Another sailplane lost!

[Gary Boggs]

When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?

http://bit.ly/cgioFc

[Tony[_5_]]

On Feb 1, 10:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> http://bit.ly/cgioFc

probably about the same time that there are no more sailplanes left.

[Pat Russell[_2_]]

> When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?

I think your question answers itself.

[sisu1a]

> > When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> I think your question answers itself.

right... if you insist on using poor tiedowns, at least tighten the
sailplane to them. ;)

[JS]

Gary, I thought you enjoyed these things!
Isn't there a photo of you sitting in a wrecked 1-26 which left the
tiedowns at Tonopah?
The obvious culprit on that one: Using open-hooked pull straps for
tiedowns, made worse without wing stands in place.
Jim

On Feb 1, 8:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> http://bit.ly/cgioFc

[[email protected]]

On Feb 1, 1:53*pm, JS > wrote:
> Gary, I thought you enjoyed these things!
> * Isn't there a photo of you sitting in a wrecked 1-26 which left the
> tiedowns at Tonopah?
> The obvious culprit on that one: Using open-hooked pull straps for
> tiedowns, made worse without wing stands in place.
> Jim
>
> On Feb 1, 8:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
>
>
> > When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> >http://bit.ly/cgioFc- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

All kidding aside, a nose tiedown in addition to the usual wing
tiedowns, can make a huge difference.
We tie our 2-33's with 2 on each main, one on each tip, and one on the
nose.
Yes- we lost one due to failure of anchor chain underground before we
learned about redundancy.
And NO JOKES about the tiedowns being worth more than the glider.
Beatcha to it Bill!
UH

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Feb 1, 8:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?

It's sad, but hardly a tragedy.

It's not like going to the moon; we do have the technology and
infrastructure to make more gliders.

Bob K.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Feb 1, 9:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> http://bit.ly/cgioFc

Unconfirmed rumor, but I heard more than one lost in that storm.

[lanebush]

It looks like the tie down ropes did their best but the wind was so
strong it flipped the bird. I had two C-172's and a Cessna 150
flipped during a microburst event in 1998. All of the tie downs held
but the wings twisted as the tails were sheared off. The tails had
the same look as the Blanik's. It amazes me that any glider can
survive very long while tied out. Hangars and trailers sure are nice
if you have them.

[Dave Doe]

In article <71066842-a481-4d7f-b621-
>, says...
>
> When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> http://bit.ly/cgioFc

Don't forget to include trailers too!

http://www.omarama.com/Default.aspx?tabid=382
(search for "trailer" on the page).

--
Duncan.

[Jim[_18_]]

On Feb 1, 8:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> http://bit.ly/cgioFc

Last year my super cub's left wing and struts were destroyed in a wind
storm,
the double tiedowns held the airplane in place for the wind to twist
the wing.

Would have been nice if it had been in the hangar but then a lot of
very nice
gliders were lost in the Barstow hangar fire a while ago.

Jim

[bildan]

On Feb 2, 7:59*am, Jim > wrote:
> On Feb 1, 8:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> >http://bit.ly/cgioFc
>
> Last year my super cub's left wing and struts were destroyed in a wind
> storm,
> the double tiedowns held the airplane in place for the wind to twist
> the wing.
>
> Would have been nice if it had been in the hangar but then a lot of
> very nice
> gliders were lost in the Barstow hangar fire a while ago.
>
> Jim

There's a lot to be learned from the experience at Boulder, CO where
high-wind events often exceed 100 MPH for many hours.

The technique is 6 deeply buried concrete tie down anchors per glider
- nose, tail and two on each wing - one inboard and one outboard. On
flex-winged composite gliders, wing stands are used. The gliders are
oriented 90 degrees to the high-wind direction.

