handicap of 98 or less. The relevant
paragraph in the 2009 competition handbook reads:

"10.2. Club Class. Water ballast must not be carried, scores are
handicapped, and gliders listed in Appendix 1 with a Speed Index not
exceeding 98 before additional performance enhancement handicap
increments, are eligible to enter. In addition, all gliders listed on
the current IGC Club Class handicap list are eligible. All gliders
will fly at their allotted BGA Speed Index."

John Galloway

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 03:37:19 -0800, johngalloway wrote:

> The list of glider types elegible for UK club class competitiions is not
> more restricted restricted than the IGC list - in theory it is the
> reverse as the UK definition includes all IGC eligible gliders as well
> as all gliders with a UK handicap of 98 or less.
>
Apologies for a bit of shocking writing - that was what I meant to write
but not what I actually wrote. I should get to bed sooner.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[kirk.stant]

On Jan 28, 5:28*pm, delboy > wrote:
> On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:
>
> > *US..isolationist?-
>
> In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
> things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
> Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK.
>
> I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!
>
> Derek Copeland

Since holding a passport is not a requirement to be a US Citizen, that
really doesn't mean much!

Kirk

[delboy]

On 29 Jan, 15:47, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> On Jan 28, 5:28*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:
>
> > > *US..isolationist?-
>
> > In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
> > things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
> > Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK.
>
> > I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!
>
> > Derek Copeland
>
> Since holding a passport is not a requirement to be a US Citizen, that
> really doesn't mean much!
>
> Kirk

It does if they ever want to see what the rest of the World is like!

Derek Copeland

[Tim Taylor]

On Jan 29, 12:17*pm, delboy > wrote:
> On 29 Jan, 15:47, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 28, 5:28*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:
>
> > > > *US..isolationist?-
>
> > > In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
> > > things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
> > > Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK..
>
> > > I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!
>
> > > Derek Copeland
>
> > Since holding a passport is not a requirement to be a US Citizen, that
> > really doesn't mean much!
>
> > Kirk
>
> It does if they ever want to see what the rest of the World is like!
>
> Derek Copeland

Derek,

Until last year US citizens did not need a passport to travel to
Canada and Mexico so they could travel the equivalent of Portugal to
Moscow and from Norway to South Africa without a passport.

You will find most US pilots have traveled extensively so trying to
make your point about how provincial the US is showing how ignorant
you are.

[delboy]

On 29 Jan, 20:43, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Jan 29, 12:17*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 29 Jan, 15:47, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 28, 5:28*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > > On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:
>
> > > > > *US..isolationist?-
>
> > > > In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
> > > > things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
> > > > Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK.
>
> > > > I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!
>
> > > > Derek Copeland
>
> > > Since holding a passport is not a requirement to be a US Citizen, that
> > > really doesn't mean much!
>
> > > Kirk
>
> > It does if they ever want to see what the rest of the World is like!
>
> > Derek Copeland
>
> Derek,
>
> Until last year US citizens did not need a passport to travel to
> Canada and Mexico so they could travel the equivalent of Portugal to
> Moscow and from Norway to South Africa without a passport.
>
> You will find most US pilots have traveled extensively so trying to
> make your point about how provincial the US is showing how ignorant
> you are.
>
I think the fact that 50.001% of the US population could have voted
for that dangerous idiot George 'Dubya' Bush proves how ignorant they
are! And it would seem that 75% of US citizens have never left the
North American continent from what you say. Glider pilots may be a bit
more adventurous.

Apart from entering and leaving the UK and Ireland, most EC Citizens
can travel freely thoughout Europe. I haven't been stopped at a
continental border for years.

Derek Copeland

[Morgans[_2_]]

"delboy" > wrote

I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!

Poor choice to measure with. In a country as large as the USA, you can
travel within it for a lifetime and never see it all.
--
Jim in NC

[Tony V]

> ......
> Apart from entering and leaving the UK and Ireland, most EC Citizens
> can travel freely thoughout Europe. I haven't been stopped at a
> continental border for years.
>
> Derek Copeland


Food Fight!!!! :-)

Tony
(Who is old enough to remember going through customs going from Holland
to Belgium - and having a Dutch passport actually helped)

[glider12321]

On Jan 29, 2:00*pm, delboy > wrote:
> On 29 Jan, 20:43, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 29, 12:17*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > On 29 Jan, 15:47, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 28, 5:28*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > > > On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:
>
> > > > > > *US..isolationist?-
>
> > > > > In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
> > > > > things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
> > > > > Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK.
>
> > > > > I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!
>
> > > > > Derek Copeland
>
> > > > Since holding a passport is not a requirement to be a US Citizen, that
> > > > really doesn't mean much!
>
> > > > Kirk
>
> > > It does if they ever want to see what the rest of the World is like!
>
> > > Derek Copeland
>
> > Derek,
>
> > Until last year US citizens did not need a passport to travel to
> > Canada and Mexico so they could travel the equivalent of Portugal to
> > Moscow and from Norway to South Africa without a passport.
>
> > You will find most US pilots have traveled extensively so trying to
> > make your point about how provincial the US is showing how ignorant
> > you are.
>
> I think the fact that 50.001% of the US population could have voted
> for that dangerous idiot George 'Dubya' Bush proves how ignorant they
> are! *And it would seem that 75% of US citizens have never left the
> North American continent from what you say. Glider pilots may be a bit
> more adventurous.
>
> Apart from entering and leaving the UK and Ireland, most EC Citizens
> can travel freely thoughout Europe. I haven't been stopped at a
> continental border for years.
>
> Derek Copeland- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've travelled throughout Europe and Asia, South America etc and loved
every minute of it. People are basically the same everywhere. But one
thing that I always noticed when travelling and trying to get some
idea of the "locals" and their lives is that 90% of them have never
been to the US and most have never been more than 1000km from home in
their entire lives. Provincial is as provincial does, Derek. It’s
universal. Maybe you should spend a year travelling the USA and see
for yourself. We would love to show you around!

