Marine Corps or Navy

[[email protected]]

I am interested in pursuing a career in the Navy or Marine Corps,
quite possibly as an Aviation officer. I recently met with a former
Army officer, and he was telling me about parts of a military career
that I didn't know about. For example, he mentioned that you can
become a "military attache" in another country. He also mentioned
embassy duties and working in the Pentagon. How hard are these kind of
tours to get? Is there a difference Navy vs. Marines?

My other question was, in your experience, do the Naval Academy grads
fly up the ranks faster than the NROTC guys (or OCS)?

I'm not fit enough to be a Marine right now, but if I decide I want to
go down that path, I will start to get into shape. Any other things
that I should think about? My reason for asking is I need to check the
Marine or Navy box on the NROTC application, and if I feel like I want
to be a Marine, a few other important college options would open up
for me.

Thanks!

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/21/03 2:46 PM, in article
, "
> wrote:

> I am interested in pursuing a career in the Navy or Marine Corps,
> quite possibly as an Aviation officer. I recently met with a former
> Army officer, and he was telling me about parts of a military career
> that I didn't know about. For example, he mentioned that you can
> become a "military attache" in another country. He also mentioned
> embassy duties and working in the Pentagon. How hard are these kind of
> tours to get? Is there a difference Navy vs. Marines?
>

Keep in mind that these things he's telling you about are jobs you can apply
for once you are in the military. You don't just say, "I'd like to do
that." And then go there. You are assigned.

Also, keep in mind, you're talking to an Army officer about Navy or Marine
Corps career paths which are quite different. For instance, as a pilot, you
wouldn't necessarily go to an attache job until you either (a) elect to or
(b) are forced into a "twilight" tour. Other than that, most pilots *try*
to stay in the cockpit because they love to fly, the the really good ones,
never leave the cockpit.

> My other question was, in your experience, do the Naval Academy grads
> fly up the ranks faster than the NROTC guys (or OCS)?
>

No, Boat School guys don't necessarily rise to the top faster. Sometimes
higher when nepotism is the only tie-breaker, but definitely not faster.
The easiest way to a commission is NROTC. The most fool-proof way to get
the job you want (at least it used to be) is AOCS, because USNA and NROTC
dudes don't necessarily get guaranteed aviation until they graduate. As an
AOCS guy, as long as I physically qualified, I had a pilot slot upon
graduation 14 weeks later... in writing.

> I'm not fit enough to be a Marine right now, but if I decide I want to
> go down that path, I will start to get into shape. Any other things
> that I should think about? My reason for asking is I need to check the
> Marine or Navy box on the NROTC application, and if I feel like I want
> to be a Marine, a few other important college options would open up
> for me.
>
> Thanks!

Start now. Being in shape--i.e. no gut and being able to repeat 6:00 miles
makes life easier for you. Granted, it's not required, but it will take
some stress off once you get there.

Keep in mind also, that only about 10-15% (roughly) of a shrinking USMC
aviation program is jets. It's more like 35-40% of the Navy
program--especially with the demise of the maritime patrol community. The
Navy is your better percentage bet if you want to fly jets.

--Woody

[Ogden Johnson III]

wrote:


>I'm not fit enough to be a Marine right now, but if I decide I want to
>go down that path, I will start to get into shape. Any other things
>that I should think about?

That if you're not fit enough to be a Marine right now, you're
probably not fit enough to go Navy, either. If you want to go
aviation, the better shape you're in the better. [And even if you
don't get aviation, the Navy doesn't need out-of-shape ground {ship?}
officers any more than the Marine Corps does.]

>My reason for asking is I need to check the
>Marine or Navy box on the NROTC application, and if I feel like I want
>to be a Marine, a few other important college options would open up
>for me.

That's a first IME; that going Marine would offer *more* options,
important ones at that. In my days, the Navy always seemed to get the
better end of the stick. ;->
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

[vincent p. norris]

>......as a pilot, you wouldn't necessarily go to an attache job until you either (a) elect to or
>(b) are forced into a "twilight" tour. Other than that, most pilots *try*
>to stay in the cockpit because they love to fly, the the really good ones,
>never leave the cockpit.

When I was in the marines, way back in the 1950s, an enlisted pilot in
my squadron, M.Sgt Benny Phipps, had done a tour as a pilot at an
embassy in Europe--I forget which one. He flew the ambassador around.

But you have to keep in mind that only an infinitessimal percentage of
pilots will get such duty.

vince norris

[ian maclure]

In article >, "dgray0310"
> wrote:

[snip]

> I'm not fit enough to be a Marine right now, but if I decide I want to
> go down that path, I will start to get into shape. Any other things

[snip]

Hey, if you aren't in shape, believe me the Marines will cure
that particular problem.

