Re: Glaze Ice

[Gary Boggs]

How about get a decent weather forecast before you go flying and don't
even think about trying to fly in this kind of weather?

[Tom De Moor]

In article <d3fdfb1b-7f7f-40ae-9735-85b9cb159680
@k18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> How about get a decent weather forecast before you go flying and don't
> even think about trying to fly in this kind of weather?


Correct but we still remain humans who make mistakes.


02/01/2010 Maria Cornelis (76 year of age, 30 years a pilot) took off
from EBUL (Ursel Airport) in Belgium in her own C172 OO-TRB. She was
accompagned by the president of the local flying club, to which she also
belonged. Maria was looked at as expermented and carefull frequent
flyer.

TAF EBOS (Ostend Airport is some 30 NM away) was

METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095
TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012=


8 planes took off that afternoon from EBUL: 5 returned and landed
without problems, 2 landed on another airfield.

OO-TRB crashed around 10 minutes after TO in the woods about 1 km from
EBUL. 2 fatalities.


Tom De Moor

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
>
> In article <d3fdfb1b-7f7f-40ae-9735-85b9cb159680
> @k18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, says...
> >
> > How about get a decent weather forecast before you go flying and don't
> > even think about trying to fly in this kind of weather?
>
>
> Correct but we still remain humans who make mistakes.
>
>
> 02/01/2010 Maria Cornelis (76 year of age, 30 years a pilot) took off
> from EBUL (Ursel Airport) in Belgium in her own C172 OO-TRB. She was
> accompagned by the president of the local flying club, to which she also
> belonged. Maria was looked at as expermented and carefull frequent
> flyer.
>
> TAF EBOS (Ostend Airport is some 30 NM away) was
>
> METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095
> TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012=

OK sure - but one should surely reading something more into that temp
and dew point. Too close for me. What do others think?

--
Duncan.

[Tom De Moor]

In article >,
says...
>
> > METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095
> > TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012=
>
> OK sure - but one should surely reading something more into that temp
> and dew point. Too close for me. What do others think?
>
>
>

SHSNRA

Showers Snow Rain.

In our club are now two camps: 1 person, convinced that dry snow will
not cause freezing ice and all the rest who don't know the differance by
sight between a cloud full of dry snow or freezing rain and who will
chicken out by not flying through.

I am with the rest ;-)

Where is the summer staying?

Tom De Moor

[bildan]

On Feb 2, 7:38*am, Tom De Moor >
wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>
> > > METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095
> > > TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012=
>
> > OK sure - but one should surely reading something more into that temp
> > and dew point. *Too close for me. *What do others think?
>
> SHSNRA
>
> Showers Snow Rain.
>
> In our club are now two camps: 1 person, convinced that dry snow will
> not cause freezing ice and all the rest who don't know the differance by
> sight between a cloud full of dry snow or freezing rain and who will
> chicken out by not flying through.
>
> I am with the rest ;-)
>
> Where is the summer staying?
>
> Tom De Moor

With nearly a lifetime of flying real IFR in light aircraft, I've
found almost all generalities about ice accumulating on aircraft to be
wrong on occasion. Ultimately, you get what you get. If you have a
well thought out escape route, you'll probably survive. If not.....

Examples:

Ice CAN accumulate in clear air. It's usually Graupel but can be just
very light supercooled mist. Neither block visibility enough to be
easily seen from a distance.

The kind of freezing rain described by the first poster is rare but
almost always fatal to an aircraft. As a result there are few 1st
person stories of encounters with freezing rain.

The only real ice removal strategy for aircraft is to find warm air -
FAST. De-Ice equipment just buys a little time. Simply recording
temperature layers while climbing has saved me several times.

Usually, but not always, if the air temperature is -10C or lower,
virtually all supercooled water droplets have already frozen out and
the resulting snow will just bounce off the airplane. I've seen
significant ice at -30C.

Icing is always worse over mountains.

It's amazing how much ice you can pick up flying through a cooling
tower plume.

[Tom De Moor]

In article <138c6dc9-ee47-45c4-8033-6e8906aae222
@g28g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, says...
>
> With nearly a lifetime of flying real IFR in light aircraft, I've
> found almost all generalities about ice accumulating on aircraft to be
> wrong on occasion. Ultimately, you get what you get. If you have a
> well thought out escape route, you'll probably survive. If not.....
>
>

I am with you.