[delboy]

On 30 Jan, 01:24, glider12321 > wrote:
> On Jan 29, 2:00*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 29 Jan, 20:43, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 29, 12:17*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > > On 29 Jan, 15:47, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 28, 5:28*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > *US..isolationist?-
>
> > > > > > In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
> > > > > > things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
> > > > > > Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK.
>
> > > > > > I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!
>
> > > > > > Derek Copeland
>
> > > > > Since holding a passport is not a requirement to be a US Citizen, that
> > > > > really doesn't mean much!
>
> > > > > Kirk
>
> > > > It does if they ever want to see what the rest of the World is like!
>
> > > > Derek Copeland
>
> > > Derek,
>
> > > Until last year US citizens did not need a passport to travel to
> > > Canada and Mexico so they could travel the equivalent of Portugal to
> > > Moscow and from Norway to South Africa without a passport.
>
> > > You will find most US pilots have traveled extensively so trying to
> > > make your point about how provincial the US is showing how ignorant
> > > you are.
>
> > I think the fact that 50.001% of the US population could have voted
> > for that dangerous idiot George 'Dubya' Bush proves how ignorant they
> > are! *And it would seem that 75% of US citizens have never left the
> > North American continent from what you say. Glider pilots may be a bit
> > more adventurous.
>
> > Apart from entering and leaving the UK and Ireland, most EC Citizens
> > can travel freely thoughout Europe. I haven't been stopped at a
> > continental border for years.
>
> > Derek Copeland- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I've travelled throughout Europe and Asia, South America etc and loved
> every minute of it. People are basically the same everywhere. But one
> thing that I always noticed when travelling and trying to get some
> idea of the "locals" and their lives is that 90% of them have never
> been to the US and most have never been more than 1000km from home in
> their entire lives. Provincial is as provincial does, Derek. It’s
> universal. Maybe you should spend a year travelling the USA and see
> for yourself. We would love to show you around!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'd love to, but I would be too frightened of getting sick or injured
in a country that has no European type health care provision. I was
amazed when I read about all the opposition to President Obama's
health care reforms, especially from the Republicans.

Please don't believe all the media scare stories about the UK NHS that
the Republicans like to quote. I have had 3 stays in hospital without
catching anything I didn't have already, and I had the best of
treatment. It also only costs about a third per capita than the US
insurance based (if you can afford it) system, which mainly seems to
support the Insurance companies and lawyers.

Derek Copeland

[Bob]

On Jan 30, 6:52*am, delboy > wrote:
> On 30 Jan, 01:24, glider12321 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 29, 2:00*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > On 29 Jan, 20:43, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 29, 12:17*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > > > On 29 Jan, 15:47, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jan 28, 5:28*pm, delboy > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > *US..isolationist?-
>
> > > > > > > In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
> > > > > > > things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
> > > > > > > Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK.
>
> > > > > > > I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!
>
> > > > > > > Derek Copeland
>
> > > > > > Since holding a passport is not a requirement to be a US Citizen, that
> > > > > > really doesn't mean much!
>
> > > > > > Kirk
>
> > > > > It does if they ever want to see what the rest of the World is like!
>
> > > > > Derek Copeland
>
> > > > Derek,
>
> > > > Until last year US citizens did not need a passport to travel to
> > > > Canada and Mexico so they could travel the equivalent of Portugal to
> > > > Moscow and from Norway to South Africa without a passport.
>
> > > > You will find most US pilots have traveled extensively so trying to
> > > > make your point about how provincial the US is showing how ignorant
> > > > you are.
>
> > > I think the fact that 50.001% of the US population could have voted
> > > for that dangerous idiot George 'Dubya' Bush proves how ignorant they
> > > are! *And it would seem that 75% of US citizens have never left the
> > > North American continent from what you say. Glider pilots may be a bit
> > > more adventurous.
>
> > > Apart from entering and leaving the UK and Ireland, most EC Citizens
> > > can travel freely thoughout Europe. I haven't been stopped at a
> > > continental border for years.
>
> > > Derek Copeland- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I've travelled throughout Europe and Asia, South America etc and loved
> > every minute of it. People are basically the same everywhere. But one
> > thing that I always noticed when travelling and trying to get some
> > idea of the "locals" and their lives is that 90% of them have never
> > been to the US and most have never been more than 1000km from home in
> > their entire lives. Provincial is as provincial does, Derek. It’s
> > universal. Maybe you should spend a year travelling the USA and see
> > for yourself. We would love to show you around!- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I'd love to, but I would be too frightened of getting sick or injured
> in a country that has no European type health care provision. I was
> amazed when I read about all the opposition to President Obama's
> health care reforms, especially from the Republicans.
>
> Please don't believe all the media scare stories about the UK NHS that
> the Republicans like to quote. I have had 3 stays in hospital without
> catching anything I didn't have already, and I had the best of
> treatment. It also only costs about a third per capita than the US
> insurance based (if you can afford it) system, which mainly seems to
> support the Insurance companies and lawyers.
>
> Derek Copeland- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Nad now back to our regular programming...Please

[JS]

> And now back to our regular programming...Please

Club class limericks?

There once was a pilot named Taylor
Who's Cirrus was stuck in the trailer
He gave it a tug
It fell with a thud
And his day at the race was a failure

[T8]

On Jan 31, 2:23*am, JS > wrote:
> > And now back to our regular programming...Please
>
> Club class limericks?
>
> There once was a pilot named Taylor
> Who's Cirrus was stuck in the trailer
> He gave it a tug
> It fell with a thud
> And his day at the race was a failure

Outstanding!