Ropes are at least 1/2" (13mm) high-strength climbing ropes or nylon
straps. The knots are multiple half hitches drawn up tight against
the glider. These knots are so simple anyone can tie them with one
demonstration - and they'll come loose when you want them to. As long
as there is no slack, they won't work loose on their own.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Feb 2, 9:33*am, bildan > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 7:59*am, Jim > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 1, 8:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > > When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> > >http://bit.ly/cgioFc
>
> > Last year my super cub's left wing and struts were destroyed in a wind
> > storm,
> > the double tiedowns held the airplane in place for the wind to twist
> > the wing.
>
> > Would have been nice if it had been in the hangar but then a lot of
> > very nice
> > gliders were lost in the Barstow hangar fire a while ago.
>
> > Jim
>
> There's a lot to be learned from the experience at Boulder, CO where
> high-wind events often exceed 100 MPH for many hours.
>
> The technique is 6 deeply buried concrete tie down anchors per glider
> - nose, tail and two on each wing - one inboard and one outboard. *On
> flex-winged composite gliders, wing stands are used. *The gliders are
> oriented 90 degrees to the high-wind direction.
>
> Ropes are at least 1/2" (13mm) high-strength climbing ropes or nylon
> straps. *The knots are multiple half hitches drawn up tight against
> the glider. *These knots are so simple anyone can tie them with one
> demonstration - and they'll come loose when you want them to. *As long
> as there is no slack, they won't work loose on their own.

I believe the slats inserted into the cyclone fencing surrounding the
Boulder parking bays has also paid an important part.

[Gary Boggs]

I never saw any of the pictures taken of me in the wrecked 1-26. If
you have any could you email them to me?

[bildan]

On Feb 2, 9:40*am, Frank Whiteley > wrote:
> On Feb 2, 9:33*am, bildan > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 2, 7:59*am, Jim > wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 1, 8:32*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
>
> > > > When are we going to quit loosing sailplanes to poor tie downs?
>
> > > >http://bit.ly/cgioFc
>
> > > Last year my super cub's left wing and struts were destroyed in a wind
> > > storm,
> > > the double tiedowns held the airplane in place for the wind to twist
> > > the wing.
>
> > > Would have been nice if it had been in the hangar but then a lot of
> > > very nice
> > > gliders were lost in the Barstow hangar fire a while ago.
>
> > > Jim
>
> > There's a lot to be learned from the experience at Boulder, CO where
> > high-wind events often exceed 100 MPH for many hours.
>
> > The technique is 6 deeply buried concrete tie down anchors per glider
> > - nose, tail and two on each wing - one inboard and one outboard. *On
> > flex-winged composite gliders, wing stands are used. *The gliders are
> > oriented 90 degrees to the high-wind direction.
>
> > Ropes are at least 1/2" (13mm) high-strength climbing ropes or nylon
> > straps. *The knots are multiple half hitches drawn up tight against
> > the glider. *These knots are so simple anyone can tie them with one
> > demonstration - and they'll come loose when you want them to. *As long
> > as there is no slack, they won't work loose on their own.
>
> I believe the slats inserted into the cyclone fencing surrounding the
> Boulder parking bays has also paid an important part.

Yeah, the cyclone fencing helps a lot. They strain out flying debris
and slow the wind a bit. I've been out there when wind borne golf
ball sized rocks were hitting me at knee level.

[John Smith]

> The technique is 6 deeply buried concrete tie down anchors per glider
> - nose, tail and two on each wing - one inboard and one outboard. On
> flex-winged composite gliders, wing stands are used. The gliders are
> oriented 90 degrees to the high-wind direction.

I'll never understand how somebody would tie down a plastic glider
outside rather than put it in the trailer. Rigging a modern glider is a
matter of 10 minutes but possibly worth a couple of thousand dollars.