Concerning the accident of 02 jan (EBUL, OO-TRB) the PIC had 30 years of
VFR-experience but how much in marginal VFR, how much in icing
conditions? VFR-pilots - I am one- tend to be 'good weather'-pilots.

We get close to no prolonged icing conditions in our region, so
accidents happened when even carburrettor icing was not detected by the
pilot untill he smashed his (school)Cessna to the ground.

Not pointing a finger: it might happen to any privat pilot but the
person concerned will sure not feel good afterwards.

http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/data/aero/accidents/AA-8-2.pdf

But sometimes it must be admitted that some errors or misconceptions are
very very hard to understand. On top of that: this is the age of you
tube and other video sites...

http://airsafety.info/wp/?p=138

'What's that beeping? I get the plane down quickly...'

Tom De Moor

[et]

>
> Ice CAN accumulate in clear air. *It's usually Graupel but can be just
> very light supercooled mist. *Neither block visibility enough to be
> easily seen from a distance.
>
> The kind of freezing rain described by the first poster is rare but
> almost always fatal to an aircraft. *As a result there are few 1st
> person stories of encounters with freezing rain.

Let me relate an iceing story that happened to me. I was on a cross
country in my PA 140 across the cascades. The weather was clear, the
winds calm. The temp was well below freezing. As I let down on the
west side of the mountains I encountered scattered clouds with light
showers. The temp. was well above freezing. After landing at
Longview I pulled up to the fuel pump to top off the tanks for the
return flight. To my surprise the fuel tanks were covered in ice.
The fuel had retained the cold temps enough to freeze the light rain
showers contacting the tank area. I felt no loss of lift as the rest
of the wing was clear. I wondered what the outcome might have been
with a large leading edge tank.

Ed

[Brian Whatcott]

Like me, You may have missed Rogallo's obit late last year.
He died near the first flight site in North Carolina.
How appropriate!
He gave his Rogallo patents to the Country at the time of Sputnik.

His design gave birth to hang-gliding, ultra lights, powered parachutes,
Light Sport Aircraft and a new birth of enthusiasm for flying (just) in
reach of the average person.

Francis Rogallo - 2009

Brian W

[Private]

"brian whatcott" > wrote in message
...
> Like me, You may have missed Rogallo's obit late last year.
> He died near the first flight site in North Carolina.
> How appropriate!
> He gave his Rogallo patents to the Country at the time of Sputnik.
>
> His design gave birth to hang-gliding, ultra lights, powered parachutes,
> Light Sport Aircraft and a new birth of enthusiasm for flying (just) in
> reach of the average person.
>
> Francis Rogallo - 2009
>
> Brian W

Thank you for this posting, it motivated a search
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/05/us/05rogallo.html

more at
http://www.google.ca/#hl=en&source=hp&q=Francis+Rogallo&btnG=Google+Search&meta=&aq=f&oq=&fp=7564381002806979

Happy landings,

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
>
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> > > METAR EBOS 021550Z 22009KT 8000 FEW020 SCT032 01/M01 Q1017 R08/290095
> > > TEMPO 3000 -SHSNRA BKN012=
> >
> > OK sure - but one should surely reading something more into that temp
> > and dew point. Too close for me. What do others think?
> >
> >
> >
>
> SHSNRA
>
> Showers Snow Rain.

Yeah, but it's broken at 1200'. So I wouldn't be flying in it (who
would?). I'm far more concerned about the possibility of fog and carb
icing due the dew-point and temp. If the WX deteriorated to IMC I'd be
on the ground already.

If the plane and pilots are IMC/IFR (and it was me), I wouldn't fly in
that - not in a 172 with no de-icing.

>
> In our club are now two camps: 1 person, convinced that dry snow will
> not cause freezing ice and all the rest who don't know the differance by
> sight between a cloud full of dry snow or freezing rain and who will
> chicken out by not flying through.
>
> I am with the rest ;-)

I on your side on that.

> Where is the summer staying?

Pretty nice in NZ at the mo, 20C here at present.

--
Duncan.