-T8

[Eric Greenwell]

delboy wrote:
> On 28 Jan, 18:40, glider12321 > wrote:
>
>
>> US..isolationist?-
>>
>
> In general yes, except when we would prefer that they stay out of
> things, e.g. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and taking over
> Manchester United Football (Soccer) and Cadbury's chocolate in the UK.
>
> I understand that only about 25% of US Citizens even hold passports!
>
> Derek Copeland
In the good old days, we could drive 5000 miles to get from one state
(Florida) to another (Alaska) without needing one, so there wasn't much
point to it. That's changing now, so the percentage will go up. The EU
has gone the other way, eh?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Andy[_10_]]

On Jan 28, 12:36*pm, Pat Russell > wrote:
> Pete, thank you for your enlightening point. *The gliders named in the
> Sporting Code
>
> http://www.fai.org/gliding/sporting_code/sc3a, Appendix 3
>
> define the Club Class for World and Continental Championships, only.
>
> Apparently, according to SC3 7.7.6a, any glider can be considered a
> Club Class glider, as long as it is acceptable to the local
> sanctioning authority. *There is no mandatory relationship between the
> sets of gliders that are allowed in any pair of contests. *They are
> all the Club Class.
>
> Thank you for pointing this out.
>
> The Club Class seems like more of a concept than a class. *It sure is
> different from the others.
>
> I guess the USA Sports Class is the Club Class, after all.
>
> -Pat


Interesting point - I did not know that there were different
definitions of Club Class by different sanctioning authorities. The
narrower the range of handicaps you allow the smaller the field you
will get and the less competition you will get as fewer competitors
can qualify. The Sports Class in the US, by that accounting, is the
most democratic of the "Club Class" implementations because there is
no handicap limit. No one gets excluded.

The challenge in the US is the relatively smaller number of Club Class
ships (by the IGC definition) in clubs or privately owned, compared to
the relatively large number of Sports Class (but not Club Class)
entries at competitions. Splitting the classes at the regional level
would in many cases make for too few ships to have a contest on one
class or the other or both. It may make sense to have a Club Class
Nationals, but here again it appears that the Club Class in Europe is
a path for young, up-and-coming racing pilots to gain experience. The
dearth of Club Class ships in US clubs makes this far less the case
over here.

9B

[MickiMinner]

>
> Three major gliding countries that don't use the IGC Club Class. *It
> makes me wonder if anybody does.
>
> -Pat

Speaking of which. I was asked if I was going to run a "club" class
at the Memphis Region 10 North in 2010. I reviewed the ships already
signed up (thanks to EY for bringing the question to my mind). Seems
that I already have enough to run a valid club class. Are there any
other "club class" ships that would like to join us in Memphis? Are
there any pilots that thought about competing in other ships, that
would fly with us IF I added a club class, and break out your older
club class ships?

I am taking a poll, and willing to add it. I was asked the same
question about Region 9 last year, but I didn't have enough response
from club class ships. I would love to be able to have a central
region club class to go along with the one in the east coast region.

Micki Minner at msn.com

[mattm[_2_]]

On Feb 1, 2:05*am, Andy > wrote:
> On Jan 28, 12:36*pm, Pat Russell > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Pete, thank you for your enlightening point. *The gliders named in the
> > Sporting Code
>
> >http://www.fai.org/gliding/sporting_code/sc3a, Appendix 3
>
> > define the Club Class for World and Continental Championships, only.
>
> > Apparently, according to SC3 7.7.6a, any glider can be considered a
> > Club Class glider, as long as it is acceptable to the local
> > sanctioning authority. *There is no mandatory relationship between the
> > sets of gliders that are allowed in any pair of contests. *They are
> > all the Club Class.
>
> > Thank you for pointing this out.
>
> > The Club Class seems like more of a concept than a class. *It sure is
> > different from the others.
>
> > I guess the USA Sports Class is the Club Class, after all.
>
> > -Pat
>
> Interesting point - I did not know that there were different
> definitions of Club Class by different sanctioning authorities. The
> narrower the range of handicaps you allow the smaller the field you
> will get and the less competition you will get as fewer competitors
> can qualify. The Sports Class in the US, by that accounting, is the
> most democratic of the "Club Class" implementations because there is
> no handicap limit. No one gets excluded.
>
> The challenge in the US is the relatively smaller number of Club Class
> ships (by the IGC definition) in clubs or privately owned, compared to
> the relatively large number of Sports Class (but not Club Class)
> entries at competitions. Splitting the classes at the regional level
> would in many cases make for too few ships to have a contest on one
> class or the other or both. It may make sense to have a Club Class
> Nationals, but here again it appears that the Club Class in Europe is
> a path for young, up-and-coming racing pilots to gain experience. The
> dearth of Club Class ships in US clubs makes this far less the case
> over here.
>
> 9B

I think the difference is in the ownership of planes in the US vs
other countries.
In the US planes are typically owned by single persons. Clubs own a
Schweitzer 1-26 or 1-34, or perhaps an L33. (This is changing
gradually.)
US competition pilots almost always bring their own plane.
In other countries planes that are competitive in the FAI classes are
typically owned by syndicates of several people. Clubs own planes
that
are a generation or two out of date. Competition pilots bring the
plane
owned by their syndicate or club.

As far as the number of club class planes in the US, there are hordes
of
them out there. All those LS-4s, ASW-24s, and ASW-20s that dominated
the competition scene here 15-20 years ago are (mostly) still around
and flying. Those are all club class planes. Many of those Libelles,
Cirruses,
and LS-1s that dominated the competition scene 15-20 years before that
are still around and flying, and are club class planes, too. The only
planes
that are excluded from club class are the newer planes that currently
dominate the FAI classes. I do understand that people like to fly
those
in sports class for a variety of reasons -- I told one guy at Perry a
couple
of years ago to switch from 15M to Sports because he'd never flown
in a contest or flown with ballast. Also, it really makes a lot of
sense
to go fly the sports national if your FAI national is a continent away
(unless you're in the running for making the international team).

On the other hand we had a big turnout at Cordele last year for club
class.
I think it has a place as a version of sports class. If all the
planes that
show up for a regional sports class qualify, go ahead and actually run
it as a club class and call the occasional AST. Also, allow pilots
to
repeat on the club class international team. It's not just a "entry/
exit"
class, it's a serious competition class. Keep allowing the experiment
at the regional level and see where it takes us.