IBM

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[Fred J. McCall]

"ian maclure" > wrote:

:In article >, "dgray0310"
> wrote:
:
: [snip]
:
:> I'm not fit enough to be a Marine right now, but if I decide I want to
:> go down that path, I will start to get into shape. Any other things
:
: [snip]
:
: Hey, if you aren't in shape, believe me the Marines will cure
: that particular problem.

Or you.


--
"Rule Number One for Slayers - Don't die."
-- Buffy, the Vampire Slayer

[David Phillips]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 21:07:46 GMT, "Doug \"Woody\" and Erin Beal"
> wrote:

>On 10/21/03 2:46 PM, in article
, "
> wrote:
>

>
>> My other question was, in your experience, do the Naval Academy grads
>> fly up the ranks faster than the NROTC guys (or OCS)?
>>
>
>No, Boat School guys don't necessarily rise to the top faster. Sometimes
>higher when nepotism is the only tie-breaker, but definitely not faster.
>The easiest way to a commission is NROTC. The most fool-proof way to get
>the job you want (at least it used to be) is AOCS, because USNA and NROTC
>dudes don't necessarily get guaranteed aviation until they graduate. As an
>AOCS guy, as long as I physically qualified, I had a pilot slot upon
>graduation 14 weeks later... in writing.

Just to pick a nit ... would it be more accurate to say that you had a
slot in flight school, rather than a 'pilot slot', upon graduation?

There is a non-zero washout rate from just about any specialty
training.

[[email protected]]

> >I'm not fit enough to be a Marine right now, but if I decide I want to
> >go down that path, I will start to get into shape. Any other things
> >that I should think about?
>
> That if you're not fit enough to be a Marine right now, you're
> probably not fit enough to go Navy, either. If you want to go
> aviation, the better shape you're in the better. [And even if you
> don't get aviation, the Navy doesn't need out-of-shape ground {ship?}
> officers any more than the Marine Corps does.]


Is that really the case? I'm easily fit enough for the Naval PRTs, but
I hear that the Marines are much harder. I heard they do 15-mile "joy
runs" and that kind of thing... probably couldn't do that.

>
> >My reason for asking is I need to check the
> >Marine or Navy box on the NROTC application, and if I feel like I want
> >to be a Marine, a few other important college options would open up
> >for me.
>
> That's a first IME; that going Marine would offer *more* options,
> important ones at that. In my days, the Navy always seemed to get the
> better end of the stick. ;->

Well, the Marines have that PLC program, which makes life easier if
your school doesn't have NROTC. Granted, my firts two choices due, but
there's a chance I don't get in there.

Thanks,

Jason

[[email protected]]

> Keep in mind also, that only about 10-15% (roughly) of a shrinking USMC
> aviation program is jets. It's more like 35-40% of the Navy
> program--especially with the demise of the maritime patrol community. The
> Navy is your better percentage bet if you want to fly jets.

Is there any actual idea when the Navy, Air Force and Marines are
going to get these F-something Joint Strike Fighters? And also, when
are they going to start training pilots on them?

[Ogden Johnson III]

wrote:

>> That if you're not fit enough to be a Marine right now, you're
>> probably not fit enough to go Navy, either. If you want to go
>> aviation, the better shape you're in the better. [And even if you
>> don't get aviation, the Navy doesn't need out-of-shape ground {ship?}
>> officers any more than the Marine Corps does.]

>Is that really the case? I'm easily fit enough for the Naval PRTs, but
>I hear that the Marines are much harder. I heard they do 15-mile "joy
>runs" and that kind of thing... probably couldn't do that.

Not until you're well out in gruntland. I'm a little out of date on
the PRT/PFT, and they're doing crunches instead of sit-up nowadays,
but IIRC [and remember, I never took this particular form PRT/PFT
until I was in my late 20s] a 3-mile run in under 20 minutes, 80-100
sit-ups, and a dozen/dozen-and-a-half pull-ups would have done you
good in my day. [They were not "kipless" pull-ups. Kipping was
rampant in my day. ;->]

What killed me every other day in boot camp was that damned "twice or
three times around the parade deck" at oh-dark-hundred, 5 minutes
after reveille. ;-> [The rifle exercises on alternate days were a
piece of cake.]

>> >My reason for asking is I need to check the
>> >Marine or Navy box on the NROTC application, and if I feel like I want
>> >to be a Marine, a few other important college options would open up
>> >for me.
>>
>> That's a first IME; that going Marine would offer *more* options,
>> important ones at that. In my days, the Navy always seemed to get the
>> better end of the stick. ;->

>Well, the Marines have that PLC program, which makes life easier if
>your school doesn't have NROTC. Granted, my firts two choices due, but
>there's a chance I don't get in there.

