Wearing a G-1 flight jacket off base?

[Michael]

What are the current regulations in regard to this? A friend of mine
in Chicago said while he was at lunch the other day he saw a Navy
officer in uniform and his G-1 at a fast food joint. He was suprised
to the see the flight jacket, because he was under the impression they
weren't allowed to be worn off base. I figure since the guy was in
uniform and the G-1 doesn't really get used in the air much anymore,
that it was fine to be wearing it.

Thanks,

~Michael

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/16/03 4:38 PM, in article
, "Michael"
> wrote:

> What are the current regulations in regard to this? A friend of mine
> in Chicago said while he was at lunch the other day he saw a Navy
> officer in uniform and his G-1 at a fast food joint. He was suprised
> to the see the flight jacket, because he was under the impression they
> weren't allowed to be worn off base. I figure since the guy was in
> uniform and the G-1 doesn't really get used in the air much anymore,
> that it was fine to be wearing it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> ~Michael

There are more important things to worry about but...

My understanding of the current regulations is:

Leather jackets may be worn either with khakis or with a flight suit on or
off base.

The green flight jacket may be worn only with the flight suit or with the
"working khakis" and then only on base.

Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
positive image to the public.

--Woody

[Jake Donovan]

Woody,

You almost got it right. Leather jackets can be worn any where in khakis or
flight suit.

Nomex (green) jacket can only be worn on flight line. You can wear it coming
on base, or leaving base but can only be "seen" in it on the flight line and
the O'club. (Or entering and leaving quarters to or from the flightline.)

There is some leeway made for transient pilots with downed aircraft.

I honestly had a black shoe Chief quote me the regs in an on base Navy
Exchange while waiting on repairs (went and had lunch). I told him "this is
what I arrived in, I wasn't sitting in 40 deg weather for hours in the
transient shack and if he would like, he could accompany me to the Base CO
and discuss it."

Backed down and said, "I guess they allow that, Capt" and walked off.

JD



"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/16/03 4:38 PM, in article
> , "Michael"
> > wrote:
>
> > What are the current regulations in regard to this? A friend of mine
> > in Chicago said while he was at lunch the other day he saw a Navy
> > officer in uniform and his G-1 at a fast food joint. He was suprised
> > to the see the flight jacket, because he was under the impression they
> > weren't allowed to be worn off base. I figure since the guy was in
> > uniform and the G-1 doesn't really get used in the air much anymore,
> > that it was fine to be wearing it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > ~Michael
>
> There are more important things to worry about but...
>
> My understanding of the current regulations is:
>
> Leather jackets may be worn either with khakis or with a flight suit on or
> off base.
>
> The green flight jacket may be worn only with the flight suit or with the
> "working khakis" and then only on base.
>
> Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
> dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
> positive image to the public.
>
> --Woody
>

[John Carrier]

> Nomex (green) jacket can only be worn on flight line. You can wear it
coming
> on base, or leaving base but can only be "seen" in it on the flight line
and
> the O'club. (Or entering and leaving quarters to or from the flightline.)

That may be written down somewhere, but I never had a problem wearing the
nomex jacket ANYWHERE on base in my entire career ... going back over thirty
years. That includes the infamous era at Miramar when Field Day Fellows
would post squadron XO's at the main gate to bust anyone wearing their
flight jacket in their car.

These days I wear one anywhere I please.

R / John

[Michael]

"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message news:<%OKjb.80113$AH4.25335@lakeread06>...
> Woody,
>
> You almost got it right. Leather jackets can be worn any where in khakis or
> flight suit.
>
> Nomex (green) jacket can only be worn on flight line. You can wear it coming
> on base, or leaving base but can only be "seen" in it on the flight line and
> the O'club. (Or entering and leaving quarters to or from the flightline.)
>
> There is some leeway made for transient pilots with downed aircraft.
>
> I honestly had a black shoe Chief quote me the regs in an on base Navy
> Exchange while waiting on repairs (went and had lunch). I told him "this is
> what I arrived in, I wasn't sitting in 40 deg weather for hours in the
> transient shack and if he would like, he could accompany me to the Base CO
> and discuss it."
>
> Backed down and said, "I guess they allow that, Capt" and walked off.
>
> JD

Thanks for the answer JD.

And Woody, this wasn't something I was "worried" about, just something
I wondered about. I've got zero problem with a flyer wearing his G-1
off base, rules permitting or not.

Thanks,

~Michael



> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 10/16/03 4:38 PM, in article
> > , "Michael"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > What are the current regulations in regard to this? A friend of mine
> > > in Chicago said while he was at lunch the other day he saw a Navy
> > > officer in uniform and his G-1 at a fast food joint. He was suprised
> > > to the see the flight jacket, because he was under the impression they
> > > weren't allowed to be worn off base. I figure since the guy was in
> > > uniform and the G-1 doesn't really get used in the air much anymore,
> > > that it was fine to be wearing it.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > ~Michael
> >
> > There are more important things to worry about but...
> >
> > My understanding of the current regulations is:
> >
> > Leather jackets may be worn either with khakis or with a flight suit on or
> > off base.
> >
> > The green flight jacket may be worn only with the flight suit or with the
> > "working khakis" and then only on base.
> >
> > Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
> > dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
> > positive image to the public.
> >
> > --Woody
> >

[Jake Donovan]

John,

This has happened in the last 2 or 3 years.