-- Matt

[JS]

I ran the grid at the Australian Club and Sports Class Nationals at
Lake Keepit in November.
Some great publicity: Third generation pilot Adam Woolley (aka
Woolley Pup Pup, flying his LS-1F) posted many videos from the Club
Class Nationals on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/getsoaring
Results are on the GFA website, Club:
http://2009.gfa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=776&Itemid=27
Sports:
http://2009.gfa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=777&Itemid=27
There were 58 gliders registered, 30 in Club Class. Having both
classes brings enough people to have a good contest, as it allows
anyone to participate. For example, Sports was won by David Jansen in
his AS-G29E. Traveling the most distance, Andrew Greig came from
Western Australia and rented the Keepit club's LS-7 and the club's car
to tow with. Many pilots brought their own club's equipment. Peter
Trotter won Club Class in his AS-W20, and Paul Mander took second in a
Standard Libelle! Paul is now gunning for first, with an SZD55
recently plucked from the US register.
Perhaps the active Australian "Joey" (Junior. A joey is a young
kangaroo) movement helps fuel the Club Class, as juniors are
encouraged to compete and cannot afford the latest racing machines. Is
there no Junior Nationals in the USA? Food for thought.
It seems difficult to rent a decent single seat glider in the USA,
even traditional Club Class like Cirrus, LS-1, Hornet. This coupled
with the vast distances traveled makes having any sort of contest
difficult these days, as we all know. Narrowing down the field doesn't
help, so running Club and Sports simultaneously with only Club Class
qualifying a pilot for team selection works. This is probably the only
way the World Class could have had a US Nationals, alongside other
classes.
Jim

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

> Interesting point - I did not know that there were different
> definitions of Club Class by different sanctioning authorities. The
> narrower the range of handicaps you allow the smaller the field you
> will get and the less competition you will get as fewer competitors
> can qualify. The Sports Class in the US, by that accounting, is the
> most democratic of the "Club Class" implementations because there is
> no handicap limit. No one gets excluded.
>
> The challenge in the US is the relatively smaller number of Club Class
> ships (by the IGC definition) in clubs or privately owned, compared to
> the relatively large number of Sports Class (but not Club Class)
> entries at competitions. Splitting the classes at the regional level
> would in many cases make for too few ships to have a contest on one
> class or the other or both. It may make sense to have a Club Class
> Nationals, but here again it appears that the Club Class in Europe is
> a path for young, up-and-coming racing pilots to gain experience. The
> dearth of Club Class ships in US clubs makes this far less the case
> over here.
>
> 9B

Andy, I agree with all your points. I wonder if you agree with the
following:

1. The USA Sports Class should carry on, unchanged.
2. The USA Club Class experiment should end.
3. There should be a new national contest in the USA, the "Club Class
Team Trials," to which all IGC-listed gliders are invited (and other
gliders as guests). The results of this contest would be used to
select the US Team members.

-Pat

[Tim[_2_]]

<SNIP>>
> Andy, I agree with all your points. *I wonder if you agree with the
> following:
>
> 1. *The USA Sports Class should carry on, unchanged.
> 2. *The USA Club Class experiment should end.
> 3. *There should be a new national contest in the USA, the "Club Class
> Team Trials," to which all IGC-listed gliders are invited (and other
> gliders as guests). *The results of this contest would be used to
> select the US Team members.
>
> -Pat-

Pat -

End the Club Class Experiment? The experiment has barely even gotten
started with one highly successful regional and a repeat of that same
regional this year.

While I clearly have a stake in this topic (I own and SZD-55 - IGC AND
US Club Class Eligible, and I woudl love it if my ship had a real
racing home), what has offering the possibility of Club Class
Regionals/Nationals done to your contest flying to have you outright
oppose the idea - which works so well around the world?

I do agree with you that a much more elegant solution to team
selection would be a stand alone, Club Class (US Definition) Team
Selection event. But then why not just call that event US Club Class
Nationals. This would be no different than World Class Nationals or
Open Class Nationals that have no or very few regional racing
opportunities.

And the logjam we need to break is that yes, in the US most Club Class
ships are owned by private individuals. This does not mean there
aren't any, there are tons of them. We just need to figure out a way
to have them flown or share them with those who would like to in
contests more. You can not tell me that young pilots/poorer pilots can
not be found who want to get into racing in a more fair class than
Sports Class.

Club Class - in European/Australian/South African/Whatever form - is
very fun to fly. If you've got an older ship, dust it off and come
join a club class race and measure yourself against your peers flying
today AND against the great flights in the older ships done by the
likes of Ray Gimmey, Karl Streideck, etc. You'd be surprised jsut waht
is left inthese older and outclassed ships.

EY

[Andy[_10_]]

On Feb 1, 6:06*pm, Tim > wrote:
> <SNIP>>
>
> > Andy, I agree with all your points. *I wonder if you agree with the
> > following:
>
> > 1. *The USA Sports Class should carry on, unchanged.
> > 2. *The USA Club Class experiment should end.
> > 3. *There should be a new national contest in the USA, the "Club Class
> > Team Trials," to which all IGC-listed gliders are invited (and other
> > gliders as guests). *The results of this contest would be used to
> > select the US Team members.
>
> > -Pat-
>
> Pat -
>
> End the Club Class Experiment? The experiment has barely even gotten
> started with one highly successful regional and a repeat of that same
> regional this year.
>
> While I clearly have a stake in this topic (I own and SZD-55 - IGC AND
> US Club Class Eligible, and I woudl love it if my ship had a real
> racing home), what has offering the possibility of Club Class
> Regionals/Nationals done to your contest flying to have you outright
> oppose the idea - which works so well around the world?
>
> I do agree with you that a much more elegant solution to team
> selection would be a stand alone, Club Class (US Definition) Team
> Selection event. But then why not just call that event US Club Class
> Nationals. This would be no different than World Class Nationals or
> Open Class Nationals that have no or very few regional racing
> opportunities.
>
> And the logjam we need to break is that yes, in the US most Club Class
> ships are owned by private individuals. This does not mean there
> aren't any, there are tons of them. We just need to figure out a way
> to have them flown or share them with those who would like to in
> contests more. You can not tell me that young pilots/poorer pilots can
> not be found who want to get into racing in a more fair class than
> Sports Class.
>
> Club Class - in European/Australian/South African/Whatever form - is
> very fun to fly. If you've got an older ship, dust it off and come
> join a club class race and measure yourself against your peers flying
> today AND against the great flights in the older ships done by the
> likes of Ray Gimmey, Karl Streideck, etc. You'd be surprised jsut waht
> is left inthese older and outclassed ships.
>
> EY

My concern is simple - fragmentation of classes leads to less
intensity of competition in each class and ultimately less enjoyment
for pilots who really want to test their skills against the best. If
the goal is to give out as many medallions as possible, we should
continue to divide classes.