*But*, PLC does, AIUI, have an aviation guarantee, if you're
physically/mentally qualified and accepted. [Guaranteed that you'll
be ordered to flight training after TBS. After that, it's in your
hands whether or not you get wings.]
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

[Thomas Schoene]

> wrote in message
om
> > Keep in mind also, that only about 10-15% (roughly) of a shrinking
> > USMC aviation program is jets. It's more like 35-40% of the Navy
> > program--especially with the demise of the maritime patrol
> > community. The Navy is your better percentage bet if you want to
> > fly jets.
>
> Is there any actual idea when the Navy, Air Force and Marines are
> going to get these F-something Joint Strike Fighters? And also, when
> are they going to start training pilots on them?

The first aircraft will begin delievring around 2005-06. But that's for
testing -- only experienced pilots will be flying them at that point.
Initial Operating Capability (roughly when the operating force has enough
aircraft for a full operational squadron) comes about five years later. For
the Marine Corp's F-35B STOVL JSF, that's 2010, followed by the Air Force's
F-35A in 2011 and the Navy's F-35C in 2012. Operational pilots might see
some planes somewhat earlier than that to begin working up the first
squadron.

Of course, that assumes no program slippage between now and IOC. If you
believe that, I've got a very nice piece of Florida waterfront property for
sale.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[scott s.]

wrote in sci.military.naval:

> I am interested in pursuing a career in the Navy or Marine Corps,
> quite possibly as an Aviation officer. I recently met with a
> former Army officer, and he was telling me about parts of a
> military career that I didn't know about. For example, he
> mentioned that you can become a "military attache" in another
> country. He also mentioned embassy duties and working in the
> Pentagon. How hard are these kind of tours to get? Is there a
> difference Navy vs. Marines?

When I came in there were a lot of guys trying to "game the system"
deciding whether to go USN or USMC based on the probability of
getting into flight school. You didn't have to commit to Marines
until your junior year.

As far as commissioning source effect on promotion: none.
As far as working in the Pentagon, some try hard to avoid it at
all costs, some try to get there. It generally is considered
valuable, or maybe mandatory to Captains. Naval attache is pretty
hard to get, more luck than anything else (you have to be in the
right place at the right time).

scott s.
..

[R]

"Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> >> That if you're not fit enough to be a Marine right now, you're
> >> probably not fit enough to go Navy, either. If you want to go
> >> aviation, the better shape you're in the better. [And even if you
> >> don't get aviation, the Navy doesn't need out-of-shape ground {ship?}
> >> officers any more than the Marine Corps does.]
>
> >Is that really the case? I'm easily fit enough for the Naval PRTs, but
> >I hear that the Marines are much harder. I heard they do 15-mile "joy
> >runs" and that kind of thing... probably couldn't do that.
>
> Not until you're well out in gruntland. I'm a little out of date on
> the PRT/PFT, and they're doing crunches instead of sit-up nowadays,
> but IIRC [and remember, I never took this particular form PRT/PFT
> until I was in my late 20s] a 3-mile run in under 20 minutes, 80-100
> sit-ups, and a dozen/dozen-and-a-half pull-ups would have done you
> good in my day. [They were not "kipless" pull-ups. Kipping was
> rampant in my day. ;->]
>
> What killed me every other day in boot camp was that damned "twice or
> three times around the parade deck" at oh-dark-hundred, 5 minutes
> after reveille. ;-> [The rifle exercises on alternate days were a
> piece of cake.]
>
> >> >My reason for asking is I need to check the
> >> >Marine or Navy box on the NROTC application, and if I feel like I want
> >> >to be a Marine, a few other important college options would open up
> >> >for me.
> >>
> >> That's a first IME; that going Marine would offer *more* options,
> >> important ones at that. In my days, the Navy always seemed to get the
> >> better end of the stick. ;->
>
> >Well, the Marines have that PLC program, which makes life easier if
> >your school doesn't have NROTC. Granted, my firts two choices due, but
> >there's a chance I don't get in there.
>
> *But*, PLC does, AIUI, have an aviation guarantee, if you're
> physically/mentally qualified and accepted. [Guaranteed that you'll
> be ordered to flight training after TBS. After that, it's in your
> hands whether or not you get wings.]
> --
> OJ III
> [Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
> Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

From a recent conversation with my-son-in-law who is stationed at TBS (The
Basic School) at Quantico I believe the goal is every Officer Canidate has
to run all distances at a rete of 8 minutes a mile or less. The PFT run is
3 miles. I believe the the goal is to score 225 points + out of a possiable
300 points. The three mile run in 18 minutes is 100 points, and 28 minutes
(the maximum) 40 points. Pull-ups are 5 points each, with 4 being minimum.
Crunches I think are one point each with 40 minimum. (I am fairly confident
of these figures). But the minimum will not let you graduate from TBS. IIRC
I believe he said the longest timed run was 7 miles, and it was in PT gear.
However they do, forced marches with uniform, weapon, and equipment, of
longer distances. And they have the infamous "Hill Trail". I believe he also
said that group runs (either in PT gear or uniform) were at a slower pace,
due to the need to keep formation.