[JS]

Bugger. Was hoping you'd cough them up!
Another interesting short flight was a friend towing his 1-26 to the
hangar with the technique a lot of Schweizer pilots use:
A short rope attached to the tow release that has a T-handle on the
end.
Nothing much you can do once the glider tries to leave the ground but
let go and run upwind. In this case it did no damage to anything else.
The Tonopah launch out of the tiedowns was lucky, only putting a blue
stripe on Charlie Westerinen's winglet.
A close shave, as Martin Feeg would write in Soaring Australia.
Jim

On Feb 2, 8:56*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> I never saw any of the pictures taken of me in the wrecked 1-26. *If
> you have any could you email them to me?
>
>

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Feb 2, 11:34*am, John Smith > wrote:
> > The technique is 6 deeply buried concrete tie down anchors per glider
> > - nose, tail and two on each wing - one inboard and one outboard. *On
> > flex-winged composite gliders, wing stands are used. *The gliders are
> > oriented 90 degrees to the high-wind direction.
>
> I'll never understand how somebody would tie down a plastic glider
> outside rather than put it in the trailer. Rigging a modern glider is a
> matter of 10 minutes but possibly worth a couple of thousand dollars.

I have to agree that putting it in the trailer would be the most
prudent thing to do. I'd like to be the kind of guy that would
actually do it, but I'm not. After a 5 - 8 hour flight, all I want is
a beer, something to eat, an access point to upload my flight, and
bed. The 1/2 hour required to pull the trailer to the glider, de-rig
and box it, then park the trailer and disconnect it from the truck
seems like a monumental task at the end of the day, especially when it
will be flown the next day, and the next.....

[bildan]

On Feb 2, 12:34*pm, John Smith > wrote:
> > The technique is 6 deeply buried concrete tie down anchors per glider
> > - nose, tail and two on each wing - one inboard and one outboard. *On
> > flex-winged composite gliders, wing stands are used. *The gliders are
> > oriented 90 degrees to the high-wind direction.
>
> I'll never understand how somebody would tie down a plastic glider
> outside rather than put it in the trailer. Rigging a modern glider is a
> matter of 10 minutes but possibly worth a couple of thousand dollars.

Interesting question. If the glider is flown every day, as many at
Boulder are, the wear and tear of daily rig/derig cycles would add up
plus there's the possibility that someone would eventually drop a wing
or worse.

That said, rigging with the best aids is not all that much harder than
working with full covers and 6 ropes. I'm inclined to think putting
the most expensive glass birds back in their trailer each day is the
better choice.

Of course, hangars are the optimum answer. At Boulder, hangars aren't
an option.

[Tony[_5_]]

> I have to agree that putting it in the trailer would be the most
> prudent thing to do. I'd like to be the kind of guy that would
> actually do it, but I'm not. *After a 5 - 8 hour flight, all I want is
> a beer, something to eat, an access point to upload my flight, and
> bed. The 1/2 hour required to pull the trailer to the glider, de-rig
> and box it, then park the trailer and disconnect it from the truck
> seems like a monumental task at the end of the day, especially when it
> will be flown the next day, and the next.....

force your hand. do the safe thing. land out more often.

[Tony V]

Frank Whiteley wrote:

>......The knots are multiple half hitches drawn up tight against
>> the glider.


Always use a Truckers hitch, IMHO:
http://www.ehow.com/video_2355281_tie-truckers-hitch-knot.html

Tony V LS6-b

[Darryl Ramm]

On Feb 2, 4:54*pm, Tony V > wrote:
> Frank Whiteley wrote:
> >......The knots are multiple half hitches drawn up tight against
> >> the glider.
>
> Always use a Truckers hitch, IMHO:http://www.ehow.com/video_2355281_tie-truckers-hitch-knot.html
>
> Tony V LS6-b

What if we don't have a piano?

Darryl

[[email protected]]

The critical, but often neglected aspect of keeping a ship on the
ground, undamaged is to reduce the angle of attack, both while tied
down and during ground handling. This dramatically reduced the load
on the tiedowns, as was very well documented in the old Red Schweizer
Soaring manual.