I don't believe that having a Club Class will bring into the sport
large numbers of new racing pilots who would not otherwise fly Sports
Class and I think it does at the margin present the potential for
pilots wanting to fly Sports who don't have Club Class equipment to be
left in the lurch.

A Club Class Nationals might be a good answer - so long as we find
that enough top 50 pilots show up.

9B

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

The USA Club Class experiment should end because the results are in.
The result is that USA needs to run the Club Class for the sole
purpose of selecting the team. All other needs are met by the Sports
Class.

Proposal follows.

The team should be taken from a Club Class ranking list. Pilots earn
ranking points at both the national and regional levels. At the
regional level, ranking points can be earned in all the other class
contests. At the national level, there is a contest to which all IGC-
list gliders are invited (others can be guests).

At the national contest, the MAT is not used, and scores are
calculated according to Annex A.

This proposal adds a national championship (which is better called
"Team Trials" - it doesn't' have to be large) and it defragments and
supports regional contests. It uses a sophisticated ranking list
system, which is the wave of the future for team selection. It
selects the best possible team and sets an example for the other
classes.

The current USA Club Class is a hybrid. It doesn't serve either the
"all-inclusive" purpose or the "valid team prep" purpose. It is also
politically divisive.

It is time to admit to ourselves that the Club Class is for hardcore
racers.

[Tim[_2_]]

Finally, something I can wholeheartedly agree - the Club Class IS
designed for hardcore racers. And that's a problem? However, it has a
twist that no other class offers: Affordability. You can be a hardcore
racer and only spend about$20k (Std Libelle) to maybe $40k (Discus)
and have a class you can call your own. Yeah, that's not that
affordable some may say, but it is quite affordable in relation to a
now generation ship.

It is about inclusion in racing and giving everyone who is IN FACT a
real competitor or aspires to be an opportunity to shine. Is this
opposition a "not invented here" syndrome that US racing seems to have
so deeply ingrained? I do not know for sure.

If you can contenance giving World Class their class, Open Class their
class, and heck even Std Class lately, despite their poor numbers,
then why the h--l not give the US a Club Class and see what actually
happens.

If its a dud, then go back to sports-only for everyone not able to
afford the latest generation ships. But what are we going to lose
keeping the experiment going and at least trying to implement it at
the National Level (scored within a Sports Class Nationals). Not to be
harsh on the World Class, but if you are crowning a National Champion
from maybe 4-5 truly competitive pilots per year, you are telling me
that a US Club Class Nationals can not draw more pilots (hardcore or
not) than the above classes? Come on and be realistic - there are100's
to 1,000's of Club Class gliders here in the US!

I do not know how many people we may/will incentivize to get racing
"Club Class" ships who are not already racing, but for an aspiring
racer, without a daddy or an "angel" willing to loan/give them a new
V2 or D2 or ASG-29 or Concordia, this is a class that they can have.

Just look at the example of Kathy Fosha (Libelle) who appears to have
bought into hardcore racing, but at a level she can afford - I assume.
Now with a Club Class, Kathy and others could have a class free of the
new ships in which she can be a hardcore racer and measure herself in
much tighter competition with her peers. You could just as easily
include other names, including my own, who are in the same situation.

Is this opposition to Club Class somehow a reaction by more well-off
owners with new ships seeing a threat to their ability to fly in a
"soft" Sports Class Nationals when it is in their neck of the woods?
It sure seems like it to me.

Get off your high horses and go fly the classes for which your new
ships were designed. You can do that. We, in the Club Class ships can
not so easily bring our Std Libelle's to Standard Nationals and have
any expectation of a fair opportunity to race and win. It is equally
hard to honestly justify making hardcore Club Class aspirants fly in a
"hard" sports class against primarily new ships and offer them an
honest chance to place well if you are bringing above average or
higher skills tot he table. Sometimes it is the aircraft that is
holding you back, especially in handicapped contest that do not take
into account lift strength, winds, etc.

As for me in my SZD-55, I relish a chance to dial it up with Karl
Streideck in a Standard Cirrus, or Hank Nixon in an ASW-19, Ray Gimmey
in a Libelle, or Rick Walters in a ASW-24 at a nationals type contest
where the range of handicap would be restricted and you could TRULY
see how you stand. Oh yeah, and get to fly AST's against them and have
a real RACE! And don't tell me those type of guys would not "slum" it
and race a serious, hardcore Club Class - Hank and Rick have already
done it in Sports Nats in 2008 and 2009. There are others who have
done so as well.

I am convinced that if you give hardcore and aspiring hardcore racers
a class to race in, and they will surprise you with what they will do
to get in a ship that fits their budget and style, and race. It should
be about providing the most, hardcore, high quality racing
opportunities each year at the Nationals-level. So let's get racing in
Club Class America!

EY

P.S. - I do not think we necessarily have to mandate a regional system
of club class events that may or may not fragment the existing sports
class regional system. But rather make that an option just as it
remains a very rarely used option for the World and Open Classes at
regional contests. However, defintiely offer the opportunity to race a
Club Class at the Nationals-level (Scored Within Sports Nationals or
Stand Alone ... I do not care) A.S.A.P.

6:20*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> The USA Club Class experiment should end because the results are in.
> The result is that USA needs to run the Club Class for the sole
> purpose of selecting the team. *All other needs are met by the Sports
> Class.
>
> Proposal follows.
>
> The team should be taken from a Club Class ranking list. *Pilots earn
> ranking points at both the national and regional levels. *At the
> regional level, ranking points can be earned in all the other class
> contests. *At the national level, there is a contest to which all IGC-
> list gliders are invited (others can be guests).
>
> At the national contest, the MAT is not used, and scores are
> calculated according to Annex A.
>
> This proposal adds a national championship (which is better called
> "Team Trials" - it doesn't' have to be large) and it defragments and
> supports regional contests. *It uses a sophisticated ranking list
> system, which is the wave of the future for team selection. *It
> selects the best possible team and sets an example for the other
> classes.
>
> The current USA Club Class is a hybrid. *It doesn't serve either the
> "all-inclusive" purpose or the "valid team prep" purpose. *It is also
> politically divisive.
>
> It is time to admit to ourselves that the Club Class is for hardcore
> racers.