Red

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/22/03 7:16 AM, in article ,
"David Phillips" > wrote:

>
> Just to pick a nit ... would it be more accurate to say that you had a
> slot in flight school, rather than a 'pilot slot', upon graduation?
>
> There is a non-zero washout rate from just about any specialty
> training.
>

Pick a nit if you like. To be totally accurate:

I had a Student Naval Aviator quota--(i.e. not SNFO, AI or AMDO) *IF* I was
physically qualified for it. What I was able to do in flight school is
entirely another row of corn, but I personally never considered failure (or
washing out) as an option.

--Woody

[Doug \Woody\ and Erin Beal]

On 10/22/03 2:17 PM, in article
, "
> wrote:

>> Keep in mind also, that only about 10-15% (roughly) of a shrinking USMC
>> aviation program is jets. It's more like 35-40% of the Navy
>> program--especially with the demise of the maritime patrol community. The
>> Navy is your better percentage bet if you want to fly jets.
>
> Is there any actual idea when the Navy, Air Force and Marines are
> going to get these F-something Joint Strike Fighters? And also, when
> are they going to start training pilots on them?

That's for somebody in this group that actually tracks that program...

Let me just ask you this: Is this "I wanna be a pilot" thing just a passing
fancy for you? I have to question the motivation of a guy who refers to the
F-35 as "F-something." Not trying to beat on you... Just asking for an
honest self-assessment.

Did you just wake up a week ago and decide that this year might be a good
year to try to become a Naval Aviator?

If so, consider carefully. Military flight programs are no piece of cake,
and those with low motivation tend to be those that get canned from the
program.

--Woody

[Ogden Johnson III]

"R" > wrote:

>From a recent conversation with my-son-in-law who is stationed at TBS (The
>Basic School) at Quantico I believe the goal is every Officer Canidate has
>to run all distances at a rete of 8 minutes a mile or less. The PFT run is
>3 miles. I believe the the goal is to score 225 points + out of a possiable
>300 points. The three mile run in 18 minutes is 100 points, and 28 minutes
>(the maximum) 40 points. Pull-ups are 5 points each, with 4 being minimum.
>Crunches I think are one point each with 40 minimum. (I am fairly confident
>of these figures). But the minimum will not let you graduate from TBS. IIRC
>I believe he said the longest timed run was 7 miles, and it was in PT gear.
>However they do, forced marches with uniform, weapon, and equipment, of
>longer distances. And they have the infamous "Hill Trail". I believe he also
>said that group runs (either in PT gear or uniform) were at a slower pace,
>due to the need to keep formation.

Thanks, Red. It is amazing how much slips your mind in 20 years, and
I couldn't find the current PFT requirements on the USMC web site.
They're probably there, but buried deep.

Minimum score for passing at 3rd class, and for making 2nd and 1st
class, vary by age. And whatever your age, you'll need to pick up
points for total score among the individual events, whose minimums, in
total, are short of the 3rd class minimum score requirement. e.g., if
you manage only the minimum required for your age in pull-ups, you'll
have to do more than the minimum in sit-ups^Wcrunches and/or the run
for your age to pick up the points you need to pass.
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

[Fred J. McCall]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

:For
:the Marine Corp's F-35B STOVL JSF, that's 2010, followed by the Air Force's
:F-35A in 2011 and the Navy's F-35C in 2012. Operational pilots might see
:some planes somewhat earlier than that to begin working up the first
:squadron.

The Marines are getting theirs first now? When did that happen? Was
that the several hundred million that USAF 'misplaced' behind that?

:Of course, that assumes no program slippage between now and IOC. If you
:believe that, I've got a very nice piece of Florida waterfront property for
:sale.

I've heard there are already budget problems. Any surprise there?


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[ZZBunker]

"scott s." > wrote in message >...
> wrote in sci.military.naval:
>
> > I am interested in pursuing a career in the Navy or Marine Corps,
> > quite possibly as an Aviation officer. I recently met with a
> > former Army officer, and he was telling me about parts of a
> > military career that I didn't know about. For example, he
> > mentioned that you can become a "military attache" in another
> > country. He also mentioned embassy duties and working in the
> > Pentagon. How hard are these kind of tours to get? Is there a
> > difference Navy vs. Marines?
>
> When I came in there were a lot of guys trying to "game the system"
> deciding whether to go USN or USMC based on the probability of
> getting into flight school. You didn't have to commit to Marines
> until your junior year.
>
> As far as commissioning source effect on promotion: none.
> As far as working in the Pentagon, some try hard to avoid it at
> all costs, some try to get there. It generally is considered
> valuable, or maybe mandatory to Captains. Naval attache is pretty
> hard to get, more luck than anything else (you have to be in the
> right place at the right time).