As a working example, Skylark North in Tehachapi (and formerly the
brutally windy CalCity) has never lost a tied down ship in 40+ years
(and only 1 while being ground handled) in a very windy environment
using this technique. Caracole in CalCity keeps their fleet safe
using this method as well.

Short of a tornado or similar extreme event, properly tied down ships
should never be lost. Of course, "never" is a very long time :)

Creating adequate tiedowns in a landout or safari situation is
problematic but getting the AOA down is not that hard (flaps full
negative, constrained tail dolly, inverted wash buckets, wood, or a
mound of dirt for tailwheel and dig hole for main gear).

I believe the best "combat" landout mode for keeping a glider on the
ground in high winds is to orient the glider 90 degrees to the wind
and expend all resources on keeping the upwind wing on the ground. I
have seen it used to good effect in extreme wave/rotor conditions
using a tractor tire, tiedown kit, rocks, and the pilot's body.

[Gary Boggs]

And another one bites the dust while tied down!

http://bit.ly/btNFm4

[Mike the Strike]

On Feb 3, 10:22*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> And another one bites the dust while tied down!
>
> http://bit.ly/btNFm4

This is possibly the 2-33 of the Prescott Soaring Club that was lost
in the same storm as the California Blanik.

I should note that we have twenty or so gliders tied down under shade
hangars at the Tucson Soaring Club and we haven't had any serious
damage lately.

Mike

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Feb 3, 9:22*am, GARY BOGGS > wrote:
> And another one bites the dust while tied down!

Naw, just a nibble. Jim Phoenix could have that ship flying in a week.

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

wrote:

> I believe the best "combat" landout mode for keeping a glider on the
> ground in high winds is to orient the glider 90 degrees to the wind
> and expend all resources on keeping the upwind wing on the ground. I
> have seen it used to good effect in extreme wave/rotor conditions
> using a tractor tire, tiedown kit, rocks, and the pilot's body.

"orient the glider 90 degrees to the wind and...keep... the upwind wing
on the ground" was what I was taught 'way back when' (in the good old
days learning on 2-33's and 1-26's...and I think it's Great Advice for
low-wingloaded ships. I mean - absent a real tiedown, of course.)

Since then, I've come to believe there's a better approach for
15-meter-span plastic ships. I've used it (when I've had to) in the
Rocky Mountain West since the mid 1980's for my 15-meter-span Zuni. Note
the HUGE CAVEAT (which no lawyer made me put in).

HUGE CAVEAT: This assumes wind from a constant direction!!!

I put the UPwind wing UP.

Short of a wind strong enough to actually lever the ship up and over its
downwind wing (in which case I don't want to be anywhere *near* gliders,
tied down or otherwise!), this is the stable position, as critical
assessment at many windy gliderports will (usually, quickly) show.

The most severe test ever given my ship was on an outlanding at a
deserted airport in a wind exceeding 30 knots, with gusts almost
certainly over 45; while I was waiting for my crew, a chain-reaction
fatal interstate accident happened nearby, induced by blowing dust and
inappropriate driver reactions. Though in July, with ground temps above
90F when I landed, well before sunset, concern over hypothermia induced
me to abandon the ship for the shelter of a fuel truck cab.

Thanks to the zephyr, the most difficult aspect was extracting myself
from the cockpit without damaging the (~5' long, removable)
canopy...which is why I made no attempt to stay with/in the ship after
trekking for a phone. I watched the ship until it got dark; beyond
'floppy-wing-assisted' rocking, it never budged.

YMMV,
Bob W.

[Tony V]

>>>> The knots are multiple half hitches drawn up tight against
>>>> the glider.
>
>>> Always use a Truckers hitch, IMHO:
>>> http://www.ehow.com/video_2355281_tie-truckers-hitch-knot.html
>
>> What if we don't have a piano?
>
> Then use the harpsichord!

Exactly! Then, tie the other end to the wing tie down point. I've found
that harpsichords rarely move in a hurricane.

Tony V