I think it was part of the give and take that allowed us to wear flightsuits
anywhere. Something had to give. Just a guess as most of it never made
sense to me.

JD

(I like the one that allows black shoes to wear brown shoes because the
women complained so much that black shoes didn't go with their khakis.
(PLEASE NOTE - that reason is only rumor. What a world!)


"John Carrier" > wrote in message
...
> > Nomex (green) jacket can only be worn on flight line. You can wear it
> coming
> > on base, or leaving base but can only be "seen" in it on the flight line
> and
> > the O'club. (Or entering and leaving quarters to or from the
flightline.)
>
> That may be written down somewhere, but I never had a problem wearing the
> nomex jacket ANYWHERE on base in my entire career ... going back over
thirty
> years. That includes the infamous era at Miramar when Field Day Fellows
> would post squadron XO's at the main gate to bust anyone wearing their
> flight jacket in their car.
>
> These days I wear one anywhere I please.
>
> R / John
>
>

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/17/03 8:36 AM, in article
, "Michael"
> wrote:

>
> Thanks for the answer JD.
>
> And Woody, this wasn't something I was "worried" about, just something
> I wondered about. I've got zero problem with a flyer wearing his G-1
> off base, rules permitting or not.
>
> Thanks,
>
> ~Michael
>
>> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 10/16/03 4:38 PM, in article
>>> , "Michael"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> What are the current regulations in regard to this? A friend of mine
>>>> in Chicago said while he was at lunch the other day he saw a Navy
>>>> officer in uniform and his G-1 at a fast food joint. He was suprised
>>>> to the see the flight jacket, because he was under the impression they
>>>> weren't allowed to be worn off base. I figure since the guy was in
>>>> uniform and the G-1 doesn't really get used in the air much anymore,
>>>> that it was fine to be wearing it.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> ~Michael
>>>
>>> There are more important things to worry about but...
>>>
>>> My understanding of the current regulations is:
>>>
>>> Leather jackets may be worn either with khakis or with a flight suit on or
>>> off base.
>>>
>>> The green flight jacket may be worn only with the flight suit or with the
>>> "working khakis" and then only on base.
>>>
>>> Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
>>> dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
>>> positive image to the public.
>>>
>>> --Woody
>>>

The "worried about" comment wasn't meant to be pointed directly at you,
Michael. In 17 years of doing this stuff, I'm a bit frustrated at the folks
who *do* make a big deal of it (for various reasons). I can understand your
curiosity factor... Which is why I made the attempt at answering the
question instead of ending the post after the top line.

But since my nerve has been inadvertently touched, allow me a small rant...

The black shoe Navy (and some senior Flag aviators who have forgotten what
it was like to be a JO) have gone a two different ways with flight clothing.

(a) In the past, hold the aviators down by banning them from wearing the
flight suit/jackets anywhere off base. Mighty frustrating having to change
out of the flight suit to get gas while USAF dudes were having lunch at
Burger King in theirs... Thank goodness those days are over.

(b) Currently, they have proliferated it and made it something less
"special" or unique to aviation. Not that I wear khakis very often, but
when I do, I am proud to be a "brown shoe." Nowadays, the black shoes have
the option of wearing brown shoes too (though honestly most don't for the
same reason I don't wear the black ones) BUT many of them opt for the green
Nomex flight jacket (which used to be an "aviators only item) instead of the
(standard) khaki jacket.

It's all part of the blending and melding that's so prevalent in the
military today. Rant over. I feel better.

--Woody

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/17/03 1:52 PM, in article ,
"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote:

> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote:
>
>> Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
>> dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
>> positive image to the public.
>
> Maybe the flight suits of the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds. I know
> the flight suits worn by any number of the pilots in the squadrons I
> served in would express anything *but* a "positive image to the
> public", were they to be seen in them off-base.
>
> OJ III
> [Maj Foo, my OpsO, to Maj Bar, a Wing pogue assigned to fly with us to
> maintain currency, "'Slick', when are you gonna survey that flight
> suit? I'm ashamed to be seen on the flight line walking out to the
> aircraft with you. The plane captains don't want you /sitting/ in
> their aircraft, much less flying them. Maintenance Control wants me
> to bring the book to you to sign the bird out and in, so you won't
> have to enter their shack. ... ... ..."]

Strictly referring to the uniform itself (or organizational clothing for you
purists): When I go to the grocery store in my flight suit, I am
immediately recognized as a pilot by the public. Since 9/11, OEF, and OIF,
it expresses a positive image to the public because they know it's my
business clothes.

If you're referring to the overall condition of the garment, that's a matter
of personal responsibility and command leadership (i.e., the XO needs to
pound a few heads and rattle the supply folks).

If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
McDonalds.

--Woody

[John Carrier]

">I know
> the flight suits worn by any number of the pilots in the squadrons I
> served in would express anything *but* a "positive image to the
> public", were they to be seen in them off-base.

Ah, but you never saw me in my tailored Orange suit with racing stripes.
And then there was the Lehman's Navy Blue suit with "Trust me, I know what
I'm doing" embroidered on the back.