Naval attache is not hard to get. Since the only
requirement is that you can't be a CIA agent.

>
> scott s.
> .

[vincent p. norris]

>The Marines are getting theirs first now? When did that happen?

Astonishing! As O.J. said a day or two ago, the marines always seem
to get the short end of the stick.

For a time, when I was in the marines, 50 years ago, I flew airplanes
that had olive-drab paint under the blue, visible where the blue had
worn off. I took it for granted that the army air corps had given
them to the marines after they had worn them out.

vince norris

[R]

"vincent p. norris" > wrote in message
...
> >The Marines are getting theirs first now? When did that happen?
>
> Astonishing! As O.J. said a day or two ago, the marines always seem
> to get the short end of the stick.
>
> For a time, when I was in the marines, 50 years ago, I flew airplanes
> that had olive-drab paint under the blue, visible where the blue had
> worn off. I took it for granted that the army air corps had given
> them to the marines after they had worn them out.
>
> vince norris

The Marines get theirs first as part of a deal worked out first with the
Navy and then with the Air Force. Part of the deal with the Navy was not to
spend aircraft money on new Harriers, or getting the F-18-E/F. This lets
the Navy get the F-18 E/F faster.

In turn the Navy and Marines then made a deal with the Air Force to provide
funds earlier to speed development of the F-35 program (actually more like
allowing it to remain on schedule), with the F-35B production being speeded
up.

Of course I have nothing to back this up except conversations at the O'Club.

[vincent p. norris]

>Of course I have nothing to back this up except conversations at the O'Club.

Probably a more trustworty source of info than any official
pronouncements out of Washington.

vince norris

[Mike M.]

Here are the figures for a PFT:

Run 3 miles: 18 minutes is a perfect 100 points. Every 10 seconds more is
1 point less. So if you run 23 minutes, you scored a 70 of 100.

Pullups: 5 points each, 20 is perfect for 100 points. And these are
dead-hang pullups, arms fully extended each rep and no body language.

Crunches: 1 point each, 100 is perfect.

Add em up to 300. 220 or is it 225 is a "First Class" I would imagine
officers are expected to be much much higher than this. Age comes into play
at 27, the scores are a little more lenient. But when I was in A-school in
Pensacola, I never saw an officer that couldnt outrun jackrabbits or do tons
of effort-less pullups. I sure as hell have never seen a pilot less than
herculean.

I forget the time frame but I believe their basic was 3 months just like
enlisted but the TBS was 8-9 months as opposed to our MCT (combat training
for non-infantry) was 3 weeks. So in total, your minimum basic training
will be almost a year. And that's before you go to your A-school to learn
the job you'll do. Dont know the numbers for Navy but I believe them to be
much, much shorter. So do you want to spend a year learning how to drill,
land navigation, water purification, squad tactics and fill out paperwork?
Or would you rather just get it over with and start working?

Also, you'll have to talk to an officer to get the full story, but I do
believe USMC officers have 2 jobs at all times. One is your main job (like
pilot) and other is something green side. Again, just something to ask
someone else. I believe it is a big difference between MC officer and the
others as far as that goes.

And as far as quality of life, oh I'd have to vote Navy or MC 10x over.
Just look at the location of the bases. That should tell you enough. It
depends on what you're looking for though. As far as selection of jets,
bases, assignments - Navy. I only know enlisted but as far as rate of
promotion, Navy once more.

As any active duty or prior military would tell you, dont listen to these
recruiters, advertisements, pamphlets, magazine articles, whatever. Find
out the truth from those within. It's a huge committment and they are very
good at making you see what they want you to see. Gotta weigh in the total
picture. Wish I could tell you more but I only know what little I know.