[rlovinggood]

Does anyone use Club Class?

Yes! I "use" Club Class. I use it by flying a club class glider. I
have flown in a handful of Sports Class races and I flew in the
inagural Club Class at Cordele, Georgia, USA in 2009.

Should the "experiment" in Club Class in USA end? Yes! Time to move
forward with "Normal" club class events. Why experiment?

As Tim (Echo Yankee) has said, Club Class participants want to fly
among a smaller group of similar gliders. I don't want to fly against
the Duo Discii, the DG-1000, the Ventii, the ASW-27, the ASG-29, etc,
etc. There's really no way for me to keep up and try and fly and
learn something from the better pilot flying one of these. Is there a
chance for me to keep up and learn something from the better pilot
flying a Club Class ship? Yes. There is a chance. Slim, but at
least the chance is there.

Tasking for Sports can be a real joke with turn radii as large as 30
miles. 60 miles across. You can't see 60 miles here in the eastern
part of USA. But you could be on the "same" task, going to the "same"
turnpoint but be 60 miles apart. What good is that when pilots are
competing against each other? Are you flying in the same type of
airmass when separated that far apart? Not necessarily. Let's fly to
the same point, turn and keep going.

Last summer at Cordele, John Cochrane did explain that a CD can use
the MAT in a Sports Class to simulate an Assigned task. If the MAT is
called right, by golly, it would seem like an AST. And I would much
rather fly an AST or a properly called MAT than a turn area task with
20 or 30 mile radii on the turnpoints.

Am I a "hard core" racer? No. I just enjoy the chance to fly and fly
and fly. Yes, Sports Class is fun, but Club Class is more fun because
the competition is closer. I'm not flying Club Class to try and earn
a spot on the National Team to go fly in the Worlds. I'm just out to
have some fun.

Should Club Class negate the need for Sports Class? NO! But Sport
Class shouldn't negate the need for Club Class.

So why are some folks seemingly afraid of Club Class? Why not promote
it and allow it to grow? I'm going to keep needling at my friends
with their Standard Cirruses and LS3's and Libelles and ASW-24's and
see if I can coax them into coming to Cordele where, I hope, they will
host another Club Class.

(Ulterior motive to having lots of friends at the contest: So they
can take turns coming to get me on my landouts...)

Thanks,
Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

On Feb 2, 11:37*am, Tim > wrote:
> ...
> But what are we going to lose
> keeping the experiment going and at least trying to implement it at
> the National Level...

Tim, wake up!

The USA Sports Class is a mongrel, and SSA has thrown you a bone.
Reject it. Demand a playing field in which you and your mates can
practice for the REAL Club Class.

Growl!

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

And I meant to say the "USA Club Class" in the previous post, of
course.

[HL Falbaum[_2_]]

"rlovinggood" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone use Club Class?
>
> Yes! I "use" Club Class. I use it by flying a club class glider. I
> have flown in a handful of Sports Class races and I flew in the
> inagural Club Class at Cordele, Georgia, USA in 2009.
>
> Should the "experiment" in Club Class in USA end? Yes! Time to move
> forward with "Normal" club class events. Why experiment?
>
> As Tim (Echo Yankee) has said, Club Class participants want to fly
> among a smaller group of similar gliders. I don't want to fly against
> the Duo Discii, the DG-1000, the Ventii, the ASW-27, the ASG-29, etc,
> etc. There's really no way for me to keep up and try and fly and
> learn something from the better pilot flying one of these. Is there a
> chance for me to keep up and learn something from the better pilot
> flying a Club Class ship? Yes. There is a chance. Slim, but at
> least the chance is there.
>
> Tasking for Sports can be a real joke with turn radii as large as 30
> miles. 60 miles across. You can't see 60 miles here in the eastern
> part of USA. But you could be on the "same" task, going to the "same"
> turnpoint but be 60 miles apart. What good is that when pilots are
> competing against each other? Are you flying in the same type of
> airmass when separated that far apart? Not necessarily. Let's fly to
> the same point, turn and keep going.
>
> Last summer at Cordele, John Cochrane did explain that a CD can use
> the MAT in a Sports Class to simulate an Assigned task. If the MAT is
> called right, by golly, it would seem like an AST. And I would much
> rather fly an AST or a properly called MAT than a turn area task with
> 20 or 30 mile radii on the turnpoints.
>
> Am I a "hard core" racer? No. I just enjoy the chance to fly and fly
> and fly. Yes, Sports Class is fun, but Club Class is more fun because
> the competition is closer. I'm not flying Club Class to try and earn
> a spot on the National Team to go fly in the Worlds. I'm just out to
> have some fun.
>
> Should Club Class negate the need for Sports Class? NO! But Sport
> Class shouldn't negate the need for Club Class.
>
> So why are some folks seemingly afraid of Club Class? Why not promote
> it and allow it to grow? I'm going to keep needling at my friends
> with their Standard Cirruses and LS3's and Libelles and ASW-24's and
> see if I can coax them into coming to Cordele where, I hope, they will
> host another Club Class.
>
> (Ulterior motive to having lots of friends at the contest: So they
> can take turns coming to get me on my landouts...)
>
> Thanks,
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

Cordele is hosting a Club Class at Cordele in 2010. We have moved the date
to a bit later to try to avoid the bad effects of El Nino (and a few other
reasons).

We have Sports Class too and we will blend the Club Class into the Sports
Class if we must, but so far, it looks good to go.

Come sign up-We have the "A" for the staff.-we're planning a good time for
all who come.

Hartley Falbaum
Competition Manager
Region V South, Cordele, GA

[[email protected]]

On Feb 2, 3:29*pm, Pat Russell > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 11:37*am, Tim > wrote:
>
> > ...
> > *But what are we going to lose
> > keeping the experiment going and at least trying to implement it at
> > the National Level...
>
> Tim, wake up!
>
> The USA Sports Class is a mongrel, and SSA has thrown you a bone.
> Reject it. *Demand a playing field in which you and your mates can
> practice for the REAL Club Class.
>
> Growl!