R / John

[Mary Shafer]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:17:19 GMT, "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal"
> wrote:

> Strictly referring to the uniform itself (or organizational clothing for you
> purists): When I go to the grocery store in my flight suit, I am
> immediately recognized as a pilot by the public. Since 9/11, OEF, and OIF,
> it expresses a positive image to the public because they know it's my
> business clothes.

Not that it was a uniform for me, being NASA, but it was my business
clothes at times, too. I did notice people noticing, if you know what
I mean.

I've always wondered what the good folks of Buffalo thought when they
saw our heterogenous group, with USAF, NYANG, NASA, and (at the time)
Calspan name tags and patches on our flight suits and jackets. All of
us were in the standard G.I. green bags, mostly with green jackets,
because that's what we were issued. We spent a fair amount of time
"in public", in restaurants, etc, too.

The only way to tell who was a pilot and who wasn't, beyond general
appearance, was to inspect name tags for wings, come to think of it.
After all, I'm only half an inch too short for military aviation.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Thomas Schoene]

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message


> If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
> McDonalds.

I'm looking forward to seeing Marines in line at McD's wearing their PASGT
vests and Fritz helments...

(It's a joke, Doug! See :-)

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/17/03 7:14 PM, in article
, "Thomas Schoene"
> wrote:

> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
>
>
>> If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
>> McDonalds.
>
> I'm looking forward to seeing Marines in line at McD's wearing their PASGT
> vests and Fritz helments...
>
> (It's a joke, Doug! See :-)
>

Funny thing is: As soon as I wrote it, I predicted that sort of response.
It's a good joke, Tom! Happy to lob you the softball.

--Woody

[Jim Calpin]

Interesting contrast at Fallon and at Andrews AFB:

At Fallon, where there is barely a shoe to be found, bags off-base are a
big no-no. At Andrews, where you would think you might find a few more
regulation-quoters (albeit USAF ones), no problem. The Andrews
situation is explained by a) a different Service culture and b) the
realization that seeing guys in organizational clothing in and around
the area is *good* for PR. Don't know if it's consistent across the
USAF though.

-Jim C.

Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal wrote:
>
> On 10/17/03 8:36 AM, in article
> , "Michael"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> > Thanks for the answer JD.
> >
> > And Woody, this wasn't something I was "worried" about, just something
> > I wondered about. I've got zero problem with a flyer wearing his G-1
> > off base, rules permitting or not.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > ~Michael
> >
> >> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> On 10/16/03 4:38 PM, in article
> >>> , "Michael"
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> What are the current regulations in regard to this? A friend of mine
> >>>> in Chicago said while he was at lunch the other day he saw a Navy
> >>>> officer in uniform and his G-1 at a fast food joint. He was suprised
> >>>> to the see the flight jacket, because he was under the impression they
> >>>> weren't allowed to be worn off base. I figure since the guy was in
> >>>> uniform and the G-1 doesn't really get used in the air much anymore,
> >>>> that it was fine to be wearing it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>> ~Michael
> >>>
> >>> There are more important things to worry about but...
> >>>
> >>> My understanding of the current regulations is:
> >>>
> >>> Leather jackets may be worn either with khakis or with a flight suit on or
> >>> off base.
> >>>
> >>> The green flight jacket may be worn only with the flight suit or with the
> >>> "working khakis" and then only on base.
> >>>
> >>> Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
> >>> dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
> >>> positive image to the public.
> >>>
> >>> --Woody
> >>>
>
> The "worried about" comment wasn't meant to be pointed directly at you,
> Michael. In 17 years of doing this stuff, I'm a bit frustrated at the folks
> who *do* make a big deal of it (for various reasons). I can understand your
> curiosity factor... Which is why I made the attempt at answering the
> question instead of ending the post after the top line.
>
> But since my nerve has been inadvertently touched, allow me a small rant...
>
> The black shoe Navy (and some senior Flag aviators who have forgotten what
> it was like to be a JO) have gone a two different ways with flight clothing.
>
> (a) In the past, hold the aviators down by banning them from wearing the
> flight suit/jackets anywhere off base. Mighty frustrating having to change
> out of the flight suit to get gas while USAF dudes were having lunch at
> Burger King in theirs... Thank goodness those days are over.
>
> (b) Currently, they have proliferated it and made it something less
> "special" or unique to aviation. Not that I wear khakis very often, but
> when I do, I am proud to be a "brown shoe." Nowadays, the black shoes have
> the option of wearing brown shoes too (though honestly most don't for the
> same reason I don't wear the black ones) BUT many of them opt for the green
> Nomex flight jacket (which used to be an "aviators only item) instead of the
> (standard) khaki jacket.
>
> It's all part of the blending and melding that's so prevalent in the
> military today. Rant over. I feel better.
>
> --Woody

[Thomas Schoene]

"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message

> > (It's a joke, Doug! See :-)
> >
>
> Funny thing is: As soon as I wrote it, I predicted that sort of
> response. It's a good joke, Tom! Happy to lob you the softball.

Hey, I can use all the help I can get.