"R" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Ogden Johnson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> > wrote:
> >
> > >> That if you're not fit enough to be a Marine right now, you're
> > >> probably not fit enough to go Navy, either. If you want to go
> > >> aviation, the better shape you're in the better. [And even if you
> > >> don't get aviation, the Navy doesn't need out-of-shape ground {ship?}
> > >> officers any more than the Marine Corps does.]
> >
> > >Is that really the case? I'm easily fit enough for the Naval PRTs, but
> > >I hear that the Marines are much harder. I heard they do 15-mile "joy
> > >runs" and that kind of thing... probably couldn't do that.
> >
> > Not until you're well out in gruntland. I'm a little out of date on
> > the PRT/PFT, and they're doing crunches instead of sit-up nowadays,
> > but IIRC [and remember, I never took this particular form PRT/PFT
> > until I was in my late 20s] a 3-mile run in under 20 minutes, 80-100
> > sit-ups, and a dozen/dozen-and-a-half pull-ups would have done you
> > good in my day. [They were not "kipless" pull-ups. Kipping was
> > rampant in my day. ;->]
> >
> > What killed me every other day in boot camp was that damned "twice or
> > three times around the parade deck" at oh-dark-hundred, 5 minutes
> > after reveille. ;-> [The rifle exercises on alternate days were a
> > piece of cake.]
> >
> > >> >My reason for asking is I need to check the
> > >> >Marine or Navy box on the NROTC application, and if I feel like I
want
> > >> >to be a Marine, a few other important college options would open up
> > >> >for me.
> > >>
> > >> That's a first IME; that going Marine would offer *more* options,
> > >> important ones at that. In my days, the Navy always seemed to get
the
> > >> better end of the stick. ;->
> >
> > >Well, the Marines have that PLC program, which makes life easier if
> > >your school doesn't have NROTC. Granted, my firts two choices due, but
> > >there's a chance I don't get in there.
> >
> > *But*, PLC does, AIUI, have an aviation guarantee, if you're
> > physically/mentally qualified and accepted. [Guaranteed that you'll
> > be ordered to flight training after TBS. After that, it's in your
> > hands whether or not you get wings.]
> > --
> > OJ III
> > [Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
> > Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]
>
> From a recent conversation with my-son-in-law who is stationed at TBS (The
> Basic School) at Quantico I believe the goal is every Officer Canidate has
> to run all distances at a rete of 8 minutes a mile or less. The PFT run
is
> 3 miles. I believe the the goal is to score 225 points + out of a
possiable
> 300 points. The three mile run in 18 minutes is 100 points, and 28 minutes
> (the maximum) 40 points. Pull-ups are 5 points each, with 4 being minimum.
> Crunches I think are one point each with 40 minimum. (I am fairly
confident
> of these figures). But the minimum will not let you graduate from TBS.
IIRC
> I believe he said the longest timed run was 7 miles, and it was in PT
gear.
> However they do, forced marches with uniform, weapon, and equipment, of
> longer distances. And they have the infamous "Hill Trail". I believe he
also
> said that group runs (either in PT gear or uniform) were at a slower pace,
> due to the need to keep formation.
>
> Red
>
>
>
>
>

[Ogden Johnson III]

"Mike M." > wrote:

>Here are the figures for a PFT:

[Skipped]

>I forget the time frame but I believe their basic was 3 months just like
>enlisted but the TBS was 8-9 months as opposed to our MCT (combat training
>for non-infantry) was 3 weeks. So in total, your minimum basic training
>will be almost a year. And that's before you go to your A-school to learn
>the job you'll do. Dont know the numbers for Navy but I believe them to be
>much, much shorter. So do you want to spend a year learning how to drill,
>land navigation, water purification, squad tactics and fill out paperwork?
>Or would you rather just get it over with and start working?

Enlisted training has varied over the past 50+ years in durations, if
not concepts - shorter during VN, longer before and after. Now it is,
sort of, back to pre-VN structure. 12-week training curriculum + a
"Zero week" of 3-7 days depending on time of year/training load at the
MCRDs for screening, shots, etc. Followed by a four-week "infantry"
training course for Marines of all MOSs [that "Every Marine is a
rifleman" thing - in the late-50s/early-60s it was called ITR] before
going on boot leave and then on to their "A" school MOS training. [The
03s {grunts} now have an "A" school of their own, the School of
Infantry. In my day, their post-ITR training was at the tender
mercies of their Company Gunny, Platoon Sgt, and Squad and Fire-Team
leaders.]

Officers training varies by source of accession. For the Academies
it's the minimum, I believe one "Bulldog" summer for Juniors who have
indicated a desire for the Marine option. [Their boot camp was plebe
year.] N/ROTC Marine options and PLCs have two 6-week summer periods,
usually after the sophomore and junior year, of OCS-type training.
OCS, of course, does the three months/12-weeks straight.

TBS was longer, that 9 months you mentioned, pre-VN. It is now a
six-month course - as before, for all newly commissioned Marine
2ndLts. [There's a corresponding WO Basic course for all newly
selected/promoted WOs.]

>Also, you'll have to talk to an officer to get the full story, but I do
>believe USMC officers have 2 jobs at all times. One is your main job (like
>pilot) and other is something green side. Again, just something to ask
>someone else. I believe it is a big difference between MC officer and the
>others as far as that goes.