Just curious as I lurk and listen.
What type/class glider do you fly and where do you compete?
UH

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

> Just curious as I lurk and listen.
> What type/class glider do you fly and where do you compete?
> UH

I don't fly as P1 at all any more, regrettably. In the 70s it was
Open and Standard class comps in Maryland and Vermont. Started at
Bicester, UK.

So, UH, what is your opinion of the way the International Club Class
is implemented in USA?

-Pat

[[email protected]]

On Feb 3, 8:55*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> > Just curious as I lurk and listen.
> > What type/class glider do you fly and where do you compete?
> > UH
>
> I don't fly as P1 at all any more, regrettably. *In the 70s it was
> Open and Standard class comps in Maryland and Vermont. *Started at
> Bicester, UK.
>
> So, UH, what is your opinion of the way the International Club Class
> is implemented in USA?
>
> -Pat

Club Class has potential to be quite a good class in the US. The
current rules permit any organizer who chooses to run the class in
regionals. One group did it with good results last year. I understand
there will be more events this year. The gliders permitted are pretty
nuch the same as the international group with the exception that, in
the US, some additional gliders within the handicap range which pretty
much exist in the US only, are allowed to participate.
I'm hopeful that participation will grow nationally to the point where
it can become a national championship class. Some serious enthusiasts
will argue that it should be immediate. Others say take it a bit
slower. The competition pilot poll supports the latter. It will be
monitored and polled again this year.
I've flown in the Club Worlds twice, built a ship specifically for the
class last year, so you could say I do support the concept.
UH

[Andy[_10_]]

On Feb 2, 1:53*pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> "rlovinggood" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Does anyone use Club Class?
>
> > Yes! *I "use" Club Class. *I use it by flying a club class glider. *I
> > have flown in a handful of Sports Class races and I flew in the
> > inagural Club Class at Cordele, Georgia, USA in 2009.
>
> > Should the "experiment" in Club Class in USA end? *Yes! *Time to move
> > forward with "Normal" club class events. *Why experiment?
>
> > As Tim (Echo Yankee) has said, Club Class participants want to fly
> > among a smaller group of similar gliders. *I don't want to fly against
> > the Duo Discii, the DG-1000, the Ventii, the ASW-27, the ASG-29, etc,
> > etc. *There's really no way for me to keep up and try and fly and
> > learn something from the better pilot flying one of these. *Is there a
> > chance for me to keep up and learn something from the better pilot
> > flying a Club Class ship? *Yes. *There is a chance. *Slim, but at
> > least the chance is there.
>
> > Tasking for Sports can be a real joke with turn radii as large as 30
> > miles. *60 miles across. *You can't see 60 miles here in the eastern
> > part of USA. *But you could be on the "same" task, going to the "same"
> > turnpoint but be 60 miles apart. *What good is that when pilots are
> > competing against each other? *Are you flying in the same type of
> > airmass when separated that far apart? *Not necessarily. *Let's fly to
> > the same point, turn and keep going.
>
> > Last summer at Cordele, John Cochrane did explain that a CD can use
> > the MAT in a Sports Class to simulate an Assigned task. *If the MAT is
> > called right, by golly, it would seem like an AST. *And I would much
> > rather fly an AST or a properly called MAT than a turn area task with
> > 20 or 30 mile radii on the turnpoints.
>
> > Am I a "hard core" racer? *No. *I just enjoy the chance to fly and fly
> > and fly. *Yes, Sports Class is fun, but Club Class is more fun because
> > the competition is closer. *I'm not flying Club Class to try and earn
> > a spot on the National Team to go fly in the Worlds. *I'm just out to
> > have some fun.
>
> > Should Club Class negate the need for Sports Class? *NO! *But Sport
> > Class shouldn't negate the need for Club Class.
>
> > So why are some folks seemingly afraid of Club Class? *Why not promote
> > it and allow it to grow? *I'm going to keep needling at my friends
> > with their Standard Cirruses and LS3's and Libelles and ASW-24's and
> > see if I can coax them into coming to Cordele where, I hope, they will
> > host another Club Class.
>
> > (Ulterior motive to having lots of friends at the contest: *So they
> > can take turns coming to get me on my landouts...)
>
> > Thanks,
> > Ray Lovinggood
> > Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
>
> Cordele is hosting a Club Class at Cordele in 2010. We have moved the date
> to a bit later to try to avoid the bad effects of El Nino (and a few other
> reasons).
>
> We have Sports Class too and we will blend the Club Class into the Sports
> Class if we must, but so far, it looks good to go.
>
> Come sign up-We have the "A" for the staff.-we're planning a good time for
> all who come.
>
> Hartley Falbaum
> Competition Manager
> Region V South, Cordele, GA

Early days - but here is the current contestant sign-up by class:

Club - 8
15M - 4
Sports - 3
Standard - 2
18M - 1

If you get 40 total entries that will be 8 on average per class, if
you combined down to 3 classes you'd be at 11-12 per class or 50%
higher, but inevitably some classes will have more and others less. I
find 4-6 gliders in a class (can't have less than 4) a lot less
enjoyable and competitive than 8-10, so there's a tradeoff, but I'd be
a lot less inclined to go to a Regionals where there are barely enough
gliders signed up to make my class viable.

The idea of splitting/dividing classes depending on the entries can
make sense so long as you don't cave into pilot pressure and split a
class such that one of the split out classes has only 4-6 gliders in
it. I would find that frustrating.

9B

[Berry[_2_]]

In article
>,
rlovinggood > wrote:

> Does anyone use Club Class?
>
> Yes! I "use" Club Class. I use it by flying a club class glider. I
> have flown in a handful of Sports Class races and I flew in the
> inagural Club Class at Cordele, Georgia, USA in 2009.
>


Well said, Ray and Tim!

Ray, I'm glad you mentioned the MAT. A MAT can indeed be called to
emulate the good points of an AST. That was done at the Triple Tree
race, near Spartanburg, SC (USA) this past summer. The MAT's were
essentially AST's with one pick-your-own turnpoint at the end. Worked
very well.