Of course, it's not really a fair comparison. Marines wearing flak jackets
would be like you showing up with speed jeans, survival vest, and helmet.
The Marines dop get to go off-base in cammies, after all.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Mike Kanze]

Woody,

>If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
McDonalds.

Every cop I've ever met would agree with you.

You get the prize for this week's most quotable line in R.A.M.N.

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"That's as close as I've been to Earth in 60,000 years, and it's as close as
I EVER want to get."

- The Planet Mars, quoted in New Yorker Magazine


"Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
...
> On 10/17/03 1:52 PM, in article
,
> "Ogden Johnson III" > wrote:
>
> > "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote:
> >
> >> Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots
should
> >> dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
> >> positive image to the public.
> >
> > Maybe the flight suits of the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds. I know
> > the flight suits worn by any number of the pilots in the squadrons I
> > served in would express anything *but* a "positive image to the
> > public", were they to be seen in them off-base.
> >
> > OJ III
> > [Maj Foo, my OpsO, to Maj Bar, a Wing pogue assigned to fly with us to
> > maintain currency, "'Slick', when are you gonna survey that flight
> > suit? I'm ashamed to be seen on the flight line walking out to the
> > aircraft with you. The plane captains don't want you /sitting/ in
> > their aircraft, much less flying them. Maintenance Control wants me
> > to bring the book to you to sign the bird out and in, so you won't
> > have to enter their shack. ... ... ..."]
>
> Strictly referring to the uniform itself (or organizational clothing for
you
> purists): When I go to the grocery store in my flight suit, I am
> immediately recognized as a pilot by the public. Since 9/11, OEF, and
OIF,
> it expresses a positive image to the public because they know it's my
> business clothes.
>
> If you're referring to the overall condition of the garment, that's a
matter
> of personal responsibility and command leadership (i.e., the XO needs to
> pound a few heads and rattle the supply folks).
>
> If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
> McDonalds.
>
> --Woody
>

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/18/03 10:03 AM, in article , "Jim Calpin"
> wrote:

> Interesting contrast at Fallon and at Andrews AFB:
>
> At Fallon, where there is barely a shoe to be found, bags off-base are a
> big no-no. At Andrews, where you would think you might find a few more
> regulation-quoters (albeit USAF ones), no problem. The Andrews
> situation is explained by a) a different Service culture and b) the
> realization that seeing guys in organizational clothing in and around
> the area is *good* for PR. Don't know if it's consistent across the
> USAF though.
>
> -Jim C.
>

Jim,

That's because the Commander at NSAWC is a post-CARGRU Admiral. Those guys
drink too much salt-peter and black-shoe Kool-Aid laced water that has been
distilled by nuclear reactors.

In other words, they've forgotten what it's like to be a J.O.

Me, on the other hand, I left active duty as a junior O-4, so the J.O.
mindset is still fresh in my mind.

If it doesn't hurt the command, and it's a good deal for the J.O.'s... let
'em do it.

Funny how those inconsistencies STILL exist, isn't it?

--Woody

[Michael]

"Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message >...
> The "worried about" comment wasn't meant to be pointed directly at you,
> Michael. In 17 years of doing this stuff, I'm a bit frustrated at the folks
> who *do* make a big deal of it (for various reasons). I can understand your
> curiosity factor... Which is why I made the attempt at answering the
> question instead of ending the post after the top line.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't sure if you felt I was one
of the uptight people that worried about stuff like that.

> But since my nerve has been inadvertently touched, allow me a small rant...
>
> The black shoe Navy (and some senior Flag aviators who have forgotten what
> it was like to be a JO) have gone a two different ways with flight clothing.
>
> (a) In the past, hold the aviators down by banning them from wearing the
> flight suit/jackets anywhere off base. Mighty frustrating having to change
> out of the flight suit to get gas while USAF dudes were having lunch at
> Burger King in theirs... Thank goodness those days are over.
>
> (b) Currently, they have proliferated it and made it something less
> "special" or unique to aviation. Not that I wear khakis very often, but
> when I do, I am proud to be a "brown shoe." Nowadays, the black shoes have
> the option of wearing brown shoes too (though honestly most don't for the
> same reason I don't wear the black ones)

Why are they given the option of wearing brown shoes now?!

>BUT many of them opt for the green Nomex flight jacket (which used to
be >an "aviators only item) instead of the (standard) khaki jacket.

Hmm, that's no good. The Nomex should remain an aviator only garment.

~Michael

[Bob McKellar]

Michael wrote:

> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message >...
> > The "worried about" comment wasn't meant to be pointed directly at you,
> > Michael. In 17 years of doing this stuff, I'm a bit frustrated at the folks
> > who *do* make a big deal of it (for various reasons). I can understand your
> > curiosity factor... Which is why I made the attempt at answering the
> > question instead of ending the post after the top line.
>
> Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't sure if you felt I was one
> of the uptight people that worried about stuff like that.
>
> > But since my nerve has been inadvertently touched, allow me a small rant...
> >
> > The black shoe Navy (and some senior Flag aviators who have forgotten what
> > it was like to be a JO) have gone a two different ways with flight clothing.
> >
> > (a) In the past, hold the aviators down by banning them from wearing the
> > flight suit/jackets anywhere off base. Mighty frustrating having to change
> > out of the flight suit to get gas while USAF dudes were having lunch at
> > Burger King in theirs... Thank goodness those days are over.
> >
> > (b) Currently, they have proliferated it and made it something less
> > "special" or unique to aviation. Not that I wear khakis very often, but
> > when I do, I am proud to be a "brown shoe." Nowadays, the black shoes have
> > the option of wearing brown shoes too (though honestly most don't for the
> > same reason I don't wear the black ones)
>
> Why are they given the option of wearing brown shoes now?!
>
> >BUT many of them opt for the green Nomex flight jacket (which used to
> be >an "aviators only item) instead of the (standard) khaki jacket.
>
> Hmm, that's no good. The Nomex should remain an aviator only garment.
>
> ~Michael

On my Tin Can, which was new construction, we had a full complement of nice new foul weather gear. In addition to the
regular green cloth jackets, we had a number of "Extreme foul weather" coats. These were some kind of shiny synthetic, well
padded and insulated, and had a cool looking rib running down the outside of each sleeve.

Naturally , these were much coveted and a command decision was made to issue them to officers and chiefs only. This
directive was modified down in the gear locker to be: officers, chiefs, and SK (Storekeeper) petty officers.

As you would expect, this created an immediate uproar and the original unmodified policy was quickly forced, enforced and
reinforced. The SK's hadn't really expected to get away with it anyway.

I don't think the flight gear battles are a whole lot different.

Bob McKellar, former Tin Can Pork Chop

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/18/03 8:14 PM, in article , "Bob
McKellar" > wrote:

>
>
> Michael wrote:
>
>> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> The "worried about" comment wasn't meant to be pointed directly at you,
>>> Michael. In 17 years of doing this stuff, I'm a bit frustrated at the folks
>>> who *do* make a big deal of it (for various reasons). I can understand your
>>> curiosity factor... Which is why I made the attempt at answering the
>>> question instead of ending the post after the top line.
>>
>> Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't sure if you felt I was one
>> of the uptight people that worried about stuff like that.
>>
>>> But since my nerve has been inadvertently touched, allow me a small rant...
>>>
>>> The black shoe Navy (and some senior Flag aviators who have forgotten what
>>> it was like to be a JO) have gone a two different ways with flight clothing.
>>>
>>> (a) In the past, hold the aviators down by banning them from wearing the
>>> flight suit/jackets anywhere off base. Mighty frustrating having to change
>>> out of the flight suit to get gas while USAF dudes were having lunch at
>>> Burger King in theirs... Thank goodness those days are over.
>>>
>>> (b) Currently, they have proliferated it and made it something less
>>> "special" or unique to aviation. Not that I wear khakis very often, but
>>> when I do, I am proud to be a "brown shoe." Nowadays, the black shoes have
>>> the option of wearing brown shoes too (though honestly most don't for the
>>> same reason I don't wear the black ones)
>>
>> Why are they given the option of wearing brown shoes now?!
>>
>>> BUT many of them opt for the green Nomex flight jacket (which used to
>> be >an "aviators only item) instead of the (standard) khaki jacket.
>>
>> Hmm, that's no good. The Nomex should remain an aviator only garment.
>>
>> ~Michael
>
> On my Tin Can, which was new construction, we had a full complement of nice
> new foul weather gear. In addition to the
> regular green cloth jackets, we had a number of "Extreme foul weather" coats.
> These were some kind of shiny synthetic, well
> padded and insulated, and had a cool looking rib running down the outside of
> each sleeve.
>
> Naturally , these were much coveted and a command decision was made to issue
> them to officers and chiefs only. This
> directive was modified down in the gear locker to be: officers, chiefs, and SK
> (Storekeeper) petty officers.
>
> As you would expect, this created an immediate uproar and the original
> unmodified policy was quickly forced, enforced and
> reinforced. The SK's hadn't really expected to get away with it anyway.
>
> I don't think the flight gear battles are a whole lot different.
>
> Bob McKellar, former Tin Can Pork Chop
>

As the "chop," I'm sure you have the more "Fox News" balanced perspective
(i.e. had a good view of the issue from both sides).

Keeping in mind my only contact with the black shoe Navy was limited--an
occasional AW conference with the small boy crews in San Diego during my CVW
Strike Ops tour and the assorted bump-intos with staffers assigned to the
CVN, my view may be a bit skewed (not to mention my Neanderthal pilot-monkey
bias), but even the standard light-weight Nomex jackets were coveted by
these guys and immediately festooned with DESRON, DDG, CG, etc patches (just
like their aviator counterparts).

Kinda makes me wanna hurl.

I gotta stop responding to these posts. I feel like I'm just ranting and
beating a dead horse. Truly, folks, I don't lie awake nights freaking out
about this stuff.

--Woody

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/18/03 7:11 PM, in article
, "Michael"
> wrote:

> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> >...
>> The "worried about" comment wasn't meant to be pointed directly at you,
>> Michael. In 17 years of doing this stuff, I'm a bit frustrated at the folks
>> who *do* make a big deal of it (for various reasons). I can understand your
>> curiosity factor... Which is why I made the attempt at answering the
>> question instead of ending the post after the top line.
>
> Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't sure if you felt I was one
> of the uptight people that worried about stuff like that.
>

It's cool. Without the benefit of facial expressions and voice inflection,
communication can get a bit garbled sometimes. Good points all.