All squadron pilots will have another, ground-side, duty. From CO,
XO, OpsO, down to TrngO, AvionicsO, and FltLineO. [The key thing is,
multi-piloted aircraft have more pilots, and therefore all those SLJO
{HumRelO, SqdnHistoryO, etc.} assignments that are in addition to
their primary ground duty are split among more bodies, 30 or so in a
helo squadron compared to the 16 we had in VMA-231. ;->] There are a
few specialist WOs/LDOs around for technical expertise. Few, if any,
pilots in the USMC have flying as their sole duty - I know I never
met/heard of any. And I have no reason for thinking the Navy operates
any differently on that score. Or the Army or Air Force, for that
matter.
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

[Thomas Schoene]

"dano" > wrote in message

> In article >,
> vincent p. norris > wrote:
> > For a time, when I was in the marines, 50 years ago, I flew
> > airplanes that had olive-drab paint under the blue, visible where
> > the blue had worn off. I took it for granted that the army air
> > corps had given them to the marines after they had worn them out.
>
> Aren't the Marine AH-1 helicopters handed down from the Army?

Only in general design. The Sea Cobras were new built for the Marines (and
rebuilt and rebuilt again). Compared to the Army Cobras, there are many
differneces including such basic things as the number of engines (Marine
Cobras have two, Army Cobras had one).

> And when the Air Force tried to drop all the A-10s during GW1, didn't
> the Marines volunteer to take them?

Not to the best of my knowledge. Many rumors fly about this, though, and
it's nearly impossible to sort out the facts since nothing ever got past the
back room discussion stage.

--�
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[Leanne]

> > And when the Air Force tried to drop all the A-10s during GW1, didn't
> > the Marines volunteer to take them?
>
> Not to the best of my knowledge. Many rumors fly about this, though, and
> it's nearly impossible to sort out the facts since nothing ever got past the
> back room discussion stage.

That is like when the C-117 was going to the bone yard, the Marine Corps was
going to replace them with the C-7, possibly a turbine version. Somehow they
must have shrunk in the rain, because they looked a lot like a C-12 to me.

Leanne

[Fred J. McCall]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote:

:"dano" > wrote in message

:>
:> And when the Air Force tried to drop all the A-10s during GW1, didn't
:> the Marines volunteer to take them?
:
:Not to the best of my knowledge. Many rumors fly about this, though, and
:it's nearly impossible to sort out the facts since nothing ever got past the
:back room discussion stage.

My understanding was that the Air Force wanted to free up the funding
in the A-10 program for more fast movers, so they offered them to the
ARMY, saying they would allow an exception to the prohibition on armed
fixed wing assets in the Army. The Army figured out it could fund
either the A-10 acquisition or the AH-64, and they wanted the Apache
more.


--
"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."
-- Charles Pinckney

[Dave in San Diego]

dano > wrote in news:dano45-E8A807.18002228102003
@lumberjack.rand.org:

> In article >,
> vincent p. norris > wrote:
>
>> >The Marines are getting theirs first now? When did that happen?
>>
>> Astonishing! As O.J. said a day or two ago, the marines always seem
>> to get the short end of the stick.
>>
>> For a time, when I was in the marines, 50 years ago, I flew airplanes
>> that had olive-drab paint under the blue, visible where the blue had
>> worn off. I took it for granted that the army air corps had given
>> them to the marines after they had worn them out.
>
> Aren't the Marine AH-1 helicopters handed down from the Army?

Nope, all the current AH-1Ws were new buys, sent straight to USMC. I
teach the maintainers how to fix them.

Dave in San Diego
USN Ret

--
-
"For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward;
For there you have been, and there you long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci

[John Keeney]

"dano" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> vincent p. norris > wrote:
>
> > >The Marines are getting theirs first now? When did that happen?
> >
> > Astonishing! As O.J. said a day or two ago, the marines always seem
> > to get the short end of the stick.
> >
> > For a time, when I was in the marines, 50 years ago, I flew airplanes
> > that had olive-drab paint under the blue, visible where the blue had
> > worn off. I took it for granted that the army air corps had given
> > them to the marines after they had worn them out.
>
> Aren't the Marine AH-1 helicopters handed down from the Army?

No, not even the same number of engines.

[Pechs1]

OJ-<< I know I never
met/heard of any. And I have no reason for thinking the Navy operates
any differently on that score. Or the Army or Air Force, for that
matter. >><BR><BR>

When on USAF exchange, many of the JOs had no other job than to fly.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

[vincent p. norris]

>>Also, you'll have to talk to an officer to get the full story, but I do
>>believe USMC officers have 2 jobs at all times.

>..... Few, if any, pilots in the USMC have flying as their sole duty

When I got my wings in 1951 and joined a squadron at Cherry Point, I
was promptly made the squadron's Navigation Officer and Intelligence
Officer.

I didn't mind; it gave me something to do when not flying, and I
learned a lot.