Tim mentioned the affordable cost of Club/Sports. I gotta brag here: My
301 Libelle was bought out of Germany back in 2000 when the dollar was
worth something (I should have bought more glider). My panel is lavishly
outfitted with a Borgelt B40, Winter mechanical, and a Microair radio.
My nav suite is a $35 Palm Tungsten with a $20 battery pack, running
Soaring Pilot (freeware), and getting GPS data from a $30 bluetooth GPS
puck. I did splurge on a Volkslogger back in 2001- $700. My tow vehicle
was a $4000 Dodge van. My whole rig, for 9 years of racing cost me about
$16,000 (not counting glider insurance and repairs on that Chrysler POS).

WB

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

On Jan 28, 11:56*am, Pat Russell > wrote:
> Does any country run competitions in the IGC Club Class?


Germany comes the closest.

The German national competition rules are essentially identical to the
Annex A (IGC) rules. Tasking and scoring are very similar. The
Germans still have a distance task. Their scoring formulas differ
insignificantly from those in Annex A. In the Club Class, they have
removed some gliders from the top (high performance) end of the list
and added many gliders to the middle and lower portions. Gliders that
appear on both lists have exactly the same handicaps. Here is the
German handicap list:

http://www.daec.de/se/downfiles/2009/DMSt-WO2009.pdf


In the UK, the story is approximately the same. Tasking is identical
to Annex A. Turnpoint geometry differs. Scoring is different in ways
that affect day valuation. The Club Class list is derived from the
IGC list, but handicaps (called "speed index") are assigned by BGA.
Gliders are added throughout the list, and, unlike in Germany, no top
end gliders are removed. The UK rules, including handicaps, are here:

http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/competitionrules2009.pdf


In the USA, tasking is similar to Annex A, but with the addition of a
speed task with pilot-selected turnpoints. There are more safety-
related rules, and team flying is not allowed. Scoring is entirely
different, and penalties (esp. airspace) are more severe. There are
two classes that meet the IGC definition of Club Class. As in the UK,
handicaps are assigned by the national organization. One of the two
classes excludes no gliders at all, but disallows one of the tasks.
The other one is similar to the UK Club Class, with the addition of
locally popular gliders. Of the two classes, only the former has a
national championships. Here is the USA handicap list:

http://www.ssa.org/sailplaneadmin/sailplane_handicap_xls.asp


Competition pilots in all three countries (at least those who read
this newsgroup) seem satisfied with their local implementations of the
IGC Club Class.

[HL Falbaum[_2_]]

"Andy" > wrote in message
...
On Feb 2, 1:53 pm, "HL Falbaum" > wrote:
> "rlovinggood" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
>>
> Cordele is hosting a Club Class at Cordele in 2010. We have moved the date
> to a bit later to try to avoid the bad effects of El Nino (and a few other
> reasons).
>
> We have Sports Class too and we will blend the Club Class into the Sports
> Class if we must, but so far, it looks good to go.
>
> Come sign up-We have the "A" for the staff.-we're planning a good time for
> all who come.
>
> Hartley Falbaum
> Competition Manager
> Region V South, Cordele, GA

Early days - but here is the current contestant sign-up by class:

Club - 8
15M - 4
Sports - 3
Standard - 2
18M - 1

If you get 40 total entries that will be 8 on average per class, if
you combined down to 3 classes you'd be at 11-12 per class or 50%
higher, but inevitably some classes will have more and others less. I
find 4-6 gliders in a class (can't have less than 4) a lot less
enjoyable and competitive than 8-10, so there's a tradeoff, but I'd be
a lot less inclined to go to a Regionals where there are barely enough
gliders signed up to make my class viable.

The idea of splitting/dividing classes depending on the entries can
make sense so long as you don't cave into pilot pressure and split a
class such that one of the split out classes has only 4-6 gliders in
it. I would find that frustrating.

9B

Andy;

It is early yet, and most of the Cordele "Regulars" are not yet signed up.
I agree--the more per class the better.
If I recall correctly, the 18-15-std can be combined as needed.
If we have to combine Club-Sports we can make the tasking "interesting" for
all.

Nonetheless--the Club Class wants to race for sure!

So-let's go for it and see what happens.

Hartley Falbaum
CM Reg V So 2010

[AK]

I keep reading this thread and I must say there are some here who have
a real competitive class to go to (e.g. ASW-27 owners) but they refuse
to give the same right to Club Class gliders owners in the U.S.

It is time to stop treating Club Class owners as lesser citizens of
this community just because they don’t have fancy gliders.

We already restrict classes. No 18 m gliders show up for the 15 m
Nationals. So what is the problem with restricting higher performance
gliders from Club Class?

Maybe we should combine open, 18 m and 15 m class and call it a Super
Sports Class and do away with the existing classes. I can see the
uprising this would cause. I am not advocating this. I am simply
making a point here.

If we have Club Class Nationals on the east coast we will have plenty
of people participating and Sports class will not die out.

I am an ex-club class glider owner moving to a different class. I have
no interest of my own here.

[Andy[_10_]]

On Feb 3, 3:38*pm, AK > wrote:
> I keep reading this thread and I must say there are some here who have
> a real competitive class to go to (e.g. ASW-27 owners) but they refuse
> to give the same right to Club Class gliders owners in the U.S.
>
> It is time to stop treating Club Class owners as lesser citizens of
> this community just because they don’t have fancy gliders.
>
> We already restrict classes. No 18 m gliders show up for the 15 m
> Nationals. So what is the problem with restricting higher performance
> gliders from Club Class?
>
> Maybe we should combine open, 18 m and 15 m class and call it a Super
> Sports Class and do away with the existing classes. I can see the
> uprising this would cause. I am not advocating this. I am simply
> making a point here.
>
> If we have Club Class Nationals on the east coast we will have plenty
> of people participating and Sports class will not die out.
>
> I am an ex-club class glider owner moving to a different class. I have
> no interest of my own here.

I don't think the FAI guys are as hard over about that as you think -
it isn't racing unless you are racing against someone and more is
better than less. I see a fair number of contest with combined FAI
classes. The main reason I see people resisting combining classes is
they are trying to maximize their odds of getting on the podium - but
usually those victories are a bit hollow.

9B