<SNIP>

> Why are they given the option of wearing brown shoes now?!
>

Believe it or not, it was a "color coordination" issue, and it was meant to
"unify" the communities.

>> BUT many of them opt for the green Nomex flight jacket (which used to
> be >an "aviators only item) instead of the (standard) khaki jacket.
>
> Hmm, that's no good. The Nomex should remain an aviator only garment.
>
> ~Michael

[Elmshoot]

>At Fallon, where there is barely a shoe to be found, bags off-base are a
>big no-no.

In the 80's. Bags were allowed off base at the Eagle bar. I guess the CO at
Fallon was a bit more enlightened. I think it was pushed by the Strike U folks
but when on det there it was nice to at least be able to go to one bar in town
to drink fire water. We played a lot of Pattsy Cline on the Juke Box.

[John Miller]

Michael wrote:
> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
> >...
>> (b) Currently, they have proliferated it and made it something less
>> "special" or unique to aviation. Not that I wear khakis very often, but
>> when I do, I am proud to be a "brown shoe." Nowadays, the black shoes
>> have the option of wearing brown shoes too (though honestly most don't
>> for the same reason I don't wear the black ones)
>
> Why are they given the option of wearing brown shoes now?!

It's been 30 years, now, but staff officers (I was 1655), must have had the
option -- whether officially or unofficially -- of wearing the color shoes
that fit in with the outift we were attached to. I definitely wore brown
shoes with khaki in Pensacola in the early '70s, at the urging of the SO
aviators in the division, even though my designator was not aviation.

--
John Miller
My email address: Domain, n4vu.com; username, jsm

God requireth not a uniformity of religion.
-Roger Williams

[John Miller]

Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:
> Keeping in mind my only contact with the black shoe Navy was limited--an
> occasional AW conference with the small boy crews in San Diego during my
> CVW Strike Ops tour and the assorted bump-intos with staffers assigned to
> the CVN, my view may be a bit skewed (not to mention my Neanderthal
> pilot-monkey bias), but even the standard light-weight Nomex jackets were
> coveted by these guys and immediately festooned with DESRON, DDG, CG, etc
> patches (just like their aviator counterparts).

Sounds like you object to being admired! Remember, what makes you a Naval
Aviator isn't the clothes you wear. And no matter how salty their jackets,
you've got one thing those guys never will: your wings.

> Kinda makes me wanna hurl.
>
> I gotta stop responding to these posts. I feel like I'm just ranting and
> beating a dead horse. Truly, folks, I don't lie awake nights freaking out
> about this stuff.

Life's definitely too short for that sort of thing.

Here's one: I've got a pristine G-1. I've also got a collection of patches
from commands in which I served, passenger traps on the Lex, a VIP ride
with Blue Angel #7, you get the picture. I am a pilot, but not a Naval
Aviator. Do you take any comfort in knowing that I haven't festooned my
jacket with the patches? (Just asking, but asking sincerely.)

Hey, sitting around Trader's maybe I couldn't drink as much as you guys, but
I could get just as drunk.

--
John Miller
My email address: Domain, n4vu.com; username, jsm

Polymer physicists are into chains.

[WaltBJ]

Glad to see the Navy loosen up on wearing flight suits. Only took
about 30 years. Must have had to retire a lot of old crusty admirals.
USAF loosened up back in the 60s, command by command, base by base.
Don't know who was last to loosen up, SAC or ATC probably. ADC was
first, then TAC, I believe. I do remember in 62 we had a pilot land a
102 at Salt Lake Muni with an aft fire light on continuously. A crack
in a combustion chamber shot hot gas out through fuselage skin, also
cut a HP air line so lost all pneumatics. Once on the ground couldn't
get his clothes and kit out of the missile bay. Up at Hill AFB
(AirMaterielCommand=AMC=AMillionCivilians)they wouldn't let him in the
club to eat in his goat skin. Club Manager relented and fed him in the
kitchen. We 'rescued' him the next day but he was some p'oed and got
out when his time was up.
A' propos of the supply line, back in 56 on Okinawa I had one (1)
flying suit and it was about 25% patched out with cloth from my
fatigues. At the same time we had 2 F86Ds that couldn't fly at night
because we were short two landing lights.
Walt BJ

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/19/03 8:40 AM, in article , "John Miller"
> wrote:

> Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal wrote:
>> Keeping in mind my only contact with the black shoe Navy was limited--an
>> occasional AW conference with the small boy crews in San Diego during my
>> CVW Strike Ops tour and the assorted bump-intos with staffers assigned to
>> the CVN, my view may be a bit skewed (not to mention my Neanderthal
>> pilot-monkey bias), but even the standard light-weight Nomex jackets were
>> coveted by these guys and immediately festooned with DESRON, DDG, CG, etc
>> patches (just like their aviator counterparts).
>
> Sounds like you object to being admired! Remember, what makes you a Naval
> Aviator isn't the clothes you wear. And no matter how salty their jackets,
> you've got one thing those guys never will: your wings.
>

John,

I don't object to being admired. I do object to folks that aren't in my
line of work who want to wear the same clothes I do (in uniform) and then
out of the other side of their mouths tell me where I can and cannot wear
mine.