I can't say for certain that every other pilot in the squadron had
collateral duties, but I think it was the case.

vince norris

[Ogden Johnson III]

vincent p. norris > wrote:

>>>Also, you'll have to talk to an officer to get the full story, but I do
>>>believe USMC officers have 2 jobs at all times.
>
>>..... Few, if any, pilots in the USMC have flying as their sole duty
>
>When I got my wings in 1951 and joined a squadron at Cherry Point, I
>was promptly made the squadron's Navigation Officer and Intelligence
>Officer.

It prolly won't ever, realistically, happen, but I'd welcome the
chance to go back with you, fifty-whatever years after your arrival at
NKT, and my twenty- ... ... ... eight years after arrival, and compare
notes on what it was then, then^2, and now, twenty-plus years after I
left there.

OJ III
[Who suggests that you were lucky that 1951 was *long* before Marine,
or any other service's, squadrons needed a Drug and Alcohol Abuse O,
or SNCO.]
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]

[Joe Osman]

Ogden Johnson III wrote:
>
> "Mike M." > wrote:
>
> >Here are the figures for a PFT:
>
> [Skipped]
>
> >I forget the time frame but I believe their basic was 3 months just like
> >enlisted but the TBS was 8-9 months as opposed to our MCT (combat training
> >for non-infantry) was 3 weeks. So in total, your minimum basic training
> >will be almost a year. And that's before you go to your A-school to learn
> >the job you'll do. Dont know the numbers for Navy but I believe them to be
> >much, much shorter. So do you want to spend a year learning how to drill,
> >land navigation, water purification, squad tactics and fill out paperwork?
> >Or would you rather just get it over with and start working?
>
> Enlisted training has varied over the past 50+ years in durations, if
> not concepts - shorter during VN, longer before and after. Now it is,
> sort of, back to pre-VN structure. 12-week training curriculum + a
> "Zero week" of 3-7 days depending on time of year/training load at the
> MCRDs for screening, shots, etc. Followed by a four-week "infantry"
> training course for Marines of all MOSs [that "Every Marine is a
> rifleman" thing - in the late-50s/early-60s it was called ITR] before
> going on boot leave and then on to their "A" school MOS training. [The
> 03s {grunts} now have an "A" school of their own, the School of
> Infantry. In my day, their post-ITR training was at the tender
> mercies of their Company Gunny, Platoon Sgt, and Squad and Fire-Team
> leaders.]
>
><snip>

In 1970 (8 week boot camp), it was still called ITR
(Infantry Training Regiment), but the O3XX's then went to
BITS (Basic Infantry Training School), then Staging (4
weeks?) then Nam. I don't remember if non-03XXs went through
Staging before Nam or not.

Joe
> --
> OJ III
> [Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
> Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]


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[vincent p. norris]

>It prolly won't ever, realistically, happen, but I'd welcome the
>chance to go back with you...

Are you going to Kitty Hawk in December for the celebration of the
Wright Brothers' first powered flights?

I've been going every year and I'll be there again this year unless
the wx is below mins or there's severe icing between central PA and
NC.

I'll be at "The Man Will Never Fly Memorial Society" banquet in the
Comfort Inn at Nag's Head on Dec. 16, and at the various "happy hours"
after that--but mostly at the Naval Aviation group. I pay my respects
to the others-- the Daedalians, the Air Force, the First Flight
Society-- but they're nice and sedate (boring). The Naval Aviation
party is so much better even some of the Air Force guys end up there.

> but I'd welcome the chance to go back with you, fifty-whatever years
>after your arrival at NKT,

Damn near sixty years. I first arrived there in late summer, 1946,
fresh from Parris Island, and became a radio operator on an R5C-1 in
VMR 252.

I was astonished! No one stuck his nose right up against mine and
yelled at me! And they let me go in town on weekends!

I thought, "I might get to like this!"

>and my twenty- ... ... ... eight years after arrival, and compare
>notes on what it was then, then^2, and now,

I'd be delighted, if you're going to be there. I'll be staying at the
Comfort Inn South, Nag's Head, headquarters of the MWNFMS.

>twenty-plus years after I left there.

I left for the last time in July, 1954.
>
>OJ III
>[Who suggests that you were lucky that 1951 was *long* before Marine,
>or any other service's, squadrons needed a Drug and Alcohol Abuse O,
>or SNCO.]

Right!

vince norris

[Ogden Johnson III]

vincent p. norris > wrote:

>>It prolly won't ever, realistically, happen, but I'd welcome the
>>chance to go back with you...
>
>Are you going to Kitty Hawk in December for the celebration of the
>Wright Brothers' first powered flights?

Sigh. Right when the Navy always wants every piece of assigned work
due by mid-Jan in early, so that they can virtually shut down, like
the rest of the gummint in DC, for XMas/New Years, and a two-week
recovery period. Still, I've saved your post and the idea, in case a
miracle occurs and I somehow get free.
--
OJ III
[Email sent to Yahoo addy is burned before reading.
Lower and crunch the sig and you'll net me at comcast]