Don't play in MY sand box while trying to dictate the sand box rules.

>> Kinda makes me wanna hurl.
>>
>> I gotta stop responding to these posts. I feel like I'm just ranting and
>> beating a dead horse. Truly, folks, I don't lie awake nights freaking out
>> about this stuff.

Here I am not heeding my own advice again. I do what I shouldn't do, and
don't do what I should do.

>
> Life's definitely too short for that sort of thing.
>
> Here's one: I've got a pristine G-1. I've also got a collection of patches
> from commands in which I served, passenger traps on the Lex, a VIP ride
> with Blue Angel #7, you get the picture. I am a pilot, but not a Naval
> Aviator. Do you take any comfort in knowing that I haven't festooned my
> jacket with the patches? (Just asking, but asking sincerely.)
>

John, I don't mind you festooning the jacket like a Winnebago... wearing it
to the Food World... whatever. Have at it. In fact, I bought one and
patched it up for a dear friend of mine who would NEVER have physically
qualified to fly in the military.

The problem I have is with uniformed military non-aviators or folks not
within the aviation community dressing like aviators. (I thought that was
an understood point... My apologies.)

Keep in mind, my opinion on this is more of a pet peeve--even less than
that--a slight objection, but I don't understand how these folks that
haven't earned the wings (and hence the flight attire) want to run around in
the flight clothing.

Doesn't that lead to the slightly embarrassing "JAG moment?" e.g. (from a
real conversation between an civilian who had obviously seen the T.V. show
and a JAG wearing a flight jacket):
"You're a JAG then?"
"Yes, I am."
"What kind of airplane do you fly?"

I guess if folks want to deal with that kind of mild embarrassment, you can
be my guest. Granted, the question was as much about the T.V. show as the
jacket, but the jacket added to the illusion, and all things being equal, he
was legal to wear the jacket because he was working on an aviation flag
staff. I relate this story for the humor as much as the evidential value.

By the way, when I retire, I plan on wearing both of my "Winnebagos" out in
town with the rotund gut I intend to grow and thick, short gray hair, so
everybody can spot me as a ustabe. Fragile ego. Needs fed. |:-)

--Woody

> Hey, sitting around Trader's maybe I couldn't drink as much as you guys, but
> I could get just as drunk.

I don't do the drunk thing any more. Not worth the cost in the cost/benefit
analysis. |:-)

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
says...
> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
>
>
> > If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
> > McDonalds.
>
> I'm looking forward to seeing Marines in line at McD's wearing their PASGT
> vests and Fritz helments...

The post I work at has a Bradley and an M1A1 kept as a float for the units
in state.

Can I take on up to the McD drive through ??



> (It's a joke, Doug! See :-)


PLEASE ????


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Alan Minyard]

On 17 Oct 2003 06:36:20 -0700, (Michael) wrote:

>"Jake Donovan" > wrote in message news:<%OKjb.80113$AH4.25335@lakeread06>...
>> Woody,
>>
>> You almost got it right. Leather jackets can be worn any where in khakis or
>> flight suit.
>>
>> Nomex (green) jacket can only be worn on flight line. You can wear it coming
>> on base, or leaving base but can only be "seen" in it on the flight line and
>> the O'club. (Or entering and leaving quarters to or from the flightline.)
>>
>> There is some leeway made for transient pilots with downed aircraft.
>>
>> I honestly had a black shoe Chief quote me the regs in an on base Navy
>> Exchange while waiting on repairs (went and had lunch). I told him "this is
>> what I arrived in, I wasn't sitting in 40 deg weather for hours in the
>> transient shack and if he would like, he could accompany me to the Base CO
>> and discuss it."
>>
>> Backed down and said, "I guess they allow that, Capt" and walked off.
>>
>> JD
>
>Thanks for the answer JD.
>
>And Woody, this wasn't something I was "worried" about, just something
>I wondered about. I've got zero problem with a flyer wearing his G-1
>off base, rules permitting or not.
>
>Thanks,
>
>~Michael
>
>
>
>> "Doug "Woody" and Erin Beal" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On 10/16/03 4:38 PM, in article
>> > , "Michael"
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> > > What are the current regulations in regard to this? A friend of mine
>> > > in Chicago said while he was at lunch the other day he saw a Navy
>> > > officer in uniform and his G-1 at a fast food joint. He was suprised
>> > > to the see the flight jacket, because he was under the impression they
>> > > weren't allowed to be worn off base. I figure since the guy was in
>> > > uniform and the G-1 doesn't really get used in the air much anymore,
>> > > that it was fine to be wearing it.
>> > >
>> > > Thanks,
>> > >
>> > > ~Michael
>> >
>> > There are more important things to worry about but...
>> >
>> > My understanding of the current regulations is:
>> >
>> > Leather jackets may be worn either with khakis or with a flight suit on or
>> > off base.
>> >
>> > The green flight jacket may be worn only with the flight suit or with the
>> > "working khakis" and then only on base.
>> >
>> > Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
>> > dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
>> > positive image to the public.
>> >
>> > --Woody
>> >

Fly-Fly boys should be required to obey regs just like everyone else, they are
not some sort of "ubermench"

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:17:19 GMT, "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote:

>On 10/17/03 1:52 PM, in article ,
>"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote:
>
>> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
>>> dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
>>> positive image to the public.
>>
>> Maybe the flight suits of the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds. I know
>> the flight suits worn by any number of the pilots in the squadrons I
>> served in would express anything *but* a "positive image to the
>> public", were they to be seen in them off-base.
>>
>> OJ III
>> [Maj Foo, my OpsO, to Maj Bar, a Wing pogue assigned to fly with us to
>> maintain currency, "'Slick', when are you gonna survey that flight
>> suit? I'm ashamed to be seen on the flight line walking out to the
>> aircraft with you. The plane captains don't want you /sitting/ in
>> their aircraft, much less flying them. Maintenance Control wants me
>> to bring the book to you to sign the bird out and in, so you won't
>> have to enter their shack. ... ... ..."]
>
>Strictly referring to the uniform itself (or organizational clothing for you
>purists): When I go to the grocery store in my flight suit, I am
>immediately recognized as a pilot by the public. Since 9/11, OEF, and OIF,
>it expresses a positive image to the public because they know it's my
>business clothes.
>
>If you're referring to the overall condition of the garment, that's a matter
>of personal responsibility and command leadership (i.e., the XO needs to
>pound a few heads and rattle the supply folks).
>
>If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
>McDonalds.
>
>--Woody

Then why can't the Enlisted folks wear their dungarees off base??

Al Minyard

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/23/03 6:27 PM, in article ,
"Alan Minyard" > wrote:

>
> Fly-Fly boys should be required to obey regs just like everyone else, they are
> not some sort of "ubermench"
>
> Al Minyard
>

You're trolling.

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/23/03 6:27 PM, in article ,
"Alan Minyard" > wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:17:19 GMT, "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal"
> > wrote:
>
>> Strictly referring to the uniform itself (or organizational clothing for you
>> purists): When I go to the grocery store in my flight suit, I am
>> immediately recognized as a pilot by the public. Since 9/11, OEF, and OIF,
>> it expresses a positive image to the public because they know it's my
>> business clothes.
>>
>> If you're referring to the overall condition of the garment, that's a matter
>> of personal responsibility and command leadership (i.e., the XO needs to
>> pound a few heads and rattle the supply folks).
>>
>> If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
>> McDonalds.
>>
>> --Woody
>
> Then why can't the Enlisted folks wear their dungarees off base??
>
> Al Minyard

That's a great point. I see absolutely no reason why a clean set of
dungaress shouldn't be allowed off base. Unfortunately, I have little/no
say in the matter.

The Navy does allow the cammy uniforms to be worn off base though.

--Woody

[Pechs1]

Doug-<< It's all part of the blending and melding that's so prevalent in the
military today. Rant over. I feel better. >><BR><BR>

After spending an exchange tour with the USAF, and seeing that there wasn't
much the USN could learn from the USAF...One thing the USN could learn is how
to 'view' a zoom bag..as a uni or as 'flight gear'..the USAF sure has this one
right...
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[user]

Hey AL,
FYI, We all know what you meant, but, dungarees are gone,,,the new
uniforms are called "utilities". And they can be worn out in town, for
quick stops.

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 18:27:14 -0500, Alan Minyard
> wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:17:19 GMT, "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote:
>
>>On 10/17/03 1:52 PM, in article ,
>>"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course, I don't get spun up about it since I believe that pilots should
>>>> dress like pilots and a flight suit in town (jacket or no) expresses a
>>>> positive image to the public.
>>>
>>> Maybe the flight suits of the Blue Angels or the Thunderbirds. I know
>>> the flight suits worn by any number of the pilots in the squadrons I
>>> served in would express anything *but* a "positive image to the
>>> public", were they to be seen in them off-base.
>>>
>>> OJ III
>>> [Maj Foo, my OpsO, to Maj Bar, a Wing pogue assigned to fly with us to
>>> maintain currency, "'Slick', when are you gonna survey that flight
>>> suit? I'm ashamed to be seen on the flight line walking out to the
>>> aircraft with you. The plane captains don't want you /sitting/ in
>>> their aircraft, much less flying them. Maintenance Control wants me
>>> to bring the book to you to sign the bird out and in, so you won't
>>> have to enter their shack. ... ... ..."]
>>
>>Strictly referring to the uniform itself (or organizational clothing for you
>>purists): When I go to the grocery store in my flight suit, I am
>>immediately recognized as a pilot by the public. Since 9/11, OEF, and OIF,
>>it expresses a positive image to the public because they know it's my
>>business clothes.
>>
>>If you're referring to the overall condition of the garment, that's a matter
>>of personal responsibility and command leadership (i.e., the XO needs to
>>pound a few heads and rattle the supply folks).
>>
>>If it's good enough to get shot at in, it's good enough to wear to
>>McDonalds.
>>
>>--Woody
>
>Then why can't the Enlisted folks wear their dungarees off base??
>
>Al Minyard